Author Topic: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes  (Read 7662 times)

Lin Battaglia

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 217
    • mdt/Agility Ability LLC
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2018, 08:11:40 AM »
I agree Cathie Cage and have always thought posts should be signed with the real name of the poster.

dogrsqr

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 377
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2018, 08:28:32 AM »

Sent from my KFASWI using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.
Itís still high on our list.

The issue weíve been running into is creating an award that doesnít detract from the natch, but also doesnít feel like an award of lesser value.

Weíve pulled a few focus groups together and ran different ideas past them,  and it never goes over terribly well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]

Question-  how many from the focus group are those handlers that struggle with things like distance challenges (which it sounds like you addressed) and time (which is still in the works).   Not criticizing the focus group as I am sure they were carefully chosen but if a team does not have the struggle (that has not been able to be overcome) then they (obviously not all) might not see any value in the alternative awards.     

I want something to work towards.   It's my choice to work towards it and I don't really care if others think it is lesser-  it's my and  my dog's achievement but at least the achievement exists.  Right now I don't have that option.    Others who think the alternative award is "less" can continue on the NATCH path.   Obviously an alternative achievement would not be as prestigious as a NATCH but I think the people who would be going for the alternative achievement wouldn't care- but  maybe I am unique in that thought process.   Why would those going for a NATCH care if there were other awards?  Why is more than one path to an award/achievement so abhorrent to some people?  An alternative achievement in no way diminishes their NATCHs  it just gives others something to work towards- rather than go to other venues that have more options.   

M
[/quote]

Mary,

Most of us have problems with a class.  I think where the bad feelings come in is that those of us who have problems with a class other than Chances might feel like we aren't getting anything to work towards.  I have a problem with regular but have managed to get a few NATCH' so it doesn't bother me personally.  Someone I know who has great team work, but a dog who stresses about weaving at trials asked (maybe sarcastically) what about me? Can I get an award with Novice regular legs since I have all the other NATCH requirements?

There are people out there that struggle with things other than time and distance.  They also might like to feel that they have some goals to work towards.

Gina

Chris Nelson

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2018, 08:31:18 AM »
I donít think anyone is disagreeing that other people struggle in different ways.
But if youíre struggling with regular you can go to any trainer in the country and learn the skills you need to be successful.

If youíre struggling in chances,  you need a nadac specific trainer because even the hardest distance test in any other venue is only really comparable to a novice, maybe open chances course.

And if you donít have access to a nadac trainer youíre just kind of out of luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mephalon

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 212
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2018, 08:55:23 AM »

Mary,

Most of us have problems with a class.  I think where the bad feelings come in is that those of us who have problems with a class other than Chances might feel like we aren't getting anything to work towards.  I have a problem with regular but have managed to get a few NATCH' so it doesn't bother me personally.  Someone I know who has great team work, but a dog who stresses about weaving at trials asked (maybe sarcastically) what about me? Can I get an award with Novice regular legs since I have all the other NATCH requirements?

There are people out there that struggle with things other than time and distance.  They also might like to feel that they have some goals to work towards.

Gina
[/quote]

I agree Gina and completely understand-I guess the only difference would be the distance required and YPS requirements that are unique to NADAC.   I can get a Championship in other venues without distance and at the YPS my main competing dog currently runs-  can't without weaves in any venue.

I understand different venues and I am not advocating for all to be the same but this is an example.  My mostly retired girl (who before she became semi-retired earned her Superior Elite Jumpers, TNE-400, Outstanding Elite Touch N Go titles and if Chances didn't sometimes have weaves would have her Elite Chances titles too) hates the weaves and I gave up on getting her a NATCH (or any other venue's championship) years ago . What I did do (because the option existed in my other primary venue) is change my award goals for her.    CPE has point level awards that you get a plaque for.   So I began entering her in CPE lower levels to earn her point level titles in Level 1 and Level 2 where weaves are not required (because you don't have to do Standard/Regular to earn points) - she has her 1000 and 2000 point level plaques in two different categories (so 4 total plaques).  Yes I know NADAC has lifetime points and I think they are great- but they are not separate awards to work towards- they just come as you progress.   In CPE I made a conscious choice to stay in level 1 and get her 1000 points, then level 2 to get her 2000 points-  then did the same in a different height class. 

In NADAC, as it stands today, there is no such option.   I believe that is what Chris is trying to address.   

Since I believe one of the goals is to maintain/increase NADAC participation- I think having those alternative type of awards will keep people in the venue-  maybe only a few but with trials looking for entries those few can make a difference.   

Mary
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 09:05:37 AM by mephalon »
Mary P.

BeckyAH

  • *****
  • Posts: 174
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2018, 10:27:43 AM »
I don’t think anyone is disagreeing that other people struggle in different ways.
But if you’re struggling with regular you can go to any trainer in the country and learn the skills you need to be successful.

If you’re struggling in chances,  you need a nadac specific trainer because even the hardest distance test in any other venue is only really comparable to a novice, maybe open chances course.

And if you don’t have access to a nadac trainer you’re just kind of out of luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This.  The speed requirements are being looked at closely, and regular is just... low speed requirement and very, very basic agility - regardless of venue.  Yes, it has barrels and hoops, but learning those are super easy for most dogs and, ime, a part of foundation training for most agility dogs (maybe not hoops and barrels specifically but going away from someone to circle a cone or bucket and through uprights without a jump? Yes.).   The rest of it is *very basic agility* required EVERYWHERE.   You're not getting upper level awards in ANY venue without being able to do contacts, jumps, and weaves in a trial setting and at a moderate pace.

The distance thing?  Not so much.  Classes that require some, but nothing like elite level chances courses.

If the goal is to keep people from going to other venues to find success they can't find in NADAC, looking at the YPS requirements (in classes that have them, ie: Jumpers, mostly for requirements for upper level awards), and the distance requirements/alternatives is pretty much where it's going to be.

If you can't weave or do contacts  in a trial you *can* bail and go to AKC or USDAA or CPE, but you're not going to be accumulating upper level awards there either.   THAT is not a unique to NADAC feature, it's just agility.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 10:32:56 AM by BeckyAH »

dogrsqr

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 377
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2018, 12:23:14 PM »
Some of us who have good distance have just as hard a time getting our dogs to come into us (which is required depending on the course) as those who have a hard time getting distance.  I believe a NADAC style trainer is required for that training as well because the other venues don't have the same speed and flow in their courses and those trainers don't use any distance.  There is only one trainer who has been able to help me with this and she lives half way across the country.  I seek out her seminars.

You may or may not agree, understand, or think other's POV is valid, but someone asked why people didn't particularly like this change.  I don't think it's because they don't understand the difficulty of training distance.  I very much understand the difficulty of training distance.  My first dog got her first NATCH at age 13 because we had a hard time with distance. 

BTW you can find online classes in distance training by several qualified individuals. 

Gina




BeckyAH

  • *****
  • Posts: 174
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2018, 12:27:25 PM »
I do understand and I do believe it's valid to struggle with.  I even think being upset at thinking other people are getting something 'special' is upsetting and tends to make people snarky and bitter.

But ANY venue they go to is going to require they be able to get the dog in closer for success and ANY trainer can, in fact, handle that.   Even with a dog who is used to training distance.  Really.

It's a general agility training challenge.  It's not NADAC specific.  At all.

giddyup

  • *****
  • Posts: 69
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2018, 12:41:36 PM »
Hi, I've got a couple more questions about the Gold/Silver Achievement Award/cup

1) if you try to get a regular NATCH  and a Gold Achieve Award & Cup and also the Silver Achievement Award/Cup, do you need to get the 230 elite Regular points and 130 Elite Jumpers points only once for all 3  titles? Or do you have to get those points again for the second and again for the 3rd title?  (Hope I worded that question right!)

2) for Gold Achieve, with the 160 points in Open Chances, is that a TOTAL of 160 or the basic title (30 points) + 160 for a total of 190?  And same question for the Silver titles?

And thanks for this change!  I love the idea of working towards more goals. ( but I'm not giving up on trying for a NATCH yet!) 😄

Jill

Chris Nelson

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2018, 12:47:58 PM »
Hi, I've got a couple more questions about the Gold/Silver Achievement Award/cup

1) if you try to get a regular NATCH  and a Gold Achieve Award & Cup and also the Silver Achievement Award/Cup, do you need to get the 230 elite Regular points and 130 Elite Jumpers points only once for all 3  titles? Or do you have to get those points again for the second and again for the 3rd title?  (Hope I worded that question right!)

2) for Gold Achieve, with the 160 points in Open Chances, is that a TOTAL of 160 or the basic title (30 points) + 160 for a total of 190?  And same question for the Silver titles?

And thanks for this change!  I love the idea of working towards more goals. ( but I'm not giving up on trying for a NATCH yet!) 😄

Jill

1) You would only need to get the Regular and Jumpers points once.   As they would count towards the first instance of the award.   

2) That is a total of 160 :)

dogrsqr

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 377
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2018, 01:06:58 PM »
I do understand and I do believe it's valid to struggle with.  I even think being upset at thinking other people are getting something 'special' is upsetting and tends to make people snarky and bitter.

But ANY venue they go to is going to require they be able to get the dog in closer for success and ANY trainer can, in fact, handle that.   Even with a dog who is used to training distance.  Really.

It's a general agility training challenge.  It's not NADAC specific.  At all.

Ok this is the end of this conversation for me.  Not trying to be snarky, just trying to get people to understand another perspective and answer the question.

And REALLY no one here can help me with my issue.  And it IS NADAC specific that I need to transition from distance to close.  But we are likely to never agree on this point.

Peace out.

Gina

Pam Kaye

  • 2016 Online Seminar Group
  • *****
  • Posts: 444
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2018, 05:12:17 PM »
Just want to award Cindy the LOVE button award.
Pam Kaye
Cash, Cirrus and Flame
Sequim, WA

Foomin Z

  • *****
  • Posts: 156
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2018, 07:47:30 PM »
Don't you think this would give an unfair advantage for someone to get to practice the course 3 times?   

Gina

Who is it unfair to? A Q only matters to the one running. It's been said by several people in multiple places in the forum. Why does it matter how someone else does?

Other people seem pleased by the idea of the new achievement cups, but perhaps still dream of the NATCH. Why would it be wrong to try for both at the same time?

That would be only one extra run past trials who offer double-runs in chances. Also, the line in novice is so incredibly different from open and elite that it does not even compare. Want to limit it to only two tries? Fine, allow one elite chances run and one of another level.

With the new training in the ring rule, people could not even bother trying the first round of elite chances in a double-run format. They could train it, then run "for real" in the second round. It may be  unsportsmanlike, but not against the rules. Maybe there's even people doing this now in double-run format trials, and I just haven't seen it.

I am not really understanding why running even one round of elite chances followed by one round of open chances is so objectionable, considering the allowance by NADAC of double-run format as well as swap runs. Or is everyone who objects to the multi-level chances runs idea the same as those who object to double-run/swap formats?

Foomin Z

  • *****
  • Posts: 156
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2018, 07:58:37 PM »

If youíre struggling in chances,  you need a nadac specific trainer because even the hardest distance test in any other venue is only really comparable to a novice, maybe open chances course.
Ha ha! I felt this for real when I went to a recent USDAA trial, saw the gamble and thought, "That's it??" NADAC chances is good training for everywhere else! Only other venue that can compare is AAC. Some of their gambles are more difficult that NADAC elite chances, more in and out from the handler with more off-course opportunities.

But does NADAC offer multiple superior titles for each class? Like "superior elite jumpers 2" if someone gets ten more elite jumpers past the superior title? Or do titles per class stop at just superior? I was doing just JWW in AKC for one of my dogs so she wouldn't have to do contacts, and she got up to master JWW 6 or whatever it was called. Would that kind of thing help people feel like they are achieving goals?

Chris Nelson

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2018, 08:01:22 PM »

If youíre struggling in chances,  you need a nadac specific trainer because even the hardest distance test in any other venue is only really comparable to a novice, maybe open chances course.
Ha ha! I felt this for real when I went to a recent USDAA trial, saw the gamble and thought, "That's it??" NADAC chances is good training for everywhere else! Only other venue that can compare is AAC. Some of their gambles are more difficult that NADAC elite chances, more in and out from the handler with more off-course opportunities.

But does NADAC offer multiple superior titles for each class? Like "superior elite jumpers 2" if someone gets ten more elite jumpers past the superior title? Or do titles per class stop at just superior? I was doing just JWW in AKC for one of my dogs so she wouldn't have to do contacts, and she got up to master JWW 6 or whatever it was called. Would that kind of thing help people feel like they are achieving goals?
There are extended titles for each class, and at every level.

So once you reach 300 points in jumpers you would have a EJC-300,  400 points, EJC-400 and so on.

Regular is every 200 points.  So EAC-600 and so on


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Salli Dulco

  • *****
  • Posts: 53
Re: June Announcement for January 2019 Rule Changes
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2018, 10:32:17 PM »
Hi Chris,

Thanks for the updates!
Regarding the grandfathered in dogs who run in other venues, how does this impact their achieving the Elite All Around title?


Sallu Dulco
Salli Dulco