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1
General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by BeckyAH on Today at 08:29:06 PM »
I will chime in here. :-) I am the one who reviews VTs, and sometimes when doing large batches I do miss things every now and then. With the changes coming in January, these oversights should hopefully be completely stopped with some changes on my end that will be made. :-)

Chris is currently out of town right now, But i am sure he will chime in on a few things in here as well once he gets a chance.

I do agree that we need to listen to why people aren’t doing NADAC, and Chris and I have been trying very hard to do that this year and will be doing the same next year.  Every venue has something different to offer, and I am personally against venue bashing of any kind.

There are lots of different flavors of agility to do, and I think every venue should be listening to their competitors. That doesn’t mean making every change that competitors want, but we should always be listening! :-)

Amanda


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Amanda, even judges at trials miss some things.  I would think once you have more time or people to review the videos that judging will be tougher than regular trials since you can rewind and watch in slow motion.

Gina

Seriously.  I've gotten Qs where I missed things and not gotten Qs I'm pretty sure I didn't.  That's the nature of the beast.  Judges do the best they can to be accurate and fair, competitors accept the ruling and move on.  Yes, the judges are always there to talk to and willing but 'the agility gods give and the agility gods taketh away' I thought was pretty fundamentally understood across all venues and sports.

As a general: "The judges do their best, ask if you had questions but accept their calls in the end, whether they're in your favor or against."

But my ability to care about someone else's 10pt Q is just not something that exists.  In fact it's negative, to the degree that I find the idea of even trying both weird and a little insulting.   I'm running my own race here, and on my own journey.  My only role in someone else's is to be supportive of them, and if I can't do that shut up and stay out of their way.   Actually, be supportive or get out of the way and don't hinder them is pretty much my philosophy in LIFE.

(Cheating is bad of course, and efforts should be made to stop it, but things like miscalls?  Not my journey - or circus or monkeys or problem or business.)
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by dogrsqr on Today at 07:32:10 PM »
I will chime in here. :-) I am the one who reviews VTs, and sometimes when doing large batches I do miss things every now and then. With the changes coming in January, these oversights should hopefully be completely stopped with some changes on my end that will be made. :-)

Chris is currently out of town right now, But i am sure he will chime in on a few things in here as well once he gets a chance.

I do agree that we need to listen to why people arenít doing NADAC, and Chris and I have been trying very hard to do that this year and will be doing the same next year.  Every venue has something different to offer, and I am personally against venue bashing of any kind.

There are lots of different flavors of agility to do, and I think every venue should be listening to their competitors. That doesnít mean making every change that competitors want, but we should always be listening! :-)

Amanda


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Amanda, even judges at trials miss some things.  I would think once you have more time or people to review the videos that judging will be tougher than regular trials since you can rewind and watch in slow motion.

Gina
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by dogrsqr on Today at 07:29:34 PM »
Quote
Are you talking about VT driving them away?

No, I'm talking about the attitude of "this is our game and if you don't like it you can leave" -- but then in the same breath crying about a lack of NADAC trials.

And for the record, I have talked to a number of competitors in other organizations who did cite the VT program as being a reason they don't respect NADAC enough to spend their money on it. I have also talked to NADAC competitors (past and present) who cited disdain for the VT program.

I fought against the program when the points were first combined. I lost then. I did less NADAC. I appear to have made zero impact this time. I am made to feel that my opinions don't count and that I'm wrong to feel the way I do. I am one of those apparent "rare" trainers who can and does train for skills across the board, and when I give my opinion and share things I hear at other trials I am essentially told that I don't count.

If you want to keep NADAC a club for NADAC purists then keep doing what you are doing. If you want to grow your numbers and draw in people who do other organizations then maybe be a bit more open to listening to why people don't want to do NADAC.

Also for the record, I was at a NADAC trial this weekend where a handful of people came up and said, "I saw what you posted and think you made good points" -- but not everyone is "brave" enough to speak up on these matters for whatever reason.

In addition to me having no faith that people adhere to the "first try" rule in VT submissions, I've also seen a number of examples of runs listed as qualifying that shouldn't have been. I saw a qualifying run in Chances with a dropped bar. I saw a qualifying run in Weavers where the dog skipped poles. I've seen submissions that were so blurry and from such a distance that I couldn't even see the bar, much less if one dropped or the contact angles are terrible. All of this is what goes to form my opinion that the VT program is not legit or on par with scores earned at trials.

Do any other venues ask why I don't trial there?  I think pretty much every trial around here is smaller than they use to be. I know our outdoor trials are smaller because too many people don't want to play outside and/or because they don't feel their dogs will stay with them in an unfenced ring. 

On a positive note our New Year's weekend trial filled again and we have a HUGE intro class. 

I have to agree with Becky that NADAC needs to be what it is.  Turning it into a diluted version of some other venue doesn't serve anyone.  I really can't believe that someone would choose not to play NADAC purely because of VT.  What other people do, even cheating, does not affect our accomplishments.  People cheated in school too, did that mean that my grade was of less worth?  What was the old saying When you cheat you're only cheating yourself.

Gina
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by Amanda Nelson on Today at 07:22:30 PM »
I will chime in here. :-) I am the one who reviews VTs, and sometimes when doing large batches I do miss things every now and then. With the changes coming in January, these oversights should hopefully be completely stopped with some changes on my end that will be made. :-)

Chris is currently out of town right now, But i am sure he will chime in on a few things in here as well once he gets a chance.

I do agree that we need to listen to why people arenít doing NADAC, and Chris and I have been trying very hard to do that this year and will be doing the same next year.  Every venue has something different to offer, and I am personally against venue bashing of any kind.

There are lots of different flavors of agility to do, and I think every venue should be listening to their competitors. That doesnít mean making every change that competitors want, but we should always be listening! :-)

Amanda


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
5
General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by KarissaKS on Today at 06:41:45 PM »
Quote
Are you talking about VT driving them away?

No, I'm talking about the attitude of "this is our game and if you don't like it you can leave" -- but then in the same breath crying about a lack of NADAC trials.

And for the record, I have talked to a number of competitors in other organizations who did cite the VT program as being a reason they don't respect NADAC enough to spend their money on it. I have also talked to NADAC competitors (past and present) who cited disdain for the VT program.

I fought against the program when the points were first combined. I lost then. I did less NADAC. I appear to have made zero impact this time. I am made to feel that my opinions don't count and that I'm wrong to feel the way I do. I am one of those apparent "rare" trainers who can and does train for skills across the board, and when I give my opinion and share things I hear at other trials I am essentially told that I don't count.

If you want to keep NADAC a club for NADAC purists then keep doing what you are doing. If you want to grow your numbers and draw in people who do other organizations then maybe be a bit more open to listening to why people don't want to do NADAC.

Also for the record, I was at a NADAC trial this weekend where a handful of people came up and said, "I saw what you posted and think you made good points" -- but not everyone is "brave" enough to speak up on these matters for whatever reason.

In addition to me having no faith that people adhere to the "first try" rule in VT submissions, I've also seen a number of examples of runs listed as qualifying that shouldn't have been. I saw a qualifying run in Chances with a dropped bar. I saw a qualifying run in Weavers where the dog skipped poles. I've seen submissions that were so blurry and from such a distance that I couldn't even see the bar, much less if one dropped or the contact angles are terrible. All of this is what goes to form my opinion that the VT program is not legit or on par with scores earned at trials.
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by dogrsqr on Today at 06:19:15 PM »
Frankly, the posts that say, "You don't even do VT so your opinion doesn't matter" don't do much to retain those of us who do currently support NADAC while competing in multiple organizations.

Also, as a trainer, I can't force my students to train for distance. I regularly share videos that show me working my dogs at a distance AND doing "international" skills. Quite honestly, the distance videos seem to get more interest and comments -- but I don't have one single person who has come to me and said, "Can you teach me to do that?" After my first batch of students went to their first NADAC trial, where they were exposed to Chances for the first time, I was asked to have a distance-specific class. I put it on the next schedule. Do you know how many people signed up? ONE. She admitted that she felt what she learned over those 6 weeks helped her in all of the courses we run, but after doing one NADAC trial and one AKC trial she said she thinks she'd rather do AKC. Why? Not sure, you'd have to ask her.

There are many reasons people don't do NADAC. Maybe you should ask them. Meanwhile maybe you should stop driving away the people who do include NADAC trials in their multi-venue pursuits.

Are you talking about VT driving them away?

I guess I will just say that there is always going to be some things that individuals will disagree with about any organization.  Some people will be drawn in by VT and some will be driven away by it. 

I used to trial in another venue, not a lot but the local trials.  When I came back to it with Abbey I found some things that I didn't like that were deal breakers to me so I quit entering even the local trials.  I didn't feel like I was driven away ... just that what was important to me wasn't part of that organization. In addition what has happened here is that all trials except the NADAC trials are indoors on matting in spaces that would make me claustrophobic.  While others seem to really enjoy that it's just not for me.


Gina

Sorry that really is Gina, using the club computer and showing up as Kelly.   .
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by BeckyAH on Today at 06:17:21 PM »
   Face it, weekly classes are places where folks meet other dog people and develop friendships.  They don't want to be kicked out into the unknown...
I'm certainly NOT talking about trainers who are open to teaching cross venue skills and who have and do step into the NADAC arena.

Becky

Yes.

Honestly, the most 'resistance' I see to NADAC has not a thing to do with the VT program - or distance.  It is, at the very basic level, the same reasons people  don't do any other agility venue - or actively mock and dislike them - and it has very, very little to do with courses, obstacles, vt programs (or not) or any other specific.

It's comfort zone.  It is straight up comfort zone.  I started in a class that used hoops and barrels and also had a teeter and chute (before it was removed) and tire and table - but the trainer has a NADAC club.  That means that when I finished classes, I folded into a NADAC club.  I do NADAC at private lessons, I do NADAC at club practices, I do NADAC trials.  NADAC is where my people are.   I didn't make a carefully considered decision as to where I would trial - I went with what was available close and within that where the people I am comfortable with were.  I have stayed almost entirely exclusively there because the longer I am in NADAC the more comfortable it is and the more different the other venues 'feel' to me and less interest I have.  Take all of that and apply it to a CPE, USDAA, or AKC competitor, only in reverse.

I had one person who thought even NADAC regular didn't have jumps - they just assumed we were more different and required so many completely unique skills that there was no point.  Not true, but given how hard I side-eye an AKC course after a while in NADAC, I can understand it.

And of course there's some general derision but that's always the sort that comes with 'the venue I run in/country I run in/system I run in is the best and nothing else counts' type crap that you really have to dismiss out of hand.  It's all basically justification and nonsense, and it's never based on anything solid except ego, pride, and/or justification for not wanting to leave their comfort zone (and again - I like my comfort zone so I can hardly complain).

Not that I don't hear specific reasons (rather than complaints) people don't run NADAC; I do.  A rulebook that's not up to date and frequently changing rules is a REALLY common one.  Otherwise?  That's just about it, online or off.    Sometimes stuff about their dogs being conditioned to tug into and out of the ring and not wanting to confuse the dog/take away their reward.   Some stuff about the expense of NADAC compliant equipment.

Mostly - comfort zone stuff (including comfort zone training things).

What I don't hear are complaints about the people, the dog, the atmosphere, or any real resistance to the actual agility - or anyone complaining about VT trials.

Frankly, unless we become AKC-lite, all of this stuff is going to apply.  And if we become AKC the second, we're going to lose other people.   Honestly the best bet for boosting numbers would probably to be getting out of our comfort zone, going to other venues and trials, making friends and bringing them back.  But I like my comfort zone, darn it, and as discussed elsewhere there are still time and money considerations.
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by KellyDittmar on Today at 06:16:39 PM »
Frankly, the posts that say, "You don't even do VT so your opinion doesn't matter" don't do much to retain those of us who do currently support NADAC while competing in multiple organizations.

Also, as a trainer, I can't force my students to train for distance. I regularly share videos that show me working my dogs at a distance AND doing "international" skills. Quite honestly, the distance videos seem to get more interest and comments -- but I don't have one single person who has come to me and said, "Can you teach me to do that?" After my first batch of students went to their first NADAC trial, where they were exposed to Chances for the first time, I was asked to have a distance-specific class. I put it on the next schedule. Do you know how many people signed up? ONE. She admitted that she felt what she learned over those 6 weeks helped her in all of the courses we run, but after doing one NADAC trial and one AKC trial she said she thinks she'd rather do AKC. Why? Not sure, you'd have to ask her.

There are many reasons people don't do NADAC. Maybe you should ask them. Meanwhile maybe you should stop driving away the people who do include NADAC trials in their multi-venue pursuits.

Are you talking about VT driving them away?

I guess I will just say that there is always going to be some things that individuals will disagree with about any organization.  Some people will be drawn in by VT and some will be driven away by it. 

I used to trial in another venue, not a lot but the local trials.  When I came back to it with Abbey I found some things that I didn't like that were deal breakers to me so I quit entering even the local trials.  I didn't feel like I was driven away ... just that what was important to me wasn't part of that organization. In addition what has happened here is that all trials except the NADAC trials are indoors on matting in spaces that would make me claustrophobic.  While others seem to really enjoy that it's just not for me.


Gina
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by KarissaKS on Today at 05:08:36 PM »
Frankly, the posts that say, "You don't even do VT so your opinion doesn't matter" don't do much to retain those of us who do currently support NADAC while competing in multiple organizations.

Also, as a trainer, I can't force my students to train for distance. I regularly share videos that show me working my dogs at a distance AND doing "international" skills. Quite honestly, the distance videos seem to get more interest and comments -- but I don't have one single person who has come to me and said, "Can you teach me to do that?" After my first batch of students went to their first NADAC trial, where they were exposed to Chances for the first time, I was asked to have a distance-specific class. I put it on the next schedule. Do you know how many people signed up? ONE. She admitted that she felt what she learned over those 6 weeks helped her in all of the courses we run, but after doing one NADAC trial and one AKC trial she said she thinks she'd rather do AKC. Why? Not sure, you'd have to ask her.

There are many reasons people don't do NADAC. Maybe you should ask them. Meanwhile maybe you should stop driving away the people who do include NADAC trials in their multi-venue pursuits.
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General Discussion / Re: VT Voting Results
« Last post by Richard Wolfe on Today at 04:26:00 PM »
This seems to me a very reasonable revamping of the program.

Thank you, Chris and NADAC staff, for allowing the competitors (customers) of NADAC the chance for input!!!!
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