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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Maureen deHaan on November 20, 2019, 02:27:04 PM

Title: Double run thought?
Post by: Maureen deHaan on November 20, 2019, 02:27:04 PM
Has NADAC ever considered allowing double run events where every course is a reversal (or with a slight tweak) to alleviate the redundancy of repeating the same course every time? Just curious ....I get kind bored with double runs ....

Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Jeff Lyons on November 20, 2019, 02:42:02 PM
The problem would be the additional walk-throughs for each level, which saves a ton of time in the double-run format.
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: BeckyAH on November 20, 2019, 03:39:29 PM
The problem would be the additional walk-throughs for each level, which saves a ton of time in the double-run format.

Yeah, but you still save time on the rebuild, so as a time saving measure without going to full double run.

I like the benefits of double runs for clubs.

But MAN with 3 dogs,  running the same course 6 times gets OLD.
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Marcy Matties on November 20, 2019, 05:26:42 PM
The other issue is that some courses do not lend themselves to be run the reverse direction.   Some might be just fine that way - but others could stink big time.  An angle that's good in one direction is not always good in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Maureen deHaan on November 21, 2019, 02:24:13 AM
What's the big deal about extra walk throughs? Our trials are so small that we all get done by 4pm in standard format with extra builds and walk throughs. I don't understand why everyone wants to rush to be done - in the old days trials wouldn't end till 8pm sometimes and that was with 4 events a day. 

regarding - angles - yes I understand that - that is why I said tweaking - courses can be tweaked very quickly and many courses lend themselves to a nice reversal - and if judges are designing their own courses why can't they design something that can be reversed ?

I personally am very bored running the same course 4x (2dogs)
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Sara Langston on November 21, 2019, 06:15:58 AM
I personally love the double run format!!!!  If my dog and I have trouble in a place I didn't see during the walk through, we can give that special attention on the second run.  I, too, run two dogs (4 runs of same course) sometimes in the same class level.  Our trials are small as well and, sometimes, there is only one dog in a class with my two.  Sometimes, my Rat Terrier is the only one in his jump height so I am running him back to back.   Yes, it is hard on me as an old person, however, it is never boring.  It always feels so good to come back on the second run and nail something that we messed up on the first run.  Long live the Double Run Format!!!!!!

Sara   
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Amy McGovern on November 21, 2019, 06:51:52 AM
What's the big deal about extra walk throughs? Our trials are so small that we all get done by 4pm in standard format with extra builds and walk throughs. I don't understand why everyone wants to rush to be done - in the old days trials wouldn't end till 8pm sometimes and that was with 4 events a day. 

Not all trials are as small as yours!  Many are full or close to full and adding the extra walk-throughs makes it go from a decent length day to 12-14 hours in the barns.  That isn't fun for anyone...

Given the new format, you can choose to have your shows not be double run and keep yourself happy that way.  And other clubs can choose double run or mixed and everyone is happy.  I like the idea.  Double run is very popular in the midwest and I personally love the format.  And yes, I run multiple dogs.  Each dog is different so I am definitely not bored running it repeatedly!
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: dogrsqr on November 21, 2019, 07:31:02 AM
I agree.  We love Double Run format in the  midwest.  It has really changed my mindset to try handling in new ways. I do appreciate that trials don't run until 8:00.  We have to travel if we want to trial on a regular basis and heading out on a 5 hour drive at even 5:00 or 6:00 is not very fun.

The standard format option is available and if trials are small the extra course builds shouldn't cause a problem.

I'm not a course designer but just watching jumpers be built I would think it would be tough to design jumpers to be run in reverse.

Gina Pizzo
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: mephalon on November 21, 2019, 09:28:43 AM
"The standard format option is available and if trials are small the extra course builds shouldn't cause a problem."

True but only being able to offer 7 classes could cause a problem in the bottom line....
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Ed and Dino on November 21, 2019, 10:12:51 AM
"The standard format option is available and if trials are small the extra course builds shouldn't cause a problem."

True but only being able to offer 7 classes could cause a problem in the bottom line....

I'm not sure that would be true, I sign up for the number of classes I want to do. If you are doing Standard format with 7 runs and I'm only doing 6 classes, I didn't change your bottom line at that trial.

Double run of 8 and I'm doing 6 is the same amount of money from me.

I'd like to know how many people really sign up for every class at every trial, I doubt universally everyone signs up for every class, that adds up to a lot of moola for all those attending. I choose what I want to do and Pay.
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Maureen deHaan on November 21, 2019, 02:10:44 PM
"The standard format option is available and if trials are small the extra course builds shouldn't cause a problem."

True but only being able to offer 7 classes could cause a problem in the bottom line....

I'm not sure that would be true, I sign up for the number of classes I want to do. If you are doing Standard format with 7 runs and I'm only doing 6 classes, I didn't change your bottom line at that trial.

Double run of 8 and I'm doing 6 is the same amount of money from me.

I'd like to know how many people really sign up for every class at every trial, I doubt universally everyone signs up for every class, that adds up to a lot of moola for all those attending. I choose what I want to do and Pay.

Couple of things -

1)Yes the difference between 7 & 8 runs does change the bottom line - it did for me in October - I offered 8 runs saturday and 7 on sunday and as you know (bc you were there)  my trial was in the red - had I offered the 8th class on sunday I would have covered my costs. I would not have profited too much but I would have covered my costs - as it was I had to pay my trial insurance (which is quite expensive) out of my own pocket and all the hospitality - work raffle, nq raffle and worker snacks (outside of what was donated) - I have no money right now to buy ribbons for 2020 bc my last trial lost $$ - I will have to buy them myself.  The 8th run would have eased that burden to my personal account.

2) when its NOT double run - I generally enter every event for both of my dogs - if it IS double run I do not always enter every run for both dogs. I don't make the choices based on money - I make those choices based on what is best for my dogs at the time.
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: BeckyAH on November 21, 2019, 02:38:11 PM
"The standard format option is available and if trials are small the extra course builds shouldn't cause a problem."

True but only being able to offer 7 classes could cause a problem in the bottom line....

I'm not sure that would be true, I sign up for the number of classes I want to do. If you are doing Standard format with 7 runs and I'm only doing 6 classes, I didn't change your bottom line at that trial.

Double run of 8 and I'm doing 6 is the same amount of money from me.

I'd like to know how many people really sign up for every class at every trial, I doubt universally everyone signs up for every class, that adds up to a lot of moola for all those attending. I choose what I want to do and Pay.

I do sign up for the runs I want to do.

But with 3 dogs, I very often do not feel like doing the same touch and go course 6 times.   So 1 or more of my dogs doesn't run it, or I just do one round.    I also find if I want to run my vet dog in both elite jumpers  runs in a beta trial, I'm going to NOT enter her in something else (probably regular), because that's a big ask of her  energy, speed, and impact wise on a single day, back to back so I have to cut some things.  1 round + other stuff, with most being non jumping or shorter courses  is also fine.

Then there's what happens if classes I need at a given time have both runs on Saturday - I enter Saturday and skip Sunday (or whatever).

It isn't just about how much money I'm willing/able to spend.

And I think most people make similar decisions.

(I'm not weighing in on anything beyond that -  Bottom lines do change based on  format, because money isn't the only consideration/limit)
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Ed and Dino on November 21, 2019, 04:33:23 PM
"The standard format option is available and if trials are small the extra course builds shouldn't cause a problem."

True but only being able to offer 7 classes could cause a problem in the bottom line....

I'm not sure that would be true, I sign up for the number of classes I want to do. If you are doing Standard format with 7 runs and I'm only doing 6 classes, I didn't change your bottom line at that trial.

Double run of 8 and I'm doing 6 is the same amount of money from me.

I'd like to know how many people really sign up for every class at every trial, I doubt universally everyone signs up for every class, that adds up to a lot of moola for all those attending. I choose what I want to do and Pay.

Couple of things -

1)Yes the difference between 7 & 8 runs does change the bottom line - it did for me in October - I offered 8 runs saturday and 7 on sunday and as you know (bc you were there)  my trial was in the red - had I offered the 8th class on sunday I would have covered my costs. I would not have profited too much but I would have covered my costs - as it was I had to pay my trial insurance (which is quite expensive) out of my own pocket and all the hospitality - work raffle, nq raffle and worker snacks (outside of what was donated) - I have no money right now to buy ribbons for 2020 bc my last trial lost $$ - I will have to buy them myself.  The 8th run would have eased that burden to my personal account.

2) when its NOT double run - I generally enter every event for both of my dogs - if it IS double run I do not always enter every run for both dogs. I don't make the choices based on money - I make those choices based on what is best for my dogs at the time.

I had only signed up for 6 runs on Sunday at your trial, so once again I would not have helped your profitability since I was only doing 6 runs. Belle also was only doing 6 classes on Sunday.

For me (one intro dog) I am not signing up for every run at an 8 run standard or mixed format trial at this point in Tres' development.

I feel bad you lost money, I love your site and your trial but I think this means you need to raise your entry fees, you can't be losing money.

I realize there is money curve but if you don't go profitable then you stop running your trials.
If you raise entry fees and lose too many entrants then I guess you stop running trials.

If you raise entry fees and go profitable - Great!
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: mephalon on November 22, 2019, 06:14:18 AM
I do sign up for the runs I want to do.

But with 3 dogs, I very often do not feel like doing the same touch and go course 6 times.   So 1 or more of my dogs doesn't run it, or I just do one round.    I also find if I want to run my vet dog in both elite jumpers  runs in a beta trial, I'm going to NOT enter her in something else (probably regular), because that's a big ask of her  energy, speed, and impact wise on a single day, back to back so I have to cut some things.  1 round + other stuff, with most being non jumping or shorter courses  is also fine.

Then there's what happens if classes I need at a given time have both runs on Saturday - I enter Saturday and skip Sunday (or whatever).

It isn't just about how much money I'm willing/able to spend.

And I think most people make similar decisions.

(I'm not weighing in on anything beyond that -  Bottom lines do change based on  format, because money isn't the only consideration/limit)
[/quote]

Completely agree with this-  I am fortunate that my bottom line is not an absolute- it depends on class order,  format and classes.   I rarely enter the last class of the day (even if I am camping at the trial site)- if it is double run technically I am not entering the last TWO classes of the day which equals less $$$ to the trial host.   
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: RobertStewart on November 22, 2019, 07:18:53 AM
What's the big deal about extra walk throughs? Our trials are so small that we all get done by 4pm in standard format with extra builds and walk throughs. I don't understand why everyone wants to rush to be done - in the old days trials wouldn't end till 8pm sometimes and that was with 4 events a day. 

regarding - angles - yes I understand that - that is why I said tweaking - courses can be tweaked very quickly and many courses lend themselves to a nice reversal - and if judges are designing their own courses why can't they design something that can be reversed ?

I personally am very bored running the same course 4x (2dogs)

The big deal is the extra time a getting people to work. I run 3 dogs on the same course, and often a 4th never gets boring because i am staying in the moment with the dog, and each dogs handles differently.

Try running them differently each time, add more distance, run silently there lots of ways to keep the mind active and engaged.

I am NEVER bored with agility (okay maybe here and there - but it's rare)


Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on November 22, 2019, 09:00:21 AM
I have a set amount of money that I spend at a trial so 7 or 8 runs wouldn't matter to me at all.  This weekend I am running 4 dogs in both TNG and tunnelers.   I guess because all of my dogs run differently, it doesn't get boring because I have to figure a way to run all 4 of them.  What IS tough is ONE walk through for all 4 dogs because I DO have to figure out what I am doing with each of them in the limited amount of time.  And then switching my mindset between dogs and remembering which dog I am running.... 
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Anne Etherton on November 22, 2019, 11:08:34 AM
I really appreciate double run format in chances.  I can figure out how to make it work the second time frequently.  I run two dogs who are in different levels and are just different.  I can't remember being bored ever.

Anne
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Amy McGovern on November 22, 2019, 11:48:32 AM
The big deal is the extra time a getting people to work. I run 3 dogs on the same course, and often a 4th never gets boring because i am staying in the moment with the dog, and each dogs handles differently.

Try running them differently each time, add more distance, run silently there lots of ways to keep the mind active and engaged.

I am NEVER bored with agility (okay maybe here and there - but it's rare)

Agreed!  I used to run 3, currently have 1-2 (depending on if my son is at the show too) and they are all different.  I don't get bored!  In fact, I find myself more annoyed at myself sometimes for running the course with dog 1 the way that I need to run it for dog 2 (they are very different!).  So I work to challenge myself for both of them!  And now with a puppy coming, we get challenges in a whole new way again!
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: BeckyAH on November 22, 2019, 01:18:01 PM
I have a set amount of money that I spend at a trial so 7 or 8 runs wouldn't matter to me at all.  This weekend I am running 4 dogs in both TNG and tunnelers.   I guess because all of my dogs run differently, it doesn't get boring because I have to figure a way to run all 4 of them.  What IS tough is ONE walk through for all 4 dogs because I DO have to figure out what I am doing with each of them in the limited amount of time.  And then switching my mindset between dogs and remembering which dog I am running....

Time is also a big, big, factor in why I don't like running all 3 dogs in one double format class - at least anywhere there aren't separate walk through.

Part of it is having time to come up with appropriate strategy, but some of it's also just plain' fair to do the dog' issues.  I tried all 3 of mine in T'n'G.   EVEN WITH them in different height classes,  and levels, being that it was a small trial and there was a single walk through, so they got pulled,  had time to pee (barely) and then hit the course.

Some dogs do fine with that.

Mine need a little more to figure out where they are, what we're doing and to connect with me.

That one isn't a double run format issue though, except in as much as this entire too hurried process would then be repeated.

Which would jack them up higher.

Not an issue later in the day, but first one? Yeahno. Not for me and mine.

Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: BeckyAH on November 22, 2019, 01:21:31 PM
But also my fun factor/value matters, and there really is a limit to how many times I can see that same course and care to run it. And it's fewer than 6.   Bored probably isn't the right word, but even with variation in dogs it just becomes 'done'. Either I'm getting it, and cool, don't need to repeatedly do it - or I'm not and I REALLY need to train it, rather than stress my dogs out more.

I *don't* dislike double runs, and use them quite a bit (especially in chances) and support my clubs doing what works for them.

But I'm likely to spend less/run less on a double run trial than not, because of how I select my entries.
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on November 25, 2019, 08:59:45 AM
I have a set amount of money that I spend at a trial so 7 or 8 runs wouldn't matter to me at all.  This weekend I am running 4 dogs in both TNG and tunnelers.   I guess because all of my dogs run differently, it doesn't get boring because I have to figure a way to run all 4 of them.  What IS tough is ONE walk through for all 4 dogs because I DO have to figure out what I am doing with each of them in the limited amount of time.  And then switching my mindset between dogs and remembering which dog I am running....

Time is also a big, big, factor in why I don't like running all 3 dogs in one double format class - at least anywhere there aren't separate walk through.

Part of it is having time to come up with appropriate strategy, but some of it's also just plain' fair to do the dog' issues.  I tried all 3 of mine in T'n'G.   EVEN WITH them in different height classes,  and levels, being that it was a small trial and there was a single walk through, so they got pulled,  had time to pee (barely) and then hit the course.

Some dogs do fine with that.

Mine need a little more to figure out where they are, what we're doing and to connect with me.

That one isn't a double run format issue though, except in as much as this entire too hurried process would then be repeated.

Which would jack them up higher.

Not an issue later in the day, but first one? Yeahno. Not for me and mine.

I totally get that.  This weekend, I ended up running 2 dogs in the elite level first.  There was enough time between them so that was fine and the one that needs the most time to warmup was one of those.  Then I ran one in the open level because she is able to go a bit more back to back without the rest.  The final dog, I ran in the novice level where there were a few more dogs to be able to give him a breather.  They just had to wait to score the elite until I was done.  I also had someone holding the first 2 dogs so I could switch them out, then she also went and grabbed the next dog that I needed.  That was EXTREMELY helpful!   In other shows, where they don't separate the levels, we just make sure everyone gets enough time.  People understand when you run multiple dogs that you need a bit of times to get the dogs ready. 
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on November 27, 2019, 04:54:56 PM
Yes, I love double run format, and I think most of us do here in the central plains.  I never hear people complain about them and I do think it helps the day go by faster, especially when we only have a one ring trial. As was mentioned, each dog we run has different strengths or challenges, so I am not bored running 2 dogs 4x on the same course.  And, as someone mentioned, change it up, do something different, do more distance work, etc. to provide yourself new fun/challenges.
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Amy McGovern on November 27, 2019, 05:31:50 PM
I think those on the coasts may not understand the driving time that those of us in the midwest have to do at a show.  That definitely positively affects my view of double runs!  The fact that the day is several hours shorter is HUGE.  It lets me enter all of the runs instead of only some.  And still get home such that I can work the next day.  My typical drive to a show is 5 hours so ending at 2 or 3pm instead of 5 or 6 pm is a BIG difference.  Someone earlier in the thread asked why that matters.  Because we don't all live 1 hour from a show!  The midwest is very different than the east (where I trial sometimes in the summer when visiting my relatives, so many shows all within an hour!).

-Amy
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on November 28, 2019, 01:08:50 AM
I agree with Amy. I drive as far as 9 hours one way to 2 locations up to about 5 to 6 times a year. My normal drives are 3-9 hours away. It does matter what time we finish on Sundays for drives home. And for a majority of us, we do have long drives out here. My trial last weekend was 3 hours away, but a bunch of my KC friends cane and their drives were 6 hours.
Title: Re: Double run thought?
Post by: Maureen deHaan on November 28, 2019, 05:28:26 AM
First off - It was just a question - I was in no way suggesting that ALL TRIALS had to be this way - I just wanted to know if it had ever been considered  AS AN OPTION for those of us who host trials - need to offer 8 runs a day to make ends meet and dislike double run but need to offer it (which is probably just me - but I would like the option)

Secondly - I may live "on a coast" (Not really sure what that means btw bc I live in upstate NY which is not a coast - I live in the mountains) - but I DRIVE between 3 and 7 hours  regularly to trial - I live in NY but I travel to Maryland  easily 1x a month if not 2x to trial all year long.

(For me to get to Maryland it takes between 5 - 7 hours depending on traffic and which site I'm going to - and if I have my RV it can be longer)- I also trial in VT regularly & RI (3+ hours each)State College, Pa (5 hrs) Buffalo NY (6 hours - in the same state!) and NJ (2 hours) and local NY shows (1.5 hours) and I host trials that are 45 minutes from my house

In the winter there are no trials in NY, NJ, or VT - maybe 1 or 2 in RI  - So if I want to trial and run on dirt, which is my preference over turf, I have to go to Maryland - (6 hours average) I understand getting home late - bc I get home late from the Maryland trials  and I get up for work monday morning just like everyone else.

So please don't assume we in the east have only an hour to drive - many of us drive as far as you folks in the midwest -