Author Topic: Tunnel Bagging  (Read 1174 times)

knittingdog

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Tunnel Bagging
« on: June 13, 2017, 04:53:41 AM »

So what are NADAC's current recommendations on placement of tunnel bags?  Just on the ends?  Throughout the tunnel to hold the tunnel's shape in place?  Bags over straps?

Surge is moving tunnels around and I'm looking at options to keep them in place better.

Thanks!
Robin & Surge

Sarah Fix

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2017, 05:14:49 AM »
The consensus is to just put bags on the ends.  This lets the tunnel flex when the dog hits it rather than having the dog run into a hard tunnel bag and possibly injure a shoulder.  Make sure your tunnel is totally stretched out so that there's no slack in it.  Check that the bags are tucked in on each side.  Also make sure the straps don't fall into the "grooves" or are so tight that they distort the shape of the tunnel.  If you set one tunnel bag on your feet, fasten the strap then move your feet - that should provide the right amount of tension.  Some dogs are major tunnel movers but some learn to run the inside and never move them.  The surface makes a difference on whether the bags actually move or not.  The newer lower riding bags have a surface on the bottom that helps them stay in place but they are pricey.
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2017, 10:28:34 AM »

So what are NADAC's current recommendations on placement of tunnel bags?  Just on the ends?  Throughout the tunnel to hold the tunnel's shape in place?  Bags over straps?

Surge is moving tunnels around and I'm looking at options to keep them in place better.

Thanks!
Robin & Surge

If he is hitting them hard enough to move, don't you "want" them to move rather than have them remain in place and all of the concussion is put on his body instead of displacing to the tunnel?

Sharon
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knittingdog

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2017, 05:58:52 AM »

If the ends are moving out of place, I worry he could get hurt the second time through since the tunnel is now misshapen.  I've even had where the tunnel slips through the upper portion of the bag so that the end of the tunnel is "inside" it.

I honestly don't know what the answer is on this one.  I just want him to stay safe and me not have to constantly readjust tunnels! 

Maybe I should go back to using the straps out doors.  I can't use straps with some of the tunnels I have (they cause the ribs to separate - bad tunnels), but they did hold the ends pretty securely.  Currently, the tunnels are moving around with the bags on the ends and they are pretty heavy bags  (the new Clean Run ones completely filled).  Maybe I need to just double bag the ends - hopefully without messing up my back!

NADAC has the fastest dogs of all venues running at top speed routinely, so I figure you guys have the best answer.

Robin & Surge



Chris Nelson

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2017, 11:06:43 AM »
My suggestion would be to re-train the tunnel behavior.   Get the dog to run across the bottom of the tunnel instead of banking against the sides.

The consistently fastest dogs in the country run this way, and we don't have to readjust bags after they run.  So it's not a deficit to their speed.

Now I don't have any facts to support this next part (yet), but I would actually say running across the bottom of the tunnel is faster than banking against the sides for almost all dogs.   But I won't get into that until I have some high speed video to back up my theory :)

knittingdog

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2017, 11:47:44 AM »

Interesting Chris.  What is the thinking there?  My instincts tell me that banking will make them faster since they can push through the turn, but that could be wrong.  I'm not looking for an argument, but to understand and think about it.

Robin & Surge

Chris Nelson

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2017, 12:16:05 PM »
My view comes from watching a lot of dogs run over a lot of years.

I think a medium speed dog could actually be faster banking.
But not a fast dog.    When they are going that fast and they hit the wall it almost causes their bodies to collapse in order to absorb some of that impact.   So it looks like they are going fast because the tunnel is moving a bunch and it sounds like a freight train hitting a wall. 

But they have to recover from that impact.  I personally think the recovery actually takes up more time than had they just ran flat and never had to slow down.

I love judging and hearing quiet tunnels!   Especially when I know the dogs I am watching are the fastest in the country. 
It's very rare that I see a dog who moves a tunnel 3 feet who is also one of the fastest.  Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's the exception to the rule.

And then there is the point Sharon made which I think is more important than the speed aspect, and that is the longevity of the dog.   It's very hard on them when they hit the tunnels that hard.

knittingdog

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 12:37:21 PM »

Interesting!  You are right in that a lot of energy is being expended to moving the tunnel around.  I just watched a video of Sharon and Busi and the tunnels don't move much at all.

How would you teach that?  I'm thinking start with a straight tunnel with no bags and then slowly start to curve it, but i could also see where this could be dangerous for a dog that is used to banking at high speeds if it went out from under them.

You have me kind of excited!  Lol!

Chris Nelson

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 01:17:15 PM »
I'll leave that answer to the real trainers!

Edraith

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 05:26:00 PM »
If you bank, the forces push outward rather than forward. I bet it is as chris suspects. I see it when training folk in single rope technique. They kick out too much making them bounce latteraly rather than climbing up (vertical). So maybe not a matter of fast or slow, as some people can climb fast deapite terrible technique, but it is certainly not energy efficient and hence they could be even faster, if they exerted force in the proper direction. Cant wait to see highspeed footage! Very interesting hypothesis and I think it has good base for testing!
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Becky Woodruff

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 07:48:10 PM »
Robin,
I start my young dogs in tunnels with no bags.  Maybe with your already trained/trialing dog you could start with a shorter 10' straight tunnel and not give him a massive run into it until he gets the feel of it with no bags.  Then move to a longer straight tunnel and gradually start changing the curve.

I recall Sharon did some great remedial work on a dog that had no regard for his body when it came to tunnels and slammed them hard.  In addition to the need to reset tunnels, there was always the possibility of the dog injuring himself and I believe he did experience more than a handful of "unsafe performances" on the tunnel.    Taking the bags off to train helped to turn him around.

Becky
Becky Woodruff

knittingdog

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2017, 08:16:38 PM »

Thanks for the info Becky!

Surge is pretty controlled with his body the majority of the time for his age - which is good!  (I've even had people mention to me that he was controlled.)  And most of the time tunnels don't move much, but I do see occasions where it does consistently - such as a curved tunnel and he is entering from a turn.

I like your suggestions.  I'm going to work with him some on straight ones without the bags and take it from there.   He is thinking more as he is getting older and that will probably help.

Thanks!
Robin & Surge



Sharon Nelson

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2017, 09:15:07 AM »

Interesting!  You are right in that a lot of energy is being expended to moving the tunnel around.  I just watched a video of Sharon and Busi and the tunnels don't move much at all.

How would you teach that?  I'm thinking start with a straight tunnel with no bags and then slowly start to curve it, but i could also see where this could be dangerous for a dog that is used to banking at high speeds if it went out from under them.

You have me kind of excited!  Lol!

If my young dogs try to bank the tunnels I take the tunnel bags off in training so that the tunnel will roll if they bank it.  They learn very fast to stay on the bottom of the tunnel.  I start with a soft curve at first so it is minimal and keep working until the tunnel can be completely u-shaped and they run on the bottom.  No injuries and they stay sound.  So many dogs get hurt in tunnels it is sad.

Sharon
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knittingdog

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2017, 11:01:25 AM »

Thanks Sharon!  Great advice!  Will start like that with the next one for sure.



James Bell

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Re: Tunnel Bagging
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2017, 12:49:53 PM »
On Chris' theory...think of it this way...look at the shape of the tunnel. Stiff wires interspersed with gaps of fabric.

On the ground facing side, the variation in height of wire rib vs fabric on the ground is minimal. It's a fairly steady surface on which to run.

Now, on the sides without the ground limiting play, you get stiff wires with valleys of fabric in between, that can collapse akin to a varmint trap around a paw that goes it.

So, which do you think is faster? A compacted road with few scattered obstructions, or a pothole strewn road where the potholes try to eat you?

Not to say it *can't* be fast, say if your dog has mastered his stride to the point where he only walks on the wires, or depends on the centrifugal​ extension of the tunnel to provide the service surface.

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James Bell