NADAC Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chris Nelson on June 01, 2018, 02:50:38 PM

Title: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 01, 2018, 02:50:38 PM
Please fast forward to these areas if you would like info on a specific subject:

1:00 = Certified Trainers
4:36 = Play Area
7:22  =Achievement Awards
9:41 = Training in the Ring
12:16 = Grandfathering
15:41 = Misc Small Adjustments


https://youtu.be/gjvTFE9Pzss (https://youtu.be/gjvTFE9Pzss)

Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: ricbonner on June 01, 2018, 04:52:33 PM
standardized premiums = awesome!!
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Foomin Z on June 01, 2018, 06:02:42 PM
Nice slideshow with the video.

For trials that only offer one round of Chances per day: could a person be allowed to enter every level of Chances, in order to work toward the new achievement cups, provided the dog is not entered in any other classes with jumps that day?

I have noticed most trials seem to run the levels elite, then open, then novice. There would be no training opportunity for an elite Q, as there would be if the levels ran the other way. However, a person who fails at elite chances could try again in open to see if their dog would be more successful. And again in novice.

I'm chasing elite chances Qs with my dog. It's all she needs for the NATCH. I am making a point to enter double-run trials just for extra chances at elite chances. There is a weekend this summer where one trial has two rounds of chances on a Saturday, and another trial four hours away from there is having two rounds of chances on Sunday. I will try to go to both. See how desperate I am?

I would be more likely to enter trials with single rounds of chances per day if I could also enter open and novice, in order to work on the new achievement awards. Otherwise, I could be waiting years before I would drop out of elite chances and move to a lower level.

I don't think this would be too different from the swap option I have seen at a couple of trials.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 01, 2018, 07:50:11 PM
Nice slideshow with the video.

For trials that only offer one round of Chances per day: could a person be allowed to enter every level of Chances, in order to work toward the new achievement cups, provided the dog is not entered in any other classes with jumps that day?

I have noticed most trials seem to run the levels elite, then open, then novice. There would be no training opportunity for an elite Q, as there would be if the levels ran the other way. However, a person who fails at elite chances could try again in open to see if their dog would be more successful. And again in novice.

I'm chasing elite chances Qs with my dog. It's all she needs for the NATCH. I am making a point to enter double-run trials just for extra chances at elite chances. There is a weekend this summer where one trial has two rounds of chances on a Saturday, and another trial four hours away from there is having two rounds of chances on Sunday. I will try to go to both. See how desperate I am?

I would be more likely to enter trials with single rounds of chances per day if I could also enter open and novice, in order to work on the new achievement awards. Otherwise, I could be waiting years before I would drop out of elite chances and move to a lower level.

I don't think this would be too different from the swap option I have seen at a couple of trials.
I think the software folks might very well put a hit out on me if we did that!

In all seriousness though,  while I can see the argument that itís no different then entering 3 jumping classes,  I donít feel comfortable opening that bag of worms.   And it would cause a lot of confusion for the trial secretary and gate people.




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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Lynn Broderick on June 01, 2018, 08:03:39 PM
Who do we contact to declare our interest in the certified trainer program?
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Sharon Nelson on June 01, 2018, 10:12:30 PM
Great changes!  Good job.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 01, 2018, 11:02:02 PM
Who do we contact to declare our interest in the certified trainer program?
Support@nadac.com

We should have some solid dates in the next month or so :)


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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Foomin Z on June 02, 2018, 09:12:32 AM
For trials that only offer one round of Chances per day: could a person be allowed to enter every level of Chances, in order to work toward the new achievement cups, provided the dog is not entered in any other classes with jumps that day?
I think the software folks might very well put a hit out on me if we did that!

In all seriousness though,  while I can see the argument that itís no different then entering 3 jumping classes,  I donít feel comfortable opening that bag of worms.   And it would cause a lot of confusion for the trial secretary and gate people.

I don't understand how it is a "bag of worms" from a point of view other than programming. If the programming is set up correctly, no day-of-show workers should have a problem during the trial. Everything would print correctly. Gate stewards shouldn't be confused at all. Perhaps the trial secretary would have to count on entry forms how many jumping classes a person has entered, to make sure they are not breaking the rules? Chances is the shortest length course out of all the jumping classes. It wouldn't be overextending a dog more than double runs of jumpers or regular. What other questionable angle is there? The training for open or novice due to running the same course in an upper level? That isn't much different from double runs either.

I am going to a trial next weekend. I entered only the one round of chances each day in elite. The trial already has admittedly low numbers. They would probably have appreciated it if I entered more classes, but I like having goals too. That's the only purpose of awards. Dogs don't care about those.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Cathie Cage on June 02, 2018, 09:59:51 AM
Just curious as why your post are never signed? It would really be nice to know who you are. So if I respond to your post I can include your name.

Cathie Cage
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: giddyup on June 02, 2018, 01:50:30 PM
Question on the awards (I forgot the names) where you can do extra open or novice chances because you struggle with elite chances. Can you attempt to get all 3?  A regular NATCH, the award with the extra open chances and the award with the extra novice chances?
Thanks
Jill
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 02, 2018, 02:48:42 PM
Question on the awards (I forgot the names) where you can do extra open or novice chances because you struggle with elite chances. Can you attempt to get all 3?  A regular NATCH, the award with the extra open chances and the award with the extra novice chances?
Thanks
Jill

Yes.

The goal is to give some recognition for the skills, but also a place to advance.

So someone could get a Silver Achievement Cup (Novice Chances), and then progress onto a Gold Achievement Cup (Open Chances) and a NATCH (Elite Chances).

Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Lindsey Cooper on June 03, 2018, 02:17:47 PM
I think the goal with the chances update is to give people who struggle with Elite chances an opportunity to get an Achievement title in place of a NATCH. If someone has all their elite Q's for a NATCH, but is still stuck in Novice or Open chances, they have the opportunity for an Achievement award by earning a certain amount of Novice Chances Q's or Open Chances Q's.

Example: Dog & Handler team have all Q's for NATCH, but are stuck in Open chances with 20 pts.
The team can continue to stay in open chances and earn x more Q's to earn an achievement award, or they can go back to Novice chances and get x more Q's to earn the other achievement award.

I think most teams that have distance skills will continue to work towards the NATCH and skip the achievement awards, but this gives teams with less distance skills to work towards a championship type award.

Lindsey
www.mountaindogsports.com
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: BeckyAH on June 03, 2018, 02:28:53 PM


Speaking as one of those teams... Yeah, basically.  I don't know exactly what I'm going to do, yet.  I have some time limitations here, but having *something* I could get and work toward is huge.  I won't give up on elite chances, but having something in reach a long the way just... psychologically feels better.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Amy McGovern on June 03, 2018, 04:49:23 PM
Agreed!  We are one of those teams too. I watched the video and cheered out loud for that part. We are totally going for the novice level one first. Once we get that, I'll maybe feel like she finally can try open chances!  And so on. I love the idea!  And for those who already have the elite skills, I'm happy for them.  I hope they realize that this doesn't take anything away from them but gives the rest of us something to aim for. 

-Amy and the schnauzer pack
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: danforth on June 03, 2018, 05:54:19 PM
It just happens that Cocoa is really good with distance with lots of Chances points, but we didn't earn our NATCH until last summer because he often did not make time in jumpers courses.  The new times did help us, but I understand that they might fluctuate each year.   I am not concerned about Cocoa at this point, but thinking about other dog's I know who have the same problem.  Might there be a set of achievement awards for them? 

Just something to think about?

Isabel

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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 03, 2018, 06:06:19 PM
It just happens that Cocoa is really good with distance with lots of Chances points, but we didn't earn our NATCH until last summer because he often did not make time in jumpers courses.  The new times did help us, but I understand that they might fluctuate each year.   I am not concerned about Cocoa at this point, but thinking about other dog's I know who have the same problem.  Might there be a set of achievement awards for them? 

Just something to think about?

Isabel

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Itís still high on our list.

The issue weíve been running into is creating an award that doesnít detract from the natch, but also doesnít feel like an award of lesser value.

Weíve pulled a few focus groups together and ran different ideas past them,  and it never goes over terribly well


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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: BeckyAH on June 03, 2018, 06:40:41 PM
It just happens that Cocoa is really good with distance with lots of Chances points, but we didn't earn our NATCH until last summer because he often did not make time in jumpers courses.  The new times did help us, but I understand that they might fluctuate each year.   I am not concerned about Cocoa at this point, but thinking about other dog's I know who have the same problem.  Might there be a set of achievement awards for them? 

Just something to think about?

Isabel

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Itís still high on our list.

The issue weíve been running into is creating an award that doesnít detract from the natch, but also doesnít feel like an award of lesser value.

Weíve pulled a few focus groups together and ran different ideas past them,  and it never goes over terribly well


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Chris, just a little input here:

I don't think there's anything wrong with 'lesser value'.  As I said, I'm one of those teams who struggles with distance.  I'm so proud of my Open Chances title it's a wee bit disgusting because we had to work hard for it.  I don't think I will ever not see the NATCh as cream of the crop, the ultimate award in NADAC. 

So, my problem isn't wanting something as 'valuable' as the NATCH, it's more that psychologically having *something* there - some kind of cumulative award - that I could earn beyond my Open Versatility was a big, huge, appealing deal for me.  Extended titles in classes, I could do, and will do, but without Elite Chances (or Jumpers, or Regular, to be fair), there's really nothing out there to work toward or earn.   That can make things feel like a bit of a slog (to me anyway) and be a little disheartening.  It can BE lesser value, as long as there's something there.

Does that make sense or am I being a weirdo here?
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 03, 2018, 07:20:11 PM
I actually agree completely with the mind set you have.

So no worries there.
I might have to just pony up and make the changes I want and ride out the negative stuff until it passes :)


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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on June 03, 2018, 07:29:30 PM
Question on the awards (I forgot the names) where you can do extra open or novice chances because you struggle with elite chances. Can you attempt to get all 3?  A regular NATCH, the award with the extra open chances and the award with the extra novice chances?
Thanks
Jill

Yes.

The goal is to give some recognition for the skills, but also a place to advance.

So someone could get a Silver Achievement Cup (Novice Chances), and then progress onto a Gold Achievement Cup (Open Chances) and a NATCH (Elite Chances).
So are these awards retroactive or just from Jan. 2019 forward?
Linda
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 03, 2018, 09:23:11 PM
Question on the awards (I forgot the names) where you can do extra open or novice chances because you struggle with elite chances. Can you attempt to get all 3?  A regular NATCH, the award with the extra open chances and the award with the extra novice chances?
Thanks
Jill

Yes.

The goal is to give some recognition for the skills, but also a place to advance.

So someone could get a Silver Achievement Cup (Novice Chances), and then progress onto a Gold Achievement Cup (Open Chances) and a NATCH (Elite Chances).
So are these awards retroactive or just from Jan. 2019 forward?
Linda
They will be retroactive.

I doubt many will be given out for the past though since not many people stick around in novice or open past the superiors


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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on June 04, 2018, 07:41:46 AM
I LOVE the achievement award!  I think it is awesome for those people who just can't get their dog to do an elite chances Q.  I struggle with one of my dogs at elite chances.  We only need 2 more for his NATCH, but it has been FOREVER!  I would consider dropping him down to earn the others rather than still struggle with elite chances and have us both frustrated after I earn those final 2.  (I just can't see being soooo close and not finishing it! LOL!)  I think it is also awesome to try to draw others into NADAC and keep those that struggle with chances with us.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Jeannie Biggers on June 04, 2018, 07:49:52 AM
Agreed!  We are one of those teams too. I watched the video and cheered out loud for that part. We are totally going for the novice level one first. Once we get that, I'll maybe feel like she finally can try open chances! 

This is why this is such a cool idea!!!  Boost confidence by letting people achieve their own goals then make new ones!  Just awesome :)
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: mephalon on June 04, 2018, 08:31:52 AM

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[/quote]
Itís still high on our list.

The issue weíve been running into is creating an award that doesnít detract from the natch, but also doesnít feel like an award of lesser value.

Weíve pulled a few focus groups together and ran different ideas past them,  and it never goes over terribly well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]

Question-  how many from the focus group are those handlers that struggle with things like distance challenges (which it sounds like you addressed) and time (which is still in the works).   Not criticizing the focus group as I am sure they were carefully chosen but if a team does not have the struggle (that has not been able to be overcome) then they (obviously not all) might not see any value in the alternative awards.     

I want something to work towards.   It's my choice to work towards it and I don't really care if others think it is lesser-  it's my and  my dog's achievement but at least the achievement exists.  Right now I don't have that option.    Others who think the alternative award is "less" can continue on the NATCH path.   Obviously an alternative achievement would not be as prestigious as a NATCH but I think the people who would be going for the alternative achievement wouldn't care- but  maybe I am unique in that thought process.   Why would those going for a NATCH care if there were other awards?  Why is more than one path to an award/achievement so abhorrent to some people?  An alternative achievement in no way diminishes their NATCHs  it just gives others something to work towards- rather than go to other venues that have more options.   

M
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 04, 2018, 08:41:38 AM
That has been my line of thinking Mary.

I mentioned earlier that we might just have to do what we feel is right and ride out the storm from the folks who donít agree.

I like having alternate paths for people to take as not everyone has the same goals.   Doesnít mean we donít want them competing with us :)


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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: BeckyAH on June 04, 2018, 09:28:48 AM

I want something to work towards.   It's my choice to work towards it and I don't really care if others think it is lesser-  it's my and  my dog's achievement but at least the achievement exists.  Right now I don't have that option.    Others who think the alternative award is "less" can continue on the NATCH path.   Obviously an alternative achievement would not be as prestigious as a NATCH but I think the people who would be going for the alternative achievement wouldn't care- but  maybe I am unique in that thought process.   Why would those going for a NATCH care if there were other awards?  Why is more than one path to an award/achievement so abhorrent to some people?  An alternative achievement in no way diminishes their NATCHs  it just gives others something to work towards- rather than go to other venues that have more options.   

M

This.

I mean I did finish my open chances title and I'm still wrestling some with elite, and don't want to stop.  I would like to at least get elite versatility. But that dog is heading toward veteran status and at this point there's... nothing else out there, as I mentioned.

And having NOTHING OUT THERE makes continuing to compete feel like a journey toward nothing.   That's really hard for me, and clearly you're not alone since you, I, and Chris are on the same page.   Just give me SOMETHING to serve as a benchmark on the journey.  The 1000 point award and extended titles are awesome, but they just don't... give me the same challenge as something that requires Qs in specific places and don't feel as much of a stop (or pause or visit) along the way.  More like milemarkers.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Jeannie Biggers on June 04, 2018, 11:47:58 AM


Question-  how many from the focus group are those handlers that struggle with things like distance challenges (which it sounds like you addressed) and time (which is still in the works).   Not criticizing the focus group as I am sure they were carefully chosen but if a team does not have the struggle (that has not been able to be overcome) then they (obviously not all) might not see any value in the alternative awards.     

I want something to work towards.   It's my choice to work towards it and I don't really care if others think it is lesser-  it's my and  my dog's achievement but at least the achievement exists.  Right now I don't have that option.    Others who think the alternative award is "less" can continue on the NATCH path.   Obviously an alternative achievement would not be as prestigious as a NATCH but I think the people who would be going for the alternative achievement wouldn't care- but  maybe I am unique in that thought process.   Why would those going for a NATCH care if there were other awards?  Why is more than one path to an award/achievement so abhorrent to some people?  An alternative achievement in no way diminishes their NATCHs  it just gives others something to work towards- rather than go to other venues that have more options.   

M

M

If you look back over posts about Chances and suggested changes that could be made, you will find a post of mine that talked about these changes that Chris is putting into place.  And I think maybe that you will be surprised that I am a bonus handler and run faster dogs.  So why would I care about people that have distance or time issues???  I do care, I like to see people succeed and have goals and they don't have to be the same goals as mine.  You achieving a different goal does not make it any less an achievement then me achieving my goals!  And I think the NADAC office feels the same way or they wouldn't be addressing this stuff :)

I am super excited for those that either don't have the skills or just flat would rather be with their dogs to now have goals.  I think that says a lot about NADAC and the direction they are going.  Not everyone or every dog wants to work away from each other  ;D  Cheers to Chris for finding a way for everyone to have achievable goals... no matter what they are!!

Jeannie
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: mephalon on June 04, 2018, 01:00:01 PM
I did qualify my response by saying "obviously not all" but Chris'post implies that there are some in the focus groups who objected- so that was the thought process behind my post. 

It was similar when the SCT was increased- some people were upset and felt like it diluted their Qs.  I don't understand that because if you were making time under the old SCT you still made time-  the new SCT allowed others to succeed.   I just I don't get how someone else succeeding has any effect on other teams success (except at Champs obv). 

Similarly I don't understand how having an alternate a achievement would diminish a NATCH - I mean no one is pretending these other achievements would be remotely NATCH-like.  Now it looks like there will be something for the distance challenged dogs- which I think is great news.       

I really appreciate all Chris and the NADAC team are doing.  I think they are doing a great job and I am also excited about the direction NADAC is going-  which is why I haven't given up on my favorite venue yet.   I am just keeping my fingers crossed for the time challenged dogs :-).   
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Cheryl/Manny on June 04, 2018, 03:44:35 PM
Well done.  Great practical changes to help encourage all levels of NADAC.   
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: dogrsqr on June 04, 2018, 04:33:59 PM
For trials that only offer one round of Chances per day: could a person be allowed to enter every level of Chances, in order to work toward the new achievement cups, provided the dog is not entered in any other classes with jumps that day?
I think the software folks might very well put a hit out on me if we did that!

In all seriousness though,  while I can see the argument that itís no different then entering 3 jumping classes,  I donít feel comfortable opening that bag of worms.   And it would cause a lot of confusion for the trial secretary and gate people.

I don't understand how it is a "bag of worms" from a point of view other than programming. If the programming is set up correctly, no day-of-show workers should have a problem during the trial. Everything would print correctly. Gate stewards shouldn't be confused at all. Perhaps the trial secretary would have to count on entry forms how many jumping classes a person has entered, to make sure they are not breaking the rules? Chances is the shortest length course out of all the jumping classes. It wouldn't be overextending a dog more than double runs of jumpers or regular. What other questionable angle is there? The training for open or novice due to running the same course in an upper level? That isn't much different from double runs either.

I am going to a trial next weekend. I entered only the one round of chances each day in elite. The trial already has admittedly low numbers. They would probably have appreciated it if I entered more classes, but I like having goals too. That's the only purpose of awards. Dogs don't care about those.
[/quote

Don't you think this would give an unfair advantage for someone to get to practice the course 3 times?   

Gina
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Cindy on June 04, 2018, 08:47:24 PM
After listening to this I have a question and a suggestion. 

1)  When talking about the quarterly updates by email, you said you would send them to "current competitors".  How are you defining that?  What do people who are not currently trialing but want to keep up with the information covered in those need to do to make sure we're on the list?

2)  In reference to the Achievement Awards - why not make it either Jumpers or Chances for the "regular" one and allow handlers to choose which class to leave out of the criteria for the "versatility" one?  Most teams have "that class" that lags behind the others and for some becomes just too frustrating to continue.  Why single out Chances? 

As for the comments about the value of the different awards, that is for each person to decide for themselves.  I have had 3 agility dogs.  My first one got a NATCH, the second one a NATCH-2 and V-NATCH, my third one got a Novice All Around Award.  While they all mean a lot to me, the one that required the most blood, sweat and tears was the Novice All Around.  For that particular dog, that was the equivalent of a NATCH in my mind.  People who truly watched our journey get that.  And even if they didn't, I get it.  It wasn't the goal I started out with for her, but it required more effort on her part than the NATCHes my other dogs achieved.  And bottom line, I'd give up all the awards and medals we earned for just one more day with any of my dogs. 
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Lin Battaglia on June 05, 2018, 08:11:40 AM
I agree Cathie Cage and have always thought posts should be signed with the real name of the poster.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: dogrsqr on June 05, 2018, 08:28:32 AM

Sent from my KFASWI using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.
Itís still high on our list.

The issue weíve been running into is creating an award that doesnít detract from the natch, but also doesnít feel like an award of lesser value.

Weíve pulled a few focus groups together and ran different ideas past them,  and it never goes over terribly well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]

Question-  how many from the focus group are those handlers that struggle with things like distance challenges (which it sounds like you addressed) and time (which is still in the works).   Not criticizing the focus group as I am sure they were carefully chosen but if a team does not have the struggle (that has not been able to be overcome) then they (obviously not all) might not see any value in the alternative awards.     

I want something to work towards.   It's my choice to work towards it and I don't really care if others think it is lesser-  it's my and  my dog's achievement but at least the achievement exists.  Right now I don't have that option.    Others who think the alternative award is "less" can continue on the NATCH path.   Obviously an alternative achievement would not be as prestigious as a NATCH but I think the people who would be going for the alternative achievement wouldn't care- but  maybe I am unique in that thought process.   Why would those going for a NATCH care if there were other awards?  Why is more than one path to an award/achievement so abhorrent to some people?  An alternative achievement in no way diminishes their NATCHs  it just gives others something to work towards- rather than go to other venues that have more options.   

M
[/quote]

Mary,

Most of us have problems with a class.  I think where the bad feelings come in is that those of us who have problems with a class other than Chances might feel like we aren't getting anything to work towards.  I have a problem with regular but have managed to get a few NATCH' so it doesn't bother me personally.  Someone I know who has great team work, but a dog who stresses about weaving at trials asked (maybe sarcastically) what about me? Can I get an award with Novice regular legs since I have all the other NATCH requirements?

There are people out there that struggle with things other than time and distance.  They also might like to feel that they have some goals to work towards.

Gina
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 05, 2018, 08:31:18 AM
I donít think anyone is disagreeing that other people struggle in different ways.
But if youíre struggling with regular you can go to any trainer in the country and learn the skills you need to be successful.

If youíre struggling in chances,  you need a nadac specific trainer because even the hardest distance test in any other venue is only really comparable to a novice, maybe open chances course.

And if you donít have access to a nadac trainer youíre just kind of out of luck.


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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: mephalon on June 05, 2018, 08:55:23 AM

Mary,

Most of us have problems with a class.  I think where the bad feelings come in is that those of us who have problems with a class other than Chances might feel like we aren't getting anything to work towards.  I have a problem with regular but have managed to get a few NATCH' so it doesn't bother me personally.  Someone I know who has great team work, but a dog who stresses about weaving at trials asked (maybe sarcastically) what about me? Can I get an award with Novice regular legs since I have all the other NATCH requirements?

There are people out there that struggle with things other than time and distance.  They also might like to feel that they have some goals to work towards.

Gina
[/quote]

I agree Gina and completely understand-I guess the only difference would be the distance required and YPS requirements that are unique to NADAC.   I can get a Championship in other venues without distance and at the YPS my main competing dog currently runs-  can't without weaves in any venue.

I understand different venues and I am not advocating for all to be the same but this is an example.  My mostly retired girl (who before she became semi-retired earned her Superior Elite Jumpers, TNE-400, Outstanding Elite Touch N Go titles and if Chances didn't sometimes have weaves would have her Elite Chances titles too) hates the weaves and I gave up on getting her a NATCH (or any other venue's championship) years ago . What I did do (because the option existed in my other primary venue) is change my award goals for her.    CPE has point level awards that you get a plaque for.   So I began entering her in CPE lower levels to earn her point level titles in Level 1 and Level 2 where weaves are not required (because you don't have to do Standard/Regular to earn points) - she has her 1000 and 2000 point level plaques in two different categories (so 4 total plaques).  Yes I know NADAC has lifetime points and I think they are great- but they are not separate awards to work towards- they just come as you progress.   In CPE I made a conscious choice to stay in level 1 and get her 1000 points, then level 2 to get her 2000 points-  then did the same in a different height class. 

In NADAC, as it stands today, there is no such option.   I believe that is what Chris is trying to address.   

Since I believe one of the goals is to maintain/increase NADAC participation- I think having those alternative type of awards will keep people in the venue-  maybe only a few but with trials looking for entries those few can make a difference.   

Mary
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: BeckyAH on June 05, 2018, 10:27:43 AM
I don’t think anyone is disagreeing that other people struggle in different ways.
But if you’re struggling with regular you can go to any trainer in the country and learn the skills you need to be successful.

If you’re struggling in chances,  you need a nadac specific trainer because even the hardest distance test in any other venue is only really comparable to a novice, maybe open chances course.

And if you don’t have access to a nadac trainer you’re just kind of out of luck.


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This.  The speed requirements are being looked at closely, and regular is just... low speed requirement and very, very basic agility - regardless of venue.  Yes, it has barrels and hoops, but learning those are super easy for most dogs and, ime, a part of foundation training for most agility dogs (maybe not hoops and barrels specifically but going away from someone to circle a cone or bucket and through uprights without a jump? Yes.).   The rest of it is *very basic agility* required EVERYWHERE.   You're not getting upper level awards in ANY venue without being able to do contacts, jumps, and weaves in a trial setting and at a moderate pace.

The distance thing?  Not so much.  Classes that require some, but nothing like elite level chances courses.

If the goal is to keep people from going to other venues to find success they can't find in NADAC, looking at the YPS requirements (in classes that have them, ie: Jumpers, mostly for requirements for upper level awards), and the distance requirements/alternatives is pretty much where it's going to be.

If you can't weave or do contacts  in a trial you *can* bail and go to AKC or USDAA or CPE, but you're not going to be accumulating upper level awards there either.   THAT is not a unique to NADAC feature, it's just agility.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: dogrsqr on June 05, 2018, 12:23:14 PM
Some of us who have good distance have just as hard a time getting our dogs to come into us (which is required depending on the course) as those who have a hard time getting distance.  I believe a NADAC style trainer is required for that training as well because the other venues don't have the same speed and flow in their courses and those trainers don't use any distance.  There is only one trainer who has been able to help me with this and she lives half way across the country.  I seek out her seminars.

You may or may not agree, understand, or think other's POV is valid, but someone asked why people didn't particularly like this change.  I don't think it's because they don't understand the difficulty of training distance.  I very much understand the difficulty of training distance.  My first dog got her first NATCH at age 13 because we had a hard time with distance. 

BTW you can find online classes in distance training by several qualified individuals. 

Gina



Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: BeckyAH on June 05, 2018, 12:27:25 PM
I do understand and I do believe it's valid to struggle with.  I even think being upset at thinking other people are getting something 'special' is upsetting and tends to make people snarky and bitter.

But ANY venue they go to is going to require they be able to get the dog in closer for success and ANY trainer can, in fact, handle that.   Even with a dog who is used to training distance.  Really.

It's a general agility training challenge.  It's not NADAC specific.  At all.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: giddyup on June 05, 2018, 12:41:36 PM
Hi, I've got a couple more questions about the Gold/Silver Achievement Award/cup

1) if you try to get a regular NATCH  and a Gold Achieve Award & Cup and also the Silver Achievement Award/Cup, do you need to get the 230 elite Regular points and 130 Elite Jumpers points only once for all 3  titles? Or do you have to get those points again for the second and again for the 3rd title?  (Hope I worded that question right!)

2) for Gold Achieve, with the 160 points in Open Chances, is that a TOTAL of 160 or the basic title (30 points) + 160 for a total of 190?  And same question for the Silver titles?

And thanks for this change!  I love the idea of working towards more goals. ( but I'm not giving up on trying for a NATCH yet!) 😄

Jill
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 05, 2018, 12:47:58 PM
Hi, I've got a couple more questions about the Gold/Silver Achievement Award/cup

1) if you try to get a regular NATCH  and a Gold Achieve Award & Cup and also the Silver Achievement Award/Cup, do you need to get the 230 elite Regular points and 130 Elite Jumpers points only once for all 3  titles? Or do you have to get those points again for the second and again for the 3rd title?  (Hope I worded that question right!)

2) for Gold Achieve, with the 160 points in Open Chances, is that a TOTAL of 160 or the basic title (30 points) + 160 for a total of 190?  And same question for the Silver titles?

And thanks for this change!  I love the idea of working towards more goals. ( but I'm not giving up on trying for a NATCH yet!) 😄

Jill

1) You would only need to get the Regular and Jumpers points once.   As they would count towards the first instance of the award.   

2) That is a total of 160 :)
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: dogrsqr on June 05, 2018, 01:06:58 PM
I do understand and I do believe it's valid to struggle with.  I even think being upset at thinking other people are getting something 'special' is upsetting and tends to make people snarky and bitter.

But ANY venue they go to is going to require they be able to get the dog in closer for success and ANY trainer can, in fact, handle that.   Even with a dog who is used to training distance.  Really.

It's a general agility training challenge.  It's not NADAC specific.  At all.

Ok this is the end of this conversation for me.  Not trying to be snarky, just trying to get people to understand another perspective and answer the question.

And REALLY no one here can help me with my issue.  And it IS NADAC specific that I need to transition from distance to close.  But we are likely to never agree on this point.

Peace out.

Gina
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Pam Kaye on June 05, 2018, 05:12:17 PM
Just want to award Cindy the LOVE button award.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Foomin Z on June 05, 2018, 07:47:30 PM
Don't you think this would give an unfair advantage for someone to get to practice the course 3 times?   

Gina

Who is it unfair to? A Q only matters to the one running. It's been said by several people in multiple places in the forum. Why does it matter how someone else does?

Other people seem pleased by the idea of the new achievement cups, but perhaps still dream of the NATCH. Why would it be wrong to try for both at the same time?

That would be only one extra run past trials who offer double-runs in chances. Also, the line in novice is so incredibly different from open and elite that it does not even compare. Want to limit it to only two tries? Fine, allow one elite chances run and one of another level.

With the new training in the ring rule, people could not even bother trying the first round of elite chances in a double-run format. They could train it, then run "for real" in the second round. It may be  unsportsmanlike, but not against the rules. Maybe there's even people doing this now in double-run format trials, and I just haven't seen it.

I am not really understanding why running even one round of elite chances followed by one round of open chances is so objectionable, considering the allowance by NADAC of double-run format as well as swap runs. Or is everyone who objects to the multi-level chances runs idea the same as those who object to double-run/swap formats?
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Foomin Z on June 05, 2018, 07:58:37 PM

If youíre struggling in chances,  you need a nadac specific trainer because even the hardest distance test in any other venue is only really comparable to a novice, maybe open chances course.
Ha ha! I felt this for real when I went to a recent USDAA trial, saw the gamble and thought, "That's it??" NADAC chances is good training for everywhere else! Only other venue that can compare is AAC. Some of their gambles are more difficult that NADAC elite chances, more in and out from the handler with more off-course opportunities.

But does NADAC offer multiple superior titles for each class? Like "superior elite jumpers 2" if someone gets ten more elite jumpers past the superior title? Or do titles per class stop at just superior? I was doing just JWW in AKC for one of my dogs so she wouldn't have to do contacts, and she got up to master JWW 6 or whatever it was called. Would that kind of thing help people feel like they are achieving goals?
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 05, 2018, 08:01:22 PM

If youíre struggling in chances,  you need a nadac specific trainer because even the hardest distance test in any other venue is only really comparable to a novice, maybe open chances course.
Ha ha! I felt this for real when I went to a recent USDAA trial, saw the gamble and thought, "That's it??" NADAC chances is good training for everywhere else! Only other venue that can compare is AAC. Some of their gambles are more difficult that NADAC elite chances, more in and out from the handler with more off-course opportunities.

But does NADAC offer multiple superior titles for each class? Like "superior elite jumpers 2" if someone gets ten more elite jumpers past the superior title? Or do titles per class stop at just superior? I was doing just JWW in AKC for one of my dogs so she wouldn't have to do contacts, and she got up to master JWW 6 or whatever it was called. Would that kind of thing help people feel like they are achieving goals?
There are extended titles for each class, and at every level.

So once you reach 300 points in jumpers you would have a EJC-300,  400 points, EJC-400 and so on.

Regular is every 200 points.  So EAC-600 and so on


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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Salli Dulco on June 05, 2018, 10:32:17 PM
Hi Chris,

Thanks for the updates!
Regarding the grandfathered in dogs who run in other venues, how does this impact their achieving the Elite All Around title?


Sallu Dulco
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Cathie Cage on June 06, 2018, 06:46:50 AM

If youíre struggling in chances,  you need a nadac specific trainer because even the hardest distance test in any other venue is only really comparable to a novice, maybe open chances course.
Ha ha! I felt this for real when I went to a recent USDAA trial, saw the gamble and thought, "That's it??" NADAC chances is good training for everywhere else! Only other venue that can compare is AAC. Some of their gambles are more difficult that NADAC elite chances, more in and out from the handler with more off-course opportunities.

But does NADAC offer multiple superior titles for each class? Like "superior elite jumpers 2" if someone gets ten more elite jumpers past the superior title? Or do titles per class stop at just superior? I was doing just JWW in AKC for one of my dogs so she wouldn't have to do contacts, and she got up to master JWW 6 or whatever it was called. Would that kind of thing help people feel like they are achieving goals?


Lisa, Nadac does offer extended titles! I think we all need to let Nadac implement the new changes and after they take affect talk about what else could help Nadac grow.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Foomin Z on June 06, 2018, 09:53:00 AM
There are extended titles for each class, and at every level.

So once you reach 300 points in jumpers you would have a EJC-300,  400 points, EJC-400 and so on.

Regular is every 200 points.  So EAC-600 and so on
:O
How is it called at levels that are not elite? I don't remember seeing any of this in the rulebook or those titles sheets that float around every once in a while. Every +100 for each class, at each level, is a new title?
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 06, 2018, 09:54:35 AM
Hi Chris,

Thanks for the updates!
Regarding the grandfathered in dogs who run in other venues, how does this impact their achieving the Elite All Around title?


Sallu Dulco

The criteria wouldnít change.

If someone wants to jump into elite they would also be foregoing the ability to earn an all around.

They could earn a natch, but to change the criteria for the all around would really lessen the award as itís a pretty big achievement for those who earn it,  and I donít want to take away from that.


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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Bostondirtdogs07 on June 06, 2018, 10:08:41 AM
First, I do want to applaud Chris and NADAC for all of the great new changes that will take place in 2019!   :)  I think these will be helpful in recruiting new people to the venue.  I can see from the response that a number of current competitors are happy to see the implementation of a the achievement cups for teams at the Novice and Open Chances levels and I think that is a good thing.  Unfortunately for those of us continuing to struggle for those last few Q's at the Elite Chances level we will just continue to struggle.  It doesn't make much sense at this point to move our dogs down a level to earn these new awards.  As I noted in my original post regarding increasing participation in NADAC, the distance challenges just keep getting more difficult making it harder and harder for our newer dogs to reach our goals and earn their championships.  In addition to the increased distance, we are seeing challenges now where the layering of contact obstacles and tunnels make it impossible for the dogs (particularly the small ones) to see our cues to them at all.  On the advice of an excellent local AKC instructor, I am working on teaching stronger verbal cues and hope that this will help.  We host guest instructors several times a year, but are still unfortunately in one of those areas with no NADAC instruction.  Maybe someone in our area will step up for the new certified training opportunity.  I will be spreading the word.     

Overall, I do think the changes are positive ones.  Good work guys!
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 06, 2018, 10:11:13 AM
First, I do want to applaud Chris and NADAC for all of the great new changes that will take place in 2019!   :)  I think these will be helpful in recruiting new people to the venue.  I can see from the response that a number of current competitors are happy to see the implementation of a the achievement cups for teams at the Novice and Open Chances levels and I think that is a good thing.  Unfortunately for those of us continuing to struggle for those last few Q's at the Elite Chances level we will just continue to struggle.  It doesn't make much sense at this point to move our dogs down a level to earn these new awards.  As I noted in my original post regarding increasing participation in NADAC, the distance challenges just keep getting more difficult making it harder and harder for our newer dogs to reach our goals and earn their championships.  In addition to the increased distance, we are seeing challenges now where the layering of contact obstacles and tunnels make it impossible for the dogs (particularly the small ones) to see our cues to them at all.  On the advice of an excellent local AKC instructor, I am working on teaching stronger verbal cues and hope that this will help.  We host guest instructors several times a year, but are still unfortunately in one of those areas with no NADAC instruction.  Maybe someone in our area will step up for the new certified training opportunity.  I will be spreading the word.     

Overall, I do think the changes are positive ones.  Good work guys!
Weíve been making the chances lines easier.

Everything takes time to filter in :)


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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Bostondirtdogs07 on June 06, 2018, 10:29:49 AM
Well then we'll give it some time before abandoning all hope.    ;)
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Amanda Nelson on June 06, 2018, 11:46:44 AM
Don't abandon all hope!! :-)  we have been adjusting the Chances lines and as Chris said it does take time for it to filter all in. :-)

Shameless promoting to follow..... :-) I am looking at doing an east coast seminar tour this fall/next spring, If you know of any facilities and equipment to rent, let me know!! :-D

Amanda

Well then we'll give it some time before abandoning all hope.    ;)
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Amanda Nelson on June 06, 2018, 11:48:07 AM
Also, don't forget to check out the NADAC Training Libary!! Lorrie Reynolds has been posting AMAZING distance and directional articles there! :-)

https://nadactraininglibrary.ning.com/

Amanda
www.fluidmotionagility.com
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Bostondirtdogs07 on June 06, 2018, 12:40:53 PM
Thanks for the tips Amanda!  I'll check out the link.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Lauri on June 06, 2018, 03:57:19 PM
I just wanted to say Thanks to everyone who helps with NADAC but especially Chris! Some days I don't know how you continue to stay so positive!
I think the new achievement awards (gold, Silver etc) are a wonderful idea!!


here is an ELITE checklist that a came across a few years ago for those who are interested
Have a great day everyone and Happy Trialing 

Lauri
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Donna & Gracie on June 09, 2018, 04:29:47 AM
Lauri, in regards to the extended title page, do you know if there is one that continues on from the sheet you posted. Unfortunately, I have no computer skills to duplicate this form with the numbers continuing out from the last form. Hoping someone can download it to the forum 🤗
Thanks Donna
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on June 11, 2018, 09:03:56 AM
Don't abandon all hope!! :-)  we have been adjusting the Chances lines and as Chris said it does take time for it to filter all in. :-)

Shameless promoting to follow..... :-) I am looking at doing an east coast seminar tour this fall/next spring, If you know of any facilities and equipment to rent, let me know!! :-D

Amanda

Well then we'll give it some time before abandoning all hope.    ;)

I haven't seen them yet, but I am looking forward to it.  As someone who runs a small dog, I definitely struggle with chances with that dog, but not so much with any of my larger dogs. 
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Carole & Pat Daggett on June 11, 2018, 09:20:21 AM
Lauri, in regards to the extended title page, do you know if there is one that continues on from the sheet you posted. Unfortunately, I have no computer skills to duplicate this form with the numbers continuing out from the last form. Hoping someone can download it to the forum 🤗
Thanks Donna

Donna,

Here are the ones that I use.  I may have copied the one beginning with 810 from somewhere else (can't remember now, it was long ago), but I did create the one that starts with 1610 so if you see any errors, please let me know.

Carole Daggett
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: RobertStewart on June 12, 2018, 10:00:31 AM
A LOT of good news in this video, I esp like the standardized premiums and grandfathering in from other venues. although other venues will have some challenges with the NADAC style of distance.
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: bhodges865 on June 20, 2018, 11:31:34 AM
They will be retroactive.

I doubt many will be given out for the past though since not many people stick around in novice or open past the superiors


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]

I actually plan to move back down since my dog has structural issues and we don't do 12 weaves anymore.  This will actually give us something to work towards besides just being out there and having fun (I started only playing the "fun" classes anyway).
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Sheila & the Shelties on July 05, 2018, 11:51:58 PM
It sounded like with standardized premiums, there will be a standardized starting time. Is that correct? Will there be standardized classes as well? Will all the runs be double runs in the future? Is there any leeway at all in deciding what classes are offered?
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on July 05, 2018, 11:55:53 PM
It sounded like with standardized premiums, there will be a standardized starting time. Is that correct? Will there be standardized classes as well? Will all the runs be double runs in the future? Is there any leeway at all in deciding what classes are offered?
Definitely no on all counts.

Standardized only means that the info will be in the same place for all premiums, but the info within will be different per the clubs normal routine


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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Bostondirtdogs07 on July 06, 2018, 10:52:59 AM
In regards to the newly revised "swap option", is this offered at the discretion of the Club only or is it Owner's choice?  Does is have to be listed in the premium to be taken?
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on July 06, 2018, 03:23:41 PM
In regards to the newly revised "swap option", is this offered at the discretion of the Club only or is it Owner's choice?  Does is have to be listed in the premium to be taken?
Purely a club choice :)


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Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Desiree on November 22, 2018, 07:13:40 AM
Quick question on the Grandfathering.  You indicated in the video that the NADAC office needed to receive a copy of the title certificate from another venue to enter the higher level.  If an exhibitor sends in an AKC Master (Elite) level standard (regular) title certificate does this allow them to enter in all the elite classes or just the regular class?  My thought was that other venues do not have Weavers, Tunnelers......does the exhibitor still need to start at Novice in any class not offered by another venue?
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: SandeeStewie on November 22, 2018, 09:16:58 PM
Quick question on the Grandfathering.  You indicated in the video that the NADAC office needed to receive a copy of the title certificate from another venue to enter the higher level.  If an exhibitor sends in an AKC Master (Elite) level standard (regular) title certificate does this allow them to enter in all the elite classes or just the regular class?

I'd like to add to the question on grandfathering that was not clear to me from the video & couldn't find anything written down in the rule book yet.
Is there a mapping that NADAC will use for titles from other venues? (fwiw UKI lists such a mapping between levels in AKC, CKC, USDAA, CPE, UKI)
e.g. say your dog has progressed through AKC novice, open & excellent titles, now competing in Masters would that make the dog eligible to compete in NADAC Elite, or would the AKC Masters dog have to title in AKC Masters before being grandfathered into NADAC Elite?
To second Amanda's question, does the title only apply to specific classes that can be mapped or does one title grandfather the dog into all NADAC classes at that level?
Is grandfathering a one time deal like UKI at initial registration or open-ended - If open ended does that then allow multiple grandfathering in the same class (or to all classes depending on answer to previous question) as titles are gained in other venues?

Matt.
Sandee/Stewie
 

Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 24, 2018, 01:33:49 PM
If everybody could just hold tight for a little bit I can answer everyone's questions.

It's a work in progress so I would like to get everything finalized in the rulebook before I start answering too much :)
Title: Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
Post by: Karen Birdsong on March 23, 2019, 01:46:47 PM
The current rule book is a bit confusing. 
  2.1 last bullet states "Any dog that has not previously entered a NADAC trial must begin all classes at the Intro or Novice level."   Later iin the rule book
  4.1 talks about grandfathering in dogs performing a higher levels in other venues.

  Suggestion...Add a note at the end of 2.1 directing folks to the Grandfathering instructions in 4.1.  Perhaps, "Dogs that hold advanced titles in other venues may qualify for grandfathering into higher levels.  See section 4.1 Levels; Grandfathering.