NADAC Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: VT-MIKE on March 20, 2013, 02:47:41 PM

Title: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: VT-MIKE on March 20, 2013, 02:47:41 PM

Hi All,

Could some tell me how come the Nadac Australia trials get to run most weekends under the following format of runs

Sat: 2 Reg, 2 J, 2 Tn
Sun: 2 CC, 2 Reg, Hp (numbered), Wv
Reference - http://nadacaustralia.com/Trial%20Listings.html (http://nadacaustralia.com/Trial%20Listings.html)

But most trials in the USA are formated where in america we only get 2 regular runs, 1 chances and 1 jumpers most weekends?

Sat: 2 Touch N Go, 2 Regular, Chances, Jumpers
Sun: Jumpers, Chances, 2 Regular, Weavers, Tunnelers
Reference - http://www.nadac.com/afrm/trial-calendar.asp (http://www.nadac.com/afrm/trial-calendar.asp)

The questions arising are:
1)is there a different NATCH qualifications? They must be get the Natch faster.
2)Why can't USA trials consist of more of the 2reg x 2jumper x 2chances format on the weekends Sat/Sun more, leaving the Friday/Monday (3day trial runs) with more the 2wv, 2 hp, 2 touch & go, 2 tunnelers. It could be just a one day thing of 2 X 2 X 2 +1.
3)Could at least the the 2 jumpers be considered more in the USA?   

Comment: Lastly really liking the NADAC layout of the Australian site - if someone is ever considering a revamping of the American site this would really be the way a nice way to go. It is much simpler in whole.

Kind Regards,
VT- MIKE
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Sharon Nelson on March 20, 2013, 04:01:59 PM
I am totally lost and don't understand the question.  Both format have 2 Chances, 4 Regular, 2 Jumpers and 4 non-jumping classes.  Since I approve all trial applications, including the US, Canada and Australia...... Australia doesn't offer (and aren't allowed to offer) anything different than US trials.

There are rules regarding trials.  On a two day weekend there is a maximum of 4 Regular, and 2 of any other class that can be offered.  No more than 4 classes with jumps may be offered on a day.  Many US clubs choose to offer 1 Chances, 2 Reg, and 1 Jumpers per day (except Funraisers and we offer 2 Chances on one day and 2 Jumpers on the other day)......... Clubs will offer the format that their competitors want.  If you would like a different format, maybe you could contact your local clubs and give them some input for a different format of class offerings (as long as you stay within the guidelines).

It is each club's choice as to which classes are offered within those guidelines.  I really don't find anything "different" regarding the classes being offered at the Australian trials. 

They have the exact same titles and awards as "USA" NADAC........... NADAC is NADAC, there are no "other" sets of rules for Australia.

Both of the formats you listed have 4 rounds of Regular, 2 rounds of Jumpers, and 2 rounds of Chances so I wonder how one could think that Australians could earn a NATCH faster?

Maybe I missed something, but I don't understand the question.

Sharon


Hi All,

Could some tell me how come the Nadac Australia trials get to run most weekends under the following format of runs

Sat: 2 Reg, 2 J, 2 Tn
Sun: 2 CC, 2 Reg, Hp (numbered), Wv
Reference - http://nadacaustralia.com/Trial%20Listings.html (http://nadacaustralia.com/Trial%20Listings.html)

But most trials in the USA are formated where in america we only get 2 regular runs, 1 chances and 1 jumpers most weekends?

Sat: 2 Touch N Go, 2 Regular, Chances, Jumpers
Sun: Jumpers, Chances, 2 Regular, Weavers, Tunnelers
Reference - http://www.nadac.com/afrm/trial-calendar.asp (http://www.nadac.com/afrm/trial-calendar.asp)

The questions arising are:
1)is there a different NATCH qualifications? They must be get the Natch faster.
2)Why can't USA trials consist of more of the 2reg x 2jumper x 2chances format on the weekends Sat/Sun more, leaving the Friday/Monday (3day trial runs) with more the 2wv, 2 hp, 2 touch & go, 2 tunnelers. It could be just a one day thing of 2 X 2 X 2 +1.
3)Could at least the the 2 jumpers be considered more in the USA?   

Comment: Lastly really liking the NADAC layout of the Australian site - if someone is ever considering a revamping of the American site this would really be the way a nice way to go. It is much simpler in whole.

Kind Regards,
VT- MIKE
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Jeff Lyons on March 20, 2013, 04:33:50 PM
Most NADAC USA trials that I have seen are formatted with 2 Regular, 1 Jumpers and 1 Chances PER DAY (plus 2 non jumping classes).  So normally in a 2-day weekend, just like in Australia, you have 4 Reg, 2 Jumpers, 2 CC.  Perhaps some clubs want to create an incentive for people to enter both days, so they will spread out Chances and Jumpers, rather than put them all on one day. 

Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Shirlene Clark on March 20, 2013, 04:45:47 PM
Hi VT-Mike,

Sharon is correct....NADAC is NADAC whether it is here in Australia or in the USA or in Canada.

I facilitate the NADAC program in Australia and work very closely with Sharon and the NADAC Office and I can assure we have no "special" rules under which we run NADAC in Australia.  We are still relatively small in critical mass size and I attend every trial that is run in Australia so probably the trials here closely resemble fun-raisers in North America to some extent.  As such we can "test" things like they are tested at fun-raisers.  For example this year we are running a lot of beta trial format testing and we also tested containerised trials very early on.

My attendance at every trial gives me a good indication of what exhibitors want in regards to trial formats and as I personally run the vast majority of trials I can ensure that the mix of classes are well balanced.  I agree with what Sharon said, if you have suggestions for a trial format let your club know.  If it falls within the guidelines and the club agrees that's great :)

I don't believe Australian teams achieve NATCH's any faster than teams in North America.  Indeed our "youth in NADAC" is apparent as we have very few mutliple NATCH teams.  Those that have achieved them probably didn't earn them any faster and certainly earnt them under the same rules :)

Thank you for the compliment re our web site I put a lot or work into it and am still tweaking it on the fly :)  For us our Australian web site is a means of providing some local relevance and information.   Our web site is probably more akin to a local club site.   It was intended to compliment the Offical NADAC web site not replace it :)  I do thank you for the compliment though as I have been self teaching myself how to build it not having any knowledge of how to do it in the beginning :)

I have to say it is wonderful to be part of such a great International group...where Americans, Canadians and Australians on any given weekend are enjoying NADAC under the same rules, on the same courses, facing the same challenges and celebrating the same successes.  How great is this sport ?

I work closely with Sharon ...our Judges work closely with North American Judges and our competitors enjoy all the same highs and lows and rules as you :)



Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: VT-MIKE on March 20, 2013, 05:45:39 PM
Hi Shirlene,

It was really nice to read your comments and it's great to hear your so involved.
I posted a secondary follow up and did not get to read your comments first so please take note and be understanding. Nadac in the upper northeast is resembling your Australian runs greatly from the looks of it. It's getting late here in Vermont and I'm headed to the TV. I will return with more opening up of this discussion I'm sure.

Kind Regards,

VT-Mike
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Sharon Nelson on March 20, 2013, 06:26:01 PM
Hi Shirlene,

It was really nice to read your comments and it's great to hear your so involved.
I posted a secondary follow up and did not get to read your comments first so please take note and be understanding. Nadac in the upper northeast is resembling your Australian runs greatly from the looks of it. It's getting late here in Vermont and I'm headed to the TV. I will return with more opening up of this discussion I'm sure.

Kind Regards,

VT-Mike

if you made another post, Mike, it didn't come through.

Sharon
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: VT-MIKE on March 20, 2013, 08:34:55 PM
Hi Sharon,

Yes i had made another post. Too bad it did not come though it said had alot in detail.
In gest it is kinda summerized below:

Mostly the way Austrailian Format does the runs it is better for the exihitor cost wise to go for a NATCH.

The US way the trials are formated it is for the club to make as much money as it can while extending the trial same NATCH runs into the two weekend days.

Kind Regards,

VT-MIKE
 
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Sharon Nelson on March 20, 2013, 08:37:01 PM
I would love an explanation of that...... Australians also spread the classes over two days, exactly like all Funraisers.  You must attend both days in order to earn Chances, Jumpers and Regular points.

Sharon

Hi Sharon,

Yes i had made another post. Too bad it did not come though it said had alot in detail.
In gest it is kinda summerized below:

Mostly the way Austrailian Format does the runs it is better for the exihitor cost wise to go for a NATCH.

The US way the trials are formated it is for the club to make as much money as it can while extending the trial same NATCH runs into the two weekend days.

Kind Regards,

VT-MIKE
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Maureen deHaan on March 21, 2013, 03:13:50 AM
Mike,

As someone who hosts trial here in the Northeast (NY) I will try to give you a little perspective from MY point of view. Trials in the northeast are very VERY small. We need to offer a format that will draw competitors for both days of a trial - competitors who will ENJOY the format and want to return. We need to offer something for EVERYONE not just those who only want a NATCH as fast as they can get it for as cheaply as they can. For MOST people agility is not only about getting the NATCH it is about enjoying a weekend of recreation with their dogs and their friends.

Personally, at the trials *I* host, I offer ONE of each event each day - That way I can serve ALL my competitors at all levels and everyone is happy and gets to play agility all day long. Most people travel to trials and spend the weekend - they are not lucky enough to live close to a trial site - I for example generally travel 2-3 hours minimum to the trials attend.

 I know MANY people, including myself who do not like the 2,2,2 format (ie: 2 Reg, 2 TN, 2 CC or whatever combo you choose) b/c some of us have dogs who do not play ALL the events and therefore those dogs are not served - these people generally SKIP trials under that format -why travel that far to only play agility for one day?? - ( I personally don't b/c my younger dog plays all the events and  my older dog does not does not travel with me much anymore  b/c she is pretty much retired from agility )

 I serve the masses, NOT the Elite only competitors. 

Also, I kind of take offense to your comment about we in the Northeast trying to make as much $ as possible - First of all - I am not sure you really understand what is actually COSTS to hold a trial - The site costs $ and the indoor sites are at least DOUBLE what we pay for outdoor sites, The porta potty costs $, we have to pay our judges and ALL of their travel expenses, we have to pay OUR travel expenses, we have to pay NADAC before and after the trial for trial application fees and recording fees, we have to pay for Equipment rental and/or equipment maintenance, purchasing new up to date equipment that is safe, we have to pay a trial secretary , we have to spend $ for worker snacks, shade tents, volunteer raffles, ribbons don't forget the ribbons!  A NATCH ribbon alone costs around $20 - yearly ribbon budget is about $1000 depending on how many trials a *club* hosts .... We all also offer generous entry discounts to help people be able to enter - that is also taking $$ away from our profit - we don't care - we just want to be able to host a trial!

Generally we clear MAYBE $500 and lay out THOUSANDS.  I have actually had trials where I haven't made a single dollar profit.

So, yes when you say we use a format that will make us money you are partially right, but in reality we use a format that will BRING PEOPLE so we can AFFORD to have the trial where everyone can come a play.

 FYI - I am not a "club" - nor are the *other* northeast clubs (the other 2 that come to mind -who hold the most trials)   - we do not collect dues each year - we do not have a membership base- we pay for the trials based on what they bring in - and if people do not come - then we can't host trials -

We need to offer what will make ALL of our customers happy and want to return - that is the bottom line.

Hope that helps clear things up for you

Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: dogrsqr on March 21, 2013, 03:48:46 AM
I'm guessing Mike is referring to the 2 Jumpers on one day, 2 Chances on one day. 

It is totally up to the clubs to choose which classes to run each day with some minimal rules by NADAC.  Some clubs in the US do offer 2 Chances one day and 2 Jumpers one day.  Most of us choose to run the more "traditional"  2 Regular, 1 Chances and 1 Jumpers each day with the other classes spread out thru the 2 days.  I like it that way because some people do have to work on the weekends and don't get to pick which day they can run agility.

All teams are different, some actually need regular to finish their NATCH (that's usually my downfall).  You'll never satisfy everyone, but  I think most clubs try to run the classes how the majority of their local exhibitors like it.  We usually try to mix up the order as much as possible too running Jumpers 1st one day and last the other etc.

Gina Pizzo
In Minnesota
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Erin Wajda on March 21, 2013, 05:12:52 AM

The US way the trials are formated it is for the club to make as much money as it can while extending the trial same NATCH runs into the two weekend days.


Okay, now I have to reply here.  As a "club" that offers trials that you attend I have to say that we are certainly not in it to make money.  If making money was the goal then I would have stopped putting on trials YEARS ago.  Yes, I am always trying to come up with ways to get more entries and reach the most people, not so that we can make more money, but so that we can survive long enough to offer another fun trial.  And I have to say, I think that we do a lot with next to nothing.

I have always thought of trialing as a fun weekend to get together with friends and have fun with my dogs.  If I earn points towards an award, well that is a fantastic bonus.  If it is now all about what "you" personally need to get a NATCH and not about coming together to support each other so that we can all play this fun game of agility then we will not survive.
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Dave Worldsbesjrts Dad on March 21, 2013, 09:17:16 AM
 I can see what he is saying.  My plan for my dogs and my wallet. Is to run all the Reg, Chances and Jumpers I can and as little of the other.  My feeling is that after the first Natch if we get there and as the dogs get older we will do more of the non jumping classes and less of the other. Again this is to save $$$ not because I do not like all the stuff.  So it comes down to Fun VS Funds

Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Nancy H on March 21, 2013, 09:36:02 AM
Well said Erin, and I for one, am very glad and appreciative for all the clubs that offer NADAC agility across New England. I know that the trials have gotten smaller over the years that I have been trialing, and I am very happy for all that the clubs have done to keep NADAC alive in New England!

Nancy and Stewie JRT in New Hampshire
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Maureen deHaan on March 21, 2013, 10:05:15 AM
Trials are not held JUST for people to "get a NATCH" - They are held for ALL people and dogs of ALL ability levels to come and play agility with their dogs and their friends -

When people who do not host trials make  statements about those of us who do, saying that we do it only to make as much money as we can - it is offensive. We work our butts off before, during and after we host trials and people seem to think that we are raking in the $$ - well we are not...

Again, we serve the masses NOT just the elite teams.

Additionally,  it is generally these same people who sit back at trials and WATCH while the rest of us bust our butts all day and don't volunteer to help out...but that is a whole other gripe.

I really don't know where this sense of entitlement has come from , but it is in poor form.
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: dogrsqr on March 21, 2013, 10:39:40 AM
I can see what he is saying.  My plan for my dogs and my wallet. Is to run all the Reg, Chances and Jumpers I can and as little of the other.  My feeling is that after the first Natch if we get there and as the dogs get older we will do more of the non jumping classes and less of the other. Again this is to save $$$ not because I do not like all the stuff.  So it comes down to Fun VS Funds



I can see what he is saying.  My plan for my dogs and my wallet. Is to run all the Reg, Chances and Jumpers I can and as little of the other.  My feeling is that after the first Natch if we get there and as the dogs get older we will do more of the non jumping classes and less of the other. Again this is to save $$$ not because I do not like all the stuff.  So it comes down to Fun VS Funds



And you can do that, you just might have to trial two days to get all the opportunities available.  I personally think that is another good reason not to have double Chances or double Jumpers on one day.  It give everyone more options. 

Yes we are trying to get as many people to come as possible, doesn't that make sense?  BUT I'm also trying to give EVERYONE the opportunities to run the classes that they want to run.

Gina Pizzo
In Minnesota
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Sharon Nelson on March 21, 2013, 11:34:47 AM
Well, Mike, I don't agree with your figures, but that is okay.  For the first NATCH, one needs 23 Regular, 13 Jumpers, and 13 Chances and for the second and further NATCHes require 20 Regular, 10 Jumpers and 10 Chances.  If you are referring to a first NATCH and doing one day trialing with double runs, then you must attend 7 one day trials that offer Chances and 7 one day trials that offer Jumpers in order to earn that first NATCH.  That is, if everything is perfect and you have one Q left over for the next NATCH.

If you are on your 2nd or subsequent NATCH, then it would take 5 one day trials with Chances and 5 one day trials with Jumpers in the "perfect" qualifying world.  So it would take 14 one day trials for the first NATCH and 10 one day trials for the subsequent NATCHes.

On two days trials it would take 7 two days trials, just like it would take 14 one day trials for the first NATCH.  For the subsequent NATCHes it would take 5 two day trials or 10 one day trials.

The bottom line is that this is personal.............. the figures that you give are the expenses for YOU when you choose between 1 day or 2 day trials.  Many, many others can give a spreadsheet where a two day format is WAY cheaper than single one day trials.  So the "cost" is strictly a personal choice on where you live, how far it is to a trial and your personal expenses for traveling to a trial.   

Every individual has their own personal and financial choices.

You might want to go back to older posts and read about the reaction of "double" runs in the US.  We still do it at funraisers and we still occasionally get flack from it........... in Australia they don't know "other" formats, so they are open minded and accept the formats.

When there are the double runs in Australia, the same course is run twice.  At the Funraisers, the same course is run twice.  But the majority of competitors in the US want the "known" format and not anything "new" and there was a lot of posts and conversations about how good or how horrible that format is.  For the Australians they didn't have the 20 years of the same format and then be offered something different......... change or anything new is difficult.  In Australia, NADAC is still quite new, so changing the format to double runs works.... less course changes, less walk-throughs, faster trials.  But in Australia, Shirlene and Wendy are doing the vast majority of the work..... loading and hauling the equipment to every trial, setting up the ring, running the trial and tearing down and hauling everything back.  So a few less course builds and a few less walk-throughs make a huge difference in the work load.

The "costs" are different for every person and you gave your costs, but that also changes for every competitor.  On either format, it takes the same number of trial days.  And of course, we have been talking about a 100% qualifying team.  That is not likely......... and that starts to change everything, depending on what Q's are needed if one's goal is it earn a NATCH.  You could get down to just needing a Jumpers and if the double Jumpers don't fall into the days that are available for you to take off for that trial day, it could get pretty frustrating.

Everyone has different goals, different finances, and different perspectives.

But NADAC is NADAC, whether it is the USA, Canada or Australia.   It takes the same Q's and the same number of opportunities to earn the exact same titles and awards.

Sharon
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: agilityjunkie on March 21, 2013, 11:42:30 AM
Agility Junkies format for our last two indoor trials has been Sat: 2 Chances 2 Regular 1 TNG and 1 Tunnelers - Sun: 2 Jumpers 2 Reg 1 Weavers and 1 Tunnelers. This format closely resembles the one used in Australia and had nothing to do with anyone's NATCH requirements. It had more to do with our need as a club of middle aged people to finish early on Sunday and have less equipment to load in the truck at the end of the day!!
It's working, too!
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: AndreaL on March 21, 2013, 11:55:43 AM

Could some tell me how come the Nadac Australia trials get to run most weekends under the following format of runs

Sat: 2 Reg, 2 J, 2 Tn
Sun: 2 CC, 2 Reg, Hp (numbered), Wv

2)Why can't USA trials consist of more of the 2reg x 2jumper x 2chances format on the weekends Sat/Sun more, leaving the Friday/Monday (3day trial runs) with more the 2wv, 2 hp, 2 touch & go, 2 tunnelers. It could be just a one day thing of 2 X 2 X 2 +1.


Hi Mike,

I'm wondering based on the quotes above if you might have misread, and that might be leading to the confusion.  I don't think anyone is running a "2reg x 2jumper x 2chances format" - the trials you have indicated have:

Sat: 2 Reg, 2 J, 2 Tn (no chances)
Sun: 2 CC, 2 Reg, Hp (numbered), Wv (no Jumpers)

They aren't running all the NATCH classes on the same day - you would still have to trial both days to be able to attempt all the available Reg, Chances, and Jumpers classes.
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: mephalon on March 21, 2013, 12:21:48 PM
Here's a different perspective-  I appreciate the clubs who offer a variety of classes each of the days.   I am not going for my NATCH but still love to trial with my dog.   Very rarely will I attend a 2/2/2 format trial simply because there is not enough variety for me.   I tend to avoid the classes with weaves so if the trial offers 2R/2W/2X it is simply not enough incentive for me to spend my money and time at that trial.   

I also host trials so I know how much work there is with the extra course building each day.   However by offering the variety of classes you reach a bigger audience since people have more to choose from.   It has nothing to do with stretching out how long it takes someone to get a NATCH so we get more entry fees.   I can honestly say that has NEVER come into play with how we set our class schedule.   It is simply about creating the most opportunities for EVERYONE (not just the NATCH worthy) to play. 

Mary
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Kelly Wise on March 21, 2013, 01:39:35 PM
Hi Mike

Here is someone else's thoughts.

I trial in Australia on what has become more of a regular basis as my knowledge and teamwork has gain more experience. I have blown plenty of run and had a great time doing it with my agility team mate and will continue to.
 To be perfectly honest the word Natch has very really entered my mind. Other words such as Fun, Enjoyment and Team work do quite often.

It is great to see that other people in the world are interested in how Nadac is run in Australia though.  :D
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Jeff Lyons on March 21, 2013, 01:55:20 PM
Hi Mike,

I think you may have misinterpreted what I said about "incentives to enter both days" as a financial incentive for the club.  No doubt, most clubs want to attract as many exhibitors as possible to offset costs, since putting on a trial is not cheap.  In order to do that, they need to appeal to the needs of the many, rather than the needs of the few (including people who can come one day, or both days).  In order to do that, a club needs to have some incentive for people to come BOTH days.  That is all.  There is nothing greedy about it.  I don't know of anybody getting rich putting on trials.  In every area of the country, clubs try to fit the needs of their exhibitors.  If somebody works Saturdays, and their local club was offering 2 Reg 2 CC on Saturdays and 2 Reg and 2 Jumpers on Sunday, that person is going to have a tough time getting their Chances requirement for their NATCh.  So, by spreading out the incentive to both days, the club appeals to a broader audience. 
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Shirlene Clark on March 21, 2013, 02:58:11 PM
in Australia they don't know "other" formats, so they are open minded and accept the formats.

When there are the double runs in Australia, the same course is run twice.  At the Funraisers, the same course is run twice.  But the majority of competitors in the US want the "known" format and not anything "new" and there was a lot of posts and conversations about how good or how horrible that format is.  For the Australians they didn't have the 20 years of the same format and then be offered something different......... change or anything new is difficult.  In Australia, NADAC is still quite new, so changing the format to double runs works.... less course changes, less walk-throughs, faster trials.  But in Australia, Shirlene and Wendy are doing the vast majority of the work..... loading and hauling the equipment to every trial, setting up the ring, running the trial and tearing down and hauling everything back.  So a few less course builds and a few less walk-throughs make a huge difference in the work load.

Sharon

I certainly have found our exhibitors here to be as a whole group pretty receptive and open minded about most things and I agree I do think that it is largely due to our NADAC youth.

The double runs have been a bit of a life saver for Wendy and I.  It is true that as 2 individuals we have a huge physical workload packing and hauling to every single trial.  We may be young in NADAC years but in actually human years the 2 of us are not getting any younger and I had very real concerns that we would physically burn out.  The double run format has taken some of that physical load off and that is good for us and the NADAC program in Australia.

The other benefit for us is "time".  The trial season in Australia is mainly in the winter months and predominately outdoors.  The race against daylight hours has always been a biggie for us here.  Double run formats give us extra daylight hours...takes a little pressure off and makes for a more enjoyable day.

We don't run all double run formats all of the time....but when we do it works for us :)
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: TheQuestKnight on March 21, 2013, 05:22:10 PM
Hi . . . old fart with experience here . . .

I've been around this game for more years and in more capacities than I really care to remember . . .

If ANYONE is hosting trials with the idea of getting "rich" in the process, they need to go back to school, consult with some financial folks . . . and develop a MUCH MORE realistic financial plan to attain those goals!

Hosts try their best to please their exhibitor base while taking into account available trial sites, weather, COSTS . . . all of that stuff like that there . . .

For various reasons, my two old fart dogs . . . and one younger old fart dog . . . just do a very limited array of classes . . .

NOBODY is going to get "rich" over our meager entries . . .

Our closest trial is 3.5 hours distant one-way . . . others, that we're willing to consider . . . are up to 9 hours distant, one-way . . . so if it's one or two days, the only real difference is one night in a motel and the attendant meals . . . and we and ours like to eat!!! <VBG>

Since our preferred class is Tunnelers, since all of our dogs can do it . . . 2 Tunnelers on one day . . . or non-jumping trials with the potential of 3-4 Tunnelers runs in the span of two days . . . is our "preferred choice"; but it's NOT the choice of the vast majority of NADAC exhibitors that partake of ALL class offerings . . .

Look folks, EVERYONE is just trying to survive and HAVE FUN in a challenging economic environment . . .

We're NOT "chasing" awards or titles . . . we're just looking to have some FUN with our dogs . . . nothing more, nothing less . . .

. . . and, I guess, that with experience, we're willing to pay for the privilege of doing nothing more than HAVING FUN with "our kids"!!!

Each to his or her own; but don't stress over your choices . . . make your choices and go have fun . . .

Al & Pelli in Ohio   
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Lin Battaglia on March 21, 2013, 09:04:48 PM
Thanks for speaking up everyone. I am offended too by some of the comments. We mdt-AA has been putting on agility trials for 20+ years. Out west we have the same probelms. Guess it's the nature of the beast. The same people sit in their chairs and complain, letting only a few to do all the work. They don't step up and say "what can I do to help you". They have no idea what it takes. We too are not a club and we're not raking in the money. Rarely do we clear $200-500. So we're always in the hole. I teach so we can put ontrials. We have insurance that seems to go up every year (with no claims), a trailer that has to be licenced and insured (new tirers/shocks), equipment to keep up to date and in good repair, ribbons to buy, hospitality food to offer, raffle gifts, free entries for the committee workers, airfares, hotels and meals for judges, property/venue rentals, NADAC apllication fees, NADAC recording fees/scores, ....etc. etc. Just to put on a trial takes about $2000 months ahead of time. Yet when gas went up, we lowered our entry fees to help everyone out. Everyone gets the same low discounted $10 runs, not just those who do 12 runs divided among their 3-4 dogs. The format we offer is the USA usual and what works for us. So everyone who drives 1/2 an hour to three hours usually can get the most for their effort to attend our trials. Not just show up on Saturday and not come back for Sunday. We appreicate the support we get. Many people have their own agenda and want only what works for them personally.... they have no regard for the other participants as a whole or the club/business putting on the trial. Why do some feel entitled to what they want? We are all struggling across the country to kept playing the sport with we love with the dogs we love. I commend you all. Keep up the good work and have fun! We'll all get thru these trying times.

We would hate to quit. 
LinB
mdt-AA
Nevada   
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: VT-MIKE on March 22, 2013, 04:51:03 AM
Hi Sharon,

Can you please call me when you get a chance 802-591-0418.

Mike
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on March 22, 2013, 07:31:28 AM
I run 3 dogs in agility.  For 2 of them I usually do all of the events all of the time.  The third does limited events, mostly tunnelers.  If there are 2 tunnelers on 1 day, then she is likely to sit in her crate all day of the day without the tunnelers runs.  Sometimes I might I simply enter her into an event that other day and let her have fun with it.  It all depends on my $$ situation at the time.  Most clubs also have 2X tunnelers runs in one weekend and only 1X weavers or TNG.  I personally would like to see more of the TNG and weavers runs, but I understand why clubs do 2X tunnelers.  Novice handlers tend to start in that event or are at least more successful in that event.  I know I did.  It is a fun event and low stress for the dogs and handlers both.  It gets the Novice started so they can begin to enjoy the fun of agility.  So whatever the format, if I am available and want to trial that weekend, I do.  My dogs don't really care as long as they can go and play.  Yes, they have their favorite events, but they don't know what they are running until they are out on the course anyway. 
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Dave Worldsbesjrts Dad on March 22, 2013, 09:19:28 AM
I hope no one  thinks people run trails for a profit.  I hope people help work when they can.  as I said I chose not to run some runs to save money but I do not expect trails to be set up they way I want them.  I did not even know that NADAC tried to do the same run twice. I like it in the Xtreems games. 
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: BetsieCorwin on March 22, 2013, 12:58:26 PM
Holy Smoke!  This topic has gotten a lot of action.  :)  It never occurred to me that another locale might split the runs up differently like in Australia.  I lost count of the times over the years I muttered as we walked off the course.  "Boy, I sure would like another chance to try Chances today."  But then again, I would want 2 Chance EACH day, not just one.  Chances was always the hardest class for my Sophie who is now retired. She was often close and a second opportunity would have been fun. 

I always love the Games only trial that happens once a year in our area. Just like Al's dogs, my Sophie and Snickers always had a blast in Tunnelers, but Sophie HATED Weavers.  Just wasn't her thing.  What would have been my preference for Sophie and Snickers is far different from my young Novice (almost Open) dog Dazzle.  Dazzle loves to weave. I'm sure if she had her way, she would like to run Weavers 4 times a day. We all know that won't happen.   Until Sharon showed the math, I never thought much about how many trials it would take to get a NATCH.  Assuming of course, you Q'd every run, which even the best teams don't. 

Tunnelers is most often run on Sundays out here which works nicely for me because I sometimes have other committments on Saturdays.  We've entered the trial next month in Central Pt., OR. I was hoping Dazzle would finish her Novice Superior in a couple of classes so we could move up to Open at the OR trial.  I checked over the premiums carefully this month knowing my pocketbook only allowed so many agility days.  I was happy that the classes we needed a few more points in happened to be on Sunday. Yahoo!  But that doesn't mean we'll Q.  We'll have fun no matter what, and probably end up E-ing at least 1 run if Dazzle needs training with her start line stay. 

Thanks to Lin, Jeff and other for their comments on "profit" or lack thereof.  I know that clubs work very hard and depend on volunteers to pitch in to make it all happen.  No one is getting rich putting agility trials.  I will say that I was educated early on to volunteer at trials.  I think you might look around my house and see it is decorated in NADAC Raffle style.  Just had my coffee this morning in a cute mug I won at a trial last weekend. 

Betsie Corwin
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Sharon Nelson on March 22, 2013, 02:43:13 PM
Hi Sharon,

Can you please call me when you get a chance 802-591-0418.

Mike

Sorry, but no.  I don't use phones and I wouldn't even know where mine is.  Probably in my car needing charging because it is dead.  I communicate via email, forum and lists.  You could ask Becky, she is the one that uses a phone.  I don't

Sharon
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Anne Etherton on March 22, 2013, 03:34:55 PM
I tend to agree with Maureen.  Our "club" is much like hers.  Just a group of NADAC oriented people who wanted more trials in the area.  We try to keep entry fees as low as possible while covering expenses.  We usually follow the format of 2 regular 1 jumpers, 1 chances each day and one non-jumping class each day.  In April we will try two non-jumping classes each day. 

Anne
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Lisa - CT on March 22, 2013, 05:52:17 PM
Hello, after reading the comments from where it started, I think Mike is being misunderstood. Did he articulate his thoughts well? I would say no, but I do know that Mike and his wife very much love the sport of agility. Do they have goals? yes! And there is absolutely nothing wrong with having goals. To say that he is in it solely for the NATCH is off base, even though the way he wrote it sounded like it. Again he does not articulate well. I would say about 97% of the competitors have goals. When I attend trials, I engage in and over hear peoples conversations about the latest title they earned or what they need to get the next title etc etc. So Mike is not a rare breed here. After all part of the fun is the success and the other part comes from the heart and the love of our dogs.

Also to "insinuate" that Mike does not volunteer at trials offends me. At the last New Years Eve trial in RI, I saw him work just about every class. I also see him work at other trials, so to make such comment is off base too. I know people who REFUSE to volunteer at some trials because club members were very rude. Keep in mind if you want workers, kindness goes a long way.

Thanks for listening

Lisa
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Sharon Nelson on March 22, 2013, 06:57:45 PM
Hello, after reading the comments from where it started, I think Mike is being misunderstood. Did he articulate his thoughts well? I would say no, but I do know that Mike and his wife very much love the sport of agility. Do they have goals? yes! And there is absolutely nothing wrong with having goals. To say that he is in it solely for the NATCH is off base, even though the way he wrote it sounded like it. Again he does not articulate well. I would say about 97% of the competitors have goals. When I attend trials, I engage in and over hear peoples conversations about the latest title they earned or what they need to get the next title etc etc. So Mike is not a rare breed here. After all part of the fun is the success and the other part comes from the heart and the love of our dogs.

Also to "insinuate" that Mike does not volunteer at trials offends me. At the last New Years Eve trial in RI, I saw him work just about every class. I also see him work at other trials, so to make such comment is off base too. I know people who REFUSE to volunteer at some trials because club members were very rude. Keep in mind if you want workers, kindness goes a long way.

Thanks for listening

Lisa

Thank you, Lisa.  I think many more feel the same as you.  Mike and his wife have been doing this sport for a long time and have always had a good time.

I am goal oriented also.... I do not feel a quick need for gratification, but I do expect to complete my goals or I need to re-evaluate my goals along the way!

I do think that Mike tried to ask a question and didn't quite word it the way that would be an inquiry as opposed to an accusation, which is how many took it.  I do not think that Mike was trying to be negative against any club or individual.  He would just like to see more trials where he could attend for one day instead of two days.  Many of us are feeling the need to make those financial decisions as the economy tightens!!

We need to let this go and let go and any negativity and move forward in a positive light that agility brings to us!

Hug your dogs and your family!!

Sharon
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: VT-MIKE on March 23, 2013, 01:47:59 AM
Thank you Lisa & Sharon - the last two posting are - RIGHT ON.

Kind Regards,

MIKE
Title: Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
Post by: Roger Coor on March 26, 2013, 12:52:15 PM
  What is amazing in a good way is that classes at trials vary considerably both in what is offered for the weekend, what is offered for each day and the order of the classes at each trial.  Within certain limits, NADAC really does allow a lot of diveresity.  If anyone wants different classes and different order of classes for a given day at the trials attended, then speak up to the people in the club that make those choices.  Like all things, the more one helps with a trial, the more likely that person's voice will have some weight.