Author Topic: January 2019 Announcement Video  (Read 7354 times)

Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2019, 01:04:02 PM »
I respectfully disagree with allowing tugging in the ring whether it be the leash itself or a small toy attached to the leash.  In doing so, it would provide an unfair advantage to those competing teams who find tugging to be a reward (and don't mind their dog tugging on the leash) by allowing them to immediately reward a run while in the ring.  If allowing tugging, then in order to be fair then, competitors should also be able to give their dogs whatever reward they use at the end of a run whether it is treats, a ball, frisbee whatever while in the ring.  If the issue is that some dogs try to grab at their leash when leaving the ring, I think it could be up to the judge's discretion as to how to handle these situations.  I've seen dogs that do attempt to grab at the leash, but handlers who clearly discourage the behavior until out of the ring when they can provide an appropriate reward.  I feel like minimal excited grabbing at the leash when it is discouraged/not reciprocated by the handler to not be something to cause an elimination of the run.   


Why are we against rewarding our dogs?

Is verbal praise not a reward?
Physical petting?

There are different rewards, vocal, physical, toys and treats.

We want to allow as many rewards as possible within reason.

If there was a way to guarantee that treats always hit a dogs mouth and didnít get lost on the ground I would allow treats as well.


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I'd like to clarify, I'm absolutely not against rewarding your dog.  My dogs get lots of verbal praise, treats and toys.   My perspective is if you're going to allow 'object' rewards to be used inside the ring (ie. something in addition to verbal praise and petting), then any 'object' should be allowed to be used within reason.  Some people do not teach or want their dog to tug for variety of reasons and so it could be considered a disadvantage for them to have to wait until rewarding with some type of 'object' outside the ring.   (BTW, I have 'tuggers' and 'no tuggers' if you're wondering). This also has the possibility of slowing down trials if tugging is aggressive, very animated and occurs while competitors exit the ring.  I could foresee the handler following an 'animated tugger' (for lack of a better description) making sure that the previous competitor is WELL clear of the ring before starting even if the previous competitor is leashed and on their way out of the ring.    I just wanted to share a perspective that may not have been considered and thought this forum was the place to do so.  Btw, I am not losing any sleep over this and hope you're not feeling 'beat up', but thought I would share.  Best regards,

Chris Nelson

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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2019, 01:29:25 PM »
Thanks for the thoughts everybody!

I think at this point all we can really do is wait and see how it plays out.

Iím not opposed to allowing toys,  so long as they are attached to the leash so they canít be separated.   

I do appreciate all the feedback.   


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KarissaKS

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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2019, 06:24:13 PM »
Just going to share a little bit from the "other side" regarding safety. My young dog has a history of being reactive towards dogs when he is in a state of high arousal -- To date this has only involved barking. I have never allowed it to escalate beyond that. Ren has never been a tugger. He likes his toys and works for toys, but he does not tug at home. Imagine my surprise then, when I entered him in JWW at 15 months and he went after his leash like a maniac at the end of the run. He didn't want his toy or treats outside of the ring, he only wanted to tug on his leash. Shocked me to no end. He comes off the course in an INCREDIBLY high state of arousal (now 18 months). Believe me, I am elated that the only thing he wants to do at the end of the run is tug on his leash. All other dogs disappear for him. Dogs can come up right behind him when he's tugging and he doesn't bat an eye. And when we're done, he's CALMER and we can walk quietly away from the ring with no barking. He doesn't stare rudely at other dogs. He just walks calmly through the crowd (AKC trials around here are very crowded).

I am in no way stating that I consider his behavior at this point in time "perfect," but it is "perfectly acceptable" in the other organizations in which I compete (AKC/USDAA). I honestly wrote off NADAC for Ren because of this behavior and was very excited when Chris posted the video saying tugging would be allowed in June as a test period. With his desire to tug on his leash at the end of the run, I can say with 100% confidence that I have zero concerns about him ever leaving me at the end of the run due to the dog on the start line. When you enter the ring, don't you like to know that the dog running the course is not going to show interest in your dog? Having this type of dog go straight to his leash is far preferable for me.

The thing I wish most is that I could stop yelling at my dog to drop the leash at the end of the run. I'm thankful that NADAC started to not E dogs for picking it up, but I still run towards Jedi at the end of a run saying "Drop it! Drop it!"  As a carry-over he now rarely tries to tug his leash in other organizations (except for USDAA for some reason), but what it results in is him leaving the ring and trying to make a mad dash to his tug toy. Personally, I'd rather have a dog who will tug their leash and be happy with that until we get to the toy (if that's what they prefer).
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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2019, 11:41:22 PM »
Just going to share a little bit from the "other side" regarding safety. My young dog has a history of being reactive towards dogs when he is in a state of high arousal -- To date this has only involved barking. I have never allowed it to escalate beyond that. Ren has never been a tugger. He likes his toys and works for toys, but he does not tug at home. Imagine my surprise then, when I entered him in JWW at 15 months and he went after his leash like a maniac at the end of the run. He didn't want his toy or treats outside of the ring, he only wanted to tug on his leash. Shocked me to no end. He comes off the course in an INCREDIBLY high state of arousal (now 18 months). Believe me, I am elated that the only thing he wants to do at the end of the run is tug on his leash. All other dogs disappear for him. Dogs can come up right behind him when he's tugging and he doesn't bat an eye. And when we're done, he's CALMER and we can walk quietly away from the ring with no barking. He doesn't stare rudely at other dogs. He just walks calmly through the crowd (AKC trials around here are very crowded).

I am in no way stating that I consider his behavior at this point in time "perfect," but it is "perfectly acceptable" in the other organizations in which I compete (AKC/USDAA). I honestly wrote off NADAC for Ren because of this behavior and was very excited when Chris posted the video saying tugging would be allowed in June as a test period. With his desire to tug on his leash at the end of the run, I can say with 100% confidence that I have zero concerns about him ever leaving me at the end of the run due to the dog on the start line. When you enter the ring, don't you like to know that the dog running the course is not going to show interest in your dog? Having this type of dog go straight to his leash is far preferable for me.

The thing I wish most is that I could stop yelling at my dog to drop the leash at the end of the run. I'm thankful that NADAC started to not E dogs for picking it up, but I still run towards Jedi at the end of a run saying "Drop it! Drop it!"  As a carry-over he now rarely tries to tug his leash in other organizations (except for USDAA for some reason), but what it results in is him leaving the ring and trying to make a mad dash to his tug toy. Personally, I'd rather have a dog who will tug their leash and be happy with that until we get to the toy (if that's what they prefer).

I'd only like to comment if that tugging behavior calms our dog down that's great.  I think some other people are saying that behavior might affect adversely *their* dog at the start line.  I think Chris has made his decision and let's see how it works out before condemning it.
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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2019, 08:07:29 AM »
I think to remember too is the start and finish line are like, always opposite sides. So that is at minimum, 50 ft on super narrow courses, more like 70 feet on a lot.

Are people really saying their dog will be reactive to a dog tugging FIFTY FEET away from them?
'Cause right now, 10 ft away is okay - sure it is outside the ring, but this means 10 ft away from you waiting to start, people can tug. 10ft away from your exit, people can tug.  (And that 10ft radius continues with the even-ok-in-ring rule).
...but *five times that distance that currently is allowed that you may deal with*, isn't?

Just...seems like people are over-reactive here, not their dogs. LOL.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 08:10:20 AM by Edraith »
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Jeff Newman

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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2019, 09:58:30 AM »
Chris,
I would like to applaud the planned changes you have initiated!
Every venue allows the dog to target the leash at the end of a run.
Allowing tugging with the dog helps with engagement at the end of a run and this will bring several friends back to NADAC!
Happy to hear the Gamblers class making a comeback!
Course design by the judges sounds like we will some new and more challenging courses!
The new judging format sounds great for regular distance challenges!
Overall this news is great!
I look forward to hearing more about the positive changes!!!
Don't let the naysayers change your mind on the leash tugging rule!!!
ALL VENUES ALLOW SOME FORM OF LEASH INTERACTION!!!!
Jeff and the PACK in Phoenix!!!

Sharon Nelson

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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2019, 10:49:44 AM »
In regards to tugging, I do think that we have to look the fact we are talking NADAC!  And NADAC competitors have a history of being polite and friendly and considerate of other competitors.  I think that is why we never see people tugging alongside the ring now tugging and bothering other teams.  They could if they wanted to, but they don't.  They do considerate other teams and how it affects them.

I don't foresee that we will see any teams staying in the ring at the end of the run doing an extended tugging.   What I do see is that it could very well speed up the trial!  If you watch teams running now, there is a huge increase in the number of dogs that either don't finish the last obstacle or they do the last one and then CHARGE back at the handlers, barking, nipping, and even BITING their handlers at the finish.  That used to happen occasionally, but now it happens a lot!  There seems to be a big rise in a lack of a good "finish line drive" and lots and lots of dogs charging back at the handlers.

If these dogs are trained to go to their leash, even if it means picking up the leash and then engaging the handlers in a game of tug, I believe that looks much better than the anger and ugliness of the dogs that charge at their handlers.  If the handlers can't train their dogs not to charge them at the finish, maybe they can train their dogs to have a great finish line drive to a leash!  It is going to make a much prettier picture to watch!  And if they do the courteous thing and get the leash on and have something in the dog's mouth besides a body part, then they will be out of the ring much faster than before! 

Let's get the training headed to a positive end!  The current training doesn't seem to be working to keep dogs from charging at the owners and if the dog is wanting to put something in it's mouth, then much better to be a leash than a body part of the handler!

I do believe that the NADAC people will keep it polite and it will actually speed up trials and make the entries and exits cleaner than they are now!  They can enter, run, and get out "as a team" instead of what we are seeing now that is rather ugly and time consuming. 

I do believe that it will be much more important that a leash runner does not carry the leash to the handler, when they very well might be carrying the dog's toy across the ring.  Whether they put it on the ground, a chair, leash pole or whatever the handler wants, the leash runner can do their job and be right back at the start for the next dog.
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Chris Nelson

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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2019, 11:13:18 AM »
In regards to tugging, I do think that we have to look the fact we are talking NADAC!  And NADAC competitors have a history of being polite and friendly and considerate of other competitors.  I think that is why we never see people tugging alongside the ring now tugging and bothering other teams.  They could if they wanted to, but they don't.  They do considerate other teams and how it affects them.

I don't foresee that we will see any teams staying in the ring at the end of the run doing an extended tugging.   What I do see is that it could very well speed up the trial!  If you watch teams running now, there is a huge increase in the number of dogs that either don't finish the last obstacle or they do the last one and then CHARGE back at the handlers, barking, nipping, and even BITING their handlers at the finish.  That used to happen occasionally, but now it happens a lot!  There seems to be a big rise in a lack of a good "finish line drive" and lots and lots of dogs charging back at the handlers.

If these dogs are trained to go to their leash, even if it means picking up the leash and then engaging the handlers in a game of tug, I believe that looks much better than the anger and ugliness of the dogs that charge at their handlers.  If the handlers can't train their dogs not to charge them at the finish, maybe they can train their dogs to have a great finish line drive to a leash!  It is going to make a much prettier picture to watch!  And if they do the courteous thing and get the leash on and have something in the dog's mouth besides a body part, then they will be out of the ring much faster than before! 

Let's get the training headed to a positive end!  The current training doesn't seem to be working to keep dogs from charging at the owners and if the dog is wanting to put something in it's mouth, then much better to be a leash than a body part of the handler!

I do believe that the NADAC people will keep it polite and it will actually speed up trials and make the entries and exits cleaner than they are now!  They can enter, run, and get out "as a team" instead of what we are seeing now that is rather ugly and time consuming. 

I do believe that it will be much more important that a leash runner does not carry the leash to the handler, when they very well might be carrying the dog's toy across the ring.  Whether they put it on the ground, a chair, leash pole or whatever the handler wants, the leash runner can do their job and be right back at the start for the next dog.


I agree the leash running criteria will need to be updated a bit in order to prevent any possible issues.

I think what I really want to stress to everyone is that it is a test period from June to December.    And during THAT period is when we are going to be really receptive to any feedback.   Right now any feedback is based off worst case scenarios, and situations we've seen in other venues.   Which doesn't apply well to NADAC as Sharon mentioned, we tend to be pretty respectful of others at trials and that is definitely something we don't want to change.

Once the test period is over, and the votes are tallied in December, that is when we can start to make some adjustments for the issues that occurred.   Whether that be requiring leash poles, leash poles with buckets, leash runners dropping leashes as a new default, or any other adjustment that is needed.

Or it's entirely possible that the majority vote goes in the opposite direction in December and it just isn't allowed.    I personally doubt that will happen, but I have been wrong before.   I would have made big bets on how the January votes were going to end up, and I would have lost a LOT of money!


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Re: Questions about changes in 2019-2020
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2019, 09:32:40 PM »
On different change announcements no one has talked about yet:

1)  In 2020 you are increasing what clubs/businesses will pay to judges per run by 50% and to NADAC per run for recording fees by 50%.  Small businesses and clubs will go out of business. We are struggling. Happy for those that you say have 1000 runs in three days, but my trials are just two days and already donít fill. Runs are cheap $10 per if I have to charge more per run how will that increase my entires ? Another class wonít do it. Why are we paying to record NQs when they are never recorded ? I can understand paying the judge as they scored those runs. NADAC doesnít record NQs.

2). I can not understand why you will be charging judges for courses so they can go out and work for NADAC to make NADAC money.

Respectfully

Chris Nelson

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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2019, 05:14:39 AM »
On different change announcements no one has talked about yet:

1)  In 2020 you are increasing what clubs/businesses will pay to judges per run by 50% and to NADAC per run for recording fees by 50%.  Small businesses and clubs will go out of business. We are struggling. Happy for those that you say have 1000 runs in three days, but my trials are just two days and already donít fill. Runs are cheap $10 per if I have to charge more per run how will that increase my entires ? Another class wonít do it. Why are we paying to record NQs when they are never recorded ? I can understand paying the judge as they scored those runs. NADAC doesnít record NQs.

2). I can not understand why you will be charging judges for courses so they can go out and work for NADAC to make NADAC money.

Respectfully


As I mentioned in the video, there hasnít been a price increase basically since the inception of nadac.   Name a single product in the world that doesnít adjust for inflation?    The cost of everything involved in running nadac has increased,  the number of employees has increased, but weíre still charging the same as in 1993.

Itís just not feasible.

And itís very simple,  you charge $1 more per run and it doesnít cost the club a dime extra.   We never expected clubs to NOT charge more, thatís not feasible.

2). We are only going to be charging a small fee for the judges who wonít design their own courses,  and that fee will go directly to the judge who DID design the set.   

Again, show me any other service where someone gets something entirely for free, and then gets to go out and make money from it,  and the person who put in the work for that product gets nothing?




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danforth

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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2019, 06:01:08 AM »
Is there any copyright issues involved with courses?  Does the course designer or NADAC own that copyright?  as a librarian, I just that perhaps that issue should be resolved before it becomes an issue.

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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #71 on: February 08, 2019, 06:05:56 AM »
Is there any copyright issues involved with courses?  Does the course designer or NADAC own that copyright?  as a librarian, I just that perhaps that issue should be resolved before it becomes an issue.

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No I donít think we need to delve that far into it :)




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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2019, 07:58:32 AM »
In my opinion, the leash thing is getting blown out of proportion.  I have been doing both AKC and NADAC since I started doing agility about 10 years ago.  AKC has always allowed tugging on the leash while still in the ring at the end of a run.  Believe me, it is no big deal.  Some people do it and some people don't.  I have literally NEVER seen a situation where the incoming team got distracted by the departing team during this process.  And that takes into consideration that the AKC judges tend to be much more lenient about when to let the next team start than NADAC judges.

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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2019, 09:02:09 AM »
On different change announcements no one has talked about yet:

1)  In 2020 you are increasing what clubs/businesses will pay to judges per run by 50% and to NADAC per run for recording fees by 50%.  Small businesses and clubs will go out of business. We are struggling. Happy for those that you say have 1000 runs in three days, but my trials are just two days and already donít fill. Runs are cheap $10 per if I have to charge more per run how will that increase my entires ? Another class wonít do it. Why are we paying to record NQs when they are never recorded ? I can understand paying the judge as they scored those runs. NADAC doesnít record NQs.

2). I can not understand why you will be charging judges for courses so they can go out and work for NADAC to make NADAC money.

Respectfully
Lin,

Your exhibitors should fully understand a $1 per run price increase. Considering that your club charged $14 a run for less than full entry and $13 a run for full entry during all of 2017, I donít think they are stranger to higher entry fees. Just keep your Sept 2018 price increase and reuse it later this year and I bet exhibitors will understand!




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Lin Battaglia

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Re: January 2019 Announcement Video
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2019, 10:25:39 AM »
You are wrong Jimmy. Our prices in 2017 varied depending on a full entry or not. Some $14, $13, $12 and $10. Some people only do two runs a day. Yes, they paid $14 a run in 2017. So who is supporting the trial the most ? In Nov 2017 we charged flat rate $10 per run. In 2018 everyone paid the same no matter how many dogs or how many runs. I had people with one dog complain that people with more than one dog got a discount and they didnít. But they did for a full entry. In 2018 everyone got the same deal, I increased by one $1 for one trial when I flew a judge in from Canada which was costly. People didnít like that increase and I heard about it. Flights for judges vary $350-$600. People only have so much money to spend on a game we play with our dogs.

I am happy to say I am getting private messages of encouragement for standing up and speaking for those that canít or wonít speak up.