NADAC Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Erin Wajda on January 15, 2013, 06:48:54 AM

Title: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Erin Wajda on January 15, 2013, 06:48:54 AM
I see on the calendar that some clubs are offering EGC classes combined with traditional classes on the same day.  I'm sorry if I missed this, but what are the rules about what we are allowed to offer?  This seems like a good option for offering EGC in areas where it might not yet be popular.

How many classes per day are clubs allowed to offer?

Are exhibitors still limited to entering 6 runs per day?

If we want to offer EGC classes, how do we know what judges are cleared to judge them?

Thanks for your help.
Erin
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Maureen deHaan on January 16, 2013, 02:44:42 AM
And if a trial is already confirmed - can EGC classes be added to the line up if the answer to Erin query is a yes??
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 16, 2013, 09:29:44 AM
And if a trial is already confirmed - can EGC classes be added to the line up if the answer to Erin query is a yes??

Yes, you can.

And I will have to go find Erin's query!

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 16, 2013, 09:31:13 AM
I see on the calendar that some clubs are offering EGC classes combined with traditional classes on the same day.  I'm sorry if I missed this, but what are the rules about what we are allowed to offer?  This seems like a good option for offering EGC in areas where it might not yet be popular.

How many classes per day are clubs allowed to offer?

Are exhibitors still limited to entering 6 runs per day?

If we want to offer EGC classes, how do we know what judges are cleared to judge them?

Thanks for your help.
Erin

With EGC a club could have a max of 8 classes, if at least runs are EGC for the competitors to run.

All judges will be approved to judge EGC.

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Maureen deHaan on January 16, 2013, 09:46:30 AM
Sharon - I think something got blipped out of your response to Erin...

SO we can add 2 EGC runs per day?  ANd then how many runs can a competitor enter per day total if a club offers 6 Agility and 2 EGC - can they enter all?

Question #2 - I suppose I would email you the additional runs then for my April trial and send you a check for $10 for each addeded EGC class (for trial fees??)
Title: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Erin Wajda on January 16, 2013, 10:23:24 AM
Thanks! This is a great option for us. And just to be clear, a competitor would be allowed to enter all 8 runs with the same dog if they wanted?
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 16, 2013, 11:29:04 AM
Thanks! This is a great option for us. And just to be clear, a competitor would be allowed to enter all 8 runs with the same dog if they wanted?

Yes, they could run all eight!

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 16, 2013, 11:30:38 AM
Sharon - I think something got blipped out of your response to Erin...

SO we can add 2 EGC runs per day?  ANd then how many runs can a competitor enter per day total if a club offers 6 Agility and 2 EGC - can they enter all?

Question #2 - I suppose I would email you the additional runs then for my April trial and send you a check for $10 for each addeded EGC class (for trial fees??)

Yes, you can add 2 EGC runs to each day.  A competitor can run all 8.

For Question #2, yes, you can add them by sending us the info and the fees.

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Maureen deHaan on January 16, 2013, 12:34:23 PM
Ok final question -

I have a judge under supervision for my April trial - SP 1 - Can he or the supervising judge - judge the EGC runs? Neither of them are EGC judges as of today ...

just want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row   ???
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 16, 2013, 02:45:17 PM
Ok final question -

I have a judge under supervision for my April trial - SP 1 - Can he or the supervising judge - judge the EGC runs? Neither of them are EGC judges as of today ...

just want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row   ???

Yes, the supervising judge could judge the EGC runs with prior consent from them!

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on January 17, 2013, 05:42:24 AM
How do we know if a judge is allowed to judge EGC?
I am looking at the judges list and dont see anything.

Is there a list somewhere of needed equipment for each class?

I know that  I wont offer hoopers as I dont have that many gates, but there other classes may be an option.

Thanks
lisa
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on January 17, 2013, 05:57:15 AM
I really need to get better as sitting in bed for hours and hours not being able to do much just makes me think about 'stuff'.... I can only watch so many of NCIS reruns in a day :)

since this thread started I have been really thinking about it.

Let me begin by stating i mean no disrespect and am honestly curious about my question ! (Scared Sharon hahahhaahha)

We have always had a 6 class limit a day, but now we can have up to 8 classes a day.    Why?  what is the philosophy behind being able to add 2 more runs?

I am particularly interested in your analysis of adrenaline.    I have read your posts about adrenaline carefully and thought about them alot.  My dogs experience a huge adrenaline rush doing EGC, more so than even doing tunnelers.     So adding 2 EGC runs for my dogs is not  the best thing.   

But if there are exhbitiors in my area that are interested in adding  a few EGC classes, I may try it.

I have 3 day trials, but offer good package deals so that people dont feel compelled to enter all classes.   But I am afraid if I add 2 EGC classes Fri and Sat, there are some people that would run their dogs in all 21 classes !!    There are dogs that can handle that well, but others that cant.... 

I am not going to drop any Regular trial classes for EGC.

Thoughts??

Lisa~who is very thankful for codeine. 

Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 17, 2013, 09:22:59 AM
Lisa, I think you answered all of your own questions!

Some people will pick and choose..... in some areas they will pick EGC over traditional classes... in other areas they won't enter EGC.... that is their choice.

If someone enters all runs and they shouldn't that is a personal problem if it is too much for their dog, not the club's issue..... it is the responsibility for each person to make the choices for their dog and they know their own dog the best... or they might find out that they don't know their dog.

EGC is not for every dog and handler... it is about split second handling at top speed.... many teams will do much better with actual obstacles to focus on and not just ground obstacles.

I can't say what a club should do... they know the competitors in their area the best!

If they don't know for sure, they can offer it and see how it goes and then make decisions for future trials.

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: TheQuestKnight on January 17, 2013, 11:10:42 AM
Hi Lisa!

Sorry to hear that you're currently in need of "crate rest" <G>, so you may want to check out re-runs of Criminal Minds, Bones and Law & Order SVU . . . the ensemble casts are GREAT and so are the story lines . . .

As for 8 classes a day . . . when I was younger and dumber . . . and had a "can't ever get enough agility partner" in Kali . . . we'd run every run available that we could . . . she never complained . . . unless she DIDN'T get to run something; but in time, her unbridled enthusiasm took it's toll on her body . . . and I learned a powerful lesson . . .

Sharon is sooooooooooooooooooo right that people will do stupid things no matter what is in place to try to prevent them from doing so . . .

IMHO, a couple of additional EGC runs is less stressful on a dog than taking said dog into an adjacent field and playing frisbee or tossing a ball to give one's dog something else to do between runs . . . for those dogs with that high of an energy level . . .

I also believe that most dogs handle adrenaline rushes rather well from a physiological standpoint . . . and that can be monitored with periodic blood work, which I believe is indicated for any competitive dog . . .

Mentally, repeated adrenaline rushes can have a negative impact on the dog's ability to maintain focus over the course of 8 runs in one day; but that is also so very dependant on the individual dog . . . and what handlers do to balance the effects of adrenaline on the dog's body and systems . . .

Personally, I would be MUCH more opposed to offering 8 classes per day and limiting dogs & handlers to their choice of 6 . . . I have had personal experience with that very format being done in another venue and it was a MESS . . .

I'd be willing to bet that the EGC/Traditional Trial mixed offering will NOT do well in the eastern Midwest, simply because, IMHO, that geographic region is stuck in a time warp going back 20+ years . . . they've been resistant to Hoopers and some have been resistant to the non-NATCH required "games" classes, so I don't see them readily embracing the EGC classes.

I would personally LOVE to see EGC flourish around northeast Ohio because we and ours would definitely play those games . . . NOT that we're good at them . . . to the contrary, playing around with the concepts at home, we kind of suck; but they're FUN . . . and they're NEW and DIFFERENT and they're NOT the BORING same old, same old that we did with our first agility dogs . . . we DON'T want to do that stuff again . . . been there, done that as far as we're concerned . . .

Perhaps the whole of Castle Camelot is afflicted with ADHD/hyperactivity disorder; but all of us are constantly looking for NEW things that challenge our minds and creative hands . . .

OK, so we're the weird ducks on the pond . . . that's NOTHING NEW for us! <LOL>

The only failure is the failure to try new things . . .

Hugs & wags,

Al & Barb Ceranko, Dred, Gael & Pellinore in OH   
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Cindy on January 17, 2013, 08:07:01 PM
Lisa,

Being in the northwest, I can't address what people in your area will do, but I can give my perspective on EGC runs being added to a traditional trial.  I have a soon to be 15 year old Beagle who still thinks she's 2.  She loves to run agility even more than she did when she was younger, and still makes Elite times, but I limit her to 2 runs a day and only one with jumps and/or contacts.  So, we do Regular or TnG and Hoopers or Tunnelers, depending on the offerings of the day.  When EGC is added to the trial, it gives me another option for her instead of Hoopers, Regular or TnG.  If the EGC is on the Friday night, then she'll do 2 runs of EGC and stay home the day that Tunnelers isn't offered.  She loves EGC, and I love that I have the option of reducing the impact on her body even further.  So while there are people who will just add the extra runs on, you may find there are people who will switch them out for more impactful runs, or even ones who will enter a dog they hadn't planned on entering since they have the EGC option.

Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Cynthia & springers on January 18, 2013, 05:51:07 AM
Having EGC mixed in with regular classes will give more people (like me) the opportunity to see the games and decide if they want to try them the next time.  It may provide more opportunities for the people who are interested in playing the games.  And if it results in more runs entered, it will be better for our groups putting on small trials with low entries up here in the Northeast.

Cynthia & the springers
Wilder, VT



Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Don Cuda on January 18, 2013, 07:04:02 AM
Lisa,
I have retired Blaze from agility after champs last year and will keep doing EGC with her as it is all ground work and she loves it. The said thing is I have no clubs around me that do any EGC or will add it on. I do feel you will pick up some folks that have a dog like I do (or maybe it a old handler). You can always try it and if it does not pan out you can drop it.   Go EGC!!!!
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Dave Worldsbesjrts Dad on January 18, 2013, 10:13:35 AM
That is my thinking it is a great thing for older dogs. 
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 18, 2013, 11:00:20 AM
That is my thinking it is a great thing for older dogs.

And it is pretty darn good for tuning up those handling skills.  And that is one reason many don't like it.... it does highlight any handling weakness or any training weakness for directional skills!

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Maureen deHaan on January 18, 2013, 04:30:58 PM
Wish there was a "LIKE" button for your last comment Sharon! 
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: LeeAnne McAdam on January 18, 2013, 07:21:18 PM
I love EGC and really wish that it could get enough support that we would see a full slate of it on its own at all the trials we attend, but if having the option to have a run or two added to a regular day means we will see more of it, I say hurray!!!
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Dave Worldsbesjrts Dad on January 19, 2013, 12:15:44 PM
That is my thinking it is a great thing for older dogs.

And it is pretty darn good for tuning up those handling skills.  And that is one reason many don't like it.... it does highlight any handling weakness or any training weakness for directional skills!

Sharon

That is so true.  I found out just how week my pathwork was when EGC runs let my dogs move at top speed. No time to make corrections of my mistakes.
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Jeanne Allen on January 19, 2013, 04:16:02 PM
I think it is great that we can add EGC to the regular trial!!!!  I have only done EGC twice (only because it is not being offered that much), but I really like how it shows holes in your handling.  I am guessing some of my club members are going to be pissed that the trial chair and I added 2 EGC runs on Friday of our April trial with out asking the club, but I am hoping that when they see it, they would like to see more!!!!!!
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 20, 2013, 12:29:44 PM
As we evaluate EGC and looks at stats and input.... it is possible that we might phase out Extreme Gaters and Extreme Chances as EGC gets merged into the regular NADAC trials.

I know this year at champs we will only be having Extreme Hoopers and Extreme Barrelers at the Champs.  We are also going to add hoops to the Extreme Barrelers to help people from getting lost so easily in the "sea of barrels" in Open and Elite.  Barrelers works at Novice.... but it gets visually tough at Open and Elite!


Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: dogrsqr on January 20, 2013, 04:19:51 PM
As we evaluate EGC and looks at stats and input.... it is possible that we might phase out Extreme Gaters and Extreme Chances as EGC gets merged into the regular NADAC trials.

ISharon

That would be very disappointing for me.  I really, really, really, like Extreme Chances and Extreme Gaters ........ Extreme Barrelers and Extreme Hoopers not so much. 

Can you share why this is being considered?  Am I the odd duck again and most people like Hoopers and Barrelers?

Gina Pizzo

Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 20, 2013, 04:45:08 PM
As we evaluate EGC and looks at stats and input.... it is possible that we might phase out Extreme Gaters and Extreme Chances as EGC gets merged into the regular NADAC trials.

ISharon

That would be very disappointing for me.  I really, really, really, like Extreme Chances and Extreme Gaters ........ Extreme Barrelers and Extreme Hoopers not so much. 

Can you share why this is being considered?  Am I the odd duck again and most people like Hoopers and Barrelers?

Gina Pizzo

The biggest reason is that Extreme Chances and Extreme Gaters don't offer a lot of "difference" that can't be found in other NADAC classes on a large scale.... the gates are unique, but other than that, the tests can be found within other NADAC classes such as Chances or the other non-jumping classes.  Barrellers and Extreme Hoopers do offer challenges that cannot be found within the other NADAC classes.  That is part of the reason that they are "tougher" and take a bit more training to conquer. 

I am always open to input and I hear you!

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Jeanne Allen on January 20, 2013, 05:15:45 PM
Thanks for the explanation on why the thought of phasing out Extreme Gaters and Extreme Chances, makes sense.  But for me and my local area, EGC has not taken off and I would like to see it take off.  Since I do not have the funds to have all of the equipment needed for Extreme Hoopers and Extreme Barrels, I can at least provide my club what I have to hold Extreme Gaters and Extreme Chances.

Yes, these two classes are similar to what we do on a normal weekend, but there are some differences.  I realized that this is one area of NADAC that accounts for refusals.  My area is still mostly AKC but I would think that all of the EGC classes would help AKC agility handlers in that they have to keep the dog on the path and it does show flaws in ones handling. 

One thought, could these classes be re-designed so they are not as similar to the regular weekend classes???

Just my 2 cents!
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: dogrsqr on January 20, 2013, 06:34:53 PM
[[/quote]

The biggest reason is that Extreme Chances and Extreme Gaters don't offer a lot of "difference" that can't be found in other NADAC classes on a large scale.... the gates are unique, but other than that, the tests can be found within other NADAC classes such as Chances or the other non-jumping classes.  Barrellers and Extreme Hoopers do offer challenges that cannot be found within the other NADAC classes.  That is part of the reason that they are "tougher" and take a bit more training to conquer. 

I am always open to input and I hear you!

Sharon
[/quote]

Honestly the reason that I dislike Barrellers is because to me it doesn't seem to have the typical NADAC flow.  It feels very tight and twisty to me.

Hoopers I don't mind, but I'd prefer the circle of gates be a line on the ground.  I feel like once my dog gets in the circle of gates we lose our visual communication.  Of course then it would be like numbered Hoopers with a distance line.

Gina Pizzo
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 20, 2013, 11:23:35 PM

Honestly the reason that I dislike Barrellers is because to me it doesn't seem to have the typical NADAC flow.  It feels very tight and twisty to me.

Hoopers I don't mind, but I'd prefer the circle of gates be a line on the ground.  I feel like once my dog gets in the circle of gates we lose our visual communication.  Of course then it would be like numbered Hoopers with a distance line.

Gina Pizzo

Yes, I am going to work on the course design for Barrelers and get a lot more "flow" into it!!

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: LeeAnne McAdam on January 21, 2013, 05:09:38 AM
Once EGC classes are offered with traditional classes and maybe more people are exposed to it and like it, would you consider keeping all the EGC classes so there could still be EGC trials or do you more envision it being handled like most clubs do  around here with some 3-day trials and they just pick and choose what games they offer?  We like to play them all!
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 21, 2013, 10:04:57 AM
Once EGC classes are offered with traditional classes and maybe more people are exposed to it and like it, would you consider keeping all the EGC classes so there could still be EGC trials or do you more envision it being handled like most clubs do  around here with some 3-day trials and they just pick and choose what games they offer?  We like to play them all!

That would be a great solution..... if EGC is offered on the same day as traditional classes, then limit those runs to Extreme Hoopers or Extreme Barrelers... but if it is a "stand alone" EGC trial, then all classes could be offered.....

Good input, folks!!

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Karin Bell on January 21, 2013, 10:31:08 AM
I really like the idea of introducing EGC into our Traditional Trial Format.  I think it will compliment what we are currently offering.  One concern I do have though is that many clubs already have a Trailer full of equipment.  I know the club we rent our equipment from is a good example of this since I have packed the trailer myself!  I can't really see that there would be room in the trailer for 18 or more gates for the Hoopers Class.  If we are down to only offering Hoopers and Barrelers, then it becomes an equipment challenge.  Maybe instead of doing away with Gaters, the class could be modified to make it more interesting and unique.  The fact that Gaters uses less different equipment than a club would already have in their trailer would make this a class that is more likely to make sense to offer...

Looking forward to having more opportunities to play EGC!
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Jean Sather (McCreight) on January 21, 2013, 10:38:35 AM
As we evaluate EGC and looks at stats and input.... it is possible that we might phase out Extreme Gaters and Extreme Chances as EGC gets merged into the regular NADAC trials.

ISharon

The biggest reason is that Extreme Chances and Extreme Gaters don't offer a lot of "difference" that can't be found in other NADAC classes on a large scale.... the gates are unique, but other than that, the tests can be found within other NADAC classes such as Chances or the other non-jumping classes.  Barrellers and Extreme Hoopers do offer challenges that cannot be found within the other NADAC classes.  That is part of the reason that they are "tougher" and take a bit more training to conquer. 

Sharon

I like the idea of reducing EGC classes to just Barrelers and X-Hoopers, for several reasons -- I agree with you Sharon about the challenges being different from other NADAC classes (and Zack and I will BOTH appreciate the addition of some hoops to Open & Elite Barrelers, and less twisty-turny and more flow in those courses!  :)  My other challenge (and I am sure I am not alone in this) is that I still have a lot of goals I want to accomplish with both dogs in the 7 other classes previously offered in NADAC.  My budget is pretty hard-pressed just to pay entry fees for those classes, without adding 2 or 4 other classes to trial offerings.  I'd love to support EVERYTHING NADAC has to offer -- and I have at least one dog who thrives on "MORE?  Bring it on!!!" -- but my finances DO have limitations!  :(
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sara9889 on January 21, 2013, 12:15:21 PM
As we evaluate EGC and looks at stats and input.... it is possible that we might phase out Extreme Gaters and Extreme Chances as EGC gets merged into the regular NADAC trials.

I know this year at champs we will only be having Extreme Hoopers and Extreme Barrelers at the Champs.  We are also going to add hoops to the Extreme Barrelers to help people from getting lost so easily in the "sea of barrels" in Open and Elite.  Barrelers works at Novice.... but it gets visually tough at Open and Elite!


Sharon


I personally would be sad to see Extreme Chances and Gaters go by the wayside. I understand and agree that some of the obstacles and some of the skills are duplicated in other NADAC classes. However, I think there are some unique differences that make these Extreme classes useful and fun, at least for Sinner and I!

I feel that Extreme Chances tests distance skills to a different level of precision than does regular Chances. I can get away with more lapses in handling in regular Chances and still have a qualifying run. If we have any “blips” in Extreme chances we are not so successful. It has really helped me become a better handler all around and specifically so for Chances. Extreme Gaters is similar, in that things happen so quickly and the standards of performance are high you have to be on your toes (and paws)!

I hope we get to keep these classes as part of the Extreme Games, whether it be as part of regular trials or just for EGC only trials.

Sara McKinley and Sinner
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 21, 2013, 12:15:37 PM
I really like the idea of introducing EGC into our Traditional Trial Format.  I think it will compliment what we are currently offering.  One concern I do have though is that many clubs already have a Trailer full of equipment.  I know the club we rent our equipment from is a good example of this since I have packed the trailer myself!  I can't really see that there would be room in the trailer for 18 or more gates for the Hoopers Class.  If we are down to only offering Hoopers and Barrelers, then it becomes an equipment challenge.  Maybe instead of doing away with Gaters, the class could be modified to make it more interesting and unique.  The fact that Gaters uses less different equipment than a club would already have in their trailer would make this a class that is more likely to make sense to offer...

Looking forward to having more opportunities to play EGC!

Then they could just offer Barrellers............ that takes minimal room!

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: TheQuestKnight on January 21, 2013, 12:42:16 PM
This post is authored by someone who has never experienced any of the EGC classes in a trial setting.  I've just seen sample courses and have set some things up in our yard for our kids and us to play with . . .

EG Barrelers (barrel racing) is unique . . .

EG Gaters has elements of Tunnelers . . .

EG Chances has elements of Chances, Hoopers and Tunnelers . . .

EG Hoopers has elements of Chances and numbered Hoopers . . .

As I've experinced things at home, EG Barrelers is FAST, FURRY-OUS, and FUN, even when we screw up the pattern . . . BADLY!  In that regard, I think Barrelers should stand alone as a barrel class . . .

I see the potential for a second class . . . perhaps called "Simply Extreme" . . . that combines elements from the other 3 EG classes . . .

Easy enough to incorporate a Chances restriction line somewhere on the course . . . with a Chances-like distance challenge, it might be possible to make the hoop & gate "corral" a bit smaller . . . more along the lines of a "Hobday Square" of hoop with 4 gates completing the octagon "corral" . . .

"Non-test" (Chances restriction line & Hoop "corral") hoops, gates and tunnels could be strategically placed to keep the challenges diverse and appropriate for the various levels.

Personally, I could see the following benefits to this two class system . . .

One, for clubs willing to try adding EGC to their trials, it eliminates the frustration of picking which 2 EG classes to add to a traditional trial . . .

Points earned in EG Gaters, Chances and Hoopers could be combined into the new "Simply Extreme" class, which I think/hope may minimize the paperwork . . .

For clubs offering "Non-Jumping Weekend Trials", those Trials could be expanded to 8 runs per day, with no more than 2 daily runs or 4 weekend runs each of Tunnelers, Touch N Go, Weavers, Hoopers, Barrelers or "Simply Extreme" . . .

IMHO, it also makes investing in EG equipment a bit more viable for very small clubs . . . 55 gallon drums are relatively easy to find . . . not sure if 32 gallon round trash cans would be acceptable (turned upside down with their handles secured in the ground with "hook shaped" stakes with no exposed points) . . . and needing fewer gates . . .

I would personally find it extremely difficult to put together a slate of classes, even with 8 runs available, from a list of 11 choices/day . . . and provide sufficient options for the "consuming public" . . .

With the numbers of hoops that are showing up in other classes, Hoopers as a class may be losing some of it's challenge . . .

At some future point in time, I could envision "Simply Extreme" evolving into the replacement for Chances because it would be testing a new set of skills at a distance . . .

I believe that the EG classes represent the future of agility training . . . THE PATH, don'cha know???

. . . but many will only come on-board kicking and screaming at first, so it needs to be introduced and incorporated in a way that encourages folks to TRY IT . . . rather than to fight it . . .

Sharon has already floated several ideas when it comes to the paths that EGC could take . . . it's really up to us to THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX ABOUT THE FUTURE the way that Sharon does . . . and to avoid "critiquing" that which may change or be eliminated . . .

Change is merely OPPORTUNITY KNOCKING . . . I fractured a couple of vertabrae in 2011 . . . there's a lot of things that I used to do that I can't do very well anymore . . . but I've found MANY new things to do!!!

Our Dred is "legally blind" in most states; but he functions quite well . . . at one point in his life, he was a very talented, highly "decorated", agility "star" . . . there's A LOT in agility that he can no longer do; but he does REALLY WELL with many aspects of EGC!!!

IMHO, if a club offers 6 traditional classes on Saturday and Sunday and 2 EGC classes, they'll maintain the entries that they would normally have with just 6 traditional classes . . . any entries in the EGC classes are a "bonus" for paying the bills/profit . . .

I and mine don't trial much anymore . . . "old fart" humans and two "DD" dogs with issues . . . and one "soon to be veteran" young dog with issues . . . but we don't want to see NADAC "stagnate" the way that I feel that many venues have, because they seem to fear change . . .

The more that we do as individuals to push our sport where it has not been before, the better it will be for those that follow behind us . . .

"To boldly go where no one has gone before" applies to agility as well . . .

Live long & prosper . . .

Al, Barb, Dred, Gael & Pelli
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Maureen deHaan on January 21, 2013, 02:19:51 PM
Sharon -

If we choose to offer 2 rounds of an event (ie: Barrelers) will it still be run as it was - no course change - just a repeat of the first course?

just want to be sure. Popping the check in the mail to you after this response so I know how many runs I want to do

Thanks!
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 21, 2013, 02:22:27 PM
This post is authored by someone who has never experienced any of the EGC classes in a trial setting.  I've just seen sample courses and have set some things up in our yard for our kids and us to play with . . .

EG Barrelers (barrel racing) is unique . . .

EG Gaters has elements of Tunnelers . . .

EG Chances has elements of Chances, Hoopers and Tunnelers . . .

EG Hoopers has elements of Chances and numbered Hoopers . . .

As I've experinced things at home, EG Barrelers is FAST, FURRY-OUS, and FUN, even when we screw up the pattern . . . BADLY!  In that regard, I think Barrelers should stand alone as a barrel class . . .

I see the potential for a second class . . . perhaps called "Simply Extreme" . . . that combines elements from the other 3 EG classes . . .

Easy enough to incorporate a Chances restriction line somewhere on the course . . . with a Chances-like distance challenge, it might be possible to make the hoop & gate "corral" a bit smaller . . . more along the lines of a "Hobday Square" of hoop with 4 gates completing the octagon "corral" . . .

"Non-test" (Chances restriction line & Hoop "corral") hoops, gates and tunnels could be strategically placed to keep the challenges diverse and appropriate for the various levels.

Personally, I could see the following benefits to this two class system . . .

One, for clubs willing to try adding EGC to their trials, it eliminates the frustration of picking which 2 EG classes to add to a traditional trial . . .

Points earned in EG Gaters, Chances and Hoopers could be combined into the new "Simply Extreme" class, which I think/hope may minimize the paperwork . . .

For clubs offering "Non-Jumping Weekend Trials", those Trials could be expanded to 8 runs per day, with no more than 2 daily runs or 4 weekend runs each of Tunnelers, Touch N Go, Weavers, Hoopers, Barrelers or "Simply Extreme" . . .

IMHO, it also makes investing in EG equipment a bit more viable for very small clubs . . . 55 gallon drums are relatively easy to find . . . not sure if 32 gallon round trash cans would be acceptable (turned upside down with their handles secured in the ground with "hook shaped" stakes with no exposed points) . . . and needing fewer gates . . .

I would personally find it extremely difficult to put together a slate of classes, even with 8 runs available, from a list of 11 choices/day . . . and provide sufficient options for the "consuming public" . . .

With the numbers of hoops that are showing up in other classes, Hoopers as a class may be losing some of it's challenge . . .

At some future point in time, I could envision "Simply Extreme" evolving into the replacement for Chances because it would be testing a new set of skills at a distance . . .

I believe that the EG classes represent the future of agility training . . . THE PATH, don'cha know???

. . . but many will only come on-board kicking and screaming at first, so it needs to be introduced and incorporated in a way that encourages folks to TRY IT . . . rather than to fight it . . .

Sharon has already floated several ideas when it comes to the paths that EGC could take . . . it's really up to us to THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX ABOUT THE FUTURE the way that Sharon does . . . and to avoid "critiquing" that which may change or be eliminated . . .

Change is merely OPPORTUNITY KNOCKING . . . I fractured a couple of vertabrae in 2011 . . . there's a lot of things that I used to do that I can't do very well anymore . . . but I've found MANY new things to do!!!

Our Dred is "legally blind" in most states; but he functions quite well . . . at one point in his life, he was a very talented, highly "decorated", agility "star" . . . there's A LOT in agility that he can no longer do; but he does REALLY WELL with many aspects of EGC!!!

IMHO, if a club offers 6 traditional classes on Saturday and Sunday and 2 EGC classes, they'll maintain the entries that they would normally have with just 6 traditional classes . . . any entries in the EGC classes are a "bonus" for paying the bills/profit . . .

I and mine don't trial much anymore . . . "old fart" humans and two "DD" dogs with issues . . . and one "soon to be veteran" young dog with issues . . . but we don't want to see NADAC "stagnate" the way that I feel that many venues have, because they seem to fear change . . .

The more that we do as individuals to push our sport where it has not been before, the better it will be for those that follow behind us . . .

"To boldly go where no one has gone before" applies to agility as well . . .

Live long & prosper . . .

Al, Barb, Dred, Gael & Pelli

Interesting input!  The Simply Extreme is very interesting.

Or some form of combining the titles and points from Gaters and Chances.

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 21, 2013, 02:23:45 PM
Sharon -

If we choose to offer 2 rounds of an event (ie: Barrelers) will it still be run as it was - no course change - just a repeat of the first course?

just want to be sure. Popping the check in the mail to you after this response so I know how many runs I want to do

Thanks!

Yes, Maureen, if there are two rounds of EGC, they are the same course run twice.

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Maureen deHaan on January 21, 2013, 02:28:13 PM
OK then - sending you a check for adding 4 runs of EGC to my Aril trial :) 

2 Barrelers on Sat and 2 Hoopers on Sunday

SO so so so so excited to be able to do this!!
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 21, 2013, 02:53:12 PM
OK then - sending you a check for adding 4 runs of EGC to my Aril trial :) 

2 Barrelers on Sat and 2 Hoopers on Sunday

SO so so so so excited to be able to do this!!

Awesome, Maureen, I think you will have fun!!

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: DeafSheltieMom on January 21, 2013, 03:28:20 PM
Our small club is deciding whether or not to add EGC to the weekend classes.  Note that there has been NO EGC offered here in Southern California, so it will be new for practically everyone who does not travel to EGC trials.   If we did offer one, it would be one game (2 rounds).  We thought we'd add Gaters, as it is a more "familiar" game to people, incorporating new and old obstacles.  That way, people can learn the "hows" of EGC without over taxing their brains...  also, it is the least taxing for the club, as we do not have any gates.  We can borrow barrels and gates from individuals in the club to run Gaters, but not enough for a full class of Hoopers.  We also felt Barrelers was a little TOO new as a first time intro to EGC. 

I personally would be sad to see Gaters and Chances go (my best and worse classes :), ironically), but I can also see the logic behind it.  I like the idea of mixing the games into one class... that may be a bit more palatable for individuals and clubs alike.  Keep the ideas coming!   I'm enjoying this discussion...

-dayle

Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 21, 2013, 04:36:48 PM
Our small club is deciding whether or not to add EGC to the weekend classes.  Note that there has been NO EGC offered here in Southern California, so it will be new for practically everyone who does not travel to EGC trials.   If we did offer one, it would be one game (2 rounds).  We thought we'd add Gaters, as it is a more "familiar" game to people, incorporating new and old obstacles.  That way, people can learn the "hows" of EGC without over taxing their brains...  also, it is the least taxing for the club, as we do not have any gates.  We can borrow barrels and gates from individuals in the club to run Gaters, but not enough for a full class of Hoopers.  We also felt Barrelers was a little TOO new as a first time intro to EGC. 

I personally would be sad to see Gaters and Chances go (my best and worse classes :), ironically), but I can also see the logic behind it.  I like the idea of mixing the games into one class... that may be a bit more palatable for individuals and clubs alike.  Keep the ideas coming!   I'm enjoying this discussion...

-dayle

I do understand people wanting to run the EGC classes that are closest to what they are already skilled in.... but that is also why we really like the ones that test new skills!

I like this discussion too!

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sheila & the Shelties on January 21, 2013, 04:44:21 PM
I would be sorry to see Extreme Gaters and Chances disappear.  We have to travel to do EGC, so they are all still new and interesting to us.  What will happen to the points we earned?

Change is not bad, but constant change leads some people into unwillingness to commit to new things as it will change again next year.
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 21, 2013, 05:00:37 PM
I would be sorry to see Extreme Gaters and Chances disappear.  We have to travel to do EGC, so they are all still new and interesting to us.  What will happen to the points we earned?

Change is not bad, but constant change leads some people into unwillingness to commit to new things as it will change again next year.

You will still see lots of them in EGC trials... maybe not so much at "mixed" trials.

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: A Jussero on January 21, 2013, 05:46:01 PM
I just actually managed to get our tiny little club (the only one within 300 miles) to try adding ECC and EGC to our June trial and now there is talk that these will go away???  We don't have enough equipment for the other two and I was happy to even get these approved as no one else has even seen these classes.  Please leave these available for at least this year.  Thank you!
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 21, 2013, 05:53:02 PM
I will leave it exactly as it is..... no worries... ignore my previous posts.

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 21, 2013, 07:40:56 PM
As we evaluate EGC and looks at stats and input.... it is possible that we might phase out Extreme Gaters and Extreme Chances as EGC gets merged into the regular NADAC trials.

I know this year at champs we will only be having Extreme Hoopers and Extreme Barrelers at the Champs.  We are also going to add hoops to the Extreme Barrelers to help people from getting lost so easily in the "sea of barrels" in Open and Elite.  Barrelers works at Novice.... but it gets visually tough at Open and Elite!


Sharon


I personally would be sad to see Extreme Chances and Gaters go by the wayside. I understand and agree that some of the obstacles and some of the skills are duplicated in other NADAC classes. However, I think there are some unique differences that make these Extreme classes useful and fun, at least for Sinner and I!

I feel that Extreme Chances tests distance skills to a different level of precision than does regular Chances. I can get away with more lapses in handling in regular Chances and still have a qualifying run. If we have any “blips” in Extreme chances we are not so successful. It has really helped me become a better handler all around and specifically so for Chances. Extreme Gaters is similar, in that things happen so quickly and the standards of performance are high you have to be on your toes (and paws)!

I hope we get to keep these classes as part of the Extreme Games, whether it be as part of regular trials or just for EGC only trials.

Sara McKinley and Sinner

They can all stay.  That is good.  I am glad that more people like them!

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Dave Worldsbesjrts Dad on January 22, 2013, 07:02:24 AM
We love Barrels just as it is however I find it a lot like Tunnels I get lost. but that is the challenge.

I  like the idea of Simply Extreme  I would like to see this really explored. It should be something completely different that all other classes.

I think the word extreme should apply to   Xspeed Xpathwoork Xdistance In other words the dog and handler living on the edge. going for broke in a safe environment.

Just my  2 cents
Title: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on January 22, 2013, 08:45:57 AM
So which classes will b offered at champs?
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: TheQuestKnight on January 22, 2013, 09:21:19 AM
I have a great deal of empathy . . . or is that sympathy? . . . for Sharon . . .

Sharon has always been an innovator that has bucked "conventional agility wisdom"; and as it involves creating new and safer ways to play the game, Sharon's mind is one very fertile and productive "field" . . .

Between traditional agility classes . . . or at least those classes that we NADACers consider "traditional" <G> and EGC, we have 11 classes to choose from . . .

Even with 12 traditional classes on a given weekend, in most cases, a minimum of 7 classes are dedicated to Regular (4), Jumpers (2) and Chances (1) . . . not much room for the non-jumping classes, especially Hoopers . . . and it's even "worse" in areas that shun the Non-Jumping Trial weekends . . . many times because entries for those trials are lower than traditional trials . . .

If a club can add 4 EGC classes to a 2-day trial, which ones does one add to build interest that will progress to a full blown EGC trial weekend???

I've been around this sport long enough to know that change is difficult; but why does it seem that the other venues don't get the "flack" about change that NADAC does??? . . . even from NADAC people???  By-and-large, exhibitors don't quit other venues because of changes that improve the safety and enjoyment of the sport . . . it seems that those changes are generally accepted with "open arms" . . . perhaps it's because NADAC instituted the changes FIRST and the others are FINALLY playing catch-up???

Is it because those exhibitors that multi-venue still consider NADAC to be the "outsider" and the venue that complicates their agility lives???  IMHO and at the risk of ruffling some feathers, that says A LOT about the inability of those "trainers" to train for new challenges . . . in other words, if our ancestors that landed on the eastern shores of the US harbored the same attitude, many of us would still be wondering what's on the other side of the Appalachian Mountains!!!

There is still one other venue that has a bunch of weird obstacles and wierd protocols in agility . . . and they still seem to do OK . . .

Personally, I would think it to be very difficult to continue to manage 2 separate programs and 11 classes under one banner, especially in areas where access to trials . . . or even access to sufficient space and video equipment dor VT trials can be difficult/cost prohibitive to obtain . . . is severely limited . . .

For as long as I can remember . . . and I do remember as far back as 1993 . . . NADAC has ALWAYS been about evaluating TEAMWORK, accuracy at speed and accuracy at a distance.  Soooooooooooooooo . . . as NADAC has evolved and the distance line has vanished from Regular, why does Regular need TWICE as many points as ANY other class for advanced awards, when Regular can be run "step for step" with one's dog, if the human is physically able to do so . . .

Chances definitely tests the accuracy at a distance foundational concept of NADAC . . . but with 40 seconds allocated for SCT, speed is definitely NOT a factor . . .         

. . . and from all that I've been able to glean over the years, with the time adjustments and the Skilled category, the only classes that truly test accuracy at speed are the ones in EGC . . .

Sharon has "fought the good fight" for agility for a long time . . . and I don't have a problem if she's content to forego "rocking the boat" one more time that may have the very real consequence of disturbing cash flow . . . which is very much a business consideration in these times . . . well, ANYTIME; but ESPECIALLY in these times . . .

I simply think that all NADAC-first exhibitors would do themselves a GREAT FAVOR by supporting change rather than "fighting" it . . .

IF, IMHO, Regular requirements for awards were the same as the other classes . . . and IF 7 classes could be chosen from the remaining 10, it would be possible to offer a 2-day trial with 2 runs of each class over the weekend.  1, 3 and 4 day trials would have a bit more "latitude" in class selections beyond that which might be the "typical" 2-DAY trial format.  Non-jumping class trials would involve those classes without jumps . . .

As I see it, the NATCH would still only require Regular, Jumpers and Chances . . . but the VERS-NATCH and All-Around could be combined into the VERS-NATCH . . .

Look folks, there are NO "easy" solutions to the seeming dilemma that NADAC has created for itself by having 2 popular programs . . . just not equally popular all over . . .

Folks pooh-poohed Tunnelers at first . . . now, it's probably the most popular traditional, non-jumping class . . .

Folks still grouse about the Hoopers class; but they don't seem to have issues with hoops here and there in the other traditional classes . . . WHY IS THAT???  ANYBODY???

Some folks still aren't too sure about Barrel Racing, NADAC style; but there seems to be broad support for a barrel replacing tightly curved tunnels . . . WHY IS THAT???  ANYBODY???

I don't want to see Sharon/NADAC take any unecessary financial risks with proposed changes . . .

OTOH, I'm more than just a bit disappointed that some individuals/clubs have chosen to be a bit "selfish" for their own wants and desires . . . and to only see the negative aspects of change . . .

As exhibitors, Sharon and NADAC give us SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much in the way of titles, awards and so forth . . .

. . . why is it that some of us are having difficulty "stepping up to plate" when Sharon and NADAC could use a little support???

Whenever we shy away from new challenges, we stop growing . . . when we stop growing, we're dead . . . even though we may still be able to breathe and eat . . .

Hugs & wags,

Al & Pelli       
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 22, 2013, 10:08:34 AM
So which classes will b offered at champs?

As soon as I get an extra hour in my life, I will publish the champs premium.

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: dogrsqr on January 22, 2013, 10:24:55 AM


Yes, I am going to work on the course design for Barrelers and get a lot more "flow" into it!!

Sharon
[/quote]

Great!  Abbey and I will both appreciate that.

Gina
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: dogrsqr on January 22, 2013, 10:48:54 AM
Pretty much any class I run with my dog measures speed and accuracy at a distance. I personally think that 40 seconds for a Chances run is too long as well.  I've seen way too many people pull out a Q spending 10 seconds redirecting their dog out to an obstacle.  I personally don't think that's the intent of Chances, but it has no affect on me and my dog.

I don't think it should be seen as being negative that people want to keep classes that they've grown to enjoy.  Why not see that as a compliment that what has been presented is great?

As a NADAC only exhibitor (ok maybe I do one trial of another venue per year) I don't think that I have to like every change that happens.  Ultimately Sharon is free to do as she likes.  Sometimes discussion can lead to a better change for all of us.  If we only blindly follow we're kind of like mindless drones.  Wouldn't that be boring!

Gina and Abbey
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: TheQuestKnight on January 22, 2013, 11:09:13 AM
. . . and as soon as you get that extra hour, hopefully Becky will have made some BBQ beef waiting . . .

. . . and you can relax with a BBQ beef sammich, some french fries . . . and a relaxing beverage . . .

Champs is in September . . . this is January . . . let the OCD folks obsess compulsively . . .

"Doctor's Orders"

Wags,

"Doc" Pellinore in OH

As soon as I get an extra hour in my life, I will publish the champs premium.

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 22, 2013, 12:02:44 PM
Pretty much any class I run with my dog measures speed and accuracy at a distance. I personally think that 40 seconds for a Chances run is too long as well.  I've seen way too many people pull out a Q spending 10 seconds redirecting their dog out to an obstacle.  I personally don't think that's the intent of Chances, but it has no affect on me and my dog.

I don't think it should be seen as being negative that people want to keep classes that they've grown to enjoy.  Why not see that as a compliment that what has been presented is great?

As a NADAC only exhibitor (ok maybe I do one trial of another venue per year) I don't think that I have to like every change that happens.  Ultimately Sharon is free to do as she likes.  Sometimes discussion can lead to a better change for all of us.  If we only blindly follow we're kind of like mindless drones.  Wouldn't that be boring!

Gina and Abbey

I hear you, and I will leave it just as it is!!

At champs there will only be Barrelers and Hoopers, but all four will stay for the weekend trials!!

Thanks and good input.

Sharon
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: TheQuestKnight on January 22, 2013, 12:07:55 PM
With all due respect, the past is the PAST . . . been there, done that . . . don't need to do it again . . .

Sharon is pushing us to IMPROVE . . . those that fight that for whatever reason display a complacency that is NOT worthy of our species . . . hell, most so-called "inferior species" LOVE being challenged to improve and get bored with "life as it has been"!!!

I'm NOT advocating "mindless drones"; but I have a REAL PROBLEM with folks that REFUSE to embrace a challenge because it takes them out of their "comfort zone" . . .

Al

Pretty much any class I run with my dog measures speed and accuracy at a distance. I personally think that 40 seconds for a Chances run is too long as well.  I've seen way too many people pull out a Q spending 10 seconds redirecting their dog out to an obstacle.  I personally don't think that's the intent of Chances, but it has no affect on me and my dog.

I don't think it should be seen as being negative that people want to keep classes that they've grown to enjoy.  Why not see that as a compliment that what has been presented is great?

As a NADAC only exhibitor (ok maybe I do one trial of another venue per year) I don't think that I have to like every change that happens.  Ultimately Sharon is free to do as she likes.  Sometimes discussion can lead to a better change for all of us.  If we only blindly follow we're kind of like mindless drones.  Wouldn't that be boring!

Gina and Abbey
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: Sheila & the Shelties on January 22, 2013, 07:42:48 PM
Change, like anything else, needs to be evaluated.  Change is not always an improvement.  Some people want to know the rules and advance in a known orderly way towards titles, and others just  want to try something new....  Nothing wrong with either attitude.  But if you are headed down one path, it's like changing horses (or dogs) in the middle of the stream.  Too many major changes eventually causes the rider jut to fall in the stream.

I like the fact that Sharon may propose a change, but also often listens to her clientele, those that enjoy doing NADAC.   We need both the people that went West, and those that stayed behind in the East.  If the rules of the road were changed ever time we got in out car to drive, I imagine it would affect people the same---some would thrive on the challenge, and at the other end of the spectrum, it would paralyze others and they would stop driving at all.

I agree with Gina in that discussion is useful and may come up with a better idea than originally proposed.

I do find interesting Al's questions about why Regular requires twice as many points as any other class to advance.
Title: Re: EGC mixed with a Traditional Trial
Post by: TheQuestKnight on January 23, 2013, 08:27:08 AM
Discussion /debate is healthy and good . . . digging in one's heels to resist change simply because it's change and MAY take them out of their comfort zone is neither discussion nor debate . . .

During my association with NADAC, NADAC has NEVER introduced changes "willy-nilly" . . . they have been discussed by the apparent "powers that be", researced and implementaion procedures outlined to permit a gradual implementation of the change(s), time to raise funds for needed new equipment (if any) and other things, such as programming, titling, etc. . . .

In all cases that I am aware of, NADAC has ALWAYS used it's FUNRaisers to test, experiment with and gather data on new ideas and concepts . . .

It is my sincere hope that Sharon will take some of her new ideas and "run with them" at FUNRaisers . . .

In most cases, it does seem that FUNRaisers hold more appeal for the "progressives" in NADAC . . . much in the way that NADAC Championships do, because there is ALWAYS a "new" challenge that must be addressed and embraced with open arms . . .

My only hope is that Sharon continues to pilot the NADAC ship "BOLDLY . . . where no one has gone before!!!"

Live long and prosper . . .

Al & Pelli