Author Topic: Championships courses  (Read 22897 times)

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #120 on: August 15, 2016, 08:13:02 PM »
I have not been to Champs since 2004, but did attend 6 years in a row.  I can honestly say I never even thought about making it into the finals.  The reason I went was soley to spend some time  having fun playing agility and meeting new people.  I don't go anymore because people are entirely too serious about it and the days became so long that there wasn't any time to go out and enjoy a meal and an adult beverage with friends you only see once or twice a year. 

Gina Pizzo

I have to agree Gina, that in the mid-2000's things got ugly.  We had competitors that HAD to win, no matter what.  But most if not all of those intense handlers have moved on.

I do think that the current NADAC competitors are exactly the types that you describe!  They socialize, they cheer, they have fun with their dogs!  There will always be a few that really, really feel the need to win above all else, but that is a real minority and 98% of the people are happy, fun people!!

I think you would have fun again!!

Sharon
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MoabDiane

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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #121 on: August 15, 2016, 09:17:17 PM »
As far as the "old" days of Champs....I haven't been as often as some (but seems like a heckuva lot!).

I really like waaaay back when, when we had the banquet. The "awards" announcements did tend to go on forever (so many!), but it was really wonderful to be able to sit with even just 8 NADAC friends (small tables) - some of whom you may not have met before that evening - and have some relaxed social time.  Not worrying about missing someone's run(s), not worrying about missing it to work, not just sitting with a few friends in the bleachers sipping a non-alcoholic beverage and munching chips,  just an hour or so of relaxed social time.  If it wasn't for the banquet when Shirlene was here that time, I might never have connected with her - and now have a friend very far away!  I totally get why we can't do that anymore - please don't make the days any longer! 
We can still make new friends in the bleacher, but it was a fine, sweet time back then.  What memories are made of....

diane


Sharon Nelson

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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #122 on: August 15, 2016, 09:26:23 PM »
As far as the "old" days of Champs....I haven't been as often as some (but seems like a heckuva lot!).

I really like waaaay back when, when we had the banquet. The "awards" announcements did tend to go on forever (so many!), but it was really wonderful to be able to sit with even just 8 NADAC friends (small tables) - some of whom you may not have met before that evening - and have some relaxed social time.  Not worrying about missing someone's run(s), not worrying about missing it to work, not just sitting with a few friends in the bleachers sipping a non-alcoholic beverage and munching chips,  just an hour or so of relaxed social time.  If it wasn't for the banquet when Shirlene was here that time, I might never have connected with her - and now have a friend very far away!  I totally get why we can't do that anymore - please don't make the days any longer! 
We can still make new friends in the bleacher, but it was a fine, sweet time back then.  What memories are made of....

diane

I loved the awards banquets from the past!  So many memories!  And to have a night with human friends, laughing, celebrating success, etc was priceless!

I do wish that there was a way to have more socializing now...... so many people sit in the stands in "their group" of club members or people whom they trial with..... I wish there was a way to get people to socialize more nowadays and meet new friends and leave the event with new found friends.  I do miss that about the old days... although I don't miss the late nights!!

One of my best memories was when all of our stuff was taken at the Canadian border and so during the banquet Gro brought previously won awards and when people came up to the podium, they got to "touch" the replica of what they would receive later!!  Fun night that felt like a disaster because no awards were there, but ended up being one of the best awards dinners ever!

And then there was the year (1996) when Becky wore a slinky, TIGHT, short, red dress and she ended up in the closet......  one drink too many maybe???

And while others came up and got their "award", Cynthia Ernat would come up and get her BOX of awards every year!!

The memories........... priceless...........

Sharon
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Wild Terriers

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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #123 on: August 15, 2016, 10:43:38 PM »
And, there was the dancing in Wyoming - I can still see Gary's face when he arrived from judging!!!  I only got to go to a few banquets, but they sure were FUN!!!!  But I'm seriously not looking for longer days at Champs - grin.  Looking forward to seeing all my far away friends!!!

Karen
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Shirlene Clark

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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #124 on: August 15, 2016, 11:51:30 PM »
.  If it wasn't for the banquet when Shirlene was here that time, I might never have connected with her - and now have a friend very far away!  I totally get why we can't do that anymore - please don't make the days any longer! 
We can still make new friends in the bleacher, but it was a fine, sweet time back then.  What memories are made of....

diane

I so remember that :)  Castle Rock.  Wendy and I came to the USA went to Champs.  After a very long day there was the banquet.  Wendy and I were a little late as we zipped back tot the hotel to change.  We walked in not quite knowing where to sit.  You and your friends invited us to join you at your table and we had a great time.  Really fond memory and yep a friendship was forged :)
Shirlene Clark
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Becky Woodruff

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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #125 on: August 16, 2016, 07:45:24 AM »
Let's forget THAT memory..........
And there were way too many doors in that room, which explains the closet thing!
Becky


And then there was the year (1996) when Becky wore a slinky, TIGHT, short, red dress and she ended up in the closet......  one drink too many maybe???

Becky Woodruff

Kyle

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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #126 on: August 16, 2016, 08:07:42 AM »

I do wish that there was a way to have more socializing now...... so many people sit in the stands in "their group" of club members or people whom they trial with..... I wish there was a way to get people to socialize more nowadays and meet new friends and leave the event with new found friends.  I do miss that about the old days... although I don't miss the late nights!!

Sharon

I never got to attend a banquet, and maybe I just have weird socialization habits, but I make new friends every year at Champs! I end up having interesting conversations waiting in line for lunch (or dinner, or breakfast, or late evening snacks!) at the concession stand. Ya meet just about all the gals at some point during the week in the Ladies room!  :) There's always fun and happy people anywhere near the vendors. Then, if you're near the raffle stuff, you can have some friendly fun vying for who is going to win what basket! Will it be you or me??!!  ;D Just walk past the stands and it's easy to end up hanging out with different groups to catch up and meet new folks. On one of my "pass throughs" I had a ball meeting the Aussies! Yay Aussies! ;D

In Utah, I've had some wonderful chats with folks as we sit on that little grassy hilly place just outside the building as we're waiting to go run. I've had the most interesting, varied and outright hilarious conversations out there!

Interestingly enough, I've met some new friends when I'm "manning" one of the boxes as folks are lined up waiting to run. Yes, it's clear who doesn't want to socialize right then but then there's others who find it relaxing to have a little chat. Actually, I LOVE manning one of the boxes! To who's ever in charge of workers, please let me have that job!!  ;D

The bestest place was in Wyoming...where we all set up in the building. We could meander around the building yakking with folks from all over, oohing and ahhing over their use of purple! In Utah, using the stalls, it's not nearly as easy or comfortable since I don't want to be walking down an aisle way and set off dogs in stalls. And, when you want to spend extra time with your dog (in Utah) you are basically separated from everyone else by the stall itself. It's hard to sit as a group, having extra chairs handy for folks who stop by, because then you're not sitting with your dog...makes me sad... Is there ANY WAY we could EVER go back to Wyoming??? Pleeeease???

What would truly make many of us really happy is if Sharon had the ability to take some time off working so hard at Champs to come out and just visit with us! I'd sure like to see you at least once, before we stop by, as we're leaving, to say good bye and thanks for the super fun time...

I'm reeeeally looking forward to seeing all the folks I rarely get to hang out with and who put a smile on my face! Can't wait to the amazing purple outfits that Karen will come up with this year! Are you bringing the pasties again??  ;D ;D ;D

-Kyle
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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #127 on: August 16, 2016, 08:53:32 AM »
A little late to the game for this conversation, but here is my .02 worth.

I feel that adding the hoop cirlce is indeed an unfair test at Champs.  For those of us in the Midwest (Illinois), only 2 clubs even offer this choice of a run, and both are 3-4 hour drive for me.  None of the local clubs offer it.  Those clubs that do offer it, just started so I have seen this type of setup 1X.  And to be totally honest, I just don't like it.  My little dog is only 11" tall and he can't see me through the gates.  NADAC is supposed to be about "drawing the path" but instead this uses verbals.  While I understand that there are people that LOVE this game, and I am willing to try it at times, to put it as a test at Champs isn't really fair.  It definitely benefits those competitors on the west coast that see it all the time. 

In my hypothetical example.  Competitor A is from Tennessee.  Has never seen a hoop cirlce.  Competitor B is from Oregon.  Sees a hoop cirlce at every trial and runs it.  Champs is running a A is leading the competition by 30 points.  Now has to run the hoop cirlce.  Never seen it, never run it and they get 40 faults, all while B, runs it flawlessly because they have seen it many times.  Is that really fair that A now loses out because of something they lack control over.

On top of this, while it is great that an advance notice has been given, it doesn't really do many people a lot of good.  The majority are not lucky enough to own enough equipment or have a large enough space to actually practice this on our own.  Clubs and rental spaces in the area do not have this type of equipment available either.  Gates can be made, but now they are using expens and those are expensive to purchase.  So shy of purchasing the equipment and lugging it somewhere, practice may not be feasible either for the average competitor. 

If there are trials between now and then, AND they had X-hoopers,  the competitor would be starting in novice, which Champs level courses would be higher than that so the comparison is minimal.  Yes it would put them on a cirlce, but the reality is, the technical level isn't there.  And if they are not trialing before-hand is it really prudent to try to run in Champs without any type of practice before hand?  The first time I put my dog on gates, she jumped them.....

As far as having extreme hoopers in regular trials.... I currently run 3 dogs (soon to be 4) and the cost of adding another run to the day is really cost-prohibitive.  As I said, most trials are not local anymore, so with my 3 dogs, the cost for a typical trial in entry fees alone is between $360-$400, and that is without running all events.  Add to that, the cost of fuel, hotels, food, etc. and a trial weekend could get upwards of $600.  Because of this, I have to pick and choose my courses that I run with my dogs.  I run the courses that THEY enjoy, and quite honestly, one of my dogs just doesn't like hoops at all.  She doesn't like them on a regular course and she most certainly doesn't like an all hoopers course.  It just isn't her cup of tea.  So why would I pay for a run that she and I don't have fun with?  Better question is "why would I force her to run something that she doesn't enjoy?"  And as a side note, she doesn't like tunnelers either so I rarely run her in that.  My other dog, loves to run fast, so for him, the hoops are OK.  BUT, he is little and the hoop circle for him is not fun because he can't see me through the gates.  And yes, I have run it with him.  He did fine, but I could tell that he was frustrated with not being able to see me and my cues clearly.  Did he Q?  Yes, at the novice level but is it something he had a TON of fun running.  Nope..... And for him to go clear across when I can't go past the gates is not likely either....   I have never run with expens, but I can see where people don't like those either if they have a big, fast dog.  The dog may try to come to them and not see the expen and crash. 

So while I am all about trying new things at Champs, this takes a completely new skill set that many do not have the opportunity to work with.  In 2013, there was the extreme games course that was scored like extreme games.  Most people in the midwest had never seen this before.  Most of us crashed and burned because of it.  However, with that course, at least you could step in and help your dog through the course.  The same thing with the 2015 barrelers course.  We had never seen hoops on barrels before, but you could be there with your dog to help out if they got in trouble.  All of the training that you have done prepares you for that.  However, with the hoop circle, the training is different.  Yes, it is only hoops, but if your dog gets stuck in the middle, or on the outside, you can't go in and help them.  And YES, Champs is supposed to be the "Best of the best".  Absolutely, it is.  But are you really playing on a level ground when 1 group of people has a definite advantage over a second group right from the start simply because of the area that they live and compete in?

« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 09:20:30 AM by Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto »
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #128 on: August 16, 2016, 09:45:37 AM »
A little late to the game for this conversation, but here is my .02 worth.

I feel that adding the hoop cirlce is indeed an unfair test at Champs.  For those of us in the Midwest (Illinois), only 2 clubs even offer this choice of a run, and both are 3-4 hour drive for me.  None of the local clubs offer it.  Those clubs that do offer it, just started so I have seen this type of setup 1X.  And to be totally honest, I just don't like it.  My little dog is only 11" tall and he can't see me through the gates.  NADAC is supposed to be about "drawing the path" but instead this uses verbals.  While I understand that there are people that LOVE this game, and I am willing to try it at times, to put it as a test at Champs isn't really fair.  It definitely benefits those competitors on the west coast that see it all the time. 

In my hypothetical example.  Competitor A is from Tennessee.  Has never seen a hoop cirlce.  Competitor B is from Oregon.  Sees a hoop cirlce at every trial and runs it.  Champs is running a A is leading the competition by 30 points.  Now has to run the hoop cirlce.  Never seen it, never run it and they get 40 faults, all while B, runs it flawlessly because they have seen it many times.  Is that really fair that A now loses out because of something they lack control over.

On top of this, while it is great that an advance notice has been given, it doesn't really do many people a lot of good.  The majority are not lucky enough to own enough equipment or have a large enough space to actually practice this on our own.  Clubs and rental spaces in the area do not have this type of equipment available either.  Gates can be made, but now they are using expens and those are expensive to purchase.  So shy of purchasing the equipment and lugging it somewhere, practice may not be feasible either for the average competitor. 

If there are trials between now and then, AND they had X-hoopers,  the competitor would be starting in novice, which Champs level courses would be higher than that so the comparison is minimal.  Yes it would put them on a cirlce, but the reality is, the technical level isn't there.  And if they are not trialing before-hand is it really prudent to try to run in Champs without any type of practice before hand?  The first time I put my dog on gates, she jumped them.....

As far as having extreme hoopers in regular trials.... I currently run 3 dogs (soon to be 4) and the cost of adding another run to the day is really cost-prohibitive.  As I said, most trials are not local anymore, so with my 3 dogs, the cost for a typical trial in entry fees alone is between $360-$400, and that is without running all events.  Add to that, the cost of fuel, hotels, food, etc. and a trial weekend could get upwards of $600.  Because of this, I have to pick and choose my courses that I run with my dogs.  I run the courses that THEY enjoy, and quite honestly, one of my dogs just doesn't like hoops at all.  She doesn't like them on a regular course and she most certainly doesn't like an all hoopers course.  It just isn't her cup of tea.  So why would I pay for a run that she and I don't have fun with?  Better question is "why would I force her to run something that she doesn't enjoy?"  And as a side note, she doesn't like tunnelers either so I rarely run her in that.  My other dog, loves to run fast, so for him, the hoops are OK.  BUT, he is little and the hoop circle for him is not fun because he can't see me through the gates.  And yes, I have run it with him.  He did fine, but I could tell that he was frustrated with not being able to see me and my cues clearly.  Did he Q?  Yes, but is it something he had a TON of fun running.  Nope..... I have never run with expens, but I can see where people don't like those either if they have a big, fast dog.  The dog may try to come to them and not see the expen and crash. 

So while I am all about trying new things at Champs, this takes a completely new skill set that many do not have the opportunity to work with.  In 2013, there was the extreme games course that was scored like extreme games.  Most people in the midwest had never seen this before.  Most of us crashed and burned because of it.  However, with that course, at least you could step in and help your dog through the course.  The same thing with the 2015 barrelers course.  We had never seen hoops on barrels before, but you could be there with your dog to help out if they got in trouble.  All of the training that you have done prepares you for that.  However, with the hoop circle, the training is different.  Yes, it is only hoops, but if your dog gets stuck in the middle, or on the outside, you can't go in and help them.  And YES, Champs is supposed to be the "Best of the best".  Absolutely, it is.  But are you really playing on a level ground when 1 group of people has a definite advantage over a second group right from the start simply because of the area that they live and compete in?

Audri, I am sorry that in six years the clubs in your area have never offered X-Hoopers.  Every NADAC club should support every NADAC class at least once a year. 

We don't use the gates, so your little dogs will see you just fine.

The tests at the champs will be at the Novice level.  If a dog can pass between two hoops or dog a pinwheel or reverse pinwheel, they are fine.

As has been proven by many in the past six years, you can set up the exact pattern without any gates or x-pens and see what your dog can and can't do even without the restrictions.  If your dog can do a pinwheel without you in the middle of the circle, then yes, you will have an issue with the gate circle.  If your dog can't do a reverse pinwheel without you being right there with them, then yes, you will have a problem with the gate circle.  You will have the exact same issues as you have with there are no gates or x-pens.

If your dog can't do a pinwheel, a reverse pinwheel or pass between two hoops right next to the handler, then that is what is "unfair".  The other NADAC classes, like Chances, also ask for directional changes like reverse pinwheels or direct pinwheels.  All NADAC classes might ask a dog to pass through two hoops with you next to them.

Before you really hate something you haven't tried, you could start at step one.  Set up a pinwheel and see if you can send your dog through it without stepping into the inner part of the circle.  Step two would be to set up a reverse pinwheel and see if you can do a reverse pinwheel without going into the inner part of the circle.  That is all that the wings of a hoop circle is, a test on whether or not you can do a pinwheel or reverse pinwheel without stepping into the center of the circle.

The bottom of the hoop circle is just a dog passing through two hoops next to the handler.

I do think that you are being unfair to me by showing such negativity for something you have never tried.  If you work the tests being asked for........ a pinwheel without the handler next to them, a pinwheel without the handler next to them and a pass between two hoops............ if you set up those tests and your dog can't do them, then yes, you can blame it on a hoop circle that you have issues.  If you can set up those three simple tests and perfect those, then you could have some trust in your own handling and training and know that you are going to hammer those tests!

The harder those sequences are without the x-pens, then yes, you might have a problem.  Less likely though, since the x-pens "corral" the dog and show them exactly where to go.

Please set up the sequences first and work on those before you declare anything "unfair".

By the same token, it is unfair to ask for more sets of weaves in the weaves highlighted course, since you don't see that on every weekend.  It is an advantage to those that have great weaving skills, those teams will score higher on that run.

It is unfair to ask for more contacts than normal on the contact course.  It is an advantage for those that have great contacts and they will score higher on that course.

It is unfair to ask those BIG dogs to crouch down into the tunnels on the tunnel course.  It is an advantage for the fast medium sized dogs and they will score higher on that course.

It is unfair to ask dogs to do so many jumps on the jumpers highlighted course.  The dogs with great jumping skills will have an advantage and will score higher on that course.

It is unfair to ask dogs to do so many hoops on the hoopers run.  The dogs that love hoops and handlers can really draw great paths through hoop sequences will score better in that round.

So yes, it might be unfair to test whether a handler can direct a dog through a pinwheel without stepping into the middle of the pinwheel, and test whether a handler can direct their dog through a reverse pinwheel without stepping into the middle of the pinwheel.  Yes a team that can perform those two tests are going to have an advantage and score higher in that round.

If one doesn't work to improve their weaves, I guess that is unfair.

If one doesn't work to improve their contacts, I guess that is unfair.

If one doesn't work on improving their jumps, their tunnels, their hoops, I guess that is unfair.

If one doesn't work on improving THEY are giving the advantage to those that do work on improving.  The course doesn't give the advantage, the training and teamwork gives the advantage.

Please do me a favor and go set up that pinwheel and work it as a forward pinwheel and a reverse pinwheel, no gates needed, no x-pens needed.   That will tell you exactly where or not the hoop circle is unfair.  It will tell you if working to strengthen those two moves will give YOU an advantage on the hoop circle course.  Take the advantage or declare it unfair........ I believe that you are a handler that will rise to the challenge and you will make pinwheels your strength and trust your training and handling skills.

Sharon

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JimmyS.

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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #129 on: August 16, 2016, 10:53:20 AM »



By the same token, it is unfair to ask for more sets of weaves in the weaves highlighted course, since you don't see that on every weekend.  It is an advantage to those that have great weaving skills, those teams will score higher on that run.

It is unfair to ask for more contacts than normal on the contact course.  It is an advantage for those that have great contacts and they will score higher on that course.

It is unfair to ask those BIG dogs to crouch down into the tunnels on the tunnel course.  It is an advantage for the fast medium sized dogs and they will score higher on that course.

It is unfair to ask dogs to do so many jumps on the jumpers highlighted course.  The dogs with great jumping skills will have an advantage and will score higher on that course.

It is unfair to ask dogs to do so many hoops on the hoopers run.  The dogs that love hoops and handlers can really draw great paths through hoop sequences will score better in that round.

So yes, it might be unfair to test whether a handler can direct a dog through a pinwheel without stepping into the middle of the pinwheel, and test whether a handler can direct their dog through a reverse pinwheel without stepping into the middle of the pinwheel.  Yes a team that can perform those two tests are going to have an advantage and score higher in that round.

If one doesn't work to improve their weaves, I guess that is unfair.

If one doesn't work to improve their contacts, I guess that is unfair.

If one doesn't work on improving their jumps, their tunnels, their hoops, I guess that is unfair.

Apples to Oranges.
Dogs see weaves, contacts, etc, every trial....in my VERY short time in this sport, i have seen multiple dogs very intimidated by the circle and some that have run into the gates/X-Pens.


Do i think this hoop circle is "unfair"?
No, not at all, i like challenge and i am NOT worried about my very good but very novice dog working it for the first time at champs.

BUT

That doesnt not mean i dont FULLY understand why competitors believe it is "unfair"......


Who are we to tell someone they will like something? THAT doesnt seem "fair"



I dont like X-hoopers.... so i understand how the "unfair" group feels.....
I like challenge and am confident my dog will have ZERO issue with it.... so i understand the "its fun, just try it" group....

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Wild Terriers

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« Reply #130 on: August 16, 2016, 10:58:04 AM »
I'm sorry but I have seen hundreds and hundreds of dogs do Extreme Hoopers at all levels all over the contra and I have only ever seen a couple of dogs have an initial issue - what you describe just isn't "the norm" - and I will say again the hoop circle (whether it has been seen by people or not) has been around for 6+ years - seriously - it's hoops which are seen at every NADAC trial.

Karen
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 11:00:31 AM by Wild Terriers »
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JimmyS.

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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #131 on: August 16, 2016, 11:05:05 AM »
I'm sorry but I have seen hundreds and hundreds of dogs do Extreme Hoopers at all levels all over the contra and I have only ever seen a couple of dogs have an initial issue - what you describe just isn't "the norm" - and I will say again the hoop circle (whether it has been seen by people or not) has been around for 6+ years - seriously - it's hoops which are seen at every NADAC trial.

Karen
Awesome!! Im glad you havent seem some of the issues we have.

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LeeAnne McAdam

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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #132 on: August 16, 2016, 11:13:37 AM »
I would have to agree with Karen.  I saw many, many dogs when I was trialing back east that not only didn't have issues with a gate circle, they seemed to understand it and love it in very short order.  I also used to run a 10" dog and at the time I ran him, we were both very novice.  The first time we saw a gate circle was at a seminar, and I believe he had it down by his second turn.  I've been hooked ever since.

As someone now who is lucky enough to be able to trial in Bend, I would like to clarify a possible misconception.  We have had the gate circle set up at a trial, alone or as part of a regular course, a whopping one time that I can remember.  So we don't see it at every trial.  In fact, when Sharon put it out there, I was reminded how much I missed it!
Lee Anne

Wild Terriers

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« Reply #133 on: August 16, 2016, 11:20:20 AM »
As quoted from Audri -

NADAC is supposed to be about "drawing the path" but instead this .....
-----------

Audri - this is simply false - Extreme Hoopers is more about drawing the path than any other class that NADAC offers, it is also the class that will highlight a teams deficiencies in timing - I find it interesting that you know so much about a class you have admittedly hardly seen.  I have run this class since it's inception and can tell you that small dogs have no issue with it whether gates or ex-pens unless the handler goes into the area I call 'the Bermuda Triangle" , in which case 99% of the time there will be an issue with any size dog since the handler has removed their ability to draw the path or use body language to communicate with their dog - at that point it can become more verbal but rarely successful - this class is ALL about drawing the path, timing and the connection of the team. 

And, this is the perspective of a person who has done the class, loves the class and has a Rat Terrier who has earned an All Around NATCH, actually Sammi has earned her All Around NATCH 2.  So, choose to run the class or not, but perhaps, accept that it is part of NADAC and is not new equipment ....


Karen
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Wild Terriers

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Re: Championships courses
« Reply #134 on: August 16, 2016, 11:23:43 AM »
Hey Kyle - NO on the pasties - that was a one and done and certainly before the days of YouTube and everyone with a cell phone in their pocket - tee hee hee - and, to this day, I am grateful that the videographer that year had already left for the night!!!

See you soon my friend!!!

Karen
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