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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2019, 02:06:54 PM

Title: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2019, 02:06:54 PM
https://www.nadac.com/january-2019-announcement-video/ (https://www.nadac.com/january-2019-announcement-video/)
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Amy McGovern on January 31, 2019, 05:45:34 PM
Chris, loving the new rules.  One quick question:  does the tugging mean they can now grab their leash at the end of a run and tug? 
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2019, 05:58:59 PM
Chris, loving the new rules.  One quick question:  does the tugging mean they can now grab their leash at the end of a run and tug? 

In June, Yes
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: knittingdog on January 31, 2019, 08:18:48 PM

So is Gamblers going to replace Chances or will it be another class added to the current lineup?

Robin
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2019, 09:45:35 PM

So is Gamblers going to replace Chances or will it be another class added to the current lineup?

Robin
Added to the lineup.


Gamblers and chances are so different in the skills required that it wouldnít make sense to replace it.

Itís not going to be a requirement for any natch or v natch awards.   That could be something that happens way down the road,  but for now weíre starting slow :)


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on February 01, 2019, 02:37:49 AM
I am respectively asking that clubs be allowed to choose to allow tugging or not in the ring as long as we put it in the premium.   

As a business owner, I am very uncomfortable with having dogs tug in the ring while another dog is in the ring.  Regardless of what other venues allow, I personally belief it is unsafe to have two dogs in the ring at once and one (or two not sure if dog can tug coming in ring) tugging.  So as a business owner, I am asking to please allow clubs to  choose if they want to take the risk and liability on.     People have different opinions on this, but I am hoping not to be forced to allow an activity that I feel may endanger dogs at my trials. 

I think it is really unfair to the person coming to the line that is working hard to stay connected with their dog and they walk in the ring and the dog in the ring is tugging- and many dogs are very vocal tuggers.   All that connection stuff is gone in that millisecond and this can at best just ruin the dogs run as he is distracted now; at worst the dog charges the tugging dog and there is a dog fight.   It is not worth it to me to allow an activity that I believe could cause these issues. 

Thank you for your consideration
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Maureen deHaan on February 01, 2019, 02:57:23 AM
I have to agree with Lisa on this - people pay good $$ to run their dogs - and if a tugging dog in the ring ( or on the way out of the ring or behind the ring) - ruins the concentration of said dog or scares the dog whatever - they lose their money - I know I'd be pretty pissed - I know you said Chris, to be respectful of others but truth be told - people are just too myopic to pay attention to others or care. 

Please let clubs choose if they want to do it or not - pretty please


#2 - random thoughts on price increase -

With the price increase to clubs to be able to hold trials (which I totally understand by they way) Do you feel that small clubs who count on entry fees to pay for trial costs and have very small trials (speaking of mine in particular)  will lose customers bc the price increase (2x over to both NADAC and judges)  will have to trickle down to the competitors and they will either not want to pay it or enter fewer runs  - and this is a luxury item - if people can't / don't want to pay a higher price then clubs like mine go out of the trial hosting business. Just thinking out loud -
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: KarissaKS on February 01, 2019, 05:35:32 AM
In all of my years competing in other organizations, I have literally never seen a loose dog go after a tugging dog (at the start or finish). Some dogs bark a lot coming into the ring or leaving the ring -- isn't that equally as disruptive to many dogs?
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: BeckyAH on February 01, 2019, 06:23:11 AM
I see quite a few people who are planning on coming back to NADAC even on a local level because of the change to allow toys for training in Novice and Intro - and to allow tugging on leashes at the end of a run.   I am HOPING this off sets some of the increased fees (which I do understand is needed), because I don't have a max number of runs per trial, I have a max amount of money.  So the money I give clubs really can't increase.   I have some nerves about my smaller local clubs, because I love them and I don't want those trials to go away. This isn't a complaint about NADAC or increasing prices, just me worrying.

The post run tugging - man, I don't know.  I've got one dog who doesn't tug anyway (not toy driven), one dog who would probably benefit, and one dog who, uh, absolutely does not need any more arousal if I want my runs not to fall apart.  That last dog is also pretty environmentally sensitive and not a big fan of other dogs who appear to be 'out of control'.   Would she leave me to go after a dog tugging on the other side of a ring?  No.  Would she be likely to lose her shit about it on the line?  Honestly?  Maybe.  Would we lose connection? Yep.  The noises involved are not even remotely similar to a dog excitement barking at the start line, or running and neither is her response (ie: she has none to *barking* dogs, but growling ones thrashing around are entirely different).

But see the first paragraph:  I know people who are willing to come back because they can tug so I'm pretty inclined to just grit my teeth and work through it in the name of increased revenue for clubs who need it.   Because I'd rather have dogs tugging leaving the ring at a trial than no trial, by rather a lot.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: danforth on February 01, 2019, 06:54:38 AM
If the dog that is leaving the ring is tugging and generating excitement,  could the entering dog have the option of not entering the ring until the excited dog has exited.   That might help the handler keep connected to their dog who is about to start.   Once dog has left the ring, then bring your dog into the ring expecting to set up and release right away.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 01, 2019, 07:00:37 AM
We can definitely discuss it.

Let me ask you all this, how is this any different than a dog who non stop barks while running?

A good example is my dog Spree, if we have to follow a dog who barks non stop, we might as well not run because her mind will be gone.

Is this a training issue, or a rule issue?   Should we ban barking dogs?

As of right now, a person could be tugging directly outside the ring where you are about to enter and run, and they do.   Why has this issue never came up with those dogs?
I think the important part to remember is that it's a probationary test.    If it doesn't work out, then it'll leave.   But I think it's a bit early for anyone to say whether it's going to be this terrible thing, when it's still 6 months from it even happening.

And I would like to know whether we should be banning those barking dogs, cause that would make my Q rate go up!
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 01, 2019, 07:07:47 AM


#2 - random thoughts on price increase -

With the price increase to clubs to be able to hold trials (which I totally understand by they way) Do you feel that small clubs who count on entry fees to pay for trial costs and have very small trials (speaking of mine in particular)  will lose customers bc the price increase (2x over to both NADAC and judges)  will have to trickle down to the competitors and they will either not want to pay it or enter fewer runs  - and this is a luxury item - if people can't / don't want to pay a higher price then clubs like mine go out of the trial hosting business. Just thinking out loud -


It's hard to say.    Is it possible, yes.    I'm hoping we will get more people by making the business all around a bit better.

What I can say for 100% sure is that without more people working for NADAC, we are at capacity.     So that means emails take longer to answer, forms are outdated, website gets outdated, and improvements pretty much won't happen because we don't have the man power to make it happen.     So the only choice I can really make is the one that moves the venue forward.    And we'll do everything we can for the smaller clubs to keep them in business
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: DiCasino on February 01, 2019, 07:11:49 AM
If you ban barking dogs, I believe it would be called cat agility! lol
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: KellyDittmar on February 01, 2019, 07:20:04 AM
Let me ask you all this, how is this any different than a dog who non stop barks while running?

A good example is my dog Spree, if we have to follow a dog who barks non stop, we might as well not run because her mind will be gone.

Is this a training issue, or a rule issue?   Should we ban barking dogs?

As of right now, a person could be tugging directly outside the ring where you are about to enter and run, and they do.   Why has this issue never came up with those dogs?
I think the important part to remember is that it's a probationary test.    If it doesn't work out, then it'll leave.   But I think it's a bit early for anyone to say whether it's going to be this terrible thing, when it's still 6 months from it even happening.

And I would like to know whether we should be banning those barking dogs, cause that would make my Q rate go up!

I think that's a great question & a great point, Chris! Around here, we have a few non-stop barking dogs, and a few dogs that can't handle it... I know people who have (will & do) move their dogs because of those other dogs... I also know that many of the handlers who have barking dogs do try to discourage it because they don't want to have a negative impact on someone else's run. I know some have either given up or don't give a crud. It always hurts me, on a personal level, to see someone with a frantically barking dog and a handler that does nothing to try to settle and quiet them. And the reason it hurts me is because I believe we're a community - sharing this crazy game with our dogs and each other. At the end of the day - when people run their last run with their partner - I don't hear them saying "if we had just Q'd more" - I hear them talking about the joy of the experience with their dog and the friendships they made along the way... and because that's what I hear - that's what I try to foster in the events I participate in. Community rather than "me". And Lord knows I fail at this time and time again, but that doesn't mean I stop trying. Incidentally - i don't think I'm alone in this community feeling. I think it's why you have the experience right now that you've mentioned before about aggressive dogs and people who don't want to tell NADAC even though they know the dog is a safety risk. You care about the people in your community and most people don't want to rat out their friends!

To the "training issue" concept... I think we can all discuss it endlessly. Is your dog's barking a training issue? or my dog's intolerance? But you could flip it around (as it has been) and say "Is your dog's targeting and tugging on their leash a training issue?" The world is a "training issue" sometimes!

In terms of the "tugging directly outside of the ring" - I thought that you had to be 10 feet from the ring right now? Are people already disrespecting that rule?

(And speaking of the dog ban... check the list - when i saw it a few weeks back, there was someone who was banned until sometime last year who was still showing on the list.)

Kelly
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Amy McGovern on February 01, 2019, 07:21:02 AM
We can definitely discuss it.

Let me ask you all this, how is this any different than a dog who non stop barks while running?

Speaking as the owner of one of those barking dogs, I always try to be respectful to the person ahead of me.  I ask them if they mind that she barks.  We try our best but she nearly always screams as we enter the ring.  It's her breed and it's how she expresses herself.  I've found if someone says their dog is bothered by mine that the gate has always let us reorder the dogs.  And at the most recent show (where I was running both my quiet dog and my loud dog nearly back to back as my son was out of town), I was able to find someone trustworthy to hold my loud dog and keep her quiet during the quiet dog's run (this is not something just anyone can do or understand, I've discovered.). With all of that said, I would hope that other loud dog owners are respectful.  I know I would be sure to move my dog in the running order if someone asked me to!  But if I was told that loud dogs were banned?  I'd quit the venue with ALL of my dogs.  (I realize you are being facetious on this as you would easily lose 25-40% of your running dogs if you banned barking.  And mine isn't the loudest dog running by any means!).

Maybe the best answer it just to have people be respectful!

-Amy
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: bettyj.carter on February 01, 2019, 07:22:27 AM
All prices go up....fact of life. Still the best bargain for agility!! Even we have to pay a little bit more. I love all the things NADAC has done in the recent years, well worth the money...I'm staying!!
However, if you ban barking dogs, you might not let me stay. LOL!! I'm pretty sure my high drive sheltie will bark much less entering and exiting the ring if he is mildly tugging on his leash. Luckily, he is a very polite tugger!! I'm excited to see what happens!!
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: BeckyAH on February 01, 2019, 07:34:44 AM
We can definitely discuss it.

Let me ask you all this, how is this any different than a dog who non stop barks while running?

A good example is my dog Spree, if we have to follow a dog who barks non stop, we might as well not run because her mind will be gone.

Is this a training issue, or a rule issue?   Should we ban barking dogs?

As of right now, a person could be tugging directly outside the ring where you are about to enter and run, and they do.   Why has this issue never came up with those dogs?
I think the important part to remember is that it's a probationary test.    If it doesn't work out, then it'll leave.   But I think it's a bit early for anyone to say whether it's going to be this terrible thing, when it's still 6 months from it even happening.

And I would like to know whether we should be banning those barking dogs, cause that would make my Q rate go up!

I think it's a training issue, but I think it's not exactly the same.

A dog playing with a toy - leash here - loudly and enthusiastically is not going to be the same level of distraction as a dog who is excitement barking.  Both because of the presence of a toy (and many of our dogs are very toy driven) and the nature of the dog's vocalization and movement (which are radically different, and often more excited and/or aggressive sounding).

Still a training issue/something that can be dealt with, but it is a, shall we say, a higher level of difficulty in the distraction training than a dog doing the course who barks.  Even if they're nonstop barking.  They're not growling, flailing, and playing with a toy.  Plus they're IN THE RING which means the dog that's not tugging is also in a state of higher arousal than even 10 feet outside it.

I'm fine with doing the training, provided my dog losing her shit a little at the start line when she first sees this in a trial  doesn't get *her* kicked out.   But the difficulty level is higher and I think it's a thing that should be acknowledged, along with the aspect of 'this has never been a thing these dogs have seen in the ring before' and some tolerance is extended during the period where people ARE training it.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 01, 2019, 08:02:41 AM
I think folks might also be over estimating what is going to be happening here.

1) Feet can't leave the ground.  In other words, aggressive tugging is not allowed.
2) Even right now if someone is disruptive at the finish line, they should be getting a talk from the judge.  This could be a handler screaming excitedly for their dog, distracting the incoming dog
3) Dogs still have to leave the ring in a timely manner.  If someone is just hanging out tugging, they will be talked to
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: KellyDittmar on February 01, 2019, 08:25:30 AM
I think folks might also be over estimating what is going to be happening here.

1) Feet can't leave the ground.  In other words, aggressive tugging is not allowed.
2) Even right now if someone is disruptive at the finish line, they should be getting a talk from the judge.  This could be a handler screaming excitedly for their dog, distracting the incoming dog
3) Dogs still have to leave the ring in a timely manner.  If someone is just hanging out tugging, they will be talked to

So I think what I'm unclear about is what's driving this change? Dogs have been allowed to pick up their leash for a while now. Handlers have had to put the leash on the dog, and the dog can leave the ring with their mouth around their leash. That's legal today (Feb 1, 2019) as i understand it. The only difference is now the handler can engage with the dog's leash rather than just calmly leaving until they are 10 feet from the ring to tug.

Kelly
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 01, 2019, 08:41:07 AM
The drive for the change is that it works perfectly okay in every other venue,  so why have a rule that doesnít have any benefit,  and is actually a detriment to some dogs who need the reward.

I think folks are putting a bit too much thought into this.

If you go to England youíll see Agility shows with 800+ dogs,  they all tug.   Agility over there is doing just dandy,  no life ending cases of aggression or anything else.    Updating an outdated rule is the driving force.


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: BeckyAH on February 01, 2019, 08:59:01 AM
I don't know.   I don't know every dog.  I know that if I played tug with my dogs, feet would stay on the ground but they would absolutely be thrashing back and forth with it and growling.

You are right though, if it's still 'leash the dog and leave' the duration shouldn't be a real issue or issue at all.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Donna & Gracie on February 01, 2019, 09:07:58 AM
Gamblers... I may be jumping the gun with this question. Nadac is allowing ďgrandfatheringĒ from other venueís,  so handlers  may be able to start at an elite level in gamblers if they participate in other venues at an elite level of a comparable class to gamblers, is that correct? What about those of us that only do Nadac. Will our dogs who have been running elite for years have to start in Novice like when we started hoopers, and barrelers or can they opt to try elite? Just wondering if this may be a disadvantage for some.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 01, 2019, 09:14:03 AM
Gamblers... I may be jumping the gun with this question. Nadac is allowing ďgrandfatheringĒ from other venueís,  so handlers  may be able to start at an elite level in gamblers if they participate in other venues at an elite level of a comparable class to gamblers, is that correct? What about those of us that only do Nadac. Will our dogs who have been running elite for years have to start in Novice like when we started hoopers, and barrelers or can they opt to try elite? Just wondering if this may be a disadvantage for some.
The handlers who havenít been doing gamblers,  probably want to start in Novice.

Itís a very different game from anything we have,  if youíre Nadac only it would be a very bad idea to just jump into elite gamblers when you havenít honed the skills needed,  situational awareness, awareness of time, counting points,  knowing your dogs speed for how many points you can get in the time allowed, setting up for a gamble.

Yes Nadac only folks will need to start at Novice if they donít have that experience in another venue,  which is intentional.   It would be a train wreck to see folks who havenít done gamblers in 15+ years, or never at all, try to do an elite level class.


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: MoabDiane on February 01, 2019, 10:02:15 AM
Interesting, but Iím laughing to myself.  Loved NADACís old gamblers!   Have had good success in USDAA gamblers (Brackenís retirement run from USDAA was that!).  Looking forward to hearing more, but also wishing more info was forthcoming sooner than later - perhaps for me but also others who might want to prepare for this new game.  Many of us would like to play, not excited about starting in novice, and havenít seen or heard anything from those who ďtestedĒ it.

Bring it on!
Diane
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 01, 2019, 10:27:18 AM
Interesting, but Iím laughing to myself.  Loved NADACís old gamblers!   Have had good success in USDAA gamblers (Brackenís retirement run from USDAA was that!).  Looking forward to hearing more, but also wishing more info was forthcoming sooner than later - perhaps for me but also others who might want to prepare for this new game.  Many of us would like to play, not excited about starting in novice, and havenít seen or heard anything from those who ďtestedĒ it.

Bring it on!
Diane

We should have some detailed info out by the end of this month :)
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: KellyDittmar on February 01, 2019, 10:45:44 AM
We should have some detailed info out by the end of this month :)

Can this include a map? I'm really curious to know what it will look like!

Thanks!
Kelly
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: mdenisef@yahoo.com on February 01, 2019, 12:03:26 PM

So is Gamblers going to replace Chances or will it be another class added to the current lineup?

Robin
Added to the lineup.


Gamblers and chances are so different in the skills required that it wouldnít make sense to replace it.

Itís not going to be a requirement for any natch or v natch awards.   That could be something that happens way down the road,  but for now weíre starting slow :)


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Just a thought for the future - if "way down the road" you are considering including gamblers as part of a natch, perhaps you could modify the "Chances" requirement for a regular natch from needing 130 chances points to needing a total of 130 points from chances and/or gamblers? Just a thought for those of us that are struggling to get all our chances points! The skills might be different but perhaps the two skill sets are or can be made equally challenging?
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 01, 2019, 12:11:47 PM

So is Gamblers going to replace Chances or will it be another class added to the current lineup?

Robin
Added to the lineup.


Gamblers and chances are so different in the skills required that it wouldnít make sense to replace it.

Itís not going to be a requirement for any natch or v natch awards.   That could be something that happens way down the road,  but for now weíre starting slow :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just a thought for the future - if "way down the road" you are considering including gamblers as part of a natch, perhaps you could modify the "Chances" requirement for a regular natch from needing 130 chances points to needing a total of 130 points from chances and/or gamblers? Just a thought for those of us that are struggling to get all our chances points! The skills might be different but perhaps the two skill sets are or can be made equally challenging?
Something to think about for sure.

We definitely wonít be making it a requirement for anything anytime soon though, have to give people a chance to try it and like it before we do too much :)


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Kim_S on February 01, 2019, 05:10:55 PM
It sounds like good business decisions are being made to make NADAC more attractive to people competing in other organizations. Its great that tugging will be allowed and also training in the ring.  Smart changes.  For people who are concerned about tugging distracting their NADAC only dogs, the tugging I tend to see at USDAA is no big deal.  In most cases the dog is more or less heeling with the leash in its mouth, tugging as the handler exits the ring.  Its not a big tug fest in the ring.  Kim
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Cindy on February 01, 2019, 09:01:04 PM
Gamblers... I may be jumping the gun with this question. Nadac is allowing ďgrandfatheringĒ from other venueís,  so handlers  may be able to start at an elite level in gamblers if they participate in other venues at an elite level of a comparable class to gamblers, is that correct? What about those of us that only do Nadac. Will our dogs who have been running elite for years have to start in Novice like when we started hoopers, and barrelers or can they opt to try elite? Just wondering if this may be a disadvantage for some.
The handlers who havenít been doing gamblers,  probably want to start in Novice.

Itís a very different game from anything we have,  if youíre Nadac only it would be a very bad idea to just jump into elite gamblers when you havenít honed the skills needed,  situational awareness, awareness of time, counting points,  knowing your dogs speed for how many points you can get in the time allowed, setting up for a gamble.

Yes Nadac only folks will need to start at Novice if they donít have that experience in another venue,  which is intentional.   It would be a train wreck to see folks who havenít done gamblers in 15+ years, or never at all, try to do an elite level class.


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This doesn't impact me since I have a puppy, but this feels a little backwards.  People who have never done NADAC are allowed to start in Elite in any class even though it may be a "train wreck" and they may discover they need to move down, but the NADAC loyalists who only do NADAC - many of whom ran Gamblers "back in the day" - have to start in Novice for the "new class" because they don't have the skills?  NADAC only people should be the best prepared for NADAC style challenges....and the best judges of what level they and their dogs will likely be successful at in NADAC.  The time and obstacle strategy may be new for some, but that can be practiced for.

I understand you're trying to attract other venue people, and one way of doing that is to let them start at the level they think is fair based on their titles.  I'm not sure I agree with that, but since you've chosen to extend that courtesy to people who haven't traditionally supported NADAC in the hopes that they will going forward, it seems like when you add a new class this same courtesy should be extended to people who have supported NADAC for years, and worked through the levels to get their dogs to Elite.

Traditionally people have been required to start in Novice when new classes have been added, and people in Elite either did it or just didn't play the new class, but that rule applied to everyone equally.  This feels like you're favoring other venue folk over your loyal customers.....or at the very least taking your loyal customers for granted and assuming they will remain loyal even if they aren't getting equal treatment.

I know you're working hard to grow NADAC, but while you're looking to attract people who have never done NADAC, please also remember the feelings and support of the people who have ONLY done NADAC - some for many, many years.  We're used to other venue people looking down on us, but we shouldn't feel like we're being looked down on by NADAC.  If other venue people are being given the option of taking the risk of crashing and burning in all classes, then NADAC people with Elite dogs should be given that same option in Gamblers!

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: dogrsqr on February 02, 2019, 03:04:37 AM
Very well said Cindy!!!!! I agree with everything you said. 

If someone with an Excellent FAST title can enter elite Chances someone with an Elite Chances title should be able to enter Elite Gamblers. 
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: rondadillard on February 02, 2019, 03:15:32 AM
re. Grandfathering into the Gambler class from Chances question - The piece people are missing is the timing element in the new Gamblers class. While titles in Chances means you have the distance skills in a set sequence, classes like AKC's FAST and USDAA's Gamblers require you to plan your own course in a specific amount of time. The timing element, along with designing a course best for YOUR dog, are skills not tested in Chances.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2019, 03:20:28 AM
Weíll discuss it.

We can even put it to a vote.

It is not even close, or in the same ballpark of a test of skills comparable to elite chances.   

But as youíve said,  if people want to fail because of a perceived issue of someone else who has practiced those skills being more welcomed then thatís their choice.   It can be a vote.


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2019, 03:25:21 AM
Also as a side note. 

These changes have nothing to do with bringing in other venue people.  If it does,  cool.

But that is not the intended goal for any changes we make.   We have goals for nadac and weíre making changes to reach them.   But it has nothing to do with other venues.

/rant


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: dogrsqr on February 02, 2019, 03:41:39 AM
Just because I only trial in NADAC doesnít mean we donít run those games in class.  My dogs also perform a teeter in class. 

Someone with an Excellent FAST title likely doesnít have the distance skills required for Elite Chances either. 
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on February 02, 2019, 03:46:07 AM
Barking dogs and tugging are two entirely different things.      Dogs bark.....and no matter how much some people try to train that out of them...they cant. They are dogs and they bark.   Tugging in an entirely elective activity.     People are choosing to tug with their dogs.    So these are not comparable issues.


 It is much easier to type on the forum than on facebook :) ..so I have some questions:

TUGGING:
1-Is tugging allowed when a dog enters the ring ?  So can a dog tug on the start-line while another dog in running?

2-So we are allowed to have a toy attached to the leash, correct?  So I can attach my holee roller to the end of the leash?  How is NADAC defining an acceptable toy?

3-Is it now allowed for a dog to target the leash??  I assume this will happen regardless, because If I am the leash runner, I dont want to be handing a leash with a toy attached to it to the handler so it is going on the ground.

4- I hope we are going to loosen up the dog has to be in the ring while the other dog is running to allow teams that are uncomfortable with dogs tugging and playing with toys in the ring more time to come into the ring.  which will add hours to the day..but I am fine with that.    If people are getting different options to end their runs, then people should have option to be wait to enter the ring the start their run.    It is more important for me to be connected when I walk in the ring and start my run than for me to be able to instantaneously reward my dog in the ring. My dogs totally understand that in a few seconds as I walk outside the ring, they will be rewarded with food that is coming out of my pocket.


Regarding Gamblers-
I am pretty damn confident in my ability and frankly most of my NADAC only friends to be able to handle an Elite Gamblers course even though I/we have not done it in 15 years.   If you are going grandfather other classes in, then to be fair, Chances should count as well.   If we have our Elite Chances title then we can go in Elite Gamblers.    If we suck, we can always go back down :)

BTW, I like the option of adding Gamblers as an option for All Around NATCH. That seems like a win win for everyone.  For those that dont like or dont want to do hoopers and barrelers, they can do Gamblers. For those of us that LOVE barriers and Hoopers, then we have that option as well.


 





Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Maureen deHaan on February 02, 2019, 05:04:22 AM
Again - I have to agree with Lisa RE: Gamblers - I really don't understand WHY if I have a gazillion chances points   or at least a NATCH - I have to start over in Gamblers - seems a bit inequitable to say the lease

RE: barking dogs - there is barking and then there is BARKING - stress / overstimulated / loud scary  barking is a lot different than barking for joy - Chris, I understand where you are coming from re barking - bc I also think it is rude when people allow their dog (big or small) to stand behind the ring or in the chute or in their crate / expen ringside and bark at their backs /sides, fronts or their movement -

A dog barking repeatedly in a demanding / aggressive / stressed way is sending way too much unbalanced energy - whether it be in the ring , near the ring or in a crate in the trial area and it should be discouraged.

There is tugging and there is TUGGING - a dog hanging on to its leash and pulling quietly while the handler is being passive is a lot less distracting(?) that a team playing a big game of high movement / growly / intense tug -

I guess there are extremes - and who is the judge on that? everyone has their own comfort levels - which is why I don't think it should be allowed - and then if people are already talking about not entering the ring - well that's a training issue then - it just gets very complicated

I understand it is probationary - but I still wish you'd let the club decide if they want to allow it or not

Thanks for listening
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2019, 05:13:55 AM
I guess I am a little worn out guys.

This happens every single time a rule changes.  Every freaks out, then the rule takes place, and life goes on.

Everyone was upset about X-Hoopers going away.   Yet it's okay now.
People were upset about the start line training rules, yet that worked out great.
People were upset about the contact update, yet that worked out.
People were upset about every rule change that ever happens.   

I really wish folks would at the very least give this a shot, before completely shutting it down in their heads.
I am taking a step back from this for awhile.   
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: dogrsqr on February 02, 2019, 05:26:05 AM
Chris I have lots more questions but already decided to cut you a break.  Iím sure this is tough for you but pleae understand itís also tough for those of us who have been relatively NADAC exclusive for 20 years.  If at some point you feel up to it and would like to share your general overall vision for change I would be interested in hearing what it is.

From a personal perspective as a person who was in charge of roadway projects that affected people on a very personal level, this is equivalent to the first open house meeting when people find out what the plan is.  Itís never easy.  People need time to vent and really just want to feel like theyíre being heard and their concerns are being considered.  It eventually works out and some people sell their house and leave.  Some people stick around even though they are not 100% happy with the end result i.e.  Iím still not happy about Hoopers going away so I choose not to enter hoopers.

Get some rest.

Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on February 02, 2019, 05:54:00 AM
I've been following ALL the posts on this thread and agree with "dogrsqr" that people want to know they are being listened to.  Chris, you are correct that every time a change is made people get upset.   

"Everyone was upset about X-Hoopers going away.   Yet it's okay now."

Personally, I liked X-Hoopers and much preferred the gates to the current Hoopers class, but I kept entering the class because "I" wanted an All Around NATCH.  It's still not okay with me.

"People were upset about the start line training rules, yet that worked out great.
People were upset about the contact update, yet that worked out.
People were upset about every rule change that ever happens."

These are rule changes that help teams, not penalize them. 

Re: Tugging - this "may" help some teams but it will definitely hurt others.  As Lisa said, it is not a natural behavior for dogs.  As a trial chair, anything that adds time to the trial day will affect how many/which classes we will offer, not to mention the possible liability for dog on dog/people issues.

Re:  Gamblers - I've been competing in NADAC since 2001 and ran the "old" Gamblers until it was changed to Chances.  I feel completely confident I could compete in Elite Gamblers with my 2 current Elite Chances dogs.  I don't think it is fair that I should have to go back to Novice with these dogs.  It remains to be seen if I will even enter Gamblers.  I'm in the same boat as Becky AH with a limited amount of funds to spend at any given trial.

Bottom line - I will continue to compete in NADAC because I love almost everything about NADAC!!
Thanks for allowing this discussion to continue. 
Linda 
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: BeckyAH on February 02, 2019, 06:09:21 AM
Having read more discussion and remarks from Chris re: tugging, I am personally less concerned.  I think what he is envisioning is that things run normally entering the ring, and running the course.  Then the dog is allowed to get the toy on the leash or the end of the leash, while they have the leash put on, and there is some tension on the leash as the dog leaves the ring.  No tugging within 10 feet of another dog means that there is still a buffer outside of the ring, and the dogs are in and out pretty fast.

I absolutely agree this should still be a problem, and  I own one of the dogs it could be a problem for -  but there's still only one dog off leash at a time and the dog leaving isn't hanging out in the ring so while I think it might well impact my runs, I don't think it's going to result in dangerous altercations.  I also think she'll get used to it and that if it runs well it won't be a particularly big deal for most.   I also think most people probably aren't even going to bother with runs and, once realizing who is tugging, run order changes are likely to happen to help accommodate dogs who really don't do well with it and overall it'll be ok.  I do realize this relies on competitors, judges, ring crew, being cooperative and maybe some more strict management of the exit gate (ie: FFS STOP HANGING OUT THERE TO TALK) and that it will be easier to have go well at some locations than others.

I do empathize both with the hatred of change (I don't like it, almost ever, it stresses me out and scares me) and being tired with people freaking out. 

I'm not telling anyone what to do, but I am going to take some time, some deep breaths, quell my anxiety and see how this plays out come June.   I *think* I understand what Chris is trying to do with all these changes, and overall that's an admirable thing.  We'll see how it goes and then get a chance to vote on it.

(Though Chris? Stepping away is good.  Sometimes people just need to flail around and hash things out in their heads and maybe even complain for a while.  It's ok.  It doesn't mean you're bad or we're mad at you.  In most cases it's just a way of dealing, so stepping away and letting people is smart. )
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Foomin Z on February 02, 2019, 06:54:59 AM
It had not occurred to me that dogs would target the leash when finishing the run. I have seen it at other organizations though. Perhaps the leash runner handing the leash to the handler should be the exception instead of the rule, if tugging is going to be allowed in the ring. That is, the leash should always be placed on a chair or the ground instead of being held by the leash runner. It seems like the leash runner holding it at the end of the course may be at risk.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2019, 06:59:09 AM
It had not occurred to me that dogs would target the leash when finishing the run. I have seen it at other organizations though. Perhaps the leash runner handing the leash to the handler should be the exception instead of the rule, if tugging is going to be allowed in the ring. That is, the leash should always be placed on a chair or the ground instead of being held by the leash runner. It seems like the leash runner holding it at the end of the course may be at risk.
That would be the handler needing to tell the leash runner to drop the leash.

If the dog jumps on the leash runner that is an elimination as always.

So if someone wants to tug they just say drop my leash please.


The majority of people still wonít be tugging,  so that will make it easier for everyone.

Iím also a big pusher or having a chair with a bucket at the last obstacle that the leash gets put into,  but thatís just me.


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Amanda Nelson on February 02, 2019, 07:09:21 AM
So what about people who are screaming and whooping at the end of the run while the dog is jumping in the air?
That is an elective behavior. 

Or someone who is whipping their dogs behind their legs and doing heeling patterns? That is elective, and I have a couple of students dogs who have issues with that.

On a personal level, my dog has an issue with dogs who finish and jump into their owners arms, she thinks this looks like lots of fun and I lose her at the start line when the team before me does it. But that is also an elective action. 

I am ranting a bit and I am sure this will come off wrong. :-)

But Chris and myself have said MULTIPLE times, tugging can only happen with all four feet on the ground, and it MUST be polite. So if someone is yelling and flinging their dog through the air, they will be talked to.

Can we make everyone happy? No we cannot. But this is something we have gotten emails about for YEARS and we decided to try it as a probationary test run and I personally feel it is getting blown way out of proportion.

Amanda




Barking dogs and tugging are two entirely different things.      Dogs bark.....and no matter how much some people try to train that out of them...they cant. They are dogs and they bark.   Tugging in an entirely elective activity.     People are choosing to tug with their dogs.    So these are not comparable issues.





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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Amy McGovern on February 02, 2019, 07:48:47 AM
I think it will be fun.  My dog loves to tug and her leash is designed to tug (we bought it from a wonderful vendor named rush to tug).  I always have to work on a firm DROP IT when she tries to grab it at the end of the run.  My solution has been to carry her out of the ring as that way she can't tug.  I think this will relieve a lot of stress at the end of the run for me (and for her since she loves tugging).  I'm all for trying it and seeing how it works.

p.s. I'm excited about all the new rules.  Gamblers was my husband's favorite class to run with his dog.  I told him it was coming back and he lit up.  Maybe he will run again!  He stopped when his dog died and only runs my dogs if I'm sick but I bet this gets him to try running my dogs in that class!
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Billie Rosen on February 02, 2019, 08:26:30 AM
Chris, when you say tugging, I assume you mean tugging with a leash?  Not with a toy attached to the leash?

I agree 100% that we need  more clarification of these rule changes (which will be forthcoming), but that people are panicking before the new rules have even been tried.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2019, 08:31:33 AM
We're debating right now the ability to have a small, reasonable toy attached to the leash.

If the dog is going to play with the leash when the run is over, the toy really isn't that much different.
Same reward, same behavior.

I would start pushing clubs to have a bucket at the finish line, so when a handler asks for their leash on the ground it goes in the bucket, and not just sitting on the ground so we don't run into issues with targeting at the finish line.

I suppose my confusion is this.

The run is over.   All we care about is the performance of the dog between the first and last obstacles.   Why not let people reward their dogs?  The main argument is that it's distracting to other dogs.   Which I disagree.  Many things are distracting to other dogs, that doens't mean we don't allow them.    Lots of people have mentioned it's an aggressive behavior, yet I haven't seen a certified behaviorist say anything.  And the few certified people that I do know, have zero issue with tugging from a behavior standpoint.   

What is the difference in a dog grabbing a leash to tug after they have been leashed up, or grabbing a tug toy attached directly to that same leash?

I wouldn't want the toy to be removable from the leash, cause that would be an issue.  But if it's just an extension of the leash, why are we so against it?
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: dogrsqr on February 02, 2019, 08:59:58 AM
Exactly Chris.  If your dog is tugging with their leash, than the leash is a toy.  If weíre going to let dogs tug on their leash a toy on the leash is no different.  Iím talking about a braided leash that has a tennis ball as a handle, incorporated into the leash.  Iíve seen them in other venues. 

Gina
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2019, 09:01:51 AM
Exactly Chris.  If your dog is tugging with their leash, than the leash is a toy.  If weíre going to let dogs tug on their leash a toy on the leash is no different.  Iím talking about a braided leash that has a tennis ball as a handle, incorporated into the leash.  Iíve seen them in other venues. 

Gina
I would have no issue with that.

I think a size limit would need to be out into place.  Somebody mentioned a giant holy roller which I think is a bit much :)


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: DataHound on February 02, 2019, 09:04:41 AM
Three questions regarding the bonus program changes.

First, with changing how Bonus runs will be scored, does this impact what is necessary for the videos, assuming that video submission will still be required? Currently my understanding is the video follows the dog and does need to show the handler the entire time. With the new scoring it seems that it would be necessary to be able to see the handler and the dog at all times so that whether points are given for each sequence can be determined. Where I trial that would likely require having 2 videographers to get everything which honestly I would not be too fond of since it is challenging to get one sometimes. I do like the change for consistency with Champs just trying to think things through.

Second, will Champs requirements for Stakes change?

Third, will the distance challenge ďprogramĒ be impacted?

Thanks
Sandy T., Flynn and JoJo
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2019, 09:19:38 AM
Three questions regarding the bonus program changes.

First, with changing how Bonus runs will be scored, does this impact what is necessary for the videos, assuming that video submission will still be required? Currently my understanding is the video follows the dog and does need to show the handler the entire time. With the new scoring it seems that it would be necessary to be able to see the handler and the dog at all times so that whether points are given for each sequence can be determined. Where I trial that would likely require having 2 videographers to get everything which honestly I would not be too fond of since it is challenging to get one sometimes. I do like the change for consistency with Champs just trying to think things through.

Second, will Champs requirements for Stakes change?

Third, will the distance challenge ďprogramĒ be impacted?

Thanks
Sandy T., Flynn and JoJo


1). Only one video will be required,  generally rely on handlers playing nice and staying within their boundaries if the video canít show them 100% stepping out.   But weíre looking into some other options for this as well involving the on site judge.

2) they will change to reflect the new criteria.  It wonít be a massive deviation from the current criteria.   If youíre getting bonuses now and qualifying for champs you will still be good with the updated criteria.

3) distance challenges will have the same criteria of 4 sections per course :)


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Cindy on February 02, 2019, 09:32:31 AM
Also as a side note. 

These changes have nothing to do with bringing in other venue people.  If it does,  cool.

But that is not the intended goal for any changes we make.   We have goals for nadac and weíre making changes to reach them.   But it has nothing to do with other venues.

/rant

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Sorry, Chris.  I didn't mean to offend you at all.  I guess I combined your comments on wanting to increase participation in NADAC with the change of allowing people with titles in other venues to start at a level other than Novice and drew a faulty conclusion.  My bad.

I also know that you are supportive of the NADAC loyalists who have been there since the beginning.  I know you wouldn't intentionally slight us.  My point was just that there are many of us out here who ran the old Gamblers class and remember the planning and strategy required.  How that translates to the new Gamblers class is yet to be seen.....but that is equally true of people who have run FAST or similar classes in other organizations.  We're all taking our best guess as to how those skills transfer.....just as someone with a title in USDAA is guessing how those skills will transfer to Elite NADAC. 

If I had a dog who was in Elite and a class was added, it would feel a little weird that some people in Elite were able to enter that new class at the Elite level because they had a title in another organization, but I had to start in Novice because I decided 20+ years ago to only give my agility dollars to NADAC.  Now would I start in Elite.....probably not.  I like doing things in the sequence they are designed.  But many people would and I could see a scenario where I might depending on the age of my dog and my goals.  I'm just suggesting that when a new class is added, everyone currently participating in NADAC should have the same option as to where to start in that class.  Whether that's everyone starts in Novice or everyone picks the level they think is best based on where they're at in a designated class isn't as important as everyone feeling they have the same options.....especially those people who have supported NADAC since the very beginning.

I hope that is more clear and less offensive to you as that really was not my intent.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2019, 09:44:13 AM
Also as a side note. 

These changes have nothing to do with bringing in other venue people.  If it does,  cool.

But that is not the intended goal for any changes we make.   We have goals for nadac and weíre making changes to reach them.   But it has nothing to do with other venues.

/rant

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Sorry, Chris.  I didn't mean to offend you at all.  I guess I combined your comments on wanting to increase participation in NADAC with the change of allowing people with titles in other venues to start at a level other than Novice and drew a faulty conclusion.  My bad.

I also know that you are supportive of the NADAC loyalists who have been there since the beginning.  I know you wouldn't intentionally slight us.  My point was just that there are many of us out here who ran the old Gamblers class and remember the planning and strategy required.  How that translates to the new Gamblers class is yet to be seen.....but that is equally true of people who have run FAST or similar classes in other organizations.  We're all taking our best guess as to how those skills transfer.....just as someone with a title in USDAA is guessing how those skills will transfer to Elite NADAC. 

If I had a dog who was in Elite and a class was added, it would feel a little weird that some people in Elite were able to enter that new class at the Elite level because they had a title in another organization, but I had to start in Novice because I decided 20+ years ago to only give my agility dollars to NADAC.  Now would I start in Elite.....probably not.  I like doing things in the sequence they are designed.  But many people would and I could see a scenario where I might depending on the age of my dog and my goals.  I'm just suggesting that when a new class is added, everyone currently participating in NADAC should have the same option as to where to start in that class.  Whether that's everyone starts in Novice or everyone picks the level they think is best based on where they're at in a designated class isn't as important as everyone feeling they have the same options.....especially those people who have supported NADAC since the very beginning.

I hope that is more clear and less offensive to you as that really was not my intent.
I am sorry as well.

Not going to lie about 3 too many issues all occurred over the last day and my patience is a little thinner than normal. 

If people want to enter at the elite level, with a title in Elite chances,  they can.    In the grand scheme of things like someone else mentioned it wonít matter.  They will either succeed which is great,  or they will fail and move down in levels until the skills are there.   Not my ideal situation, as I donít like to encourage failure, but if that is what the people want then we can do it.

I can understand the issue of seeing elite handlers from other venues starting at a higher level than nadac normies.     I just really hope our nadac folks donít get too offended when those same people do better at a game they have been playing consistently for longer than us.




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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: cindy.lubin1@gmail.com on February 02, 2019, 09:52:29 AM
I respectfully disagree with allowing tugging in the ring whether it be the leash itself or a small toy attached to the leash.  In doing so, it would provide an unfair advantage to those competing teams who find tugging to be a reward (and don't mind their dog tugging on the leash) by allowing them to immediately reward a run while in the ring.  If allowing tugging, then in order to be fair then, competitors should also be able to give their dogs whatever reward they use at the end of a run whether it is treats, a ball, frisbee whatever while in the ring.  If the issue is that some dogs try to grab at their leash when leaving the ring, I think it could be up to the judge's discretion as to how to handle these situations.  I've seen dogs that do attempt to grab at the leash, but handlers who clearly discourage the behavior until out of the ring when they can provide an appropriate reward.  I feel like minimal excited grabbing at the leash when it is discouraged/not reciprocated by the handler to not be something to cause an elimination of the run.   
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2019, 09:57:02 AM
I respectfully disagree with allowing tugging in the ring whether it be the leash itself or a small toy attached to the leash.  In doing so, it would provide an unfair advantage to those competing teams who find tugging to be a reward (and don't mind their dog tugging on the leash) by allowing them to immediately reward a run while in the ring.  If allowing tugging, then in order to be fair then, competitors should also be able to give their dogs whatever reward they use at the end of a run whether it is treats, a ball, frisbee whatever while in the ring.  If the issue is that some dogs try to grab at their leash when leaving the ring, I think it could be up to the judge's discretion as to how to handle these situations.  I've seen dogs that do attempt to grab at the leash, but handlers who clearly discourage the behavior until out of the ring when they can provide an appropriate reward.  I feel like minimal excited grabbing at the leash when it is discouraged/not reciprocated by the handler to not be something to cause an elimination of the run.   


Why are we against rewarding our dogs?

Is verbal praise not a reward?
Physical petting?

There are different rewards, vocal, physical, toys and treats.

We want to allow as many rewards as possible within reason.

If there was a way to guarantee that treats always hit a dogs mouth and didnít get lost on the ground I would allow treats as well.


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Jeanne Allen on February 02, 2019, 10:00:43 AM
Every time there is a rule change there will be a few people that will be upset.  That is just the way it is. 

With all of the discussion about grandfathering for Gamblers, I would really like to know more on how the new Gamblers is run before I can make any kind of vote on if to grandfather or not.  I did run the old style Gamblers back in the day, but Chris did mention that the new one is a bit different.  It would help me if we could see an example course map and brief rules.  Not all of us were at a Regional where this was tested.

Now as far as the tugging rule.  Personally I think this is being blown way out of proportion.  I could open a can of worms on this subject, but what I want to mention is not allowed in other venues so I will just leave it to your imagination as to what I am thinking about.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: dogrsqr on February 02, 2019, 10:22:55 AM
I might be wrong but I believe the new Gamblers was pretty similar to FAST.  I honestly donít see it as an issue for dogs that can do Elite Chances.  I have run ASCA Gamblers without having any problems.  Again no title as I was running FEO.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: JMDATX on February 02, 2019, 12:38:25 PM
Wait!  The leash runner doesn't have to hand deliver the leash to the handler, unless asked not to?  Thank you Chris!  It always feels like an awkward exchange at the end of the run.  Who gets to decide this? Is it the club or the judge?

What I like about the allowing tugging at the end is not having to watch the handlers whose dogs want to tug get them to not tug.  It usually involves the handler rushing to get the leash and then sternly telling the dog to not tug.  It's painful to watch. 

Jan

Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2019, 12:41:06 PM
Wait!  The leash runner doesn't have to hand deliver the leash to the handler, unless asked not to?  Thank you Chris!  It always feels like an awkward exchange at the end of the run.  Who gets to decide this? Is it the club or the judge?

What I like about the allowing tugging at the end is not having to watch the handlers whose dogs want to tug get them to not tug.  It usually involves the handler rushing to get the leash and then sternly telling the dog to not tug.  It's painful to watch. 

Jan

The default is for the leash runner to hand off the leash, to help speed up the trial.   But if the handler requests the leash to be left on the ground then it can be done that way.

You just say Ď leash on the ground pleaseí as youíre coming in


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Maureen deHaan on February 02, 2019, 12:58:34 PM
I guess I am a little worn out guys.

This happens every single time a rule changes.  Every freaks out, then the rule takes place, and life goes on.

Everyone was upset about X-Hoopers going away.   Yet it's okay now.
People were upset about the start line training rules, yet that worked out great.
People were upset about the contact update, yet that worked out.
People were upset about every rule change that ever happens.   

I really wish folks would at the very least give this a shot, before completely shutting it down in their heads.
I am taking a step back from this for awhile.

Hi Chris - sorry you are feeling worn out - really I do - & I know it's not just because of my comments / opinions - - However, FWIW - I am not "freaking out"  --  this is the first time I have ever had a strong opinion with any rule changes worth speaking up about and I have been trialing in NADAC ONLY since 1998 ... (I should make that a bumper sticker!)

Still love ya and still bleed purple -
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: cindy.lubin1@gmail.com on February 02, 2019, 01:04:02 PM
I respectfully disagree with allowing tugging in the ring whether it be the leash itself or a small toy attached to the leash.  In doing so, it would provide an unfair advantage to those competing teams who find tugging to be a reward (and don't mind their dog tugging on the leash) by allowing them to immediately reward a run while in the ring.  If allowing tugging, then in order to be fair then, competitors should also be able to give their dogs whatever reward they use at the end of a run whether it is treats, a ball, frisbee whatever while in the ring.  If the issue is that some dogs try to grab at their leash when leaving the ring, I think it could be up to the judge's discretion as to how to handle these situations.  I've seen dogs that do attempt to grab at the leash, but handlers who clearly discourage the behavior until out of the ring when they can provide an appropriate reward.  I feel like minimal excited grabbing at the leash when it is discouraged/not reciprocated by the handler to not be something to cause an elimination of the run.   


Why are we against rewarding our dogs?

Is verbal praise not a reward?
Physical petting?

There are different rewards, vocal, physical, toys and treats.

We want to allow as many rewards as possible within reason.

If there was a way to guarantee that treats always hit a dogs mouth and didnít get lost on the ground I would allow treats as well.


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I'd like to clarify, I'm absolutely not against rewarding your dog.  My dogs get lots of verbal praise, treats and toys.   My perspective is if you're going to allow 'object' rewards to be used inside the ring (ie. something in addition to verbal praise and petting), then any 'object' should be allowed to be used within reason.  Some people do not teach or want their dog to tug for variety of reasons and so it could be considered a disadvantage for them to have to wait until rewarding with some type of 'object' outside the ring.   (BTW, I have 'tuggers' and 'no tuggers' if you're wondering). This also has the possibility of slowing down trials if tugging is aggressive, very animated and occurs while competitors exit the ring.  I could foresee the handler following an 'animated tugger' (for lack of a better description) making sure that the previous competitor is WELL clear of the ring before starting even if the previous competitor is leashed and on their way out of the ring.    I just wanted to share a perspective that may not have been considered and thought this forum was the place to do so.  Btw, I am not losing any sleep over this and hope you're not feeling 'beat up', but thought I would share.  Best regards,
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2019, 01:29:25 PM
Thanks for the thoughts everybody!

I think at this point all we can really do is wait and see how it plays out.

Iím not opposed to allowing toys,  so long as they are attached to the leash so they canít be separated.   

I do appreciate all the feedback.   


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: KarissaKS on February 02, 2019, 06:24:13 PM
Just going to share a little bit from the "other side" regarding safety. My young dog has a history of being reactive towards dogs when he is in a state of high arousal -- To date this has only involved barking. I have never allowed it to escalate beyond that. Ren has never been a tugger. He likes his toys and works for toys, but he does not tug at home. Imagine my surprise then, when I entered him in JWW at 15 months and he went after his leash like a maniac at the end of the run. He didn't want his toy or treats outside of the ring, he only wanted to tug on his leash. Shocked me to no end. He comes off the course in an INCREDIBLY high state of arousal (now 18 months). Believe me, I am elated that the only thing he wants to do at the end of the run is tug on his leash. All other dogs disappear for him. Dogs can come up right behind him when he's tugging and he doesn't bat an eye. And when we're done, he's CALMER and we can walk quietly away from the ring with no barking. He doesn't stare rudely at other dogs. He just walks calmly through the crowd (AKC trials around here are very crowded).

I am in no way stating that I consider his behavior at this point in time "perfect," but it is "perfectly acceptable" in the other organizations in which I compete (AKC/USDAA). I honestly wrote off NADAC for Ren because of this behavior and was very excited when Chris posted the video saying tugging would be allowed in June as a test period. With his desire to tug on his leash at the end of the run, I can say with 100% confidence that I have zero concerns about him ever leaving me at the end of the run due to the dog on the start line. When you enter the ring, don't you like to know that the dog running the course is not going to show interest in your dog? Having this type of dog go straight to his leash is far preferable for me.

The thing I wish most is that I could stop yelling at my dog to drop the leash at the end of the run. I'm thankful that NADAC started to not E dogs for picking it up, but I still run towards Jedi at the end of a run saying "Drop it! Drop it!"  As a carry-over he now rarely tries to tug his leash in other organizations (except for USDAA for some reason), but what it results in is him leaving the ring and trying to make a mad dash to his tug toy. Personally, I'd rather have a dog who will tug their leash and be happy with that until we get to the toy (if that's what they prefer).
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Sheila & the Shelties on February 03, 2019, 11:41:22 PM
Just going to share a little bit from the "other side" regarding safety. My young dog has a history of being reactive towards dogs when he is in a state of high arousal -- To date this has only involved barking. I have never allowed it to escalate beyond that. Ren has never been a tugger. He likes his toys and works for toys, but he does not tug at home. Imagine my surprise then, when I entered him in JWW at 15 months and he went after his leash like a maniac at the end of the run. He didn't want his toy or treats outside of the ring, he only wanted to tug on his leash. Shocked me to no end. He comes off the course in an INCREDIBLY high state of arousal (now 18 months). Believe me, I am elated that the only thing he wants to do at the end of the run is tug on his leash. All other dogs disappear for him. Dogs can come up right behind him when he's tugging and he doesn't bat an eye. And when we're done, he's CALMER and we can walk quietly away from the ring with no barking. He doesn't stare rudely at other dogs. He just walks calmly through the crowd (AKC trials around here are very crowded).

I am in no way stating that I consider his behavior at this point in time "perfect," but it is "perfectly acceptable" in the other organizations in which I compete (AKC/USDAA). I honestly wrote off NADAC for Ren because of this behavior and was very excited when Chris posted the video saying tugging would be allowed in June as a test period. With his desire to tug on his leash at the end of the run, I can say with 100% confidence that I have zero concerns about him ever leaving me at the end of the run due to the dog on the start line. When you enter the ring, don't you like to know that the dog running the course is not going to show interest in your dog? Having this type of dog go straight to his leash is far preferable for me.

The thing I wish most is that I could stop yelling at my dog to drop the leash at the end of the run. I'm thankful that NADAC started to not E dogs for picking it up, but I still run towards Jedi at the end of a run saying "Drop it! Drop it!"  As a carry-over he now rarely tries to tug his leash in other organizations (except for USDAA for some reason), but what it results in is him leaving the ring and trying to make a mad dash to his tug toy. Personally, I'd rather have a dog who will tug their leash and be happy with that until we get to the toy (if that's what they prefer).

I'd only like to comment if that tugging behavior calms our dog down that's great.  I think some other people are saying that behavior might affect adversely *their* dog at the start line.  I think Chris has made his decision and let's see how it works out before condemning it.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Edraith on February 04, 2019, 08:07:29 AM
I think to remember too is the start and finish line are like, always opposite sides. So that is at minimum, 50 ft on super narrow courses, more like 70 feet on a lot.

Are people really saying their dog will be reactive to a dog tugging FIFTY FEET away from them?
'Cause right now, 10 ft away is okay - sure it is outside the ring, but this means 10 ft away from you waiting to start, people can tug. 10ft away from your exit, people can tug.  (And that 10ft radius continues with the even-ok-in-ring rule).
...but *five times that distance that currently is allowed that you may deal with*, isn't?

Just...seems like people are over-reactive here, not their dogs. LOL.

Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Jeff Newman on February 04, 2019, 09:58:30 AM
Chris,
I would like to applaud the planned changes you have initiated!
Every venue allows the dog to target the leash at the end of a run.
Allowing tugging with the dog helps with engagement at the end of a run and this will bring several friends back to NADAC!
Happy to hear the Gamblers class making a comeback!
Course design by the judges sounds like we will some new and more challenging courses!
The new judging format sounds great for regular distance challenges!
Overall this news is great!
I look forward to hearing more about the positive changes!!!
Don't let the naysayers change your mind on the leash tugging rule!!!
ALL VENUES ALLOW SOME FORM OF LEASH INTERACTION!!!!
Jeff and the PACK in Phoenix!!!
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Sharon Nelson on February 07, 2019, 10:49:44 AM
In regards to tugging, I do think that we have to look the fact we are talking NADAC!  And NADAC competitors have a history of being polite and friendly and considerate of other competitors.  I think that is why we never see people tugging alongside the ring now tugging and bothering other teams.  They could if they wanted to, but they don't.  They do considerate other teams and how it affects them.

I don't foresee that we will see any teams staying in the ring at the end of the run doing an extended tugging.   What I do see is that it could very well speed up the trial!  If you watch teams running now, there is a huge increase in the number of dogs that either don't finish the last obstacle or they do the last one and then CHARGE back at the handlers, barking, nipping, and even BITING their handlers at the finish.  That used to happen occasionally, but now it happens a lot!  There seems to be a big rise in a lack of a good "finish line drive" and lots and lots of dogs charging back at the handlers.

If these dogs are trained to go to their leash, even if it means picking up the leash and then engaging the handlers in a game of tug, I believe that looks much better than the anger and ugliness of the dogs that charge at their handlers.  If the handlers can't train their dogs not to charge them at the finish, maybe they can train their dogs to have a great finish line drive to a leash!  It is going to make a much prettier picture to watch!  And if they do the courteous thing and get the leash on and have something in the dog's mouth besides a body part, then they will be out of the ring much faster than before! 

Let's get the training headed to a positive end!  The current training doesn't seem to be working to keep dogs from charging at the owners and if the dog is wanting to put something in it's mouth, then much better to be a leash than a body part of the handler!

I do believe that the NADAC people will keep it polite and it will actually speed up trials and make the entries and exits cleaner than they are now!  They can enter, run, and get out "as a team" instead of what we are seeing now that is rather ugly and time consuming. 

I do believe that it will be much more important that a leash runner does not carry the leash to the handler, when they very well might be carrying the dog's toy across the ring.  Whether they put it on the ground, a chair, leash pole or whatever the handler wants, the leash runner can do their job and be right back at the start for the next dog.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 07, 2019, 11:13:18 AM
In regards to tugging, I do think that we have to look the fact we are talking NADAC!  And NADAC competitors have a history of being polite and friendly and considerate of other competitors.  I think that is why we never see people tugging alongside the ring now tugging and bothering other teams.  They could if they wanted to, but they don't.  They do considerate other teams and how it affects them.

I don't foresee that we will see any teams staying in the ring at the end of the run doing an extended tugging.   What I do see is that it could very well speed up the trial!  If you watch teams running now, there is a huge increase in the number of dogs that either don't finish the last obstacle or they do the last one and then CHARGE back at the handlers, barking, nipping, and even BITING their handlers at the finish.  That used to happen occasionally, but now it happens a lot!  There seems to be a big rise in a lack of a good "finish line drive" and lots and lots of dogs charging back at the handlers.

If these dogs are trained to go to their leash, even if it means picking up the leash and then engaging the handlers in a game of tug, I believe that looks much better than the anger and ugliness of the dogs that charge at their handlers.  If the handlers can't train their dogs not to charge them at the finish, maybe they can train their dogs to have a great finish line drive to a leash!  It is going to make a much prettier picture to watch!  And if they do the courteous thing and get the leash on and have something in the dog's mouth besides a body part, then they will be out of the ring much faster than before! 

Let's get the training headed to a positive end!  The current training doesn't seem to be working to keep dogs from charging at the owners and if the dog is wanting to put something in it's mouth, then much better to be a leash than a body part of the handler!

I do believe that the NADAC people will keep it polite and it will actually speed up trials and make the entries and exits cleaner than they are now!  They can enter, run, and get out "as a team" instead of what we are seeing now that is rather ugly and time consuming. 

I do believe that it will be much more important that a leash runner does not carry the leash to the handler, when they very well might be carrying the dog's toy across the ring.  Whether they put it on the ground, a chair, leash pole or whatever the handler wants, the leash runner can do their job and be right back at the start for the next dog.


I agree the leash running criteria will need to be updated a bit in order to prevent any possible issues.

I think what I really want to stress to everyone is that it is a test period from June to December.    And during THAT period is when we are going to be really receptive to any feedback.   Right now any feedback is based off worst case scenarios, and situations we've seen in other venues.   Which doesn't apply well to NADAC as Sharon mentioned, we tend to be pretty respectful of others at trials and that is definitely something we don't want to change.

Once the test period is over, and the votes are tallied in December, that is when we can start to make some adjustments for the issues that occurred.   Whether that be requiring leash poles, leash poles with buckets, leash runners dropping leashes as a new default, or any other adjustment that is needed.

Or it's entirely possible that the majority vote goes in the opposite direction in December and it just isn't allowed.    I personally doubt that will happen, but I have been wrong before.   I would have made big bets on how the January votes were going to end up, and I would have lost a LOT of money!

Title: Re: Questions about changes in 2019-2020
Post by: Lin Battaglia on February 07, 2019, 09:32:40 PM
On different change announcements no one has talked about yet:

1)  In 2020 you are increasing what clubs/businesses will pay to judges per run by 50% and to NADAC per run for recording fees by 50%.  Small businesses and clubs will go out of business. We are struggling. Happy for those that you say have 1000 runs in three days, but my trials are just two days and already donít fill. Runs are cheap $10 per if I have to charge more per run how will that increase my entires ? Another class wonít do it. Why are we paying to record NQs when they are never recorded ? I can understand paying the judge as they scored those runs. NADAC doesnít record NQs.

2). I can not understand why you will be charging judges for courses so they can go out and work for NADAC to make NADAC money.

Respectfully
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 08, 2019, 05:14:39 AM
On different change announcements no one has talked about yet:

1)  In 2020 you are increasing what clubs/businesses will pay to judges per run by 50% and to NADAC per run for recording fees by 50%.  Small businesses and clubs will go out of business. We are struggling. Happy for those that you say have 1000 runs in three days, but my trials are just two days and already donít fill. Runs are cheap $10 per if I have to charge more per run how will that increase my entires ? Another class wonít do it. Why are we paying to record NQs when they are never recorded ? I can understand paying the judge as they scored those runs. NADAC doesnít record NQs.

2). I can not understand why you will be charging judges for courses so they can go out and work for NADAC to make NADAC money.

Respectfully


As I mentioned in the video, there hasnít been a price increase basically since the inception of nadac.   Name a single product in the world that doesnít adjust for inflation?    The cost of everything involved in running nadac has increased,  the number of employees has increased, but weíre still charging the same as in 1993.

Itís just not feasible.

And itís very simple,  you charge $1 more per run and it doesnít cost the club a dime extra.   We never expected clubs to NOT charge more, thatís not feasible.

2). We are only going to be charging a small fee for the judges who wonít design their own courses,  and that fee will go directly to the judge who DID design the set.   

Again, show me any other service where someone gets something entirely for free, and then gets to go out and make money from it,  and the person who put in the work for that product gets nothing?




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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: danforth on February 08, 2019, 06:01:08 AM
Is there any copyright issues involved with courses?  Does the course designer or NADAC own that copyright?  as a librarian, I just that perhaps that issue should be resolved before it becomes an issue.

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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 08, 2019, 06:05:56 AM
Is there any copyright issues involved with courses?  Does the course designer or NADAC own that copyright?  as a librarian, I just that perhaps that issue should be resolved before it becomes an issue.

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No I donít think we need to delve that far into it :)




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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: garypaula on February 08, 2019, 07:58:32 AM
In my opinion, the leash thing is getting blown out of proportion.  I have been doing both AKC and NADAC since I started doing agility about 10 years ago.  AKC has always allowed tugging on the leash while still in the ring at the end of a run.  Believe me, it is no big deal.  Some people do it and some people don't.  I have literally NEVER seen a situation where the incoming team got distracted by the departing team during this process.  And that takes into consideration that the AKC judges tend to be much more lenient about when to let the next team start than NADAC judges.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: JimmyS. on February 08, 2019, 09:02:09 AM
On different change announcements no one has talked about yet:

1)  In 2020 you are increasing what clubs/businesses will pay to judges per run by 50% and to NADAC per run for recording fees by 50%.  Small businesses and clubs will go out of business. We are struggling. Happy for those that you say have 1000 runs in three days, but my trials are just two days and already donít fill. Runs are cheap $10 per if I have to charge more per run how will that increase my entires ? Another class wonít do it. Why are we paying to record NQs when they are never recorded ? I can understand paying the judge as they scored those runs. NADAC doesnít record NQs.

2). I can not understand why you will be charging judges for courses so they can go out and work for NADAC to make NADAC money.

Respectfully
Lin,

Your exhibitors should fully understand a $1 per run price increase. Considering that your club charged $14 a run for less than full entry and $13 a run for full entry during all of 2017, I donít think they are stranger to higher entry fees. Just keep your Sept 2018 price increase and reuse it later this year and I bet exhibitors will understand!




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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Lin Battaglia on February 08, 2019, 10:25:39 AM
You are wrong Jimmy. Our prices in 2017 varied depending on a full entry or not. Some $14, $13, $12 and $10. Some people only do two runs a day. Yes, they paid $14 a run in 2017. So who is supporting the trial the most ? In Nov 2017 we charged flat rate $10 per run. In 2018 everyone paid the same no matter how many dogs or how many runs. I had people with one dog complain that people with more than one dog got a discount and they didnít. But they did for a full entry. In 2018 everyone got the same deal, I increased by one $1 for one trial when I flew a judge in from Canada which was costly. People didnít like that increase and I heard about it. Flights for judges vary $350-$600. People only have so much money to spend on a game we play with our dogs.

I am happy to say I am getting private messages of encouragement for standing up and speaking for those that canít or wonít speak up.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: BeckyAH on February 08, 2019, 10:33:11 AM
I said elsewhere that I understand inflation and that NADAC needs to increase prices.  I stand by that.

I also said, though, and it's important to remember, that most people I know don't have a 'max' number of runs per trial, they have a set amount of money per trial (or month) they can spend.  This is also true.   I won't complain about clubs raising prices, because I understand (as I understand with NADAC), but I also won't be giving them any more money, I'll just being doing a few fewer runs.  What I've got is what I've got and I'm already giving it to them.  So their income - from me, anyway - is mostly static while their costs go up.

Again - I get NADAC has to increase prices, but dismissing this as 'people will pay it' is a bit too simple in this case.  Yes, most of us WILL pay it - but in many cases they'll pay it for fewer runs, which won't help the clubs. 

(I also don't think this is for NADAC to resolve/solve.   Just recognize that it's not a non-issue in all cases.)
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 08, 2019, 10:36:59 AM
I completely understand that dilemma,  and I wouldnít expect anyone to enter more runs than they can afford to.

We will still be the cheapest venue that I know of in regards to recording fees, or at the very least weíll be a tie.   

Itís just one of those issues where in order for things to improve you need the capital to make that happen.   And I just donít see 6 people working for nadac for free,  and I wouldnít ask them to.


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on February 08, 2019, 11:10:38 AM
I said elsewhere that I understand inflation and that NADAC needs to increase prices.  I stand by that.

I also said, though, and it's important to remember, that most people I know don't have a 'max' number of runs per trial, they have a set amount of money per trial (or month) they can spend.  This is also true.   I won't complain about clubs raising prices, because I understand (as I understand with NADAC), but I also won't be giving them any more money, I'll just being doing a few fewer runs.  What I've got is what I've got and I'm already giving it to them.  So their income - from me, anyway - is mostly static while their costs go up.

Again - I get NADAC has to increase prices, but dismissing this as 'people will pay it' is a bit too simple in this case.  Yes, most of umore moneys WILL pay it - but in many cases they'll pay it for fewer runs, which won't help the clubs. 

(I also don't think this is for NADAC to resolve/solve.   Just recognize that it's not a non-issue in all cases.)
Basically, what Becky said.   Our club (me as trial chair) have done everything we could think of to draw in more people and/or increase the number of runs.  We have also cut costs everywhere we can.  But we still see a decrease in profit from one year to the next.  I am competing with 2 AKC trials that make a huge amount of money.  I totally understand the need to increase the fees, everything is going up.  But to just dismiss it as "people will pay" is unrealistic.   If person A has been entering 10 runs at $10 per run for a total of $100 and now will only enter 9 runs if the price per run goes up to $11, that equals $99.  We lose $1 and NADAC and the judge loose as well.  The only way I see this working is if exhibitors also spend more money (which they may or may not have).  Any suggestions to make this work would be greatly appreciated.
Linda
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 08, 2019, 11:12:24 AM
Again I think a lot of assumptions are being made.

Give it a chance.  If it fails you all know weíll adjust. 

If the price does have to decrease then a lot of improvements for nadac will not happen, judges designing their own courses definitely wonít happen for starters


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Amanda Nelson on February 08, 2019, 11:50:31 AM
This is a decision that the NADAC office did not take lightly and we went through LOTS of discussion before deciding upon it.

We definitely are not dismissing it as ďpeople will payĒ, and we do realize how this affects clubs and competitors.

We are trying to keep our prices as manageable as possible while still being able to pay our current staff, and the new staff we will be hiring to streamline NADAC and continue to make it better and better.

We do really appreciate the feedback, and we want it to keep coming! Chris and I take every post, and every email we get into account and it plays a part in all of our decisions.

You all are the best! Thank you!
Amanda


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Liane B on February 08, 2019, 12:22:29 PM
As the owner of a small business (I am a veterinarian and own a small animal practice), I totally get the need for an increase in fees. Would I like to be able to make prices low enough that everyone can afford to look after as many pets as they like, provide all the care and services recommended and not have it hurt their pocketbook? Of course!!! However, I also need to keep the lights on, buy equipment and supplies and pay my very qualified staff a fair wage. This means that for some people decisions have to be made on what they, personally, can afford.  As mentioned, it has been many, many years since NADAC has increased its' fees. I agree this is likely not an issue for NADAC to solve/resolve - it just is what it is. Along the same lines, clubs will likely need to adjust their fees accordingly, and people will play  based on what they can afford. Maybe the conversation needs to shift to other ways clubs can increase revenue, cut costs, increase the total number of participants, etc.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: danforth on February 08, 2019, 02:33:44 PM
living in NH,  the cost per run is not a big factor is.  Cocoa just doesn't want to run many runs per day.  since I am at least 2 hours from either of my nearest NADAC trials, the cost of a motel room has a much larger impact on my trial budget.

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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: BeckyAH on February 08, 2019, 02:51:14 PM
I completely understand that dilemma,  and I wouldnít expect anyone to enter more runs than they can afford to.

We will still be the cheapest venue that I know of in regards to recording fees, or at the very least weíll be a tie.   

Itís just one of those issues where in order for things to improve you need the capital to make that happen.   And I just donít see 6 people working for nadac for free,  and I wouldnít ask them to.


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I wouldn't ask/was not asking NADAC not to increase fees, either.  It's life, the cost of things go up.  It's just what it is.  Some clubs are going to have to hustle, and I'm a little scared for them because I not only love NADAC,  I *really* love my local clubs.

We'll figure it out and it'll work out.   I'm a worrier by nature, but I'm also pretty optimistic.



Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 08, 2019, 03:03:40 PM
I wonder if there would be a way for nadac to help out smaller clubs that are doing an excellent job, to make sure they survive?   

Iím all for ideas in ways that nadac could sponsor clubs in some way


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Amy McGovern on February 08, 2019, 06:25:25 PM
In my opinion, the leash thing is getting blown out of proportion.  I have been doing both AKC and NADAC since I started doing agility about 10 years ago.  AKC has always allowed tugging on the leash while still in the ring at the end of a run.  Believe me, it is no big deal.  Some people do it and some people don't.  I have literally NEVER seen a situation where the incoming team got distracted by the departing team during this process.  And that takes into consideration that the AKC judges tend to be much more lenient about when to let the next team start than NADAC judges.

I'm just curious: where do you trial at AKC?  We show in 3 venues and I've NEVER been to an AKC show where the judges are "lenient" about when to get into the ring.  In fact, I've been literally yelled at by the gate for trying to avoid a potential situation with the dog ahead of me.  Never happens when the same dog and I trial in the other 2 venues.  The other handler and I ran into each other tonight as we were again back to back into the ring (at TDAA this time) and we discussed this post.  Both of us want to know where you have seen this as both of us have experienced NADAC and TDAA being amazingly nice but AKC is terrible with both of our dogs at the gate... So I'm just curious!

p.s. I don't think tugging will be an issue either.  I'm quite excited about it!!
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: bettyj.carter on February 08, 2019, 08:23:14 PM
Amy, in regards to your statement about AKC and the previous statement about AKC judges being lenient, what I have experienced in AKC (and perhaps this what the previous poster meant), many AKC judges release the next dog to run before the previous dog has been leashed. Not lenient in that you can delay your entry or the start of your run to clear the previous dog out.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: SandeeStewie on February 08, 2019, 09:17:17 PM
As I mentioned in the video, there hasnít been a price increase basically since the inception of nadac.   Name a single product in the world that doesnít adjust for inflation?    The cost of everything involved in running nadac has increased,  the number of employees has increased, but weíre still charging the same as in 1993.

I'm fine with the plan for NADAC to increase the fees as published. Supply & demand. Those who don't have unlimited budgets adjust accordingly.
But I wouldn't universally use the argument given... lots of businesses are unable to increase prices. The tech industry has lots of these examples. Prices come down every year, comparatively few companies in that industry can raise their prices.
It's not unusual for revenues/income to fall every year over decades. Different business models, different dynamics & different adjustments... permanent layoffs, offshoring, mergers/acquisitions, bankruptcy etc. Holding still can even be a challenge because competition in some industries gets tougher every year.
 
Again, show me any other service where someone gets something entirely for free, and then gets to go out and make money from it,  and the person who put in the work for that product gets nothing?

Open Source Software is a good example. Products are 100% free. Customer can download for free & use. Some businesses make money selling a service around said products they pick up for free, such as providing support for said software. Lots of people volunteer their work for free & get nothing in return.

That said, from my perspective given some runs in USDAA can be as high as $30 for 25 seconds in the ring (e.g. Steeplechase Tournament), $10, $11 or $12 a run in NADAC is a bargain even if the courses are shorter & simpler.

Everything is supply & demand or provided voluntary. This will pass & people will adjust. I don't think what NADAC is asking is unreasonable.

Matt.
Sandee/Stewie.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Amy McGovern on February 09, 2019, 08:28:20 AM
Amy, in regards to your statement about AKC and the previous statement about AKC judges being lenient, what I have experienced in AKC (and perhaps this what the previous poster meant), many AKC judges release the next dog to run before the previous dog has been leashed. Not lenient in that you can delay your entry or the start of your run to clear the previous dog out.

Ok. That isnít what Iíd call lenient but I see what you mean at least.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Rena Bonem on February 09, 2019, 02:22:40 PM
I really think in looking at the entries for our last trials and looking at my budget for entering trials, that $1 a run will not be the problem.  The biggest problem that I see is the increased cost of lodging.  For two nights, at the last two trials I entered, the cost was $250-$330.  I would have entered another trial, but it was going to be about $500 for 2 nights.  Add that to the new pet fees that LQ is imposing in many of their hotels, I can see why folks are only doing one day or maybe 2 days at our March trial.  In the past, I could get by with $90-150 per weekend for lodging.  I am limiting overnight stays because I also have to pay a pet sitter for my other 2 dogs.
Rena
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on February 11, 2019, 03:36:18 AM
In regarding to judges and course design,  as a club we will pay the judge as usual correct?    The judge will then pay the course designer?
I am doing taxes and thinking about how this will work.   


In regards to the fee increase,  Is there going to be a change in the minimum daily run fee? 
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 11, 2019, 06:05:42 AM
In regarding to judges and course design,  as a club we will pay the judge as usual correct?    The judge will then pay the course designer?
I am doing taxes and thinking about how this will work.   


In regards to the fee increase,  Is there going to be a change in the minimum daily run fee?
Yup you got it.   Nothing will change In how clubs pay judges except for the amount.

The minimums will have to be raised to reflect the increase, but weíre working on a way to mitigate that for the clubs so that they wonít be paying any more than they currently do on the small trials.   Most likely scenario is that the difference in cost between the current and future daily minimum can be taken out of the recording fees to nadac,  that way it isnít costing the club extra to have the smaller trial.


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: KellyDittmar on February 11, 2019, 07:39:05 AM
The minimums will have to be raised to reflect the increase, but weíre working on a way to mitigate that for the clubs so that they wonít be paying any more than they currently do on the small trials.   Most likely scenario is that the difference in cost between the current and future daily minimum can be taken out of the recording fees to nadac,  that way it isnít costing the club extra to have the smaller trial.

Hi Chris -

I want to make sure I'm clear. Let's say we have a day with 150 runs and the min is 200.

In 2019 - I think that we would pay the judge $200 for the minimum, but NADAC still gets paid the $150 based on how many runs we have.

And in 2020 - I assumed the judge would get $300 and & NADAC would get $225? 

Is that correct?

Kelly
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 11, 2019, 08:18:55 AM
We're still working out exactly what we want to do for the smaller trials, so don't quote me on this until it actually goes into the trial secretaries handbook :)

But, what I want to do is have the judge get paid their $300, because they are the ones out there doing the work and small trials are typically harder for the judge then a large one.

Using your example of 150 runs NADAC would normally be getting 225 in run fees in 2020.

But, what we're proposing is to short change NADAC  the difference between the new and old fees to cover the judge.

So instead of sending NADAC 225 for that day, the club would only send 125.    That way the extra $100 to pay the judge doesn't affect the club.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: KellyDittmar on February 11, 2019, 10:52:00 AM
Gotcha - thanks Chris!

Kelly
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Sheila & the Shelties on February 12, 2019, 12:35:25 AM
I really think in looking at the entries for our last trials and looking at my budget for entering trials, that $1 a run will not be the problem.  The biggest problem that I see is the increased cost of lodging.  For two nights, at the last two trials I entered, the cost was $250-$330.  I would have entered another trial, but it was going to be about $500 for 2 nights.  Add that to the new pet fees that LQ is imposing in many of their hotels, I can see why folks are only doing one day or maybe 2 days at our March trial.  In the past, I could get by with $90-150 per weekend for lodging.  I am limiting overnight stays because I also have to pay a pet sitter for my other 2 dogs.
Rena

This has been my problem as well.  I no longer travel to trials as much as I would like to because of the cost of lodging.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on February 13, 2019, 09:42:03 AM
I completely understand that dilemma,  and I wouldnít expect anyone to enter more runs than they can afford to.

We will still be the cheapest venue that I know of in regards to recording fees, or at the very least weíll be a tie.   

Itís just one of those issues where in order for things to improve you need the capital to make that happen.   And I just donít see 6 people working for nadac for free,  and I wouldnít ask them to.


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As many others have said, I have a limited amount of money to put into trials.  I trial 4 dogs, and I allow myself X amount of money per trial.  If I normally spend $360.00 and it is for 36 runs.  I am now only going to enter 32 runs, for a total of $352.00. So the club, the judge and NADAC actually loses $8.00 on me per weekend.  The trials around us are quite small.  So that could really be a factor.  Especially when there are several people who do this.  The club still has to pay for the venue, which I am sure increases, and the judges, so they end up losing a lot more.   I get that NADAC is the cheapest around per run, but we also have the most number of runs per day so it is actually the most expensive to run on a trial basis.     
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Marcy Matties on February 13, 2019, 11:18:25 AM
I completely understand that dilemma,  and I wouldnít expect anyone to enter more runs than they can afford to.

We will still be the cheapest venue that I know of in regards to recording fees, or at the very least weíll be a tie.   

Itís just one of those issues where in order for things to improve you need the capital to make that happen.   And I just donít see 6 people working for nadac for free,  and I wouldnít ask them to.


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As many others have said, I have a limited amount of money to put into trials.  I trial 4 dogs, and I allow myself X amount of money per trial.  If I normally spend $360.00 and it is for 36 runs.  I am now only going to enter 32 runs, for a total of $352.00. So the club, the judge and NADAC actually loses $8.00 on me per weekend.  The trials around us are quite small.  So that could really be a factor.  Especially when there are several people who do this.  The club still has to pay for the venue, which I am sure increases, and the judges, so they end up losing a lot more.   I get that NADAC is the cheapest around per run, but we also have the most number of runs per day so it is actually the most expensive to run on a trial basis. 

Not to argue any of your points about limited funds and NADAC having the most possible runs per day.  But the judge and NADAC will not be losing $8 per day.  Prior to the change, if you did 36 runs, the Judge got $36 and NADAC got $36.  If you do 32 runs under the new pricing schedule, the Judge will get $48 and NADAC will get $48.     Assuming the club raises their price to $11 per run (rather than the $10 you have been paying), it is the club that will collect $8 less.
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Vicki Storrs on February 13, 2019, 02:38:35 PM
I completely understand that dilemma,  and I wouldnít expect anyone to enter more runs than they can afford to.

We will still be the cheapest venue that I know of in regards to recording fees, or at the very least weíll be a tie.   

Itís just one of those issues where in order for things to improve you need the capital to make that happen.   And I just donít see 6 people working for nadac for free,  and I wouldnít ask them to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As many others have said, I have a limited amount of money to put into trials.  I trial 4 dogs, and I allow myself X amount of money per trial.  If I normally spend $360.00 and it is for 36 runs.  I am now only going to enter 32 runs, for a total of $352.00. So the club, the judge and NADAC actually loses $8.00 on me per weekend.  The trials around us are quite small.  So that could really be a factor.  Especially when there are several people who do this.  The club still has to pay for the venue, which I am sure increases, and the judges, so they end up losing a lot more.   I get that NADAC is the cheapest around per run, but we also have the most number of runs per day so it is actually the most expensive to run on a trial basis. 

Not to argue any of your points about limited funds and NADAC having the most possible runs per day.  But the judge and NADAC will not be losing $8 per day.  Prior to the change, if you did 36 runs, the Judge got $36 and NADAC got $36.  If you do 32 runs under the new pricing schedule, the Judge will get $48 and NADAC will get $48.     Assuming the club raises their price to $11 per run (rather than the $10 you have been paying), it is the club that will collect $8 less.

I have been reading this thread, but, truthfully, not paying that much attention to the details. I had the vague thought that, yes, I understand that everyoneís expenses have gone up, I agree that NADAC deserves to have a profit or at least pay for enough employees to do the work involved, the clubs need to At the VERY least break even and should turn some profit for long range equipment expenses, etc, and totally understand that no one that I know has unlimited funds. All valid points.

But just reading Marcieís post, if those numbers are accurate, was an eye opener. So if 36 runs/$10 a run brings in $360 to the club, and they paid $36 to the judge and $36 to NADAC that left them with $288 for the rest of their expenses and, hopefully, some profit. In the new scenario of 32runs/$11 a run, the club takes in $352, pays the judge $48 and NADAC $48 leaving them with $256 or the rest of their expenses...a loss NOT of $8 but of $32. The club is receiving $8 less but itís expenses have gone up $24, for a net loss of $32.

I now realize what a dilemma this poses for clubs!!  I donít know what the easy, or even hard, answer is ...
Vicki
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 13, 2019, 05:04:15 PM
I think it's a little known fact that NADAC does a LOT for clubs that can't make ends meet.

Maybe we should make those facts clearer in the trial secretaries handbook.

But we have consistently waived recording fees for clubs over the past 25+ when they didn't make money on their trial.

There are some strict guidelines,   You can't spend $1500 on a workers raffle and have your trial count as a loss.
But if your expenses are legitimate we waive the recording fees so clubs don't lose money.

I will go ahead and make up a sheet to have in the trial secretaries handbook as an update that lists our criteria, that way it's a little clearer for everyone.

The waiving of the fees really takes the increased fees out of the equation for small trials.    Judges deserve the pay raise, nobody should go 25 years without a raise :)
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Lois Mierau on February 13, 2019, 08:50:49 PM
I have been hosting Nadac trials first as WAGS and now as Sondog Agility for 20 years and have never heard that we we didn't have to pay recording fees if we lose money, which we do fairly consistently because we have very small trials.  Our smallest was 17 dogs. If it is in the  handbook then it is my own fault for not seeing it. Every year we wonder if we should continue to offer trials when my husband's salary subsidizes them  And now we are looking at retiring so really won't be able to afford to lose money. 
Title: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 13, 2019, 08:53:25 PM
Iíve honestly never checked for it as we do it a few times each year for various clubs,  so definitely my bad if itís not listed!  Or It was listed and got removed somewhere along the line.

I also believe we emailed clubs about this last year reminding them,  Iíll have to find the specific email date,  but I pretty vividly remember reminding everyone since we had a club who hadnít known about it at that time.

Weíll get it into the trial secretaries handbook.


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Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Cheryl/Manny on February 24, 2019, 06:58:35 AM
Hi Chris, We have a trial coming up in August and would maybe like to add the Gamblers course to our trial if possible.  When will you be putting it on the Trial Application?  Thanks
Title: Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 24, 2019, 07:30:20 AM
Hi Chris, We have a trial coming up in August and would maybe like to add the Gamblers course to our trial if possible.  When will you be putting it on the Trial Application?  Thanks

Hopefully within the next week.

We need to get the info video made first, that way clubs know what they're offering, then we can get the applications updated.

All of that is slated for this coming week though, so it shouldn't be a long wait