NADAC Forum

2017 Championships => General Championships Discussion => Topic started by: Hmcnokc on August 22, 2017, 04:55:07 AM

Title: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Hmcnokc on August 22, 2017, 04:55:07 AM
Were these sent out for Pre Elite dogs as well?  Thanks!
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on August 22, 2017, 05:01:29 AM
I got one for my DD dog but nothing for my other dog who should be in VH Ex-large.
Linda
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: danforth on August 22, 2017, 05:34:07 AM
We are in medium/vet group.  Cocoa has been jumping in skilled which puts his jump height at 4 inches.  Will that be his jump height at Champs?  I don't remember if there was any way to indicate that on the entry form.

Isabel

Sent from my KFASWI using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: JimmyS. on August 22, 2017, 08:09:21 AM
I'm sure Chris will chime in as soon as he can, but I assume your email just hasn't reached you yet. He has to send them out in batches so he doesn't get flagged as spam. :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Hmcnokc on August 22, 2017, 10:35:14 AM
I received it this morning!!  You were right about batches. :) Thank you!
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Fran on August 22, 2017, 10:46:10 AM
just got mine. So excited to be going for the first time

fran and latte
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Chris Nelson on August 22, 2017, 03:05:34 PM
Everyone should have received them by now, 3PM on Tuesday.

I did get a couple that bounced back to me, so if you haven't received yours then just let me know and I'll bet your email was just entered wrong :)
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Chris Nelson on August 22, 2017, 03:05:55 PM
We are in medium/vet group.  Cocoa has been jumping in skilled which puts his jump height at 4 inches.  Will that be his jump height at Champs?  I don't remember if there was any way to indicate that on the entry form.

Isabel

Sent from my KFASWI using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.

Yup you can jump the same height you always do :)
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: danforth on August 22, 2017, 04:36:23 PM
Thank you Chris.

Isabel
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Foomin Z on August 22, 2017, 08:50:52 PM
The groups email says:

"2) Pre-Elite does not get an extra division for Veteran handler or Veteran Dog.   This wasn't made clear on the entry form as it still asked for that info, but the request for that info was to get your jump height correct, not your competition group."

However, the PREMIUM specifically states in the Pre-elite section:

"If a dog is over 7 on August 1, 2017, then they MUST enter the Veterans division. If a dog is over 10 on the first day of the Championships, then they will be entered into the Double Digit division. Veterans may or may not be split into a different division in Pre- Elite, depending upon entry numbers. If not split, then all dogs jumping at the same height will be scored together."

My double-digit pre-elite dog does not have the double digit group designation in her groups email. She is listed as pre-elite-small. According to the premium, she should be in double-digit vets, even in pre-elite, because no exception was stated in the premium regarding double-digit vets.

Is there still a double-digit vets group in pre-elite, even though 7-10 vets was not split?
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Chris Nelson on August 23, 2017, 08:47:26 AM
The groups email says:

"2) Pre-Elite does not get an extra division for Veteran handler or Veteran Dog.   This wasn't made clear on the entry form as it still asked for that info, but the request for that info was to get your jump height correct, not your competition group."

However, the PREMIUM specifically states in the Pre-elite section:

"If a dog is over 7 on August 1, 2017, then they MUST enter the Veterans division. If a dog is over 10 on the first day of the Championships, then they will be entered into the Double Digit division. Veterans may or may not be split into a different division in Pre- Elite, depending upon entry numbers. If not split, then all dogs jumping at the same height will be scored together."

My double-digit pre-elite dog does not have the double digit group designation in her groups email. She is listed as pre-elite-small. According to the premium, she should be in double-digit vets, even in pre-elite, because no exception was stated in the premium regarding double-digit vets.

Is there still a double-digit vets group in pre-elite, even though 7-10 vets was not split?

The key part there is this line:
"Veterans may or may not be split into a different division in Pre- Elite, depending upon entry numbers."

If we split one group of Pre-Elite with a veterans division than we have to do that for all of them.   And there aren't enough entries in Pre-Elite to make that a reality as we would be taking 4 divisions and turning it into 8.     

I actually am not sure we have ever had enough entries to warrant it, so we will most likely remove that line from next years premium.   I know we didn't split them in 2016 either.
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Foomin Z on August 23, 2017, 11:49:40 AM
The groups email says:

"2) Pre-Elite does not get an extra division for Veteran handler or Veteran Dog.   This wasn't made clear on the entry form as it still asked for that info, but the request for that info was to get your jump height correct, not your competition group."

However, the PREMIUM specifically states in the Pre-elite section:

"If a dog is over 7 on August 1, 2017, then they MUST enter the Veterans division. If a dog is over 10 on the first day of the Championships, then they will be entered into the Double Digit division. Veterans may or may not be split into a different division in Pre- Elite, depending upon entry numbers. If not split, then all dogs jumping at the same height will be scored together."

My double-digit pre-elite dog does not have the double digit group designation in her groups email. She is listed as pre-elite-small. According to the premium, she should be in double-digit vets, even in pre-elite, because no exception was stated in the premium regarding double-digit vets.

Is there still a double-digit vets group in pre-elite, even though 7-10 vets was not split?

The key part there is this line:
"Veterans may or may not be split into a different division in Pre- Elite, depending upon entry numbers."

If we split one group of Pre-Elite with a veterans division than we have to do that for all of them.   And there aren't enough entries in Pre-Elite to make that a reality as we would be taking 4 divisions and turning it into 8.     

I actually am not sure we have ever had enough entries to warrant it, so we will most likely remove that line from next years premium.   I know we didn't split them in 2016 either.

Yet breaking up the definitions to veterans 7-10 and double-digit dogs is clearly defining two different groups, with a disclaimer only mentioning the vet group of 7-10. No disclaimer is mentioned for double-digit vet, so people would interpret that as a certainty that there would be a double-digit vet group in pre-elite. This is why premiums should be as specific as possible, especially for a high-profile event like championships, rather than reusing the same document yearly.

Had I known that exceptions and changes to groups could be made after qualifying period was over, I would not have worked on only qualifying my double-digit vet to run in pre-elite, but to be in the regular championship class. I chose pre-elite for her so she would not have to run the full length champs courses, and for her to fairly compete against dogs like her.
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Chris Nelson on August 23, 2017, 02:53:58 PM
If you would like to move up to the elite level because of the discrepancy I will allow it.
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: dogrsqr on August 23, 2017, 06:01:22 PM
Do what you think is best for your dog.  Experience may win over youth anyway.  Most importantly HAVE FUN!!!!!!

Gina Pizzo

The groups email says:

"2) Pre-Elite does not get an extra division for Veteran handler or Veteran Dog.   This wasn't made clear on the entry form as it still asked for that info, but the request for that info was to get your jump height correct, not your competition group."

However, the PREMIUM specifically states in the Pre-elite section:

"If a dog is over 7 on August 1, 2017, then they MUST enter the Veterans division. If a dog is over 10 on the first day of the Championships, then they will be entered into the Double Digit division. Veterans may or may not be split into a different division in Pre- Elite, depending upon entry numbers. If not split, then all dogs jumping at the same height will be scored together."

My double-digit pre-elite dog does not have the double digit group designation in her groups email. She is listed as pre-elite-small. According to the premium, she should be in double-digit vets, even in pre-elite, because no exception was stated in the premium regarding double-digit vets.

Is there still a double-digit vets group in pre-elite, even though 7-10 vets was not split?

The key part there is this line:
"Veterans may or may not be split into a different division in Pre- Elite, depending upon entry numbers."

If we split one group of Pre-Elite with a veterans division than we have to do that for all of them.   And there aren't enough entries in Pre-Elite to make that a reality as we would be taking 4 divisions and turning it into 8.     

I actually am not sure we have ever had enough entries to warrant it, so we will most likely remove that line from next years premium.   I know we didn't split them in 2016 either.

Yet breaking up the definitions to veterans 7-10 and double-digit dogs is clearly defining two different groups, with a disclaimer only mentioning the vet group of 7-10. No disclaimer is mentioned for double-digit vet, so people would interpret that as a certainty that there would be a double-digit vet group in pre-elite. This is why premiums should be as specific as possible, especially for a high-profile event like championships, rather than reusing the same document yearly.

Had I known that exceptions and changes to groups could be made after qualifying period was over, I would not have worked on only qualifying my double-digit vet to run in pre-elite, but to be in the regular championship class. I chose pre-elite for her so she would not have to run the full length champs courses, and for her to fairly compete against dogs like her.
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: KarissaKS on August 23, 2017, 07:34:03 PM
Had I known that exceptions and changes to groups could be made after qualifying period was over, I would not have worked on only qualifying my double-digit vet to run in pre-elite, but to be in the regular championship class. I chose pre-elite for her so she would not have to run the full length champs courses, and for her to fairly compete against dogs like her.

Double-digit dogs run the same course as Pre-Elite for the rounds that have a shortened course. The only difference is that the Pre-Elite dogs don't get judged in the distance component and the DD dogs do.

Pre-Elite is thought of as the "baby dog" division by most people. I can't imagine there are a large number of double digit Pre-Elite entries since the limitation of 100 Elite Regular points was put into place. If being judged against other DD dogs is of importance to you it sounds like Chris is offering up a great solution to move into the Double-Digit "Elite" class.

Groupings have NEVER been guaranteed or published until after the close of entries. And there has never been an age separation for Pre-Elite.
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Foomin Z on August 24, 2017, 03:15:01 PM

Double-digit dogs run the same course as Pre-Elite for the rounds that have a shortened course. The only difference is that the Pre-Elite dogs don't get judged in the distance component and the DD dogs do.

Pre-Elite is thought of as the "baby dog" division by most people. I can't imagine there are a large number of double digit Pre-Elite entries since the limitation of 100 Elite Regular points was put into place. If being judged against other DD dogs is of importance to you it sounds like Chris is offering up a great solution to move into the Double-Digit "Elite" class.

Groupings have NEVER been guaranteed or published until after the close of entries. And there has never been an age separation for Pre-Elite.
None of this was said in the premium. How should any new person know these things? Sure, the forum is available for asking questions, but one would have to think of asking for every single detail in the first place. Saying things like "this has never happened" or "this is what we did in previous years" is not helpful to someone new who knows nothing about the past.

This is why a championships/nationals premium should be as detailed as possible, and once the rules are written in it, there should be no deviations after publication. Also, rules should be decided and defined  before the qualification period begins. New people can be scared off, or made uninterested in an event, by not knowing ahead of time how to do a thing correctly.
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on August 24, 2017, 05:18:03 PM

Double-digit dogs run the same course as Pre-Elite for the rounds that have a shortened course. The only difference is that the Pre-Elite dogs don't get judged in the distance component and the DD dogs do.

Pre-Elite is thought of as the "baby dog" division by most people. I can't imagine there are a large number of double digit Pre-Elite entries since the limitation of 100 Elite Regular points was put into place. If being judged against other DD dogs is of importance to you it sounds like Chris is offering up a great solution to move into the Double-Digit "Elite" class.

Groupings have NEVER been guaranteed or published until after the close of entries. And there has never been an age separation for Pre-Elite.
None of this was said in the premium. How should any new person know these things? Sure, the forum is available for asking questions, but one would have to think of asking for every single detail in the first place. Saying things like "this has never happened" or "this is what we did in previous years" is not helpful to someone new who knows nothing about the past.

This is why a championships/nationals premium should be as detailed as possible, and once the rules are written in it, there should be no deviations after publication. Also, rules should be decided and defined  before the qualification period begins. New people can be scared off, or made uninterested in an event, by not knowing ahead of time how to do a thing correctly.

Obviously not all possible scenarios can be thought of in advance.  Groupings are dependent on how many dogs qualify/enter at a given height/jump height.   Since Vet Dog/Handler groups and Double Digit are age based, those groups are somewhat set in the Elite division.  I am very thankful to have the information Chris sent out in advance of Champs.   And I very thankful my dogs and I are able to compete at Champs.   I'm sorry you can't see this from my perspective.  =(
Linda
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: mephalon on August 24, 2017, 05:30:36 PM
Well the premium does say ""Veterans may or may not be split into a different division in Pre- Elite, depending upon entry numbers" so anyone reading it knew there may or may not be a split in pre-elite.

Since I run a double digit dog that I was getting qualified in pre-elite I did what I imagined most people would have done- I emailed Chris, explained my specific situation and got clarification right away.  That way I knew exactly what kind of course Rox, as a double digit vet would be running at Champs. 

Chris was amazingly helpful and responsive. 
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: MoabDiane on August 24, 2017, 08:41:13 PM
I've been to many a Champs event - not counting....but lots.

One thing I learned early on - and believe me, this was HARD for me! - was that the absolutely most important thing is to BE FLEXIBLE!
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: MoabDiane on August 24, 2017, 08:45:36 PM
I've been to many Champs (not counting....). And my "word to the newbies" from an oldie is simply:  BE FLEXIBLE!

This was actually a hard thing for me to accept at first - I like my ducks (or in this case, dogs!) in a row, and everything well-planned in advance.
But putting on an event of this nature, this size, with folks and dogs from all over - well, it is a LOT of work.  Stuff happens. 

I'm just happy to be there (when I am), happy my dogs are healthy and running, and hoping for the best.
No, we don't always (well, hardly ever!) win; sometimes it's because of the "groupings;" sometimes it's because (imagine!) I have screwed up; sometimes it's because, well, stuff happens.

If we are grouped with older dogs, younger dogs, taller dogs, shorter dogs, more experienced dogs, less experienced dogs  - and they win - well, huge congrats to them!

My two cents' worth.
If you go, just remember:  you're a heartbeat away from NOT being there and so is your dog.  Enjoy the ride!
diane

Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Sandy Langan on August 25, 2017, 03:26:50 AM
AMEN! Well said Diane. Sandy
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: dogrsqr on August 25, 2017, 05:08:54 AM
I agree well said Diane.

I haven't been to Champs in years but if nothing has changed....... if you can't be flexible you will not enjoy the experience.

Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: dogrsqr on August 25, 2017, 05:14:29 AM
So to get back to the subject line ...... should we all have received this email by now?  I haven't so just wondering.

Thanks
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Chris Nelson on August 25, 2017, 09:01:44 AM
So to get back to the subject line ...... should we all have received this email by now?  I haven't so just wondering.

Thanks

Yup everyone should have received them by now!
If you haven't just let me know and I can resend :)
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: dogrsqr on August 25, 2017, 07:24:26 PM
Thanks Chris.  I have not received it.

Gina pizzo
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Chris Nelson on August 26, 2017, 07:51:38 AM
Thanks Chris.  I have not received it.

Gina pizzo

Just re sent :)
Title: Re: 2017 Championships Group Info Emails
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 28, 2017, 04:45:05 PM
The groups email says:

"2) Pre-Elite does not get an extra division for Veteran handler or Veteran Dog.   This wasn't made clear on the entry form as it still asked for that info, but the request for that info was to get your jump height correct, not your competition group."

However, the PREMIUM specifically states in the Pre-elite section:

"If a dog is over 7 on August 1, 2017, then they MUST enter the Veterans division. If a dog is over 10 on the first day of the Championships, then they will be entered into the Double Digit division. Veterans may or may not be split into a different division in Pre- Elite, depending upon entry numbers. If not split, then all dogs jumping at the same height will be scored together."

My double-digit pre-elite dog does not have the double digit group designation in her groups email. She is listed as pre-elite-small. According to the premium, she should be in double-digit vets, even in pre-elite, because no exception was stated in the premium regarding double-digit vets.

Is there still a double-digit vets group in pre-elite, even though 7-10 vets was not split?

The key part there is this line:
"Veterans may or may not be split into a different division in Pre- Elite, depending upon entry numbers."

If we split one group of Pre-Elite with a veterans division than we have to do that for all of them.   And there aren't enough entries in Pre-Elite to make that a reality as we would be taking 4 divisions and turning it into 8.     

I actually am not sure we have ever had enough entries to warrant it, so we will most likely remove that line from next years premium.   I know we didn't split them in 2016 either.

You are correct, Chris.  We have never split Veterans in Pre-Elite.  We allow them to jump at their lowered jump heights but they don't have a separate division.

Sharon