Author Topic: Are NADAC course times too fast?  (Read 3978 times)

acenagility

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Are NADAC course times too fast?
« on: November 04, 2014, 12:34:41 PM »
I have been doing NADAC for about three years now and have never had a problem making time.  Currently I run a high drive boxer and an Australian Shepherd.  In the last NADAC trial, they both had beautiful, clean, fast jumpers rounds.  I came out thinking I had a new Elite title with the Aussie and a new Open title with the boxer.  When I went to check the books, their times were just too slow.  This has never happened before.  They sometimes come in almost 10 seconds under time!  I talked to many others who have fast dogs, i.e. Catahoula, who never have a problem with time and they didn't Q either with a perfect, fast round.  I understand that NADAC times are faster than most other trials but dogs who are going 4.1-4.6 YPS are not cutting it?  This is really disheartening as I love NADAC but if my dogs just aren't fast enough then we will need to look for trials elsewhere.  Has anybody else had this problem?  Are border collies they only dogs that will be competing in NADAC and have any chance at a championship?!  Please give me your insight!  There were a lot of very frustrated dog owners at this trial that were surprised that their dog didn't make time when they usually do.

Thank you!

Melanie Harris
Satine, Morgie, and Quigley

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2014, 02:44:12 PM »
I have been doing NADAC for about three years now and have never had a problem making time.  Currently I run a high drive boxer and an Australian Shepherd.  In the last NADAC trial, they both had beautiful, clean, fast jumpers rounds.  I came out thinking I had a new Elite title with the Aussie and a new Open title with the boxer.  When I went to check the books, their times were just too slow.  This has never happened before.  They sometimes come in almost 10 seconds under time!  I talked to many others who have fast dogs, i.e. Catahoula, who never have a problem with time and they didn't Q either with a perfect, fast round.  I understand that NADAC times are faster than most other trials but dogs who are going 4.1-4.6 YPS are not cutting it?  This is really disheartening as I love NADAC but if my dogs just aren't fast enough then we will need to look for trials elsewhere.  Has anybody else had this problem?  Are border collies they only dogs that will be competing in NADAC and have any chance at a championship?!  Please give me your insight!  There were a lot of very frustrated dog owners at this trial that were surprised that their dog didn't make time when they usually do.

Thank you!

Melanie Harris
Satine, Morgie, and Quigley

I love the beginning of your post.  Full of good information and data to check on.  I am saddened that it had to go to such a negative tone.

NADAC times have not changed in ten years.  And that change was to increase the amount of time given.   Open jumpers large dogs Proficient require 4.25 yps to Q.  Large dogs Skilled require the Proficient time plus 10%.  If your dog ran at 4.1, then they did not make time.  If they ran at 4.6 then they easily made time.  That is a very big difference in running times!

Nothing has changed.  If your dogs used to be 10 seconds under time and now they don't make time, it is the dogs that have changed, not the standard course times.

One can always politely ask to have times verified.   There is a slight possibility that a judge could tell them the yardage is 143 yards and the trial secretary types in 134, therefore tightening the times.

Being courteous gets a person a long ways.  Condemning the organization for maintaining the same standards that they have had since 1993 doesn't get one as far. 

Speed and efficiency are two skills that can be taught and are a very important part of the testing of an agility dog.  Just following the numbers and staying on course is only a part of the test.  NADAC does test the efficiency of the team and the handlers ability to teach forward impulsion and motivation skills to the dog.  Yes, there are other organizations that do not put any value on forward impulsion and efficiency skills to make standard course times.  NADAC does and that is a difference between organizations.  If a dog does not have enough forward impulsion to maintain a pace to meet standard course times, then it can become an issue in NADAC.

Also, there are just as many slow border collies by percentage as there are any other breed.  Speed certainly has nothing to do with being a border collie.  With a fast dog there are a lot of other training that must take place in order to qualify.  A person with a fast dog must teach very accurate directional skills to keep those fast dogs on course and not displace bars.  In the same way that a person with a slow dog must teach motivational skills and work on forward impulsion techniques.  Just because a dog stays on course does not mean that they have met the standard of qualifying for the run.

Sharon
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Jeff Lyons

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2014, 03:05:36 PM »
If dogs who run clean and normally make time by 10 seconds or more are not making time, the yardage may not have been entered correctly.  That is something that is much more easily addressed at the trial when reviewing the posted scores, but that is a possibility.     

Jeff L.

acenagility

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2014, 03:26:15 PM »
Thank you for the responses. Maybe the yardage was off. I didn't mean for the post to turn negative. It was just surprising and frustrating to be too slow all of a sudden when it hasn't been an issue before and this was the case for many people at that trial. I will keep an eye on that from now on. I love NADAC and will always support it.

Melanie

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2014, 03:42:37 PM »
Thank you for the responses. Maybe the yardage was off. I didn't mean for the post to turn negative. It was just surprising and frustrating to be too slow all of a sudden when it hasn't been an issue before and this was the case for many people at that trial. I will keep an eye on that from now on. I love NADAC and will always support it.

Melanie

We are here to help in any way.

If you submit the host club, date and course in question, I can check out the results and see if there was an error in the numbers submitted in the trial results.

Sharon
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kbriefel

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2014, 07:45:28 PM »
I run a Goldendoodle who is definitely not a driven dog and we've earned NATCH6 and Elite All Around.  I view the course times as part of the challenge, not as a reason to seek another venue.  It sucks to be .001 over but frankly being a hair under may will have meant we pushed enough to have really earned a Q.  If we never made time it might be different but if you like the courses and the people at your trials, embrace the challenge.

Ken Briefel and Maya

Lindsey Cooper

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2014, 07:48:34 PM »
I'm guessing Melanie is referencing our Mountain Dog Sports Trial Oct 23-25th. I didn't hear anyone comment on it at the trial and I don't think Tracindid either.

The results catalog as posted at the trial can be found here: http://mountaindogsports.com/october/2014results.pdf

You can see the dog's YPS in there.

Lindsey

TheQuestKnight

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2014, 06:54:15 AM »
Hi Melanie!

Nyah, times haven't changed for years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Folks at the confuser, may...............from time-to-time, input the wrong yardage..............................this I know well......................my wife is dyslexic and transpositions around our home are common.............................especially when it comes to balancing the checkbook!!!!! <LOL>

On the other paw, I've had some runs with my kids over the years that "felt to me" to be REALLY FAST and REALLY EFFICIENT...............................and yet we were still over time...........................little..................even miniscule......................bobbles add up seconds REALLY FAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've also partnered with our late BC, Gael........................on occasion...........................and she was SOOOOOOOO NOT a fast agility BC...........................throw a frisbee or put her on stock......................she had a totally different "gear"! <LOL>

Q or NQ, I...............my wife and all of our kids, past and present, LOVE the smooth, FAST flow that encourage speed in NADAC..............................even so, not all of our dogs "got" the "speed component" of that "equation".........................

I'm an OLD FART that's played the agility game for over 25 years now...............................for me, ribbons, titles and awards don't hold any meaning for me anymore.............................and I'm NOT disparaging anyone that likes them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I'm just saying that they really shouldn't be the "end all and be all" of your evaluation of the run that your and your dog(s) had.............................as long as your time in the ring with your bestest buddy FELT GOOD...............................your bestest buddy WAS HAPPY............................and you did THE BEST THAT YOU COULD DO AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME..........................really, in the final analysis, what else truly matters????????????????

NADAC is CHALLENGING....................make NO mistake about that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  But it does NOT put stress on our dogs' bodies to perform...................................NADAC is VERY KIND to their bodies.........................NADAC DOES CHALLENGE the concept of TEAM WORK..........................and, as such, it is very good at exposing those little flaws that exist in virtually everyone's team work........................

While I understand your frustration, as Ms. Sharon has oft times stated.........................a run isn't "perfect" if it has time faults!

NO.........................I'm NOT being sarcastic or a smart *ss.........................at least I'm trying my best not to be either...............................simply making a statement of fact.

OK.........................so let's assume, just for the sake of discussion, that you "unjustly lost a Q" and whatever else went along with it................................how many Qs have you...........................and will you earn because a scribe missed a judge's call of a fault........................the judge missed a fault.......................for those clubs that use a stopwatch and timer that you "got the benefit of the doubt" with the timer's reaction time.............................

Over time, at worst.....................you'll "break even"..............................and very likely "get more than you lost".................................

From the dog's perspective..........................the dog does NOT care about ribbons or titles in the least.......................unless the ribbon comes with a cookie....................the most important thing that your dog wants is your APPROVAL that s/he PLEASED YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To me, it sounds as though you had a couple of TOTALLY AWESOME runs that you should be CELEBRATING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look........................please DON'T sweat the petty things..........................and, by the same token, don't pet the sweaty things!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best wishes.......................hugs & wags,

Al & Barb Ceranko, Pelli & Katie in Ohio......aka Castle Camelot

I have been doing NADAC for about three years now and have never had a problem making time.  Currently I run a high drive boxer and an Australian Shepherd.  In the last NADAC trial, they both had beautiful, clean, fast jumpers rounds.  I came out thinking I had a new Elite title with the Aussie and a new Open title with the boxer.  When I went to check the books, their times were just too slow.  This has never happened before.  They sometimes come in almost 10 seconds under time!  I talked to many others who have fast dogs, i.e. Catahoula, who never have a problem with time and they didn't Q either with a perfect, fast round.  I understand that NADAC times are faster than most other trials but dogs who are going 4.1-4.6 YPS are not cutting it?  This is really disheartening as I love NADAC but if my dogs just aren't fast enough then we will need to look for trials elsewhere.  Has anybody else had this problem?  Are border collies they only dogs that will be competing in NADAC and have any chance at a championship?!  Please give me your insight!  There were a lot of very frustrated dog owners at this trial that were surprised that their dog didn't make time when they usually do.

Thank you!

Melanie Harris
Satine, Morgie, and Quigley
Castle Camelot: Al, Barb, Dred, Gael & Pellinore . . . and from The Bridge Grill & Pub,  Kali, Flurry, Promise, Chico, Romulus, Trix and Tony.

Pam Kaye

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2014, 07:31:39 AM »
Lindsey,

The way you scan in the results is very nice.  Much more informative than the results sent to exhibitors via AU. 

Pam Kaye
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KathieT

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2014, 09:13:43 AM »
I have whined about weavers times forever.  :)  Red can make the 20+P times in all the other classes and usually with time left over if I'm on my game.  Weavers would seem like a nice, clean run and then check her time (8") and she would be over.  Grr!  :D. She needed a weavers at the MDS trial and ironically, she made her time with 7+ seconds and would have even Q'd at the 20+P.  I can no longer complain.  Lol. In Red's case, age is taking a toll but a supplement is helping her.  She will keep getting the supplement but I promised her no more weavers.

Kathie and Red
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2014, 09:32:08 AM »
I have whined about weavers times forever.  :)  Red can make the 20+P times in all the other classes and usually with time left over if I'm on my game.  Weavers would seem like a nice, clean run and then check her time (8") and she would be over.  Grr!  :D. She needed a weavers at the MDS trial and ironically, she made her time with 7+ seconds and would have even Q'd at the 20+P.  I can no longer complain.  Lol. In Red's case, age is taking a toll but a supplement is helping her.  She will keep getting the supplement but I promised her no more weavers.

Kathie and Red

One of the misconceptions in NADAC is that a dog can qualify in the special skills classes with an average run.  If the course is set correctly and the challenges presented then the dog should have to exhibit "special skills" in order to qualify.  Chances, Jumpers, Tunnelers, Touch N Go and Weavers  are special skills classes.  The dog should have above average skills to meet the criteria to qualify. 

In Regular, an average dog will qualify with average skills and average speed.  In the special skills classes the dog should be above average to meet criteria.  So a "nice, clean run" is very likely to not be a qualifying run.

When a competitor enters any of the special skills classes, they should be entering the class with the expectations that the dog has been trained to an above average skill level and that they will be handling at an above average skill level in order to qualify in that particular class. 

If the handler enters with an average dog, then they should expect to barely meet qualifying criteria and possibly not meet qualifying criteria at all.

Special skills classes are about testing the dog's "special skills" for that class.

Sharon
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Jeannie Biggers

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2014, 10:20:23 AM »
Lindsey,

The way you scan in the results is very nice.  Much more informative than the results sent to exhibitors via AU. 



Pam,

AU sends an email with the info in the body which is very hard to read yes... BUT in that same email is a PDF attachment that is very nice looking and easy to read. 

I am sure what Lindsey did in AU is just save the completed catalog in a pdf and uploaded that file to her website... as I do the same thing for the GDAC trials.

Just an FYI  :)

Jeannie
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KarissaKS

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2014, 01:01:27 PM »

When a competitor enters any of the special skills classes, they should be entering the class with the expectations that the dog has been trained to an above average skill level and that they will be handling at an above average skill level in order to qualify in that particular class. 

If the handler enters with an average dog, then they should expect to barely meet qualifying criteria and possibly not meet qualifying criteria at all.

Sharon

That being said, I've always found there to be a bit of a disconnect between the fact that my small dog is able to pop a set of poles at 10, redo that whole set, miss another entry and then go nearly off course on a turn and still make time in Elite Weavers. By contrast, my XL dog came in over time in Weavers for years with "clean" runs from start to finish. While yes, I was able to tighten up his turns and get him moving out well enough to complete 2 V-NATCH awards, I have never found this difference to be altogether "fair."

To be clear, I am not asking for more time. If anything I think times need to be tightened for small dogs to make for a more equitable challenge.
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2014, 02:51:55 PM »

When a competitor enters any of the special skills classes, they should be entering the class with the expectations that the dog has been trained to an above average skill level and that they will be handling at an above average skill level in order to qualify in that particular class. 

If the handler enters with an average dog, then they should expect to barely meet qualifying criteria and possibly not meet qualifying criteria at all.

Sharon

That being said, I've always found there to be a bit of a disconnect between the fact that my small dog is able to pop a set of poles at 10, redo that whole set, miss another entry and then go nearly off course on a turn and still make time in Elite Weavers. By contrast, my XL dog came in over time in Weavers for years with "clean" runs from start to finish. While yes, I was able to tighten up his turns and get him moving out well enough to complete 2 V-NATCH awards, I have never found this difference to be altogether "fair."

To be clear, I am not asking for more time. If anything I think times need to be tightened for small dogs to make for a more equitable challenge.

I totally agree with you that maybe the times for the small dogs might need to be re-evaluated.  If you restart weaves in Elite Weavers, you shouldn't be able to make time.

Sharon
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Vicki Storrs

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2014, 05:42:04 PM »


I totally agree with you that maybe the times for the small dogs might need to be re-evaluated.  If you restart weaves in Elite Weavers, you shouldn't be able to make time.

Sharon
[/quote]

NNNNOOOOOO!!!!!
 :)

Little Jack is 9 years old and almost 11 inches, so he jumps 4" skilled....so can't use the 4" breed exemption drop OR the 4" veteran drop he's eligible for or he'd be jumping negative 4"  :). So in theory he competes against dogs "two" jump heights above him (who are the ones who may make those times seem too lax).  He isn't the fastest little dog and I'm not the best handler and we don't always make time, especially in the last runs of the day in the summer (which I swear can last 8 months long out here in VA!) but if times tighten up too much more we'll have no shot!!!

That thought is my immediate, personal reaction and was typed with a smile  :). That being said, I support whatever NADAC should decide to do.  We'll run for fun, if not for Qs, because he loves it, I love him, and every day he's here is a blessing.
Vicki
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