Author Topic: Double run thought?  (Read 5194 times)

Maureen deHaan

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Double run thought?
« on: November 20, 2019, 02:27:04 PM »
Has NADAC ever considered allowing double run events where every course is a reversal (or with a slight tweak) to alleviate the redundancy of repeating the same course every time? Just curious ....I get kind bored with double runs ....

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Jeff Lyons

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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2019, 02:42:02 PM »
The problem would be the additional walk-throughs for each level, which saves a ton of time in the double-run format.
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BeckyAH

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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2019, 03:39:29 PM »
The problem would be the additional walk-throughs for each level, which saves a ton of time in the double-run format.

Yeah, but you still save time on the rebuild, so as a time saving measure without going to full double run.

I like the benefits of double runs for clubs.

But MAN with 3 dogs,  running the same course 6 times gets OLD.

Marcy Matties

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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2019, 05:26:42 PM »
The other issue is that some courses do not lend themselves to be run the reverse direction.   Some might be just fine that way - but others could stink big time.  An angle that's good in one direction is not always good in the opposite direction.
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Maureen deHaan

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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2019, 02:24:13 AM »
What's the big deal about extra walk throughs? Our trials are so small that we all get done by 4pm in standard format with extra builds and walk throughs. I don't understand why everyone wants to rush to be done - in the old days trials wouldn't end till 8pm sometimes and that was with 4 events a day. 

regarding - angles - yes I understand that - that is why I said tweaking - courses can be tweaked very quickly and many courses lend themselves to a nice reversal - and if judges are designing their own courses why can't they design something that can be reversed ?

I personally am very bored running the same course 4x (2dogs)
Maureen, Kiva & Zoe
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Sara Langston

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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2019, 06:15:58 AM »
I personally love the double run format!!!!  If my dog and I have trouble in a place I didn't see during the walk through, we can give that special attention on the second run.  I, too, run two dogs (4 runs of same course) sometimes in the same class level.  Our trials are small as well and, sometimes, there is only one dog in a class with my two.  Sometimes, my Rat Terrier is the only one in his jump height so I am running him back to back.   Yes, it is hard on me as an old person, however, it is never boring.  It always feels so good to come back on the second run and nail something that we messed up on the first run.  Long live the Double Run Format!!!!!!

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Amy McGovern

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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2019, 06:51:52 AM »
What's the big deal about extra walk throughs? Our trials are so small that we all get done by 4pm in standard format with extra builds and walk throughs. I don't understand why everyone wants to rush to be done - in the old days trials wouldn't end till 8pm sometimes and that was with 4 events a day. 

Not all trials are as small as yours!  Many are full or close to full and adding the extra walk-throughs makes it go from a decent length day to 12-14 hours in the barns.  That isn't fun for anyone...

Given the new format, you can choose to have your shows not be double run and keep yourself happy that way.  And other clubs can choose double run or mixed and everyone is happy.  I like the idea.  Double run is very popular in the midwest and I personally love the format.  And yes, I run multiple dogs.  Each dog is different so I am definitely not bored running it repeatedly!
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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2019, 07:31:02 AM »
I agree.  We love Double Run format in the  midwest.  It has really changed my mindset to try handling in new ways. I do appreciate that trials don't run until 8:00.  We have to travel if we want to trial on a regular basis and heading out on a 5 hour drive at even 5:00 or 6:00 is not very fun.

The standard format option is available and if trials are small the extra course builds shouldn't cause a problem.

I'm not a course designer but just watching jumpers be built I would think it would be tough to design jumpers to be run in reverse.

Gina Pizzo

mephalon

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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2019, 09:28:43 AM »
"The standard format option is available and if trials are small the extra course builds shouldn't cause a problem."

True but only being able to offer 7 classes could cause a problem in the bottom line....
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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2019, 10:12:51 AM »
"The standard format option is available and if trials are small the extra course builds shouldn't cause a problem."

True but only being able to offer 7 classes could cause a problem in the bottom line....

I'm not sure that would be true, I sign up for the number of classes I want to do. If you are doing Standard format with 7 runs and I'm only doing 6 classes, I didn't change your bottom line at that trial.

Double run of 8 and I'm doing 6 is the same amount of money from me.

I'd like to know how many people really sign up for every class at every trial, I doubt universally everyone signs up for every class, that adds up to a lot of moola for all those attending. I choose what I want to do and Pay.
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Maureen deHaan

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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2019, 02:10:44 PM »
"The standard format option is available and if trials are small the extra course builds shouldn't cause a problem."

True but only being able to offer 7 classes could cause a problem in the bottom line....

I'm not sure that would be true, I sign up for the number of classes I want to do. If you are doing Standard format with 7 runs and I'm only doing 6 classes, I didn't change your bottom line at that trial.

Double run of 8 and I'm doing 6 is the same amount of money from me.

I'd like to know how many people really sign up for every class at every trial, I doubt universally everyone signs up for every class, that adds up to a lot of moola for all those attending. I choose what I want to do and Pay.

Couple of things -

1)Yes the difference between 7 & 8 runs does change the bottom line - it did for me in October - I offered 8 runs saturday and 7 on sunday and as you know (bc you were there)  my trial was in the red - had I offered the 8th class on sunday I would have covered my costs. I would not have profited too much but I would have covered my costs - as it was I had to pay my trial insurance (which is quite expensive) out of my own pocket and all the hospitality - work raffle, nq raffle and worker snacks (outside of what was donated) - I have no money right now to buy ribbons for 2020 bc my last trial lost $$ - I will have to buy them myself.  The 8th run would have eased that burden to my personal account.

2) when its NOT double run - I generally enter every event for both of my dogs - if it IS double run I do not always enter every run for both dogs. I don't make the choices based on money - I make those choices based on what is best for my dogs at the time.
Maureen, Kiva & Zoe
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BeckyAH

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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2019, 02:38:11 PM »
"The standard format option is available and if trials are small the extra course builds shouldn't cause a problem."

True but only being able to offer 7 classes could cause a problem in the bottom line....

I'm not sure that would be true, I sign up for the number of classes I want to do. If you are doing Standard format with 7 runs and I'm only doing 6 classes, I didn't change your bottom line at that trial.

Double run of 8 and I'm doing 6 is the same amount of money from me.

I'd like to know how many people really sign up for every class at every trial, I doubt universally everyone signs up for every class, that adds up to a lot of moola for all those attending. I choose what I want to do and Pay.

I do sign up for the runs I want to do.

But with 3 dogs, I very often do not feel like doing the same touch and go course 6 times.   So 1 or more of my dogs doesn't run it, or I just do one round.    I also find if I want to run my vet dog in both elite jumpers  runs in a beta trial, I'm going to NOT enter her in something else (probably regular), because that's a big ask of her  energy, speed, and impact wise on a single day, back to back so I have to cut some things.  1 round + other stuff, with most being non jumping or shorter courses  is also fine.

Then there's what happens if classes I need at a given time have both runs on Saturday - I enter Saturday and skip Sunday (or whatever).

It isn't just about how much money I'm willing/able to spend.

And I think most people make similar decisions.

(I'm not weighing in on anything beyond that -  Bottom lines do change based on  format, because money isn't the only consideration/limit)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 02:42:02 PM by BeckyAH »

Ed and Dino

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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2019, 04:33:23 PM »
"The standard format option is available and if trials are small the extra course builds shouldn't cause a problem."

True but only being able to offer 7 classes could cause a problem in the bottom line....

I'm not sure that would be true, I sign up for the number of classes I want to do. If you are doing Standard format with 7 runs and I'm only doing 6 classes, I didn't change your bottom line at that trial.

Double run of 8 and I'm doing 6 is the same amount of money from me.

I'd like to know how many people really sign up for every class at every trial, I doubt universally everyone signs up for every class, that adds up to a lot of moola for all those attending. I choose what I want to do and Pay.

Couple of things -

1)Yes the difference between 7 & 8 runs does change the bottom line - it did for me in October - I offered 8 runs saturday and 7 on sunday and as you know (bc you were there)  my trial was in the red - had I offered the 8th class on sunday I would have covered my costs. I would not have profited too much but I would have covered my costs - as it was I had to pay my trial insurance (which is quite expensive) out of my own pocket and all the hospitality - work raffle, nq raffle and worker snacks (outside of what was donated) - I have no money right now to buy ribbons for 2020 bc my last trial lost $$ - I will have to buy them myself.  The 8th run would have eased that burden to my personal account.

2) when its NOT double run - I generally enter every event for both of my dogs - if it IS double run I do not always enter every run for both dogs. I don't make the choices based on money - I make those choices based on what is best for my dogs at the time.

I had only signed up for 6 runs on Sunday at your trial, so once again I would not have helped your profitability since I was only doing 6 runs. Belle also was only doing 6 classes on Sunday.

For me (one intro dog) I am not signing up for every run at an 8 run standard or mixed format trial at this point in Tres' development.

I feel bad you lost money, I love your site and your trial but I think this means you need to raise your entry fees, you can't be losing money.

I realize there is money curve but if you don't go profitable then you stop running your trials.
If you raise entry fees and lose too many entrants then I guess you stop running trials.

If you raise entry fees and go profitable - Great!
Ed & Tres
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mephalon

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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2019, 06:14:18 AM »
I do sign up for the runs I want to do.

But with 3 dogs, I very often do not feel like doing the same touch and go course 6 times.   So 1 or more of my dogs doesn't run it, or I just do one round.    I also find if I want to run my vet dog in both elite jumpers  runs in a beta trial, I'm going to NOT enter her in something else (probably regular), because that's a big ask of her  energy, speed, and impact wise on a single day, back to back so I have to cut some things.  1 round + other stuff, with most being non jumping or shorter courses  is also fine.

Then there's what happens if classes I need at a given time have both runs on Saturday - I enter Saturday and skip Sunday (or whatever).

It isn't just about how much money I'm willing/able to spend.

And I think most people make similar decisions.

(I'm not weighing in on anything beyond that -  Bottom lines do change based on  format, because money isn't the only consideration/limit)
[/quote]

Completely agree with this-  I am fortunate that my bottom line is not an absolute- it depends on class order,  format and classes.   I rarely enter the last class of the day (even if I am camping at the trial site)- if it is double run technically I am not entering the last TWO classes of the day which equals less $$$ to the trial host.   
Mary P.

RobertStewart

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Re: Double run thought?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2019, 07:18:53 AM »
What's the big deal about extra walk throughs? Our trials are so small that we all get done by 4pm in standard format with extra builds and walk throughs. I don't understand why everyone wants to rush to be done - in the old days trials wouldn't end till 8pm sometimes and that was with 4 events a day. 

regarding - angles - yes I understand that - that is why I said tweaking - courses can be tweaked very quickly and many courses lend themselves to a nice reversal - and if judges are designing their own courses why can't they design something that can be reversed ?

I personally am very bored running the same course 4x (2dogs)

The big deal is the extra time a getting people to work. I run 3 dogs on the same course, and often a 4th never gets boring because i am staying in the moment with the dog, and each dogs handles differently.

Try running them differently each time, add more distance, run silently there lots of ways to keep the mind active and engaged.

I am NEVER bored with agility (okay maybe here and there - but it's rare)


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