Author Topic: EGC 2015  (Read 12483 times)

Sharon Nelson

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EGC 2015
« on: December 31, 2014, 08:07:40 PM »
Hi, group.
   We are open to input for the future of EGC.   When EGC started, it was a total separate entity from NADAC.  The scoring and judging were different and EGC was not going to be "NADAC" in the beginning.  It was a different form of agility that focused purely on handling and not on "obstacles".

    EGC was kept separate from NADAC for several years to watch it's progress and potential growth patterns.  Then EGC was integrated into NADAC and records were analyzed for the next two years.

     EGC is either loved or hated.  EGC is "different".  Because EGC doesn't have "obstacles" that dogs recognize as something to be "performed", EGC is all about the "handling" it takes to keep the dog on a correct and efficient path.  Scoring is based upon the correctness of the dog's path instead of incurring obstacle faults for not performing obstacles. 

      Once EGC became a part of the NADAC titling program, several issues arose.  People had a difficult time with the scoring since the points they received for their run was based on how correct their path was instead of how they performed obstacles.  This was a difficult concept for many to understand.  Those that understood the concept of keeping their dog on the most efficient path possible excelled in EGC and loved the challenge of the game. 

EXTREME CHANCES

      From a record keeping standpoint, I have some very clear statistics.  In NADAC, Chances is a difficult class where the dog can be sent to obstacles and are given an ample amount of time for the handler to give cues to encourage the dog to do the obstacles in the correct sequence.  Chances has always proven to be a difficult class for many due to the high level of skill needed to direct the dog through the correct number sequence.  The handler is allowed to resend, redirect and continue to use whatever cues are needed to get the dog to perform the required obstacles at a distance.  In Extreme Chances the same challenges are there but with the added requirement that the PATH the dog is taking is also being judged and faulted.  Needless to say, Extreme Chances is by far the least offered EGC class and the least successful EGC class.  In most cases Extreme Chances is offered only on full EGC days (two rounds of each EGC class in a day).    Extreme Chances if offered on a regular basis in Arizona, northern Alberta, and Southern California, but is rarely offered in other areas, unless it is an EGC trial.  In the areas where Extreme Chances is offered on a regular basis, I am sure that there are fans of Extreme Chances, but they also get an opportunity to work the class on a regular basis and that familiarity helps build popularity. 

    On a record keeping basis, Extreme Chances continues to fade more during each six month period.  We offered Extreme Chances to be added to the VT class options and we still only get rare submissions for Extreme Chances, and most of those are from the same areas that regularly offer the class.

EXTREME GATERS

    Extreme Gaters is a short, fun course that includes one of most people's favorite obstacles, the tunnels!  But the inclusion of the tunnels sometimes add an element of speed that makes it difficult to keep a clean tight path around those gates.  Since the path around the gate is being judged for efficiency, this can possibly add a level of difficulty that is quite a challenge.  One of the biggest drawbacks of Gaters is that once people started turning their dogs around barrels, it didn't seem logical to ask them to make a smooth turn around a flat gate.  When Barrelers was introduced, the entries for Gaters dropped and continues to drop.  Many people have asked for a Barrelers class that is more like Gaters without the gates and with barrels instead.  We have seen a continued increase in interest in Barrelers and a continued decrease in interest for Gaters.

    We added Extreme Gaters as an option for VT runs and it has generated minimal interest as a VT option, and most of those are from the same areas that regularly offer the class.

EXTREME BARRELERS

      Extreme Barrelers is the newest of the EGC classes.  The class is quite difficult since the path the dog is taking is judged for efficiency and the handlers must be very clear and timely in their cues to keep their dog on a very efficient path.  Yet the popularity of the class continues to grow and entries increase with each six month period.  People do enjoy the thrill of watching a dog beautifully curve around a barrel.  With the addition of the barrels in other NADAC classes, the Extreme Barrelers class continues to show an increase in popularity.  The largest input we receive about Barrelers is that people would like to see more than just barrels in the class and maybe an addition of a tunnel or two.  We continue to receive input and are making considerations for future course designs.  We will see what input we get after this post!

     With the increase of entries and the number of clubs offering Barrelers, it does appear that Barrelers is here to stay. 

EXTREME HOOPERS

     Extreme Hoopers has always been the favorite of all EGC classes are far as numbered of times being offered and number of entries.  We are now looking at new ways to safely create the "hoop circle" with another option besides the lattice gates.  The expense of the gates and the amount of storage space and weight are the two biggest factors for clubs resisting the addition of X-Hoopers.  If we can offer other lighter weight and easier storage options, then X-Hoopers would be even more popular than it currently is.  I have now built several circles from x-pens with a foam tube on top and it is working quite nicely.  They stayed up better in the wind and were easy to safely stake.  We will continue to investigate the materials for the "circle" part that would be easier for the clubs.

**************

Our thoughts are that since the EGC classes have combined with NADAC, to consider which classes should remain.  Whichever classes do remain, then the scoring would also be changed to follow the same formats as all other NADAC classes.  That would remove the requirement for a Superior Performance before moving up to the next level and the off course faults and failure to perform would mirror the same faults as other NADAC classes.  Classes would have a Standard Course time just as other NADAC classes.

So we are asking for input for X-Chances and X-Gaters........ should these classes stay as part of the NADAC class program or should we just offer X-Hoopers and Barrelers? 

Our options for X-Hoopers is a safe way for clubs to be able to build the circle without the expense, storage and weight of the gates for the circle.

An option for Barrelers is whether or not to add a couple tunnels to the class to test the speed and turning ability even more than the current class and add more excitement to the course design.

X-Hoopers and Barrelers are here to stay.

We question the retention of X-Gaters and X-Chances.  X-Chances is a pretty clear answer with the low offering of the class and the low entries for the class.  X-Gaters is questionable only because the use of Barrels seems to outweigh the use of gates for turning a dog.

So those are the late night ramblings and thoughts tonight!!

Sharon
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LeeAnne McAdam

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2014, 08:51:39 PM »
I like all the EGC classes and I like the scoring the way it is.  We're not always successful by any means, but I appreciate the challenges that EGC as it currently exists offers.  But I am the first to admit that I don't trial a lot at regular trials and do even less VT so I accept that that means there isn't much weight behind my opinion!  And we will most likely enter and play in whatever form EGC is offered.
Lee Anne

Cindy

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2014, 09:01:25 PM »
Personally, I love Gaters, but I run an older dog who thinks it is a blast and whatever makes her happy makes me happy.  Chances we only enter is there is no other option.

You didn't ask for input on the scoring, but I'm going to address it anyway.  One of the things I love about EGC is that there is no point to going back to "fix" an error.  You can't make it "right" and you just waste time doing so.  When EGC first started, I loved watching the dogs get faster and more confident as they realized this was pedal to the metal with no stopping to jerk them around to "fix" something they did because their handler asked them to do it, but was now wrong.  This was especially true of dogs that tend to run a little slower to make sure they get it right.  Watching them speed up and run with confidence was so much fun.  As someone who rarely fixes things in any class, I have actually found myself wishing that the scoring change would go the other way, and all NADAC be scored on time plus faults.  I know that isn't feasible, I just get so tired of watching dogs be jerked around or chastised for following the path the handler sent them on - just because it wasn't the path the handler really intended.  I'm not talking about people circling around to retry a sequence, but those who pull their dogs back to an obstacle they skipped, even though the dog has already taken the next obstacle, just to do the course by the numbers.  But then again, I know I am in the minority on this one, as for many years now it has not been about the Q for me, but all about the smile on Ritzy's face as she crosses the finish line.  I've even been known to send her for an off course tunnel, just because I know she wants it so badly.  Do I love it when she Qs - yeah, but if she doesn't, as long as she is happy, I love that as well. 

Okay, off my soapbox and back to to celebrating New Year's Eve with the world's two best dogs,  Q or no Q!

Cindy and the Beagles

Linda W. Anderson

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2014, 09:05:34 PM »
We were one of only a  few clubs on the east coast to hold an EGC only trial in 2014 and were hoping to repeat the trial again this year.  I don't have the stats in front of me, but I believe our entries reflected the stats Sharon has posted.  Assuming X-Chances will be dropped, would you consider allowing Numbered or Strategy Hoopers being offered in it's place at an EGC only trial?  Looking forward to seeing what the future of EGC will be.
Linda Anderson
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2014, 09:25:37 PM »
We were one of only a  few clubs on the east coast to hold an EGC only trial in 2014 and were hoping to repeat the trial again this year.  I don't have the stats in front of me, but I believe our entries reflected the stats Sharon has posted.  Assuming X-Chances will be dropped, would you consider allowing Numbered or Strategy Hoopers being offered in it's place at an EGC only trial?  Looking forward to seeing what the future of EGC will be.
Linda Anderson
Star City Canine

Yes, that would be a good option!  Numbered Hoopers, that is.......

Sharon
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DeafSheltieMom

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2014, 09:41:34 PM »
I enjoy all of the egc classes...  even the dreaded chances courses, but I've been on board since I first tried it many moons ago... so I will comment on the two classes that are in question, Chances and Gaters.

For EGC Chances, we have not run them here in SoCal enough.  Most clubs are hesitant to offer EGC at all, so if you add the name "Chances" and they cringe because of a fear of lack of entries.  I've also observed that the times I've been able to run an egc chances course, the courses have been difficult, especially for novice handlers.  And it isn't just maintaining the path, but just getting a send out to the distance obstacles.  EGC is already a tough sell, add the dreaded line to it, and people really shy away from the challenge, or become too intimidated to do well.  It's a mental and training issue, but a lack of success at the Novice level really affects how people view the class.  Fewer Novice people want to enter EGC Chances because they lacked success, which then affects whether or not clubs will offer it.  It is an endless negative loop.  I personally would like to see it stay, but I can see the writing on the wall that EGC Chances is more likely to be dropped.

As far as Gaters go, I think it is a great way to introduce people to EGC.  It includes tunnels, which is a familiar (and fun) obstacle, along with unfamiliar gates that the dogs I've seen have no issues with.  Folks then can learn the ins and outs of the rules of the EGC game in a more comfortable course setting.  Dogs become faster because they become familiar with the game, and that creates more handler challenges.  As teams move up, the challenges increase as well... so the familiarity is never boring.  Some of the most fun (and nail biting!) runs I've ever seen have been Gaters courses.  I'd hate to see it go... 

If tunnels are added to Barrelers courses, then in my mind, the challenge of Barrelers changes as well.  Part of the "fun" (or insanity) of Barrelers is remembering the course in the first place, with just Barrels on the course!  My aging mind would probably welcome the change, but I *will* miss standing in the middle of a course wondering where the *heck* I am  :o ... it's part of the fun!  Getting it "right" is such a thrill after those moments!!!  If it becomes necessary to combine Barrelers and Gaters, then I will go with it, but I will be an "old-timer" that will long for the "good old days"!   ;D

I'm wondering if Barrelers has an increase in entries because it is an easy class to offer (just 5-6 barrels) and because barrels are now a part of NADAC courses (I've seen them in Regular and TnG)...

I agree with Cindy about the scoring, in that I love how you should just keep going... it helped me with my ring-challenged scaredy dog, who barely trots when stressed.  He started "running" because of EGC... it was all about him playing with me and he was NEVER wrong.  He started to let his guard down (a little).  It was rewarding for me, because he'd still get points even though he was slow, but really, it was encouraging us to just develop as a team.  I also enjoyed the scoring, because I would push the envelope for the "next" level... 10 points or 15 points depending upon the dog.   It kept the challenge alive for me.  But I'm probably in the minority as well...  I've been playing the game almost since its inception so the rules don't intimidate me like it does newbies.
-Dayle
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Alanna Leach

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2014, 11:25:03 PM »
My area is one of the areas that has enjoyed EGC.  We learned about handling the path, and I believe it has made many of the teams in our area excel at pathwork! 

Having said that, I now incorporate EGC in my NADAC trials.  I offer XBR and XHP as extra classes, and often do XGT and XCH as VT options.  I like XBR as is.  I struggled with it at the start, but trained through it and now my dog and I love it.  Have always loved XHP, gates and all.  I use the gates often for other things at trials (barriers), so storage has never been an issue for me.

One of the things I love about NADAC, things are always evaluated! 

Alanna
Avalon Agility
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Canada


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Sharon Nelson

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2014, 11:53:37 PM »
Great, GREAT input so far!! 

Thanks and awesome thoughts to ponder on.  I love the input from different perspectives.

Great input on the scoring thoughts....

Sharon
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Shirlene Clark

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2015, 01:36:37 AM »
Well you know how I feel about EGC Sharon :)  I love it all and Australia has a fairly keen EGC following and I think many teams that are keen on EGC have developed in their traditional class performances as a team because of EGC.  Apart from knowing how I feel you also know that I will support any decision you make as I do know that you evaluate and think through it all with the best interests of people, dogs, clubs and organisation.
Shirlene Clark
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Deni

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2015, 01:39:23 AM »
We have several trials a year in our area that offer all the NADAC/EGC classes.  I personally love the EGC classes and have been a big promoter of the program.  I like the way the courses are scored, but I have found it a lot more difficult to Q in the Elite level  ;D.  The Es come a lot faster and more frequently when we can only have 3 faults or less and the courses are more challenging too!  (Still love it.) 

I have wondered about the need for Hoopers and Extreme Hoopers.  At our trials we still offer both because people who are working for their All Arounds ask for Hoopers.  I get a lot of requests to do an extra TTW instead of Hoopers also.  It seems like the participants for the Numbered Hoopers are lower than other classes and they decline even more when we offer Strategic Hoopers instead.  (Maybe that's an inaccurate impression, but it seems like exhibitors skip that class more frequently than others.)

Have you considered eliminating Hoopers? I believe exhibitors can already use the Extreme Hoopers in it's place for the All Around and maybe that would encourage clubs to offer XHoopers more?  Or maybe keep all the EGC classes and use that as the way to complete the All Around instead?

In regards to the Gaters class - love it!  So much fun, but I can see the value in combining it with Barrelers.  I don't particularly like the hoop on gate setup.  Not because we can't do it, but because the dogs have to step over gate feet and hoop base in order to execute the course successfully.  I've had my dog cut his pad on the PVC digging in to make the turn.  It was probably more of a fluke accident, but I try to make sure the ends are capped now to avoid this type of issue happening again. 

I enjoy the newest Barrelers format, but it is an awful lot of Barrelers.  I think the biggest challenge for me is remembering where I'm supposed to go while my dog is flying around the course.  One brain fade and we are toast!  Quite the rush when all goes as planned though.

I also enjoy Extreme Chances, but I find it fairly similar to Gaters.  The lines aren't really of concern to me, but I do notice it's not a fan favorite class.  I think the line itself offers a challenge that is intimidating especially to newer exhibitors.  I always tell them just to try it and cross the line if it isn't working!  It is a fun class and a good way to enhance bonus line skills (staying on path with distance, directionals, speed, etc..)

Sorry for the rambling, just typing while I think.  I guess my overall opinion is that I would hate to lose the Extreme Hoopers, so I'm glad that class is popular.  I really enjoy Gaters and Barrelers, but combining the two sounds like a good compromise if necessary.  Extreme Chances I'd like to see stay, but I understand supply and demand.   


 
 
Denise

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2015, 06:09:59 AM »
EGC is not offered much in our part of the country.  I try to enter it whenever possible.  Our club does not offer it as we don't have gates or enough barrels. 

I personally love Gaters and X chances.  I only enter barrelers and hoopers because they are offered at the same time.  I'm really not sure I would continue to enter any EGC classes if they are reduced to only barrelers and hoopers.  Barrelers has always seemed un NADAC like to me as far as flow goes. I've never cared much for the ring of gates in X hoopers; I feel like it causes a visual disconnect.

As far as storage of gates for Hoopers, that is a big concern for clubs like ours that store equipment in trailers and offer multiple venues.  We already have 2 trailers.

I would be sad to see X Chances and Gaters disappear, but understand as  I'm usually in the minority.

Gina Pizzo
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Dev Sperber, Jake, Lil, and Takoda

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2015, 06:24:17 AM »
Gaters was my favorite EGC class, due to the inclusion of straight tunnels where my dogs could totally "let loose" and think for themselves between turns.   Turns around gates were fluid but my dogs are small.  My dog Lil practically rubbed her side along the gates due to running such a tight line, which she does naturally around gates more so than barrels for some reason.   

Gaters was only offered at one or maybe two trials I attended in the NE but both my dogs appeared to love it and Lil had an index of 100+ which indicates to me that she really LOVED it!  I think I heard that one reason Gaters stopped being offered was because Qs in Gaters were not needed to qualify for Triple Crown at Champs whereas Barrelers and Hoopers Qs were.    I could be wrong about that though.

I stopped entering Barrelers after seeing Lil lack her usual gusto when running Barrelers with hoops... which I think are now gone.  I felt she was being obedient vs. having fun.  I think the aspect that wasn't fun for her was how much I had to rein her in mentally to get her through those hoops and to turn in the correct direction around all those Barrels.  RE: Jake, I think all those tight turns are just not comfortable for him. He has always been a Loopy little guy....both physically and mentally (HA HA but true) so Barrelers just might not be his thing and I'm OK with that.  :)

I'd personally love to see a Barrelers course that was set up a bit more like Gators...with straight or slightly curved tunnels mixed in.   I think my dogs would love it. even Mr. Loopy! 

Dev, Jake, and Lil
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Billie Rosen

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2015, 06:29:31 AM »
I really like EGC as it presents challenges beyond that we see in the non-EGC NADAC classes and that spells fun in my book.  My biggest frustration with it is, as Sharon points out, most clubs only offer XBR and XHP when they do offer EGC.  I personally find XBR, Barrelers, the most unexciting of the EGC games, because it offers the same challenges over and over.  The primary test of XBR is one of memory - can I remember the pattern?  The current configuration is really unexciting to me - it is the same few challenges over and over.  I much preferred it when there were hoops, so adding back hoops and tunnels would be a big improvement, in my book.

I personally prefer X Chances and X Gaters much more than the X Hoopers.  XCC is really challenging, and I love that.  However, about the only time I get to do it is when my club offers it (Jumping Chollas does 3 or 4 all EGC trials a year).  Same for XGT, which I really like.  And I think X Gaters gives those trying EGC for the first time a lot of confidence about their ability to handle an EGC course.

So my "vote" is for EGC to stay, keep all 4 classes, but make Barrelers more varied and interesting by adding in hoops and tunnels.  And give clubs an incentive to offer X Chances and X Gaters.  Yes, they are hard, but that is their allure.  Regular Chances is hard too, but clubs offer it, and people enter it and train for it, because there is an incentive to do so.
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Mary Kapner

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2015, 08:15:54 AM »
Although, not one of the questions you have asked input for, I would like to see some hoops added to the other levels of Barrelers, not just elite.  Elite Barrelers really helped my standard poodle, who has a great stride, learn to tighten up around barrels.

I like all the EGC classes.  They all have been so challenging, fun and I am happy I have been able to participate in them all.  Thx!
Mary Kapner
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Wild Terriers

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Re: EGC 2015
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2015, 08:39:17 AM »
I personally have been a HUGE fan of EGC and I run it every opportunity I get, I have also been known to travel great distances for the opportunity to run EGC (Virginia, Iowa, Oklahoma, Arizona, Oregon just a few states which come to mind).  Some friends and I also had a set of gates made so that we could offer them to clubs who wanted to offer Extreme Hoopers, to date, the first club who used them built their own set afterwards and another club who had arranged to use them ended up building their own and I have another club who is going to use them in April, so I will continue my quest to promote and provide EGC, but if there is a lighter, more cost effective way for clubs, I am all for that. 

For me, I would be very sad to see the scoring change - for several reasons, first I like that it is different and that fixing things is not an option, I also find it encouraging for those who have never run it before, to be able to tell them, if you get a score, you get points - I find that it makes it less daunting for those who have not run it before.  I also would be very, very sad to see Extreme Chances go away.  I find it to be very challenging, but very rewarding when done correctly.  That being said, when I encourage clubs to offer EGC, I do tend to steer them away from Extreme Chances as people seem VERY intimidated by the class and I have had to weigh my personal desires (to have lots of Extreme Chances) and my desire to promote EGC, so of course promoting EGC wins.  I would very much like to take advantage of the VT availability of Chances and Gaters and if they are still available in the Spring I plan to do so.  I have not had a place to do them, but I have a good friend who is in the process of building an agility field and I have every intention of visiting often. 

I do believe one of the reasons that Barrelers is the most offered class is due to the ease of setting it and that clubs have barrels.  I find when Barrelers is offered here on the East Coast it is usually the last class on Sunday.  Hmmm, adding tunnels to Barrelers - I'm really not sure how I feel about that - my first thought was - cool, but my second thought was, would it make it to much like Gaters. . . .   I'll have to think on that one some more.  I do have to say, of the four classes, Barrelers is my least favorite.  I love Barrels, and so do my dogs, but for some reason, I really struggle with remembering the courses and I do not tend to have an issue remembering courses.  I also find that once I start to run barrelers, I have no conscious awareness of drawing the path and the connection with my dogs, which is one of the biggest reasons I love EGC.  I know that I do draw the path, I've seen videos (tee hee hee), but it is just a different feeling for me.  And, yes, perhaps it is a training issue and I am a.o.k. with that, so I am not asking for changes for "me" just tossing out my impressions.  I really was enjoying the hoops being added to the barrels in Elite, but the last couple of times I've run Barrelers there have not been any hoops.   I personally would like to see some hoops added to all levels of Barrelers (the hoops used on the barrels), but maybe it is just me, but that seemed to give me more of a "visual" when walking and running the course, and I felt more connected to the path and my dogs when they were there, again, this may be a "me" issue. . . . . .

Extreme Hoopers - absolutely my favorite, favorite, favorite class in all agility.  My dogs and I love it and I know after we've run Extreme Hoopers, we run traditional agility better - more connected, smooter, just better.  I would love, love, love to see more clubs offer it.

Extreme Gaters - I really enjoy this class as well - I like how it combines the tunnels with the gates, I find it to be fun, fun, fun and my dogs seem to really enjoy it, and I always learn something about my handling skills (or, lack thereof - tee hee hee)

I will support EGC in whatever way it evolves, but I for one am hoping it retains much of what it has evolved to today.

I am very glad I decided to start the year off with a visit to the forum (I have been off of the forum for quite awhile with life stuff), and one of my goals is to get caught up on the forum and stay current!!!

Happy New Year!!!

Karen and the Wild Terriers
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