Author Topic: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground  (Read 1487 times)

KarissaKS

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New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« on: May 31, 2019, 03:29:56 PM »
This weekend marks the beginning of tugging being allowed in the ring, which I love (thank you!). However, I do not love the (unpublished) rule that has seemingly come with it regarding the placement of the leash if one asks for their leash to be placed on the ground. Considering that having the leash on the ground has ALWAYS been allowed, I do not know why there was a sudden need to dictate where it goes.

As it was explained to us today, the judges were told that if someone asks for their leash to be placed on the ground, the leash should now be placed at a whisker/marker for consistency. I believe there may still be an option to use a bucket or leash holder, but in absence of these (or perhaps as a preference) the whisker is to be used. Judges were told by NADAC that said whiskers should be placed 6'-7' to the side of the last obstacle and 6'-7' behind said obstacle.

I am not okay with this. I want my dogs extending over the last obstacle. If this obstacle is a jump, their natural extended stride would be equal or greater to 6' from the base of the jump. My dogs know to go to their leash at the end of the run. This is not to say that they "target" their leash. At no point do I ever indicate to them during a run to get their leash, but they know the routine is to finish the course, find their leash, and wait for me. It took my dogs one run to learn where that leash was and it caused me problems the rest of the day and made me alter how I chose to handle/run them.  It is TOO CLOSE.  They wrapped back on the last obstacle every time. I understand placing the leash off to the side to avoid targeting, but what rationale is there for having it so close to the obstacle? Could it not be off to the side FARTHER AWAY?

In Weavers the course actually passed through the finish hoop to another tunnel. The whisker/leash was placed right in the dog's running path between these two obstacles. If a club were using a bucket or leash holder they would not be placed in the middle of the dog's path, but that's where the whisker was.

The leash runner would NEVER stand 6'-7' away from the last obstacle as you run towards them. At least I hope they wouldn't. When I leash run I know I hang well back from the last obstacle and walk to meet the handler. By the time we reach each other they are probably something like 20' away from the last obstacle, at least if they are a handler that runs with their dog.

As a handler, if the course allows, I run through the finish and well past the timers to encourage my dogs to drive hard through the end. Having the leash in my path 6'-7' past the last obstacle is a trip hazard. Additionally, now my dog and I have ran PAST the leash and need to turn around to find it.

We were told that NADAC chose this placement to make it "quicker" to leash the dogs and get out of the ring. I would pose to you that I'm going to get out of the ring a heck of a lot faster if my leash is by the gate. Having my leash near the gate would also help to alleviate some of the concerns that people have regarding their dog getting distracted by the dog at the other end of the ring tugging. If I leash my dog by the gate he will be tugging in the ring for a couple of seconds before we exit. If I have to leash him right next to the last obstacle we might have a 40' walk out of the ring in some rings/course designs. Seems to me like it would be a lot better for everyone involved if the leash was set closer to the gate, not the last obstacle.

Please address this issue. Placing the leash so close to the last obstacle is not okay.
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Chris Nelson

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2019, 05:37:13 PM »
Putting the leash by the gate ain't gonna happen.

Soon as the dog finishes everyone always quits running, no one is going to continue to run to the exit gate to leash up, they barely even break out of a walk to get to the leash runner as it is.

As for the placement, I'm sure it can be reviewed and adjustments can be made.

The big thing is the leash WILL NOT be placed directly in front of the last obstacle.    I don't want to deal with people targeting to the leash, and the issues that brings.
The reason the placement rule is now in effect is because before it was highly frowned upon to have your dog grab the leash and bring it back, so we could place it directly in front of the last obstacle since everyone knew they had to train their dogs not to grab it.

Now, they can grab it.   which means they can target it, which is why it has to be off to the side of the last obstacle.    the 7' mark is just to keep it relatively close so the handler isn't going way off to the side to grab their leash.


KarissaKS

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2019, 05:49:24 PM »
Thank you for your quick response. As I stated, I have no problem with the leash being off to the side. It could be 20' off to the side for all I care. The problem I have is with it being placed 6'-7' behind the last obstacle that I want my dogs to take in extension. Surely there is a happy medium between this and "the gate." It is too close.
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Lynn Broderick

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2019, 06:23:42 PM »
Is this new rule in the rulebook? I was unaware of this new protocol for where to place the leash if it's not being held out by the leash runner.

Have I missed others that go into effect June 1st, other than the toy in the ring?

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KellyDittmar

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2019, 06:31:53 PM »
You could always use the leash runner handing the leash to you option, Karissa, and then placement on the ground is a total non issue.
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KarissaKS

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2019, 06:56:15 PM »
You could always use the leash runner handing the leash to you option, Karissa, and then placement on the ground is a total non issue.

NADAC has always allowed the leash to be placed on the ground. I choose to go this route for a variety of reasons (namely because my dogs run to their leashes and mouth them until I get there in every other organization where I play, and I don't want to YELL at them not to do it in NADAC). Now with this change to the rules those of us who ask for our leashes to be placed on the ground are being penalized. Add to that, I'm pretty sure that most of us who ask it to be placed on the ground probably have dogs running in full extension, not loping through the last obstacle. Another one of the reasons that I have it put on the ground is so that I don't have to worry about running over the leash runner as they hover near the end. I have an end of run routine in place that works very well for my dogs. An end of run routine that previously also worked in NADAC. Now I have to worry about my dog injuring himself contorting himself to go to his leash, or possibly knocking bars because he pulls up short when he sees his leash 6' away.
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knittingdog

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2019, 08:05:32 PM »

Just to make sure that Iím clear on the new rule - the default is for the leash runner to hand the leash to the handler at the end - as it always has been, correct?  This new placement is only for the people who ask to have their leash on the ground?

Robin

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2019, 08:10:48 PM »

Just to make sure that Iím clear on the new rule - the default is for the leash runner to hand the leash to the handler at the end - as it always has been, correct?  This new placement is only for the people who ask to have their leash on the ground?

Robin

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Chris Nelson

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2019, 09:18:06 PM »
For the people reading this we'll explain why we're more particular about where the leash goes now.

Back before we allowed tugging having the dog grab the leash was very much frowned upon.   We made a change last year that the dog could have the leash in it's mouth, but it was still not really used all that often and a lot of judges were a bit unclear on it.

But targeting to the leash was never an issue, since the dog grabbing the leash would have been an E and everyone avoided it like the plague.

With tugging now being allowed, and by default the dogs grabbing the leash at the end of the run as well, it opens up the door to people targeting their dogs to the leash.   Which is why we told our judges to have a designated spot where the leash runners would place the leash, mainly off to the side of the last obstacle, so that any dogs targeting to the leash would be going off course.  Therefore removing the ability for anyone to target to the leash.

We're going to ask our judges to set the leash 8' out, and 8' down from the last obstacle from here on out and see how it goes.   I have to say I've been placing off to the side by about 6' for roughly 4 months and haven't had any issues that I wouldn't chalk up to training.    But we'll give a bit and more it down farther and out a bit farther.  Photo to illustrate

Sharon Nelson

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2019, 10:49:14 PM »
For the people reading this we'll explain why we're more particular about where the leash goes now.

Back before we allowed tugging having the dog grab the leash was very much frowned upon.   We made a change last year that the dog could have the leash in it's mouth, but it was still not really used all that often and a lot of judges were a bit unclear on it.

But targeting to the leash was never an issue, since the dog grabbing the leash would have been an E and everyone avoided it like the plague.

With tugging now being allowed, and by default the dogs grabbing the leash at the end of the run as well, it opens up the door to people targeting their dogs to the leash.   Which is why we told our judges to have a designated spot where the leash runners would place the leash, mainly off to the side of the last obstacle, so that any dogs targeting to the leash would be going off course.  Therefore removing the ability for anyone to target to the leash.

We're going to ask our judges to set the leash 8' out, and 8' down from the last obstacle from here on out and see how it goes.   I have to say I've been placing off to the side by about 6' for roughly 4 months and haven't had any issues that I wouldn't chalk up to training.    But we'll give a bit and more it down farther and out a bit farther.  Photo to illustrate


That seems very reasonable and fair to all.
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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2019, 05:08:27 AM »
Last weekend at YDS the judge used a round flat disc for the leash drop.  It was off to the side.  Those that chose to use it didnít seem to have any issue with the dogs pulling up short to target the leash.  It was off to the side and the dogs took the last obstacle just fine.  It seemed to work well.

Rachelle
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KarissaKS

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2019, 01:12:48 PM »


My video from Jedi's runs yesterday is above. In his first round of Weavers you can see his "normal" end behavior of running in extension through the end. After that he knew where the leash was and you can see that he collects prior to the last hoop so that he can turn and go to his leash. The leash is out of frame in Jumpers, but you can see he adds a short stride before the last jump. Same in Regular, he collects and turns immediately following the last hoop because he goes to his leash. (In Chances I pushed hard to ensure he wasn't going to wrap and drop the last bar.) For the record, when I say that this is his "normal end behavior" I mean that he runs this way in all organizations, he's not in extension because he's targeting his leash because in those rings they are by the gate. It's fine if someone says a leash 6' away doesn't affect their dog, but it affects mine.

The leash seemed a bit further away today, as I assume our judge this weekend is very much on top of things. While I would prefer the leash to be more like 15' - 20' away from the last obstacle, this was better than 6'.
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Karl Schulzki

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2019, 02:48:57 PM »
I used the 8' marker at a trial last weekend.  It worked very well.  The few dogs that were in full extension at the last obstacle didn't change their behavior because the leash was there, as 11 feet away was enough(which is the distance when you measure 8' past and 8' over)  The handlers that had their leash on the ground liked the distance because it meant it took less time to get their dog leashed as they were generally well behind their dog at finish line. 
Before we had a specified placement I'd seen leash runners drop it much closer than this and rarely heard a complaint.

Plus, the finish line of most Elite courses I set is often 15' - 18' and sometimes less from the ring boundary making the leash 10' or less from the exit anyway.  Which, in my opinion, is as close to the exit as I would want the leash.  I've seen far more dogs collect at the end because of the proximity of the boundary than the leash on the ground.

Karl

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2019, 06:16:24 PM »
Whiskers were used at Purina Funraiser last weekend. There were no problems over 4 days that I am aware of.

Usually the last obstacle is closer than 15-20' away from the exit gate, so I don't see a leash being put there.

The rules are not being made for just one dog.
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: New Rule Regarding Placement of Leash on Ground
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2019, 01:27:28 AM »


My video from Jedi's runs yesterday is above. In his first round of Weavers you can see his "normal" end behavior of running in extension through the end. After that he knew where the leash was and you can see that he collects prior to the last hoop so that he can turn and go to his leash. The leash is out of frame in Jumpers, but you can see he adds a short stride before the last jump. Same in Regular, he collects and turns immediately following the last hoop because he goes to his leash. (In Chances I pushed hard to ensure he wasn't going to wrap and drop the last bar.) For the record, when I say that this is his "normal end behavior" I mean that he runs this way in all organizations, he's not in extension because he's targeting his leash because in those rings they are by the gate. It's fine if someone says a leash 6' away doesn't affect their dog, but it affects mine.

The leash seemed a bit further away today, as I assume our judge this weekend is very much on top of things. While I would prefer the leash to be more like 15' - 20' away from the last obstacle, this was better than 6'.

I see many times that he takes short strides while doing sequences that should be "in full extension" during those course parts and yet he throws in an extra short stride instead of extending.  It seems that you are focusing on the finish and his short stride there, but he does in in every course.  Times when he could take an extended two strides but instead he takes a three stride or even four strides instead.  So taking a short stride before an obstacle is practiced many times by him during the course runs.  He looks good and does it well and the finish doesn't appear to be different than many other sequences.   Some people teach a finish command that tells them to run out fast at the finish and not have that little extra short stride like he does during his course runs.  Maybe that would be a possible option to tell him that the finish is different than the other parts of the course?
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