Author Topic: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes  (Read 7589 times)

Chris Nelson

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2018, 06:06:19 PM »
It just happens that Cocoa is really good with distance with lots of Chances points, but we didn't earn our NATCH until last summer because he often did not make time in jumpers courses.  The new times did help us, but I understand that they might fluctuate each year.   I am not concerned about Cocoa at this point, but thinking about other dog's I know who have the same problem.  Might there be a set of achievement awards for them? 

Just something to think about?

Isabel

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It’s still high on our list.

The issue we’ve been running into is creating an award that doesn’t detract from the natch, but also doesn’t feel like an award of lesser value.

We’ve pulled a few focus groups together and ran different ideas past them,  and it never goes over terribly well


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BeckyAH

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2018, 06:40:41 PM »
It just happens that Cocoa is really good with distance with lots of Chances points, but we didn't earn our NATCH until last summer because he often did not make time in jumpers courses.  The new times did help us, but I understand that they might fluctuate each year.   I am not concerned about Cocoa at this point, but thinking about other dog's I know who have the same problem.  Might there be a set of achievement awards for them? 

Just something to think about?

Isabel

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It’s still high on our list.

The issue we’ve been running into is creating an award that doesn’t detract from the natch, but also doesn’t feel like an award of lesser value.

We’ve pulled a few focus groups together and ran different ideas past them,  and it never goes over terribly well


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Chris, just a little input here:

I don't think there's anything wrong with 'lesser value'.  As I said, I'm one of those teams who struggles with distance.  I'm so proud of my Open Chances title it's a wee bit disgusting because we had to work hard for it.  I don't think I will ever not see the NATCh as cream of the crop, the ultimate award in NADAC. 

So, my problem isn't wanting something as 'valuable' as the NATCH, it's more that psychologically having *something* there - some kind of cumulative award - that I could earn beyond my Open Versatility was a big, huge, appealing deal for me.  Extended titles in classes, I could do, and will do, but without Elite Chances (or Jumpers, or Regular, to be fair), there's really nothing out there to work toward or earn.   That can make things feel like a bit of a slog (to me anyway) and be a little disheartening.  It can BE lesser value, as long as there's something there.

Does that make sense or am I being a weirdo here?

Chris Nelson

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2018, 07:20:11 PM »
I actually agree completely with the mind set you have.

So no worries there.
I might have to just pony up and make the changes I want and ride out the negative stuff until it passes :)


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Linda W. Anderson

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2018, 07:29:30 PM »
Question on the awards (I forgot the names) where you can do extra open or novice chances because you struggle with elite chances. Can you attempt to get all 3?  A regular NATCH, the award with the extra open chances and the award with the extra novice chances?
Thanks
Jill

Yes.

The goal is to give some recognition for the skills, but also a place to advance.

So someone could get a Silver Achievement Cup (Novice Chances), and then progress onto a Gold Achievement Cup (Open Chances) and a NATCH (Elite Chances).
So are these awards retroactive or just from Jan. 2019 forward?
Linda
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Chris Nelson

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2018, 09:23:11 PM »
Question on the awards (I forgot the names) where you can do extra open or novice chances because you struggle with elite chances. Can you attempt to get all 3?  A regular NATCH, the award with the extra open chances and the award with the extra novice chances?
Thanks
Jill

Yes.

The goal is to give some recognition for the skills, but also a place to advance.

So someone could get a Silver Achievement Cup (Novice Chances), and then progress onto a Gold Achievement Cup (Open Chances) and a NATCH (Elite Chances).
So are these awards retroactive or just from Jan. 2019 forward?
Linda
They will be retroactive.

I doubt many will be given out for the past though since not many people stick around in novice or open past the superiors


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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2018, 07:41:46 AM »
I LOVE the achievement award!  I think it is awesome for those people who just can't get their dog to do an elite chances Q.  I struggle with one of my dogs at elite chances.  We only need 2 more for his NATCH, but it has been FOREVER!  I would consider dropping him down to earn the others rather than still struggle with elite chances and have us both frustrated after I earn those final 2.  (I just can't see being soooo close and not finishing it! LOL!)  I think it is also awesome to try to draw others into NADAC and keep those that struggle with chances with us.
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso

Jeannie Biggers

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2018, 07:49:52 AM »
Agreed!  We are one of those teams too. I watched the video and cheered out loud for that part. We are totally going for the novice level one first. Once we get that, I'll maybe feel like she finally can try open chances! 

This is why this is such a cool idea!!!  Boost confidence by letting people achieve their own goals then make new ones!  Just awesome :)
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mephalon

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2018, 08:31:52 AM »

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[/quote]
It’s still high on our list.

The issue we’ve been running into is creating an award that doesn’t detract from the natch, but also doesn’t feel like an award of lesser value.

We’ve pulled a few focus groups together and ran different ideas past them,  and it never goes over terribly well


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[/quote]

Question-  how many from the focus group are those handlers that struggle with things like distance challenges (which it sounds like you addressed) and time (which is still in the works).   Not criticizing the focus group as I am sure they were carefully chosen but if a team does not have the struggle (that has not been able to be overcome) then they (obviously not all) might not see any value in the alternative awards.     

I want something to work towards.   It's my choice to work towards it and I don't really care if others think it is lesser-  it's my and  my dog's achievement but at least the achievement exists.  Right now I don't have that option.    Others who think the alternative award is "less" can continue on the NATCH path.   Obviously an alternative achievement would not be as prestigious as a NATCH but I think the people who would be going for the alternative achievement wouldn't care- but  maybe I am unique in that thought process.   Why would those going for a NATCH care if there were other awards?  Why is more than one path to an award/achievement so abhorrent to some people?  An alternative achievement in no way diminishes their NATCHs  it just gives others something to work towards- rather than go to other venues that have more options.   

M
Mary P.

Chris Nelson

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2018, 08:41:38 AM »
That has been my line of thinking Mary.

I mentioned earlier that we might just have to do what we feel is right and ride out the storm from the folks who don’t agree.

I like having alternate paths for people to take as not everyone has the same goals.   Doesn’t mean we don’t want them competing with us :)


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BeckyAH

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2018, 09:28:48 AM »

I want something to work towards.   It's my choice to work towards it and I don't really care if others think it is lesser-  it's my and  my dog's achievement but at least the achievement exists.  Right now I don't have that option.    Others who think the alternative award is "less" can continue on the NATCH path.   Obviously an alternative achievement would not be as prestigious as a NATCH but I think the people who would be going for the alternative achievement wouldn't care- but  maybe I am unique in that thought process.   Why would those going for a NATCH care if there were other awards?  Why is more than one path to an award/achievement so abhorrent to some people?  An alternative achievement in no way diminishes their NATCHs  it just gives others something to work towards- rather than go to other venues that have more options.   

M

This.

I mean I did finish my open chances title and I'm still wrestling some with elite, and don't want to stop.  I would like to at least get elite versatility. But that dog is heading toward veteran status and at this point there's... nothing else out there, as I mentioned.

And having NOTHING OUT THERE makes continuing to compete feel like a journey toward nothing.   That's really hard for me, and clearly you're not alone since you, I, and Chris are on the same page.   Just give me SOMETHING to serve as a benchmark on the journey.  The 1000 point award and extended titles are awesome, but they just don't... give me the same challenge as something that requires Qs in specific places and don't feel as much of a stop (or pause or visit) along the way.  More like milemarkers.

Jeannie Biggers

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2018, 11:47:58 AM »


Question-  how many from the focus group are those handlers that struggle with things like distance challenges (which it sounds like you addressed) and time (which is still in the works).   Not criticizing the focus group as I am sure they were carefully chosen but if a team does not have the struggle (that has not been able to be overcome) then they (obviously not all) might not see any value in the alternative awards.     

I want something to work towards.   It's my choice to work towards it and I don't really care if others think it is lesser-  it's my and  my dog's achievement but at least the achievement exists.  Right now I don't have that option.    Others who think the alternative award is "less" can continue on the NATCH path.   Obviously an alternative achievement would not be as prestigious as a NATCH but I think the people who would be going for the alternative achievement wouldn't care- but  maybe I am unique in that thought process.   Why would those going for a NATCH care if there were other awards?  Why is more than one path to an award/achievement so abhorrent to some people?  An alternative achievement in no way diminishes their NATCHs  it just gives others something to work towards- rather than go to other venues that have more options.   

M

M

If you look back over posts about Chances and suggested changes that could be made, you will find a post of mine that talked about these changes that Chris is putting into place.  And I think maybe that you will be surprised that I am a bonus handler and run faster dogs.  So why would I care about people that have distance or time issues???  I do care, I like to see people succeed and have goals and they don't have to be the same goals as mine.  You achieving a different goal does not make it any less an achievement then me achieving my goals!  And I think the NADAC office feels the same way or they wouldn't be addressing this stuff :)

I am super excited for those that either don't have the skills or just flat would rather be with their dogs to now have goals.  I think that says a lot about NADAC and the direction they are going.  Not everyone or every dog wants to work away from each other  ;D  Cheers to Chris for finding a way for everyone to have achievable goals... no matter what they are!!

Jeannie
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mephalon

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2018, 01:00:01 PM »
I did qualify my response by saying "obviously not all" but Chris'post implies that there are some in the focus groups who objected- so that was the thought process behind my post. 

It was similar when the SCT was increased- some people were upset and felt like it diluted their Qs.  I don't understand that because if you were making time under the old SCT you still made time-  the new SCT allowed others to succeed.   I just I don't get how someone else succeeding has any effect on other teams success (except at Champs obv). 

Similarly I don't understand how having an alternate a achievement would diminish a NATCH - I mean no one is pretending these other achievements would be remotely NATCH-like.  Now it looks like there will be something for the distance challenged dogs- which I think is great news.       

I really appreciate all Chris and the NADAC team are doing.  I think they are doing a great job and I am also excited about the direction NADAC is going-  which is why I haven't given up on my favorite venue yet.   I am just keeping my fingers crossed for the time challenged dogs :-).   
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 01:09:55 PM by mephalon »
Mary P.

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2018, 03:44:35 PM »
Well done.  Great practical changes to help encourage all levels of NADAC.   

dogrsqr

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2018, 04:33:59 PM »
For trials that only offer one round of Chances per day: could a person be allowed to enter every level of Chances, in order to work toward the new achievement cups, provided the dog is not entered in any other classes with jumps that day?
I think the software folks might very well put a hit out on me if we did that!

In all seriousness though,  while I can see the argument that it’s no different then entering 3 jumping classes,  I don’t feel comfortable opening that bag of worms.   And it would cause a lot of confusion for the trial secretary and gate people.

I don't understand how it is a "bag of worms" from a point of view other than programming. If the programming is set up correctly, no day-of-show workers should have a problem during the trial. Everything would print correctly. Gate stewards shouldn't be confused at all. Perhaps the trial secretary would have to count on entry forms how many jumping classes a person has entered, to make sure they are not breaking the rules? Chances is the shortest length course out of all the jumping classes. It wouldn't be overextending a dog more than double runs of jumpers or regular. What other questionable angle is there? The training for open or novice due to running the same course in an upper level? That isn't much different from double runs either.

I am going to a trial next weekend. I entered only the one round of chances each day in elite. The trial already has admittedly low numbers. They would probably have appreciated it if I entered more classes, but I like having goals too. That's the only purpose of awards. Dogs don't care about those.
[/quote

Don't you think this would give an unfair advantage for someone to get to practice the course 3 times?   

Gina

Cindy

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Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2018, 08:47:24 PM »
After listening to this I have a question and a suggestion. 

1)  When talking about the quarterly updates by email, you said you would send them to "current competitors".  How are you defining that?  What do people who are not currently trialing but want to keep up with the information covered in those need to do to make sure we're on the list?

2)  In reference to the Achievement Awards - why not make it either Jumpers or Chances for the "regular" one and allow handlers to choose which class to leave out of the criteria for the "versatility" one?  Most teams have "that class" that lags behind the others and for some becomes just too frustrating to continue.  Why single out Chances? 

As for the comments about the value of the different awards, that is for each person to decide for themselves.  I have had 3 agility dogs.  My first one got a NATCH, the second one a NATCH-2 and V-NATCH, my third one got a Novice All Around Award.  While they all mean a lot to me, the one that required the most blood, sweat and tears was the Novice All Around.  For that particular dog, that was the equivalent of a NATCH in my mind.  People who truly watched our journey get that.  And even if they didn't, I get it.  It wasn't the goal I started out with for her, but it required more effort on her part than the NATCHes my other dogs achieved.  And bottom line, I'd give up all the awards and medals we earned for just one more day with any of my dogs. 
Cindy and the Beagles