NADAC Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: knittingdog on May 07, 2019, 06:00:01 AM

Title: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: knittingdog on May 07, 2019, 06:00:01 AM

Hi Everyone.

I was talking with someone yesterday and this came up.  I know it has been brought up at least once before.

What if the scoring for Finals at Champs was changed so that the slate was wiped clean?  Your cumulative score would get you into Finals (thus rewarding those who were consistent), but it wouldn't play a part in who won the overall event anymore.  That way anyone who was placed towards the bottom of the 30% going to Finals would still have a chance to win overall. 

It would make things much more interesting!  Right now, if you are placed #6 cumulatively, you really don't have a chance to do anything but move into the #4 or #5 slot unless there is a huge upset at the top.  Other than the honor of getting to run, there is not reason to go all out on the Finals run.  If there is a wide spread, the people at the top just need to carefully run clean to maintain that.

It would also make the Regionals more valuable.  You might win at the Regional and get into Finals that way, but unless you are already in the top cumulatively, there is no chance of placing in the top 3.  If the slate was wiped clean for Finals, it would be much more meaningful.

I think NADAC is the only venue that scores Finals cumulatively.  I know I have a blast watching the Challenger rounds and Finals at AKC because it's anyone's game.

Thoughts?

Robin

Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: KarissaKS on May 07, 2019, 11:09:04 AM
I've always been a proponent of the "slate wiped clean" format for finals. Makes things a lot more exciting at big events in other organizations.

I think cumulative scoring is very anti-climactic. And I say that as having won my division in 2017 -- I went into finals with like a 30+ point lead, so you can bet I was going to run that round as safely and conservatively as I could. Sure the dog in 2nd went balls to the wall to try to make things up, but I wasn't going to risk anything.

That is entirely opposite to my handling style and how I went into Finals and Challengers at AKC Nationals. The crowd really gets into those rounds as well.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Carole & Pat Daggett on May 07, 2019, 02:25:53 PM
In my opinion there is a reason its a 4 day event and not a 1 day test. You need to show consistency over all 4 days and that consistency should be rewarded.

Pat Daggett
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 07, 2019, 02:28:07 PM
This is one of those polarizing conversations.


What is more important, consistency, or that one nice run.

If it were to ever change it would have to be a vote.   Since I’m not gonna touch that decision myself with a ten foot pole :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on May 07, 2019, 03:41:47 PM
This is one of those polarizing conversations.


What is more important, consistency, or that one nice run.

If it were to ever change it would have to be a vote.   Since I’m not gonna touch that decision myself with a ten foot pole :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thank you, Chris, for your reply.  I really appreciate your willingness to take a vote on this issue.  I will keep my opinion to myself and vote if it ever comes to it.
Linda
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: knittingdog on May 07, 2019, 04:00:50 PM

What is more important, consistency, or that one nice run.


I guess my thoughts are that it takes consistency to get to Finals in the first place to be able to do that one nice run.   The first 6 runs are to weed out the best for that one final run. 

There could be two sets of awards - one set for most consistent over the first 6 runs and another for the all out final run.

Just more or less throwing ideas out there for discussion.  I'm sure I'm ruffling feathers, but I hoping for a civil discussion.  I may get shot down and that's fine as long as we maintain civility.

Robin

Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Marcy Matties on May 07, 2019, 05:41:21 PM
So I'll jump in on the side of "I like it the way it is."  I agree with the previous comment in favor of rewarding consistency.  For a great percentage of participants - just MAKING the finals is winning in their book.  And if they are down the line in the 33% they don't go into the final round thinking they're going to place - just ecstatic that they get one more run with their teammate.

To think that a dog who was maybe twenty down the list in total points could then have one great run and win the whole thing just doesn't seem right to me.  And in previous years I would have been very happy to just make the finals - and would not have felt that we should have a chance to win it all with just one run.

I have no data to back it up, but I would think that over the years there HAS been some shuffling around in placements between going into the final round and coming out of the final round.  Maybe not with those dogs further down the line - but between maybe the top 6 or 7.

I think there is plenty of pressure that handlers have to endure over the first rounds just to get into the finals.  I'd hate to see "all the eggs in one basket" if winners are determined by just the last run.   But then I'm not a big Las Vegas visitor either.  Maybe that's what separates those who like it like it is and those who'd like to see it change.  Some people appreciate high stakes gambling and some don't.  Different strokes for different folks.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: KarissaKS on May 07, 2019, 06:07:10 PM
Taking 33% of the class into finals is a LOT of dogs. With the "clean slate" format it should be a little harder to make it into finals in the first place, so you wouldn't have the scenario of a dog with a high number of faults in earlier rounds winning overall. In the case of AKC NAC, due to the pool of dogs competing and the low percentage that make it into the finals, it is very rare for a dog with any faults in the first (3) rounds to make it to finals. That is the part of NAC that rewards consistency and excellence. Then the final round encourages everyone to go all out and have the fastest (hopefully) clean run because there is nothing to lose. They have some divisions (like Preferred and 24C) where dogs might be able to fault in a previous round and still make finals, but for the most part they have to be clean.

A finals round that takes 1/3 of the dogs entered is pretty large. I'm not sure how that number ever came about, especially given the cumulative format that means the dogs in the middle to end of the pack have absolutely no hope of making a placement. And placements aren't even given out for the final round itself.  :/
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 07, 2019, 06:11:56 PM
I would be more inclined to continue the main overall winners format as it is.

But, I would be very happy to have a secondary award, based on the finals run.

This would do a few things I like:

Still reward someone getting into finals, but give them a larger reward.   Someone may be in 8th place overall, but they could pull an awesome run out in the finals and get the {{Insert award name here}}

This would give a LOT more value to the Regionals.   Since winning regionals would get you into finals, and therefore gives you a shot at winning the {{Insert Award Name Here}}

There are some downsides to this, but it could be a decent middle ground.   It would also ensure that everyone who makes it into finals has some motivation to light a fire under their butts and run like it's the last day :)
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on May 07, 2019, 06:20:33 PM
I would be more inclined to continue the main overall winners format as it is.

But, I would be very happy to have a secondary award, based on the finals run.

This would do a few things I like:

Still reward someone getting into finals, but give them a larger reward.   Someone may be in 8th place overall, but they could pull an awesome run out in the finals and get the {{Insert award name here}}

This would give a LOT more value to the Regionals.   Since winning regionals would get you into finals, and therefore gives you a shot at winning the {{Insert Award Name Here}}

There are some downsides to this, but it could be a decent middle ground.   It would also ensure that everyone who makes it into finals has some motivation to light a fire under their butts and run like it's the last day :)
I really like your thinking here.  One "could" conceivably win both.
Linda
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Amy McGovern on May 07, 2019, 07:12:12 PM
Small request:  could we put out placement ribbons for finals?  It's literally the ONLY run at champs without placements.  They can be self serve. But I sure would have loved a placement for that run!
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 07, 2019, 07:21:40 PM
Too much happening right before the awards ceremony to be doing all the things required to have placement ribbons.   There is a lot more to putting out placement ribbons then just setting them out.   And the time after finals is already too short.   No time to add in more work there




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: knittingdog on May 07, 2019, 07:45:13 PM

I would be more inclined to continue the main overall winners format as it is.

But, I would be very happy to have a secondary award, based on the finals run.

This would do a few things I like:

Still reward someone getting into finals, but give them a larger reward.   Someone may be in 8th place overall, but they could pull an awesome run out in the finals and get the {{Insert award name here}}

This would give a LOT more value to the Regionals.   Since winning regionals would get you into finals, and therefore gives you a shot at winning the {{Insert Award Name Here}}

There are some downsides to this, but it could be a decent middle ground.   It would also ensure that everyone who makes it into finals has some motivation to light a fire under their butts and run like it's the last day :)

I LOVE this idea!  Love making the Regionals worth more!

Robin
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: knittingdog on May 08, 2019, 05:16:16 AM

Just a few more thoughts from overnight.

I have seen people get into the Finals and then leave since the big game didn't really matter for them at that point due to the placements.  Getting home sounded better and was more important to them.  Offering the award for the top run in Finals might have kept them there.

It would be interesting to see the actual numbers regarding how often someone in 5th or 6th place makes it into the top 3.   I bet it's relatively rare due to the spreads.  Kinda like when you take enough courses in college, it's very hard to move your GPA upward due to the inertia from what was built before.  Again, an award for the Top Run in Finals gives that person a chance at some kind of glory.

Robin
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: dogrsqr on May 08, 2019, 05:27:31 AM
I agree with Karissa that the percentage of dogs going into the final run would need to be less than it is now. I actually think there are too many dogs in the final run already.  It seems like years ago it was maybe the top 10 or 15 percent.  Either way with less dogs in the finals more people might actually stick around to watch the runs and the awards. 

Gina Pizzo
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Amy McGovern on May 08, 2019, 06:15:57 AM
Too much happening right before the awards ceremony to be doing all the things required to have placement ribbons.   There is a lot more to putting out placement ribbons then just setting them out.   And the time after finals is already too short.   No time to add in more work there
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm sad to hear this.  It is literally the only run all year that can't get a placement ribbon.  And it is the finals run for champs! 
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: KellyDittmar on May 08, 2019, 07:03:08 AM
Small request:  could we put out placement ribbons for finals?  It's literally the ONLY run at champs without placements.  They can be self serve. But I sure would have loved a placement for that run!

You're not alone in this, Amy. It baffles me why ribbons everywhere are self-service based on a printed sheet in a book. I understand the big wall presentation at champs - and that's fun - but I am completely confused as to why you go into the finals round at champs - one of the most stressful & expensive runs many have in their careers - and they knock it out of the park and there's no satin to take home from it. Sure - it doesn't matter at all to some people... but it does matter a lot to others who may not have placed at all before finals. That little something-something to carry home... 

The scores are calculated and posted. No one needs a big presentation or delay. But for those would would value that ribbon - it would sure be nice to have the option to take it home. Or have it sent out with the next awards mailing if it's too much to do DOS.

Kelly
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: dogrsqr on May 08, 2019, 08:55:28 AM
Maybe someone could volunteer to put out the final round placement ribbons?

Gina Pizzo
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 08, 2019, 09:57:22 AM
We haven’t put out placement ribbons for finals for 20+ years.   Why is it now an issue?

In regards to the number of dogs in finals it’s always been the top 33%.

We just have a lot more dogs competing now.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 08, 2019, 10:04:24 AM
Also scores may be calculated for finals but placements are not.

There is also a reason the ribbons aren’t self serve.   No offense to anyone, but in my experience leaving large groups of people to their own devices never works out well.

We don’t order extra ribbons at all, as they are pretty expensive.

So one person taking the wrong ribbon deprives the correct owner of that ribbon.  And I can guarantee that will happen as it already happens even with the ribbon wall and we have to track people down.

Also I’m just not a fan of causing any extra work on a day that we are already stretched thin.   And it would absolutely be extra work.   Seeming how we are the ones who have been doing it we kind of have a better grasp of how it all works behind the scenes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 08, 2019, 10:10:11 AM
I would budge on doing it for this year.

But if it blows up and makes Sunday more stressful then it needs to be for the people running the event,  it’ll be canned for another 20 years :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Foomin Z on May 08, 2019, 12:31:07 PM

Just a few more thoughts from overnight.

I have seen people get into the Finals and then leave since the big game didn't really matter for them at that point due to the placements.  Getting home sounded better and was more important to them.  Offering the award for the top run in Finals might have kept them there.

It would be interesting to see the actual numbers regarding how often someone in 5th or 6th place makes it into the top 3.   I bet it's relatively rare due to the spreads.  Kinda like when you take enough courses in college, it's very hard to move your GPA upward due to the inertia from what was built before.  Again, an award for the Top Run in Finals gives that person a chance at some kind of glory.

Robin
Not NADAC, but I have had a dog win a regional even though all her individual runs were anywhere from 3rd-5th place. The cumulative scoring worked to her favor somehow.

A "best individual finals run, X-height" is an interesting award. It might keep more people from going home early.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Marcy Matties on May 08, 2019, 01:13:23 PM
I agree with Karissa that the percentage of dogs going into the final run would need to be less than it is now. I actually think there are too many dogs in the final run already.  It seems like years ago it was maybe the top 10 or 15 percent.  Either way with less dogs in the finals more people might actually stick around to watch the runs and the awards. 

Gina Pizzo

I think less dogs in the finals would mean LESS people sticking around to watch.  As it is many people who travel long distances take the option to get a jump start on their way home when they or their friends aren't in the finals.  So less dogs in finals would probably mean more handlers and their non-finals friends would start heading home...
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: RobertStewart on May 08, 2019, 02:49:56 PM
I'd vote for keep it the way it is!
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: ricbonner on May 08, 2019, 03:22:59 PM
I'm pretty biased on this, as my current Champs qualifying dog's biggest strength is his reliability and consistency.  But I like it the way it is.  In a head to head single run, my boy Cody normally wont match the speed of a lot of dogs at Champs, especially finalists.  But over 6 or 7 or 8 runs combined, his consistency and reliability comes to bear, and that's how he made the finals.  If finals were run with a clean scoring slate, that would basically negate his best attribute.  I like that NADAC places value in an efficient line and a reliable performance as well as speed.

Fast dogs do well.
Reliable dogs do well.
Fast and Reliable dogs do very well.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: agilityaddict2 on May 08, 2019, 03:34:57 PM
I actually agree that finals should be scored independent of the other rounds. I don't think it negates clean runs and consistency. The reward for that is getting into finals. To me if 15 (or whatever the 33% would be) dogs are in finals and only 3 or 4 have a real shot at winning, it's definitely anticlimatic.
Title: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 08, 2019, 04:40:19 PM
But are we really aiming for entertainment?

Is the goal of championships to be a climatic experience, or is the goal to find the best dog?

If we’re trying to make it a cinematic event there are a lot of things that could be changed that would help that.
But is that really going to be highlighting which dog is the best?

Our criteria is different than most other venues.  We place value on consistency.   Whether that is correct or not is personal opinion, but that is what we value.

I’m split either way.    I want the best dog to win, the best dog who was ‘there’ all week long.   

But I also want to keep it exciting.

So there needs to be a balance


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Marcy Matties on May 08, 2019, 05:37:07 PM
But are we really aiming for entertainment?

Is the goal of championships to be a climatic experience, or is the goal to find the best dog?

If we’re trying to make it a cinematic event there are a lot of things that could be changed that would help that.
But is that really going to be highlighting which dog is the best?

Our criteria is different than most other venues.  We place value on consistency.   Whether that is correct or not is personal opinion, but that is what we value.

I’m split either way.    I want the best dog to win, the best dog who was ‘there’ all week long.   

But I also want to keep it exciting.

So there needs to be a balance


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just my two cents - but I think the Finals IS exciting no matter which dog is running and how high up they are in the points food chain.  How they finish overall is just icing on the cake to be enjoyed at the awards ceremony.  I'm certain I did not sit in the stands and have a clue who was in 1st-5th or any other spot unless maybe it was a teammate and they had kept track.  I just wanted to watch and cheer all of them tackle the finals course.  Consistency is NOT overrated.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Carole & Pat Daggett on May 08, 2019, 05:40:12 PM
Several people have said it takes consistency to get into finals. Not true! Regional winners are in the finals. They could have a bad week and, if all that mattered was the last run they could be the Champion.

Pat Daggett
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Sharon Nelson on May 08, 2019, 06:09:10 PM
Here is my input:

In the past, the rounds were based on other NADAC classes........ a Weavers round with extra weaves, a Jumpers round with no hoops and many directional challenges with jumps, a tunnel heavy round, a Touch N Go round with extra contacts, etc..............

With that format I think it was very important to make the scoring an accumulation of ALL rounds, as you gave the advantage to the NADAC dog that was well versed in all classes.

If the first seven rounds are all more "Regular" based rounds, then I would see the benefit of leaving it like it is or going to clean slate without a strong  lean in either direction.

So if it is put to a vote, I personally would want to know what the "types" of courses will be used in the first seven rounds, as that could have an affect upon a voting decision.

Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Vicki Storrs on May 08, 2019, 07:08:42 PM
One of the difficulties in being a “leader.” There is no way you are going to please everyone. You have a “status quo” that a Few? Some? Many? People would like to see changed. That in and of itself is not reason enough to change. The leader needs to have a vision, be open to hearing people out but willing to make the call. And there will Always be people unhappy with every decision, every change, every Lack of change. So I am hopeful that this is the way NADAC is being lead, bravely and confidently and with vision for what NADAC is or is going to be.

That being said, I, for one, like the way things are.  I like the reward for the consistency and yes, in my limited experience (3 Champs), I have had friends climb AND fall into and out of the three final placements. And not ALL the groups are so huge either in my experience, as someone who runs two very different sized dogs. Plus just in my short time, since 2013, the number of groups have grown, making some actual group sizes shrink. 
My opinion—if a team, in their seven runs, has built up an insurmountable lead, then KUDOS to them and I think they DESERVE to win overall!
And with apologies to anyone offended, because this is NOT directed at any person, it is merely MY gut reaction to comments—IF I wanted to run AKC, CPE, USDAA, etc, that is what I would do. I CHOOSE to run only in NADAC, so an argument that begins “Well in THIS OTHER venue this is how they do it, so why don’t we?” just makes me see red. Give me a Reason for making the change that shows why you think it works better (as most everyone is doing) but leave the comparisons out of it. And those who like the way it is, say why, too. Being different is not synonymous with being bad, or incorrect. Some of us embrace the difference.
With a Big Sigh, because it all makes me so tired...
Vicki Storrs
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Amy McGovern on May 08, 2019, 07:12:00 PM
I would budge on doing it for this year.

But if it blows up and makes Sunday more stressful then it needs to be for the people running the event,  it’ll be canned for another 20 years :)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You rock.  Let the handlers know how we can help!  There were multiple people volunteering to help out.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: knittingdog on May 08, 2019, 07:54:45 PM
I’m split either way.    I want the best dog to win, the best dog who was ‘there’ all week long.   

But I also want to keep it exciting.

So there needs to be a balance


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Seems to me that you could keep it like it is, but add the award for the winning Finals run in each category - as you already suggested - and create that balance!  The same person might win both and kudos to them if they do! 

What I do like is that it makes the Regional more valuable while making it more sporting at the same time.

Robin


Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: KellyDittmar on May 08, 2019, 08:48:19 PM
I agree, Ribbons are expensive. And so is champs.

In terms of "why is it a problem now", I guess you could say the same thing about any idea that comes up that is different from the status quo... For example - Why is it a problem now to have 7 rounds + finals at champs? The story I am telling myself is that you want a shorter day on Sunday. What I wonder is if people (especially those who live closer with jobs to get back to) will leave on Saturday if they don't make finals.  Which would be a bummer... but if they aren't running and have a life putting pressure on them to get back... We all make our own choices. Of course, others are probably thrilled with this change - so it's all just different strokes for different folks! Not right or wrong, just different.

Change happens with growth. Or maybe growth happens with change. Or maybe both. Personally, I think why this (or anything) came up now is someone was brave and had an idea they wanted to share.

Kelly
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 08, 2019, 09:37:06 PM
7 rounds was born out of necessity because we’ve never had 336 dogs before and we never want Sunday to last as long as it did in 2018.

So that one has a pretty easy to find and pin point reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Amy McGovern on May 09, 2019, 06:23:26 AM
I agree, Ribbons are expensive. And so is champs.

Change happens with growth. Or maybe growth happens with change. Or maybe both. Personally, I think why this (or anything) came up now is someone was brave and had an idea they wanted to share.

Kelly

Since I'm the one who asked about the ribbons, I'll say "why now" for myself.  I have only been to champs twice (but we loved it this last round and intend to be back this year!).  The first time I didn't make finals so I didn't *know* that finals runs didn't get placed.  Last year I made finals and made 2nd place in that finals run but I was still 5th overall for exactly the same reasons mentioned in this thread (I had one bad run and was just too many points behind to catch up to the next dog).  But I was so excited to be 2nd in that run and then rather disappointed that there wasn't a ribbon.  I got ribbons in other runs but it was really meaningful to have gotten 2nd in that really hard run!  So that's why I asked!  And others have agreed,  I'm sure for similar reasons.   I'm sorry if it seems "out of the blue" but not everyone goes to champs every year for 20 years.  Just getting to go 2 years in a row is a big deal for us.  It's a lot of time off work, it's a long drive (it's going to be 2 days for us no matter if  it is east or west), and a big expense.  So I'm delighted we can go again!  And while I don't make any assumptions about being in finals (especially since I'm moving to elite from pre-elite), I just want anyone else who experiences what I did to get that ribbon.  Just seems nice for that extra-special run.  Finals really is the most stressful run I've ever done!  I've never had that many people watching me run and wanted so much to be clean (and we were!  We Qd!).
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 09, 2019, 07:23:14 AM
One of the difficulties in being a “leader.” There is no way you are going to please everyone. You have a “status quo” that a Few? Some? Many? People would like to see changed. That in and of itself is not reason enough to change. The leader needs to have a vision, be open to hearing people out but willing to make the call. And there will Always be people unhappy with every decision, every change, every Lack of change. So I am hopeful that this is the way NADAC is being lead, bravely and confidently and with vision for what NADAC is or is going to be.

That being said, I, for one, like the way things are.  I like the reward for the consistency and yes, in my limited experience (3 Champs), I have had friends climb AND fall into and out of the three final placements. And not ALL the groups are so huge either in my experience, as someone who runs two very different sized dogs. Plus just in my short time, since 2013, the number of groups have grown, making some actual group sizes shrink. 
My opinion—if a team, in their seven runs, has built up an insurmountable lead, then KUDOS to them and I think they DESERVE to win overall!
And with apologies to anyone offended, because this is NOT directed at any person, it is merely MY gut reaction to comments—IF I wanted to run AKC, CPE, USDAA, etc, that is what I would do. I CHOOSE to run only in NADAC, so an argument that begins “Well in THIS OTHER venue this is how they do it, so why don’t we?” just makes me see red. Give me a Reason for making the change that shows why you think it works better (as most everyone is doing) but leave the comparisons out of it. And those who like the way it is, say why, too. Being different is not synonymous with being bad, or incorrect. Some of us embrace the difference.
With a Big Sigh, because it all makes me so tired...
Vicki Storrs

I can promise there is no lack of direction happening here.

Part of that direction is listening to the people who compete with us.   
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: agilityaddict2 on May 09, 2019, 08:24:27 AM
I think it is interesting that a lot of people are talking about consistency being the important factor here. I always perceived speed being the important piece of the puzzle when scoring is based on time plus faults. When a super fast dog (and there are tons of them) can have a fault and still be placed higher than the slower no fault dog, isn't that favoring speed over consistency? Should the Champion be a dog that made a mistake but was speedy over the dog that was perfect but a bit slower? I dont even know the answer for sure.
Kudos to Chris and NADAC for even opening this up for discussion. This is one of the things that makes NADAC so different from other venues.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Vicki Storrs on May 09, 2019, 08:56:48 AM
One of the difficulties in being a “leader.” There is no way you are going to please everyone. You have a “status quo” that a Few? Some? Many? People would like to see changed. That in and of itself is not reason enough to change. The leader needs to have a vision, be open to hearing people out but willing to make the call. And there will Always be people unhappy with every decision, every change, every Lack of change. So I am hopeful that this is the way NADAC is being lead, bravely and confidently and with vision for what NADAC is or is going to be.

That being said, I, for one, like the way things are.  I like the reward for the consistency and yes, in my limited experience (3 Champs), I have had friends climb AND fall into and out of the three final placements. And not ALL the groups are so huge either in my experience, as someone who runs two very different sized dogs. Plus just in my short time, since 2013, the number of groups have grown, making some actual group sizes shrink. 
My opinion—if a team, in their seven runs, has built up an insurmountable lead, then KUDOS to them and I think they DESERVE to win overall!
And with apologies to anyone offended, because this is NOT directed at any person, it is merely MY gut reaction to comments—IF I wanted to run AKC, CPE, USDAA, etc, that is what I would do. I CHOOSE to run only in NADAC, so an argument that begins “Well in THIS OTHER venue this is how they do it, so why don’t we?” just makes me see red. Give me a Reason for making the change that shows why you think it works better (as most everyone is doing) but leave the comparisons out of it. And those who like the way it is, say why, too. Being different is not synonymous with being bad, or incorrect. Some of us embrace the difference.
With a Big Sigh, because it all makes me so tired...
Vicki Storrs

I can promise there is no lack of direction happening here.

Part of that direction is listening to the people who compete with us.   


Thanks Chris. The first paragraph was Not intended as criticism but more as my expounding on the difficulty of what you guys are are doing. There are (sometimes/often/usually) reasons for the way things are done but I totally agree that it doesn’t hurt to question Why they are done a certain way. But as we see here So Very Often, multiple opinions on if it should change or how it should change and which can sometimes be quite “forcefully” shared and as equally forcefully disagreed with. And I can only imagine how frustrating, and yes sometimes enlightening (when a totally new thought or idea
is expressed that hasn’t been considered before) it must be to the people who have to make the decision if and how to implement change. I just was trying to show understanding for the challenges you and Amanda face. And that every competitor out here has opinions, there is No Way to make everyone happy. So that can’t be how we expect you guys to make the call, the overall vision has to come from you.
Vicki


[/quote]
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: ricbonner on May 09, 2019, 11:32:19 AM
I think it is interesting that a lot of people are talking about consistency being the important factor here. I always perceived speed being the important piece of the puzzle when scoring is based on time plus faults. When a super fast dog (and there are tons of them) can have a fault and still be placed higher than the slower no fault dog, isn't that favoring speed over consistency? Should the Champion be a dog that made a mistake but was speedy over the dog that was perfect but a bit slower? I dont even know the answer for sure.
Kudos to Chris and NADAC for even opening this up for discussion. This is one of the things that makes NADAC so different from other venues.


" isn't that favoring speed over consistency?"  -- I don't think so.  It comes down to a matter of degree.  How much slower?  How many fault points?

Last year at the Regional event, my boy Cody was competing with a superfast dog.  Cody was clean and solid and reasonably quick.  The other dog was superfast but had trouble with the DW contact and staying on course.  They were in a dead heat after 3 runs.  Sadly, Cody went off course in round 4 and fell behind.  The point is the consistent correct performance had value just like the super speed.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Sharon Nelson on May 09, 2019, 11:40:40 AM
The finals will be great no matter how it is scored!  The best have gotten there through consistency and they will rock it when they run the finals round!  They always do!  It will be great to watch those teams, regardless of scoring!

Kudos to Chris for even considering the option of looking at both scoring possibilities.

Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on May 10, 2019, 11:23:41 AM
Several people have said it takes consistency to get into finals. Not true! Regional winners are in the finals. They could have a bad week and, if all that mattered was the last run they could be the Champion.

Pat Daggett

But you still have to be pretty consistent to win the regional.  It is cumulative over 4 rounds for the weekend and winning regionals isn't all that easy.  Not on the level of Champs, but still not a cake walk in most regionals.  And with only 4 regionals, it is only 4 extra dogs, if a dog that wins regionals doesn't make it into finals anyway.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Carole & Pat Daggett on May 10, 2019, 12:56:03 PM
I've never been to a regional but from what I've heard it's a normal agility weekend. My point is, at Championships all the competitors there run the same courses for the three days. Do all the regionals run the same set of courses? That was my issue with "wiping the slate clean" for finals. It's not a level playing field.

Pat Daggett
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: MoabDiane on May 10, 2019, 06:45:23 PM
First, I greatly appreciate the "discussion" - ability to express opinions and thoughts without repercussions!  Thanks to Chris, Amanda and NADAC for "listening!"

And then....having been to a bunch o' Champs, and having won a few, I rather like the overall awards being cumulative.  One of the things that makes Champs different from other venues is that it does reward consistency - the only other one I've been to is USDAA, where there are quarter finals, semi-finals (which one can enter with a bye, bypassing quarters), and overall, in three different events.  Two of those are definitely a "one run" win.  (Team is a little different, in that several courses are run by all 2 or 3 members of a team.)  While I can see the rationale of not liking that a fast dog with faults can beat a slower dog without faults, it still takes speed AND consistency.  One of the "tests" of Champs is the ability to hang in there over several days. 

That said, I did rather like the "specialty" courses a bit more than the "usual" ones.  I think it evens out the playing field a bit more - the fastest weaving dog may not be the fastest contact dog, etc. etc.  That idea makes the cumulative scoring much more exciting!

I actually hope this doesn't come down to a vote.  While I value the idea that the top dogs (said with affection!) listen to their competitors, I think this is a management decision that should simply take various viewpoints into account, vs. a number of voters.

No matter what, Champs will be exciting and fun!
diane
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: KellyDittmar on May 11, 2019, 12:50:41 PM
But you still have to be pretty consistent to win the regional.

The hard thing for me about this is that in some groups there is only one dog running at the regional event - thereby giving us a default winner. I am not saying that the dog isn't fantastic! I am not saying that they don't  deserve to win. I am only making an observation about the size of some groups.

I believe at champs that you must have X number if dogs in a group or the group gets combined with another group. If regionals is going to continue to be a focus of NADAC, perhaps group combinations should also be considered for regionals?

Kelly
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 11, 2019, 01:15:53 PM
After the first regionals this year we put in a rule that any single dog entries for regionals needed to earn at least 300 points in order to earn the invite.

We’ve done combining of divisions in the past and I don’t want to go back down that road.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: mstomel on May 14, 2019, 01:07:28 PM
I think it is interesting that a lot of people are talking about consistency being the important factor here. I always perceived speed being the important piece of the puzzle when scoring is based on time plus faults. When a super fast dog (and there are tons of them) can have a fault and still be placed higher than the slower no fault dog, isn't that favoring speed over consistency? Should the Champion be a dog that made a mistake but was speedy over the dog that was perfect but a bit slower? I dont even know the answer for sure.
Kudos to Chris and NADAC for even opening this up for discussion. This is one of the things that makes NADAC so different from other venues.


" isn't that favoring speed over consistency?"  -- I don't think so.  It comes down to a matter of degree.  How much slower?  How many fault points?

Last year at the Regional event, my boy Cody was competing with a superfast dog.  Cody was clean and solid and reasonably quick.  The other dog was superfast but had trouble with the DW contact and staying on course.  They were in a dead heat after 3 runs.  Sadly, Cody went off course in round 4 and fell behind.  The point is the consistent correct performance had value just like the super speed.

I don't think there is any way to make it "right". I've seen the very slowest, walking-through-the-weaves slow, dogs win a national event becasue the second place dog knocked a bar. Even though that second place dog was 30+ seconds faster. I personally don't think an agility venue should ever encourage people from taking risks (I'm not talking safety risks of course, just taking a risk and laying that jumps, or encouraging speed, etc). I know some national events don't even have a SCT, not sure if NADAC is that way or not. I guess I would think if you weren't doing time+Faults, the SCT would need to be tightened up quite a bit to prevent those issues. And I say this with a consistent dog who isn't fast. She can make SCT, but she isn't going to beat her strongest competitors even if they knock a bar or take an off-course. I didn't like the feeling of competing against another team, but that is my issue. I would be more inclined to go to champs again if I was in stakes because I don't feel there is direct competition against another team, just me and my dog against that mean ol' course designer. Or... I could just get over my competition anxiety and run my dog, but that seems less likely.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on May 15, 2019, 04:09:56 PM
just my opinion, I agree that I think your cumulative score gets you into Finals, but it's a wiped clean slate for the Finals run.  I also think the number running in Finals needs to be reduced greatly.

My boy Kaiden was perfectly clean in all runs, and quite fast in UT Champs, until round 7 when he had 2 mistakes.  He was 3rd going into that round.  He fell to like 7th after that.  I was devastated as we were never that close to a placement in Finals.  Knowing we were not going to get a placement no matter how well we ran in Finals (I think we ended up 5th or 6th), I put it all on the line to push him as hard as I could since we had nothing to lose.  And, that was fun!!  Personally, I think Finals is much more exciting to have a slate wiped clean.  You are rewarded for consistency to get to Finals, and if you reduce the number in Finals more than it is now, the few dogs running for final placements would be so exciting!  It's kind of like when we have fun "time to beats" on rare occasion at trials, with Tunnelers, etc.  It is much more exciting seeing everyone pushing for everything they have rather than just going out and running.  That's the way it was when "Time to Beat" was first introduced in AKC. Everyone was cheering and screaming. Then, shortly after it became just another class.  I'd like to see it changed, but that's just my feelings.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: arne on May 15, 2019, 08:30:19 PM
I absolutely love the way Champs is currently run with the overall cumulative score determining placements.  For me that is what makes Champs exciting and unpredictable. You can be on top of the world for 5 rounds then suddenly one wrong twitch sends your dog the wrong way and drops you down several placements.  That is what makes it so fun.  That is what adds to the tension before a run.  That is what makes Champs something I look forward to running all year!

If it were a clean slate last run, so much of that excitement would be gone.  If I had a rocket dog all we would have to do is make the top 33%.  We could easily blow a round or two and still win. One bad round is no big deal. No tension. Only the last round would be exciting.  I would be going all the way to Champs for one round.   I currently have a fast consistent dog, but not a rocket dog.   Even the way Champs is set up now with cumulative score deciding placements, we are certainly not going to be anyone's favorite to win.  But with a cumulative score venue, if we have some fantastic runs and things go our way -- hay it could happen.  How fun is that.  If it is a clean slate last round, however, with 10 or so dogs in the finals, it is highly likely that 6 or more dogs will run clean.  At least 2 or 3 of those will be rocket dogs. We would have no chance.  For me, much of the excitement of going to Champs would be gone.

If it were to come to a vote, I absolutely love it like it is currently run!

Arne Lindberg
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: KellyDittmar on May 22, 2019, 09:57:09 AM
Very late thought to this party - I was just thinking about this again yesterday - specifically these things:

* Should finals scoring be cumulative or winner take all?
* Why are there no placements for the finals round?

Would the addition of placements/ribbons for finals help those folks who want to see more of an "equal playing field" in the finals round? In that way - the winner of the round would at least be placing/recognized as opposed to possibly getting no recognition today (in the event that someone outside of the top three cumulative score dogs won the finals round).
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 22, 2019, 10:33:02 AM
We've been discussing this at length, and we're thinking about just opening it up to a vote.

There will be three options.

Option 1:
Finals round gets placement ribbons.    If this happens there would be no big award  given out as a secondary 'clean slate' award for the finals round.   If ribbons are being done.

Option 2: There is a clean slate award for the Finals round.  Big Award for the best dog in that finals round.   No placement ribbons.

Option 3: The number of dogs that go into finals is reduced.   Something along the lines of the top 5 dogs.     All other dogs who didn't make finals get to run in a Challengers type event.   Winner takes all, clean slate.    Big award for the winners, no placement ribbons.   

Thoughts?

And before anyone says it, no we will not be doing more than one of those options together.   That is veering way to close to participation awards for my taste, and I do feel quite strongly about that topic.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on May 22, 2019, 10:38:38 AM
We've been discussing this at length, and we're thinking about just opening it up to a vote.

There will be three options.

Option 1:
Finals round gets placement ribbons.    If this happens there would be no big award  given out as a secondary 'clean slate' award for the finals round.   If ribbons are being done.

Option 2: There is a clean slate award for the Finals round.  Big Award for the best dog in that finals round.   No placement ribbons.

Option 3: The number of dogs that go into finals is reduced.   Something along the lines of the top 5 dogs.     All other dogs who didn't make finals get to run in a Challengers type event.   Winner takes all, clean slate.    Big award for the winners, no placement ribbons.   

Thoughts?

And before anyone says it, no we will not be doing more than one of those options together.   That is veering way to close to participation awards for my taste, and I do feel quite strongly about that topic.
Clarification please-which of these is most like what has been done in the past?  Sorry, but none of them sound like it to me.
Linda
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 22, 2019, 10:42:31 AM
Correct these would all be a change from what's been done in the past.

Currently top 33% of dogs in each division go to finals.
No ribbons are given for placements in the final round, like what happens for the other rounds.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Marcy Matties on May 22, 2019, 10:47:30 AM
We've been discussing this at length, and we're thinking about just opening it up to a vote.

There will be three options.

Option 1:
Finals round gets placement ribbons.    If this happens there would be no big award  given out as a secondary 'clean slate' award for the finals round.   If ribbons are being done.

Option 2: There is a clean slate award for the Finals round.  Big Award for the best dog in that finals round.   No placement ribbons.

Option 3: The number of dogs that go into finals is reduced.   Something along the lines of the top 5 dogs.     All other dogs who didn't make finals get to run in a Challengers type event.   Winner takes all, clean slate.    Big award for the winners, no placement ribbons.   

Thoughts?

And before anyone says it, no we will not be doing more than one of those options together.   That is veering way to close to participation awards for my taste, and I do feel quite strongly about that topic.
Clarification please-which of these is most like what has been done in the past?  Sorry, but none of them sound like it to me.
Linda

Linda:  sounds to me like option 1 & 2 still have the cumulative scoring for overall winners including the finals round run.  They just have additional perks.  Option 1 the additional perk is that the Finals round top 8 get placement ribbons just like they do in the previous rounds.  Option 2 is no placement ribbons, but a big award for the dog that places 1st in that final round - no matter where they finish overall.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 22, 2019, 10:49:26 AM
Personally, I like option 3 the best.

Finals gets fewer dogs running in it, which is good for the running of the event.

The dogs running in Challengers still get a fair shot at winning something prestigious, even if they have completely bombed the whole week.    And everyone in Challengers runs like their whole week depends on it, because it sorta does :)
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Marcy Matties on May 22, 2019, 11:07:59 AM
Personally, I like option 3 the best.

Finals gets fewer dogs running in it, which is good for the running of the event.

The dogs running in Challengers still get a fair shot at winning something prestigious, even if they have completely bombed the whole week.    And everyone in Challengers runs like their whole week depends on it, because it sorta does :)

I'm on the side of like it how it has been.  But change always happens one way or the other.  But two questions/concerns ...

1.  Top 5 dogs make finals ....  Could it be something like top 5 + any dog that is within X # of points of the lead?  Kind of like how they do the cut in golf?  I'm sure lots of times no one outside the top 5 has a shot at moving up 3 slots.  But if the top X # of dogs ARE within a certain point range it seems that they could all be given a shot at winning one of the top 3 places.

2.  If all dogs that don't make finals get to run in the Challengers round then that is in effect a round 7 which would be even longer than the current planned "33% of dogs in finals on Sunday morning".  So the morning would be as long as it's always been when round 7 was on Sunday morning.  Yes, Finals will be much shorter, but is there any concern that the morning round and then awards - with Finals winners, Pre-Elite winners, Challenger winners, World Winners, Team Winners, etc. will go on longer than you'd like?
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: MoabDiane on May 22, 2019, 11:25:37 AM
Marcy has some points there!

I would also like to advocate for a “no change” option, with or without placements for finals.    I’ll go along with whatever, but kinda feel like the squeaky wheels are being heard  over the silent majority.

Diane
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Cathie Cage on May 22, 2019, 11:58:18 AM
I think there should be no changes this year!!! It would not be fair to change what is already listed in the 2019 info sheet for champs at this late date. I think it should be revisited after champs. I think we should see how the change of eliminating a run on Sunday affects what time we get done.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Jeanne Allen on May 22, 2019, 01:39:32 PM
I think there should be a 4th option, don't make any changes and leave it as it has been all of these years.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 22, 2019, 02:23:29 PM
I think there should be no changes this year!!! It would not be fair to change what is already listed in the 2019 info sheet for champs at this late date. I think it should be revisited after champs. I think we should see how the change of eliminating a run on Sunday affects what time we get done.
Oh we wouldn't do anything for this year that changes the schedule.

This would all be for 2020.

The only thing that we can decide for this year is whether the finals round gets ribbons for placements.     Or an award for a clean slate type of deal.

But option 3 isn't anything we could do this year, cause we won't mess with the published schedule.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Cathie Cage on May 22, 2019, 03:46:48 PM
I think there should be no changes this year!!! It would not be fair to change what is already listed in the 2019 info sheet for champs at this late date. I think it should be revisited after champs. I think we should see how the change of eliminating a run on Sunday affects what time we get done.
Oh we wouldn't do anything for this year that changes the schedule.

This would all be for 2020.

The only thing that we can decide for this year is whether the finals round gets ribbons for placements.     Or an award for a clean slate type of deal.

But option 3 isn't anything we could do this year, cause we won't mess with the published schedule.
I think there should be no changes this year!!! It would not be fair to change what is already listed in the 2019 info sheet for champs at this late date. I think it should be revisited after champs. I think we should see how the change of eliminating a run on Sunday affects what time we get done.
Oh we wouldn't do anything for this year that changes the schedule.

This would all be for 2020.

The only thing that we can decide for this year is whether the finals round gets ribbons for placements.     Or an award for a clean slate type of deal.

But option 3 isn't anything we could do this year, cause we won't mess with the published schedule.


Thanks Chris for clarifying! I didn't see anything posted as to when this may occur.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: ljahans on May 22, 2019, 08:00:03 PM
Do I understand correctly that regional winners have won the golden ticket to go into the finals, but arrive with no chance to win or place unless the clean slate option is chosen?


Thanks
LeeAnn
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: knittingdog on May 22, 2019, 08:03:37 PM
Do I understand correctly that regional winners have won the golden ticket to go into the finals, but arrive with no chance to win or place unless the clean slate option is chosen?


Thanks
LeeAnn

AS it stands now, the only way a Regional winner can win the entire event is if they were already at the top anyway since the scoring is cummulative.  They get to run in Finals, but if they are 200 points behind the top dog at the end of the other rounds, then there really isn't a chance they can win.

Robin



Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: knittingdog on May 22, 2019, 08:07:07 PM
Personally, I like option 3 the best.

Finals gets fewer dogs running in it, which is good for the running of the event.

The dogs running in Challengers still get a fair shot at winning something prestigious, even if they have completely bombed the whole week.    And everyone in Challengers runs like their whole week depends on it, because it sorta does :)


I like this option, but I have some questions - who runs in the Challengers round?  Would that be the last round before finals?  Would it be only the top 33%?  Winning the Regional gets you into the Challengers round or Finals?

Robin



Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 22, 2019, 08:15:49 PM
Personally, I like option 3 the best.

Finals gets fewer dogs running in it, which is good for the running of the event.

The dogs running in Challengers still get a fair shot at winning something prestigious, even if they have completely bombed the whole week.    And everyone in Challengers runs like their whole week depends on it, because it sorta does :)


I like this option, but I have some questions - who runs in the Challengers round?  Would that be the last round before finals?  Would it be only the top 33%?  Winning the Regional gets you into the Challengers round or Finals?

Robin
We couldn’t do it this year because we’ve already published that we’re doing 7 rounds.

But, for next year it would be open to anyone who didn’t make finals.   Whatever that number may be.

Option #2 is the best one for making regionals a more prestigious affair.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: ljahans on May 22, 2019, 08:45:12 PM
So option 2 then means a regional winner gets a bye into the challengers run ?


LeeAnn
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 22, 2019, 08:53:49 PM
So option 2 then means a regional winner gets a bye into the challengers run ?


LeeAnn
No.

The challengers is for option #3.

If we went that route the regional winners would still get to run in finals.   If they aren’t within placement levels it won’t really do much besides that run though.

I suppose people could always opt into challengers instead of finals if they wanted, if they knew they weren’t within range of placing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on May 23, 2019, 05:24:56 AM
Is there no option to keep things as they are and just reduce the number of dogs running in the finals?  I'm still confused.
Linda
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: KellyDittmar on May 23, 2019, 06:12:07 AM
One of the things I'd always loved about NADAC & Champs (either from being there or living thru friends) is how inclusive it was. How you could make it to finals and have this shot to be on the center stage for those 45 seconds while some stranger in the stands held their breathe and willed you forward from the edge of their seat and then screamed for you when you finished. Even though you couldn't win. Even though you wouldn't be taking home a big ribbon. It was like qualifying for the Olympics and being to take your mark with Lindsey Vonn. You know you've got no shot to beat her. Her skills and her speed are just better. She trains harder. She takes the risks that you won't. Whatever. It doesn't matter. It's just an honor to have made that final cutoff and be able to take the course with her. I wish everyone in the world could have that experience at least once.

So it's disappointing to me that there's no option to remain the same - but as pointed out already, change is a part of life. And maybe structuring our trials so we have the important regional events like they do at USDAA and the challengers to finals rounds like they do at NAC will encourage people to come play with us. I guess time will tell! :) 

Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Marcy Matties on May 23, 2019, 08:57:07 AM
One of the things I'd always loved about NADAC & Champs (either from being there or living thru friends) is how inclusive it was. How you could make it to finals and have this shot to be on the center stage for those 45 seconds while some stranger in the stands held their breathe and willed you forward from the edge of their seat and then screamed for you when you finished. Even though you couldn't win. Even though you wouldn't be taking home a big ribbon. It was like qualifying for the Olympics and being to take your mark with Lindsey Vonn. You know you've got no shot to beat her. Her skills and her speed are just better. She trains harder. She takes the risks that you won't. Whatever. It doesn't matter. It's just an honor to have made that final cutoff and be able to take the course with her. I wish everyone in the world could have that experience at least once.

So it's disappointing to me that there's no option to remain the same - but as pointed out already, change is a part of life. And maybe structuring our trials so we have the important regional events like they do at USDAA and the challengers to finals rounds like they do at NAC will encourage people to come play with us. I guess time will tell! :)

Completely agree.  Love the Olympics analogy.  I'm pretty sure those track stars or bobsledders from obscure countries don't think "Well, I don't have a shot at winning - so why even go compete?"  Pretty sure they think the experience is worth every ounce of effort and countless hours that they have put in just to get there.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on May 23, 2019, 09:22:18 AM
One of the things I'd always loved about NADAC & Champs (either from being there or living thru friends) is how inclusive it was. How you could make it to finals and have this shot to be on the center stage for those 45 seconds while some stranger in the stands held their breathe and willed you forward from the edge of their seat and then screamed for you when you finished. Even though you couldn't win. Even though you wouldn't be taking home a big ribbon. It was like qualifying for the Olympics and being to take your mark with Lindsey Vonn. You know you've got no shot to beat her. Her skills and her speed are just better. She trains harder. She takes the risks that you won't. Whatever. It doesn't matter. It's just an honor to have made that final cutoff and be able to take the course with her. I wish everyone in the world could have that experience at least once.

So it's disappointing to me that there's no option to remain the same - but as pointed out already, change is a part of life. And maybe structuring our trials so we have the important regional events like they do at USDAA and the challengers to finals rounds like they do at NAC will encourage people to come play with us. I guess time will tell! :)
Love this post!  I still remember the first time one of my dogs and I were called to be in the finals.  It was a very big thrill.  I knew my competition was much stronger than we were, but just being able to run that course with my partner made all the training and expense worth it.

Also, it seems by reading these posts that there are many who would like an option to vote for finals to remain the same.  As it is, those of us who like things the way they are don't seem to be getting a vote.  IMHO
Linda
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on May 23, 2019, 11:35:59 AM
One of the things I'd always loved about NADAC & Champs (either from being there or living thru friends) is how inclusive it was. How you could make it to finals and have this shot to be on the center stage for those 45 seconds while some stranger in the stands held their breathe and willed you forward from the edge of their seat and then screamed for you when you finished. Even though you couldn't win. Even though you wouldn't be taking home a big ribbon. It was like qualifying for the Olympics and being to take your mark with Lindsey Vonn. You know you've got no shot to beat her. Her skills and her speed are just better. She trains harder. She takes the risks that you won't. Whatever. It doesn't matter. It's just an honor to have made that final cutoff and be able to take the course with her. I wish everyone in the world could have that experience at least once.

So it's disappointing to me that there's no option to remain the same - but as pointed out already, change is a part of life. And maybe structuring our trials so we have the important regional events like they do at USDAA and the challengers to finals rounds like they do at NAC will encourage people to come play with us. I guess time will tell! :)

I completely agree with this!  The same people tend to win finals year in and year out.  It is just  how it is.  They have more time to train, better skills, better dogs, whatever.....  I don't begrudge them at all, it is the way it is, but I also think that people underestimate the thrill that us mere mortals have of just making finals.  I was soooo close in 2017 but had an off course in run 7....  I would have been over the moon to have made it and just been out there for the final rounds

I also think that cutting out run 7 would be a big disappointment to those of us who don't make finals.  I know that it would cut the Sunday time down, but I also think that if you cut it out, most people who aren't in finals would cut and run on Saturday after their final run.  Why pay for an extra night in a hotel, extra meals and a long day on Sunday when you have to return to work on Monday, if you can get out on Saturday and sleep in your own bed?   Besides, I pay a lot to be there and cutting a run makes me think about it a bit more.  This year, I am paying $300.00 for each of my dogs for 7 runs.  That is almost $43.00 per run.  You cut a run out, and now it is up to $50.00 per run.....  I know it isn't always about the money, but for those of us who don't make finals, and lets be realistic, that is 75% of the competitors, you are cutting out an extra run in a very special event.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: KellyDittmar on May 23, 2019, 12:20:51 PM
I also think that cutting out run 7 would be a big disappointment to those of us who don't make finals.  I know that it would cut the Sunday time down, but I also think that if you cut it out, most people who aren't in finals would cut and run on Saturday after their final run.  Why pay for an extra night in a hotel, extra meals and a long day on Sunday when you have to return to work on Monday, if you can get out on Saturday and sleep in your own bed?   Besides, I pay a lot to be there and cutting a run makes me think about it a bit more.  This year, I am paying $300.00 for each of my dogs for 7 runs.  That is almost $43.00 per run.  You cut a run out, and now it is up to $50.00 per run.....  I know it isn't always about the money, but for those of us who don't make finals, and lets be realistic, that is 75% of the competitors, you are cutting out an extra run in a very special event.

I think that's already been done... this year your entry fee guarantees you only 6 runs unless you a) win at regionals or b) make finals at the event. I guess on sunday AM they are running a team event before the finals instead of having another round for everyone. (Someone - please correct me if I have understood that wrong, which is of course possible!)

But of course - your hotel will already be paid for for the night, so you probably won't get any savings there... but you could certainly get home to your life earlier... which I expect a lot of people who live close to do - and I'd expect people who are working and live farther to take advantage of the extra travel day over the weekend and cut and run if they don't make it. Maybe they don't leave on saturday night, but I'd expect them to leave on sunday AM instead.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Amy McGovern on May 23, 2019, 01:55:42 PM
Love this post!  I still remember the first time one of my dogs and I were called to be in the finals.  It was a very big thrill.  I knew my competition was much stronger than we were, but just being able to run that course with my partner made all the training and expense worth it.

Also, it seems by reading these posts that there are many who would like an option to vote for finals to remain the same.  As it is, those of us who like things the way they are don't seem to be getting a vote.  IMHO
Linda
[/quote]

One of the options is simply to allow placement ribbons for the finals round.  That is a small change.  It literally is the ONLY run in NADAC that we do all year that you can't get ribbons for.  It also happens to be potentially the hardest and most stressful run all year.  I personally am in favor of this small change.  Just a self-serve placement ribbon... Something for the memories.
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on May 24, 2019, 12:08:20 PM




[/quote]But of course - your hotel will already be paid for for the night, so you probably won't get any savings there... but you could certainly get home to your life earlier... which I expect a lot of people who live close to do - and I'd expect people who are working and live farther to take advantage of the extra travel day over the weekend and cut and run if they don't make it. Maybe they don't leave on saturday night, but I'd expect them to leave on sunday AM instead.
[/quote]

The hotel isn't already paid for.  You can check out on Saturday morning if you know there is no hope of making the finals.  They don't charge you until you check out and if you check out before their required time (usually 6pm to cancel reservations or noon for check out) then you wouldn't be charged for that day.  Or  you don't have to make the reservation for Saturday night at all and then as the week progresses, if you have the chance to make it, you can just extend your stay on Saturday during the day. 

Since it is only 6 runs this year, that is what I will probably do.  I won't spend the money to stay over on Saturday night if I don't get to run on Sunday.  It is a waste of money for me and will get home a day early. 
Title: Re: Scoring Finals at Champs
Post by: arne on June 26, 2019, 03:57:50 PM
As I posted earlier, I absolutely love the cumulative scoring as it is now.  I also agree with the numerous other posts that there should be an "as is" option if there is a vote for 2020.  Also, I understand the logistic issue but I do like the idea of ribbons for the final round if it can be done.

Arne