Author Topic: crazy fast  (Read 1133 times)

Amy McGovern

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crazy fast
« on: June 05, 2017, 08:14:37 AM »
Have you seen the cartoon of the dog that says it just wants to run fast no matter what its mom tells it?  Well, we had that in real life this weekend and I'd love some advice on ensuring that we keep speed but maintain safety on the contacts.  She had a spill off both the A-frame and the dog walk.  Thankfully she is ok but she also doesn't seem to have learned any lessons (the one I want her to learn is to do them under control!!). 

We trained running contacts and I want to keep those but under control.  I hardly ever train contacts since I don't own them and I wondered if my focusing our training on hoopers and tunnelers is encouraging insanely fast speeds without encouraging control (since she mostly sees contacts at shows).  I have access to an A-frame (slatted, not NADAC) so I can train it and I may be able to get semi-regular access to a dog-walk (but not NADAC approved, which is why I've been avoiding it).  I was thinking to go back to our original training with a marker at the bottom of the contacts, so she slows down and gets the treat. We could insert it into our hoopers and tunnelers runs, as we do with the table, after we finish our VT run. 

Does this seem like a good plan to others with super fast dogs?  How else do you train SAFE performance?  She really scared me with her tumbles this weekend.  The A-frame tumble included a very hard face plant.  She managed to Q as she touched the contact somehow during her tumble.  Crazy girl!

-Amy and the schnauzers (yes, schnauzers can be crazy fast!)
Amy and the schnauzers

Maureen deHaan

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Re: crazy fast
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 08:24:53 AM »
remediation never hurts - and fwiw - if my dog ever executed what you describe in a trial - I would stop and correct that behavior and not care about the Q - a broken dog can't Q - but a well trained dog can
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KarissaKS

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Re: crazy fast
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 10:10:08 AM »
Running contacts -- a performance that has true criteria that the dog understands, not just one where you get lucky when the dog happens to stride through -- require a lot of practice/repetition, and pushing for speed on the ground should have no negative effect on your contacts because the dog is already trained to run in full extension. It's very common for those "wing it" dogs to have problems in trials because they run faster than they do in practice and it throws off their stride.

For those who do not have the time to put into training and maintaining a true running contact, I always recommend training a stop. I put stops on my dogs because I'm lazy and don't put in the work for a running contact, and I do have the equipment at home to do it. Stopped contacts do not require access to full pieces of equipment. I did all of my young dog's foundation training on contact boards (4' long planks) and that stop immediately transferred to the big equipment when I moved him to that. You should be able to keep one of those at home to practice on between training sessions.
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Edraith

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Re: crazy fast
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 02:13:18 PM »
If you are on the NADAC fb, I think amanda posted a really good few paragraphs about contact training maybe two months back. Might be worth a read, but what sticks in my brain was I really liked the idea of training a sit - initially and then letting dog decide stand or transition to running - at the bottom to teach that weight shift back and collection/control before leaving the contact. Perhaps a method worth looking into? I started with a standing 2o2o behavior but my dog wants to go fast and making her stop on course makes us lose both flow and focus so I let her run it now. I dont get chance to train it much. But I did start with 2o2o so she learned collection and running all the way down and not flying leaping off. I only have had one fly-off where she came over the top of the A-frame too fast and decided to go straight to ground but it was also my fault (lots of things happened with that run).

If the spill is off to the side...that's something different. I dont know any ideas for that, we do a lot of body awareness and conditioning even way before ever trying agility so it isn't something I've dealt with at all.

Like Karissa said, if doing stopped contacts, you dont need full equipment. Heck, a basic board will do. If you want a running, only train it on spec equipment because it is basically putting into muscle memory the exact striding required.
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TheQuestKnight

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Re: crazy fast
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 03:59:41 AM »
Hi Amy!

I'm more than prepared to get FLAMED for my comments; but here goes, anyway!  Up to the point where my and my wife's physical issues forced us to stop running agility.................NO NADAC within 5-6 hours also contributed to that painful decision..............we partnered with semi-suicidal Border Collies.  YES, we taught them WELL; and we had regulation equipment at home to help them re-affirm all that they had learned................but they were and are, above all, Border Collies; and their primary goal in life, along with trying to please us, was ensuring that they also pleased themselves!!!!!!!!!!!
distances......................and they LOVED doing it! <VBG>  OH!  They were "spot on" in practice; but in front of an audience that would "Ooooh", "Aaahh" and "Laugh", they were the consumate slap-stick entertainers!  While their
Our late Flurry and Kali were "champions" at catapulting themselves from the teeter high into the air and over great antics often appeared dangerous, they NEVER sustained any injury when they initiated the behavior!!!!!!!!!!!!!  The ONLY time our dogs................and it was only Flurry..................sustained an injury was on a slatted A-frame in the rain when he slipped because the A-frame had been painted with semi-gloss paint!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That said, my.............and our advice....................is to TEACH your dogs; but do NOT train them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Teaching your dogs encourages them to THINK for themselves rather than to simply mechanically do whatever they have been BRAINWASHED to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!  THINKING dogs will respond to conditions on the course that we humans are woefully unaware of; and make choices to do technically "wrong" things to stay safe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  By the same token, they will also CHOOSE to take a run or two or twelve to satisfy a NEED that they have to simply be themselves, enjoy life......................and like all of us, do something pleasurably stupid from time-to-time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Our advice......................RELAX.....................TEACH your "children" well; but also permit them to be themselves and express themselves THEIR WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Life, especially theirs, is far too short to do otherwise!

Just our humble opinion, for whatever it may be worth!

Hugs & wags,

The Current Inhabitants Of Castle Camelot: Al, Barb, Pellinore, Caitlyn (named well before the other, more infamous, person of the same name) and Lily The Pink............Ceranko, retired and living life in Ohio!!!!!!!!!!!!!   
Castle Camelot: Al, Barb, Dred, Gael & Pellinore . . . and from The Bridge Grill & Pub,  Kali, Flurry, Promise, Chico, Romulus, Trix and Tony.

Re: crazy fast
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2017, 09:20:06 PM »
Hi Amy!

I'm more than prepared to get FLAMED for my comments; but here goes, anyway!  Up to the point where my and my wife's physical issues forced us to stop running agility.................NO NADAC within 5-6 hours also contributed to that painful decision..............we partnered with semi-suicidal Border Collies.  YES, we taught them WELL; and we had regulation equipment at home to help them re-affirm all that they had learned................but they were and are, above all, Border Collies; and their primary goal in life, along with trying to please us, was ensuring that they also pleased themselves!!!!!!!!!!!
distances......................and they LOVED doing it! <VBG>  OH!  They were "spot on" in practice; but in front of an audience that would "Ooooh", "Aaahh" and "Laugh", they were the consumate slap-stick entertainers!  While their
Our late Flurry and Kali were "champions" at catapulting themselves from the teeter high into the air and over great antics often appeared dangerous, they NEVER sustained any injury when they initiated the behavior!!!!!!!!!!!!!  The ONLY time our dogs................and it was only Flurry..................sustained an injury was on a slatted A-frame in the rain when he slipped because the A-frame had been painted with semi-gloss paint!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That said, my.............and our advice....................is to TEACH your dogs; but do NOT train them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Teaching your dogs encourages them to THINK for themselves rather than to simply mechanically do whatever they have been BRAINWASHED to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!  THINKING dogs will respond to conditions on the course that we humans are woefully unaware of; and make choices to do technically "wrong" things to stay safe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  By the same token, they will also CHOOSE to take a run or two or twelve to satisfy a NEED that they have to simply be themselves, enjoy life......................and like all of us, do something pleasurably stupid from time-to-time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Our advice......................RELAX.....................TEACH your "children" well; but also permit them to be themselves and express themselves THEIR WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Life, especially theirs, is far too short to do otherwise!

Just our humble opinion, for whatever it may be worth!

Hugs & wags,

The Current Inhabitants Of Castle Camelot: Al, Barb, Pellinore, Caitlyn (named well before the other, more infamous, person of the same name) and Lily The Pink............Ceranko, retired and living life in Ohio!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have to ask - - - is Caitlyn male or female?

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Sheila & the Shelties

TheQuestKnight

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Re: crazy fast
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2017, 01:10:17 PM »
Hi Sheila!

Caitlyn, better known as Katie, is ALL GIRL!!!  After DNA testing, we know that she is mostly long-haired miniature dachshund mixed with chow-chow, Siberian husky, German shepherd and Rottweiler......................all in a compact package of 27 pounds with a chow undercoat, who "sings" like a northern breed and with all of the guarding instincts of her Germanic genes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Al
Castle Camelot: Al, Barb, Dred, Gael & Pellinore . . . and from The Bridge Grill & Pub,  Kali, Flurry, Promise, Chico, Romulus, Trix and Tony.

bhodges865

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Re: crazy fast
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2017, 05:59:22 AM »
If you have access to train on contacts, DO IT, no matter the surface.  The only contact I have to train on are AKC but it's the principle not the surface that you need to worry about.  Neither of my dogs had an issue with going from one surface to the other (we ran 5 different organizations the 1st year).  And I have a running contact "silver bullet".
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BeckyAH

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Re: crazy fast
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2017, 03:59:15 AM »
So, I had this with my BC briefly and to summarize the fumbling around and worry for me it was NOT an issue with not knowing the contact behavior inside and out, but of being unable to give it to me when highly aroused (and in my particular case, stressed - but stressing high, high, and higher).   

To make a very long story short, yes, yes, train the contacts if you have access to them and definitely proof them to make sure the dog really, really gets it.  If you have access to trial like settings especially train there - usually for me by doing an obstacle or two before the contact and then the contact, reward and leave.

But mostly, get the stress and arousal levels down.  No, don't slow the dog down, that's not the same thing, but when your dog is out of its head, anyway, you're not going to get the Q and you may get a hurt dog.  Develop a routine to get you to the startline and a particular way of removing the leash and behavior at the startline that indicates what you're doing and then - do not release the dog until the dog can indicate to you that they are in their head and thinking and focusing on YOU instead of the course.  Obviously you cannot do this in a trial (or at least can't start this in a trial)  because you will hang everyone up.   When I did this with my dog at first I literally stood there waiting for something like 3 or 4 minutes until she gave up fixated staring at the first line of obstacles and looked at me.  I went much faster after that, and the issues with blowing the contacts evaporated entirely, without ANY work on the actual contact behavior - and no, a thinking, listening dog is not a slower dog.  It's just a dog less likely to bring down bars, go off taking lines of obstacles without you, take extra obstacles, or blow contacts or hurt themselves.

But basically 'getting onto the course is contingent upon you having a brain in your head and showing me you are using it).

And if she loses it on the course (rare, now, not so rare before this) I stop moving and wait for her to come back (or put her back on the contact if she blew that), give her a pet and some praise (yes, eliminating myself) and down/stay or heel her back to her leash and we leave.  Where she still gets her treat and some QUIET time away from the action to relax, and have a massage-y petting session.

"Higher" is not always better.

And again - she is not SLOWER for this, just more likely to Q and less likely to break her neck.


Amy McGovern

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Re: crazy fast
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2017, 10:43:09 AM »
Becky,

Thanks for the great post.  I think a lot of it is true for my girl too.  We have been cross-training in rally and she's finally starting to get her self-control and outgrow some of her baby brains.  At this last NADAC show (2 weeks ago), she had 10/12 great start line stays and the other 2 were ok (not perfect but ok).  That is a HUGE victory.  And she started each run without mouthing off at me, so she was focused!  She still broke the speed of light as she managed a > 100 DRI run!  Yet she was in more control and paying more attention.  She still mouths off during the runs but mostly if I get behind or make a mistake in my handling.  That is when she is most mouthy.  We did rally practice before *every* run this show and it really seemed to help!  We practiced heeling and staying and coming to the right place and it put her brain in gear of working instead of barking at me.  Then she was willing to go to the line and STAY and shut her mouth.  All good progress :) And she is now has her Rally Advanced title too, where we had to learn to stop barking and focus on mom or else we NQ... It's all good for her!

-Amy and the schnauzer pack
Amy and the schnauzers