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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: mephalon on October 26, 2013, 03:02:06 PM

Title: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: mephalon on October 26, 2013, 03:02:06 PM
Do I have to run my 8 1/2 year old dog as a vet even though I already run her as skilled?  I thought as long as I was taking a 4" height break it was ok whether it was skilled or vet. 

Can someone clarify please.

Mary
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 26, 2013, 09:49:25 PM
Do I have to run my 8 1/2 year old dog as a vet even though I already run her as skilled?  I thought as long as I was taking a 4" height break it was ok whether it was skilled or vet. 

Can someone clarify please.

Mary

They will have to use the Veteran's division on their 9th birthday and both Skilled AND Veterans on their 12th birthday.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: mephalon on October 27, 2013, 03:24:28 AM
So even though I already run skilled when she is 9 I also have to enter her as a vet which is the same requirement (skilled/vet) as when she is 12?



Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Carole & Pat Daggett on October 27, 2013, 07:55:38 PM
Hi Mary,

As Sharon said, when your dog become 9 you must enter her as a Vet, and if your goal was to jump her 4" lower, you would enter her as a Proficient Vet.  Your dog's current jump height would not change (since she is in Skilled now), but you would have to take her out of Skilled unless you wanted to jump her 8" lower, as you would have to if she were age 12.  The requirement is for her to enter the Veteran Division at 9, so taking a 4" height break by putting her in Skilled does not meet that requirement.  I think that may be where the confusion lies - the rule is not that you have to take a 4" reduction in height when she becomes 9, but that she must be entered as a Vet.  Your choice is then whether to put her in Proficient or Skilled.  Remember that your Skilled and Proficient points are combined, so you would not "lose" any points by moving her to Proficient Vet, if that is the choice that you ultimately make.  Hope that explanation helps.

Carole Daggett
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 27, 2013, 10:54:04 PM
Hi Mary,

As Sharon said, when your dog become 9 you must enter her as a Vet, and if your goal was to jump her 4" lower, you would enter her as a Proficient Vet.  Your dog's current jump height would not change (since she is in Skilled now), but you would have to take her out of Skilled unless you wanted to jump her 8" lower, as you would have to if she were age 12.  The requirement is for her to enter the Veteran Division at 9, so taking a 4" height break by putting her in Skilled does not meet that requirement.  I think that may be where the confusion lies - the rule is not that you have to take a 4" reduction in height when she becomes 9, but that she must be entered as a Vet.  Your choice is then whether to put her in Proficient or Skilled.  Remember that your Skilled and Proficient points are combined, so you would not "lose" any points by moving her to Proficient Vet, if that is the choice that you ultimately make.  Hope that explanation helps.

Carole Daggett

Great answer, Carole.  Well done and thanks for taking the time to answer.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: mephalon on October 28, 2013, 03:43:31 AM
Thanks for the explanation.  Does a proficient vet get the same time as skilled? 
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: fbrazeil on October 28, 2013, 06:03:00 AM
Okay, let me add another wrinkle to this. My dog will turn nine tomorrow. We have always run as proficient, Vet Handler. Not exactly sure how to handle this, but I think I am going to enter future trials as a Vet dog with a Vet Handler at proficient, and let the Trial Secretary figure it out. But, how would you describe my situation?

Fred
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Amy McGovern on October 28, 2013, 07:20:20 AM
I moved my girl to skilled vet and she loves it!  I love that this means she can run longer and with less chance of injury.  No other venue (that I've tried or know of) lets us do this with our dogs so early.  When I first considered it (when our oldest dog turned 7), I kept thinking it would be silly and she would hate it.  Our trainer convinced me to try it for one show and the dog came off the course smiling.  That was all the proof I needed and now I'm a firm believer :)  We now have done it for both of the older dogs.

-Amy and the schnauzer pack
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on October 28, 2013, 09:06:12 AM
The requirement of vet always confused me if the jump height was already lowered by running skilled.  For the description I will use the 16" P dog.  If they are running skilled, they run ALL classes at the 12" level both jumping and non-jumping classes.  This gives the dogs a bit of a time break in the non-jumping classes.  However, the "vet" division does not allow for that.  The only change is in the "jumping" classes.  In all other classes they run in their proficient division.  So as a dog that runs skilled their entire career, they actually lose out when they are forced to the "vet" division, unless they jump 8" lower than their proficient height.  For some dogs at age 9 that drop is not necessary.  Since you can't do both proficient and skilled in the same weekend, it might force some people to only do "non-jumping" classes in one weekend to go skilled/vet and "jumping" classes only on others so they can go Vet/proficient to avoid the 8" height drop in the jumping classes.
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sionnach on October 29, 2013, 07:20:57 AM
The requirement of vet always confused me if the jump height was already lowered by running skilled.  For the description I will use the 16" P dog.  If they are running skilled, they run ALL classes at the 12" level both jumping and non-jumping classes.  This gives the dogs a bit of a time break in the non-jumping classes.  However, the "vet" division does not allow for that. 


Ok, now you have me confused, as to where you see an issue.  :)    I have a dog who measures into the 16" class by a fraction of an inch. I prefer not to jump her nearly an inch over her withers, so I enter her in the Skilled category. That allows her to jump 12" in the classes with jumps, and I believe (as you say above) that she also gets 12" time in the non-jumping classes. Since she's only 4 years old, her *division* in all classes is Standard. (If your dog's not a Veteran, and you're not a Junior Handler or a Veteran Handler, then the dog is in the Standard division.)

 When she becomes a Veteran dog, her category will still be Skilled for all classes.  Her *division* for the non-jumping classes, as I understand the rules, remains "Standard" - last I heard, there isn't a veteran DOG category for those classes, only a veteran HANDLER category. So she still gets whatever time break she's been getting all along.
 In the *jumping* classes, her division will be 12" veteran dog. As such, she will jump 8", and will get 12" Veteran times.  Again, she'll still be in the 12" division, Skilled category, for the non-jumping classes - she gets the same time break she always did. 

 



Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Vicki Storrs on October 29, 2013, 10:41:59 AM
The requirement of vet always confused me if the jump height was already lowered by running skilled.  For the description I will use the 16" P dog.  If they are running skilled, they run ALL classes at the 12" level both jumping and non-jumping classes.  This gives the dogs a bit of a time break in the non-jumping classes.  However, the "vet" division does not allow for that. 


Ok, now you have me confused, as to where you see an issue.  :)    I have a dog who measures into the 16" class by a fraction of an inch. I prefer not to jump her nearly an inch over her withers, so I enter her in the Skilled category. That allows her to jump 12" in the classes with jumps, and I believe (as you say above) that she also gets 12" time in the non-jumping classes. Since she's only 4 years old, her *division* in all classes is Standard. (If your dog's not a Veteran, and you're not a Junior Handler or a Veteran Handler, then the dog is in the Standard division.)

 When she becomes a Veteran dog, her category will still be Skilled for all classes.  Her *division* for the non-jumping classes, as I understand the rules, remains "Standard" - last I heard, there isn't a veteran DOG category for those classes, only a veteran HANDLER category. So she still gets whatever time break she's been getting all along.
 In the *jumping* classes, her division will be 12" veteran dog. As such, she will jump 8", and will get 12" Veteran times.  Again, she'll still be in the 12" division, Skilled category, for the non-jumping classes - she gets the same time break she always did.
I think the problem is that they DON'T want to jump 8", they want to stay at 12", so the only way to do that is to switch from skilled to proficient. So will they be proficient 16" dog in the non-jumping classes (since you say there isn't a vet dog class in those categories) --and have to make a
Lower time in those classes than they did as a skilled 12" dog --and a proficient 12" vet dog in the jumping classes?
I don't know the answer just hope I'm clarifying the question.
Vicki Storrs
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Rebecca Kriz on October 29, 2013, 11:07:31 AM
I think their issue is if you were running Skilled the whole time, possibly for a time break in the games classes in addition to the height break, by changing to Proficient Vet to have just a 4" jump height break, you don't get more time in the games.  They might not feel their dog needs or wants an 8" break at that age.  I don't know what the solution to that would be or if anyone would have that problem, but that's what I'm seeing.
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on October 29, 2013, 01:00:36 PM
I think their issue is if you were running Skilled the whole time, possibly for a time break in the games classes in addition to the height break, by changing to Proficient Vet to have just a 4" jump height break, you don't get more time in the games.  They might not feel their dog needs or wants an 8" break at that age.  I don't know what the solution to that would be or if anyone would have that problem, but that's what I'm seeing.

That is exactly my thought. 
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on October 29, 2013, 02:05:46 PM
I think their issue is if you were running Skilled the whole time, possibly for a time break in the games classes in addition to the height break, by changing to Proficient Vet to have just a 4" jump height break, you don't get more time in the games.  They might not feel their dog needs or wants an 8" break at that age.  I don't know what the solution to that would be or if anyone would have that problem, but that's what I'm seeing.

That is exactly my thought.

I would appreciate some clarification on this as well.  I have a 7 yr. old dog who measures 20" and is currently jumping 16" in Proficient since I am a veteran handler.   I would prefer to continue to jump her at 16" since she is very athletic and is comfortable at that height.  My question is whether or not I will have to drop her to 12" when she turns 8 next year.  I believe I will be allowed to continue at 16" as long as she is in Proficient, but would like confirmation.
Linda
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 29, 2013, 02:46:28 PM
I think their issue is if you were running Skilled the whole time, possibly for a time break in the games classes in addition to the height break, by changing to Proficient Vet to have just a 4" jump height break, you don't get more time in the games.  They might not feel their dog needs or wants an 8" break at that age.  I don't know what the solution to that would be or if anyone would have that problem, but that's what I'm seeing.

That is exactly my thought.

Yes, I think that is what they are trying to say.  That they want the time break in all classes, but only a 4" height break.  I understand that request........ except I have to take the hard line side and say that if the dog needs extra time for classes with no jumps and they are only running "on the flat" and can't make time, that maybe it is in the dog's best interest to "have" to enter Skilled Veterans and take the 8" jump height break.  A dog that can't make time on the flat might need to take a maximum jump height break for the sake of their body.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 29, 2013, 02:49:55 PM

I would appreciate some clarification on this as well.  I have a 7 yr. old dog who measures 20" and is currently jumping 16" in Proficient since I am a veteran handler.   I would prefer to continue to jump her at 16" since she is very athletic and is comfortable at that height.  My question is whether or not I will have to drop her to 12" when she turns 8 next year.  I believe I will be allowed to continue at 16" as long as she is in Proficient, but would like confirmation.
Linda

You have to enter Veterans when she reaches her 9th birthday.  You can switch from Proficient VH to Proficient Veteran dog and not receive the extra time in the non-jumping classes.  If your dog needs time in all classes, then you need to enter Skilled Veterans/VH/JH.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Rebecca Kriz on October 29, 2013, 03:00:06 PM
I think their issue is if you were running Skilled the whole time, possibly for a time break in the games classes in addition to the height break, by changing to Proficient Vet to have just a 4" jump height break, you don't get more time in the games.  They might not feel their dog needs or wants an 8" break at that age.  I don't know what the solution to that would be or if anyone would have that problem, but that's what I'm seeing.

That is exactly my thought.

Yes, I think that is what they are trying to say.  That they want the time break in all classes, but only a 4" height break.  I understand that request........ except I have to take the hard line side and say that if the dog needs extra time for classes with no jumps and they are only running "on the flat" and can't make time, that maybe it is in the dog's best interest to "have" to enter Skilled Veterans and take the 8" jump height break.  A dog that can't make time on the flat might need to take a maximum jump height break for the sake of their body.

Sharon

And that exact thought crossed my mind as I was typing my post, but I wasn't sure I should be the one to say it!
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: fbrazeil on October 29, 2013, 05:27:10 PM
I didn't get a reply to my post, so let me rephrase it. Are you saying that I can't enter a trial as both a Veteran Handler and a Veteran dog? If not, why not? Even if my dog is now nine years old, I am still a veteran handler. What is the justification for taking away my VH status just because my dog is a Veteran. In the non-jumping classes, are you assuming that both my dog and myself can both run faster now that we are older? (If so, that's a very bad assumption.) I'm thinking your only reason for doing this is that your software can't handle a Vet dog with a Vet Handler. So, change the software.
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Cindy on October 29, 2013, 05:31:28 PM

[/quote]

Yes, I think that is what they are trying to say.  That they want the time break in all classes, but only a 4" height break.  I understand that request........ except I have to take the hard line side and say that if the dog needs extra time for classes with no jumps and they are only running "on the flat" and can't make time, that maybe it is in the dog's best interest to "have" to enter Skilled Veterans and take the 8" jump height break.  A dog that can't make time on the flat might need to take a maximum jump height break for the sake of their body.

Sharon
[/quote]

You very nicely put into words what I was trying to formulate.  At the last trial I was talking with another handler about how painful it can be to watch Novice Jumpers, with so many dogs who are not comfortable at their Proficient height - especially the ones jumping 20".  She commented that when she moved her Elite dog to Skilled Veteran's and took the accompanying jump height break, her dog started making time in Elite Tunnelers once again.  (Not to mention her dog enjoyed Jumpers a lot more.)  Some dogs are working so hard to get over the jumps that they burn up energy they could be using for added speed other places.

I've also seen a very fast dog/handler team get much smoother and more consistent when she dropped to Skilled as the dog didn't have to spend so much mental energy on jumping and could direct that towards following the path.  This dog didn't appear to be having any trouble with the jumps, but it was very obvious when the jumps were lowered the toll it was taking on her mentally and physically.

In both of these cases the agility benefits are secondary to the physical benefits for the dog over the long haul, but it is nice that there was an immediate payoff as well. 

Personally I'm among those that see no need to jump my dog any higher than the rules allow.  While I cannot control all of the abuse they give their bodies, I want to know at the end that I did everything in my power to minimize the impact of the activities I chose for them to do and that includes lowering the jumps while they were still comfortable at their current height, and not waiting until the strain was showing.  Thank you Sharon for emphasizing that over the years and for building a system that allows and encourages us to do just that.
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 29, 2013, 05:47:58 PM
I didn't get a reply to my post, so let me rephrase it. Are you saying that I can't enter a trial as both a Veteran Handler and a Veteran dog? If not, why not? Even if my dog is now nine years old, I am still a veteran handler. What is the justification for taking away my VH status just because my dog is a Veteran. In the non-jumping classes, are you assuming that both my dog and myself can both run faster now that we are older? (If so, that's a very bad assumption.) I'm thinking your only reason for doing this is that your software can't handle a Vet dog with a Vet Handler. So, change the software.

Fred, the Veteran division is for "Veterans" whether it is for Veteran dog or Veteran Handler.  You do not get two "breaks" just because both happen to be Veterans.  A handler doesn't "have" to ever declare their Veteran status and many don't.  The 9+ Veteran dogs will have to. 

It isn't a software problem.  NADAC does not have a "double Veteran" division.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: fbrazeil on October 29, 2013, 06:04:21 PM

Fred, the Veteran division is for "Veterans" whether it is for Veteran dog or Veteran Handler.  You do not get two "breaks" just because both happen to be Veterans.  A handler doesn't "have" to ever declare their Veteran status and many don't.  The 9+ Veteran dogs will have to. 

It isn't a software problem.  NADAC does not have a "double Veteran" division.

Sharon

What is the purpose of declaring a nine year old as a Veteran? If it is for the dog to jump 4" lower, that already happens with Veteran Handler. What other purpose is there?

I am not asking for two breaks. You are forcing my dog to be entered as a Veteran, it's not something I'm asking for. I guess what I want is for my dog to be a Veteran in the jumping classes, and have a Veteran Handler in the non-jumping classes.

And yes it is a software problem. Your software does not recognize a Veteran Handler running a Veteran dog. That's essentially what you are saying.
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on October 29, 2013, 06:16:43 PM
Ok, so let me make sure I understand... the requirements for when they have to be moved is on their 9th birthday (down to Vet at the least) and 12 (down to Skilled Vet).  I was thinking it was as of Jan. 1 when they turn 11 and after 7 for the other age drop down.  So, the years are actually 9 and 12?

Thanks! 

Lorrie Stelz
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 29, 2013, 06:26:14 PM

Fred, the Veteran division is for "Veterans" whether it is for Veteran dog or Veteran Handler.  You do not get two "breaks" just because both happen to be Veterans.  A handler doesn't "have" to ever declare their Veteran status and many don't.  The 9+ Veteran dogs will have to. 

It isn't a software problem.  NADAC does not have a "double Veteran" division.

Sharon

What is the purpose of declaring a nine year old as a Veteran? If it is for the dog to jump 4" lower, that already happens with Veteran Handler. What other purpose is there?

I am not asking for two breaks. You are forcing my dog to be entered as a Veteran, it's not something I'm asking for. I guess what I want is for my dog to be a Veteran in the jumping classes, and have a Veteran Handler in the non-jumping classes.

And yes it is a software problem. Your software does not recognize a Veteran Handler running a Veteran dog. That's essentially what you are saying.

Fred, we use four different software vendors that clubs may use for NADAC clubs.  Two of them support NADAC completely, Agility Unscrambled and FAST.  Two others do have a working version, Trial Genie and AGT.  The first two might make the required changes if NADAC asked them to.  The second two would most likely not make any major software changes, as they mainly support AKC/USDAA.

It is not a software problem, as we have never asked any of the vendors to allow for Veteran Dog/Veteran Handler combinations.  At this time, I do not see a reason for a major software change to allow for a team to be in "either" Veteran Dog or Veteran Handler status.  The same time and jump options are already available via the Skilled/Proficient and Veteran/Standard division choices.

By switching a dog when they are nine to Skilled Veteran dog the team has two jump height breaks and two time breaks in jumping classes and one height break and one time break in the non-jumping classes.  By allowing the either/or the only increase would be two time breaks with one height break in the non-jumping classes.  A team also has the option of moving from Elite to Open or Open to Novice for an even greater break in time and course difficulty.  I guess I would be back to wondering if an Elite team needs more time and height breaks than the options already given to them, then one has to wonder how much fun the dog is having while running agility.

We have so many options available to dog/handler teams that there should be a comfortable place for all teams to run and qualify.  If the handler's goals are for a NATCH and they cannot succeed with the current options, I am sorry but those are the options available.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: MoabDiane on October 29, 2013, 06:57:58 PM
I'm thinking this series of message might need to be a "sticky topic"....so I can find it in a few years when my dog becomes a "real" vet!

 :o

diane
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sheila & the Shelties on October 29, 2013, 07:52:17 PM
YES, it should be a sticky topic!  I get it all straight in my head, the someone asks a question about it, and others throw in all kinds of scenarios, and then my head starts spinning!  Last year my dog was jumping the wrong height as the trial secretary entered it wrong.  With my computer down I did not have a chance to check the confirmation....Make it a sticky topic!
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 29, 2013, 08:51:10 PM

Fred, the Veteran division is for "Veterans" whether it is for Veteran dog or Veteran Handler.  You do not get two "breaks" just because both happen to be Veterans.  A handler doesn't "have" to ever declare their Veteran status and many don't.  The 9+ Veteran dogs will have to. 

It isn't a software problem.  NADAC does not have a "double Veteran" division.

Sharon

What is the purpose of declaring a nine year old as a Veteran? If it is for the dog to jump 4" lower, that already happens with Veteran Handler. What other purpose is there?

I am not asking for two breaks. You are forcing my dog to be entered as a Veteran, it's not something I'm asking for. I guess what I want is for my dog to be a Veteran in the jumping classes, and have a Veteran Handler in the non-jumping classes.

And yes it is a software problem. Your software does not recognize a Veteran Handler running a Veteran dog. That's essentially what you are saying.

Fred, we use four different software vendors that clubs may use for NADAC clubs.  Two of them support NADAC completely, Agility Unscrambled and FAST.  Two others do have a working version, Trial Genie and AGT.  The first two might make the required changes if NADAC asked them to.  The second two would most likely not make any major software changes, as they mainly support AKC/USDAA.

It is not a software problem, as we have never asked any of the vendors to allow for Veteran Dog/Veteran Handler combinations.  At this time, I do not see a reason for a major software change to allow for a team to be in "either" Veteran Dog or Veteran Handler status.  The same time and jump options are already available via the Skilled/Proficient and Veteran/Standard division choices.

By switching a dog when they are nine to Skilled Veteran dog the team has two jump height breaks and two time breaks in jumping classes and one height break and one time break in the non-jumping classes.  By allowing the either/or the only increase would be two time breaks with one height break in the non-jumping classes.  A team also has the option of moving from Elite to Open or Open to Novice for an even greater break in time and course difficulty.  I guess I would be back to wondering if an Elite team needs more time and height breaks than the options already given to them, then one has to wonder how much fun the dog is having while running agility.

We have so many options available to dog/handler teams that there should be a comfortable place for all teams to run and qualify.  If the handler's goals are for a NATCH and they cannot succeed with the current options, I am sorry but those are the options available.

Sharon

Also, Fred, when you enter a dog in VH, then the software treats the "team" as a Veteran team.  In NADAC, a "Veteran" is a Veteran, regardless if it is the dog or the handler.   As long as the dog is listed as entered in the "Veteran" division, I cannot understand any reason to change any software so that they can be entered in some classes as a "Veteran dog" and sometimes as a "Veteran Handler"......... a Veteran is a Veteran.  As a Veteran handler you get a break in all classes, but the dog is still being entered in the "Veteran division"......... we don't need a software change for that.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Tom Fix on October 29, 2013, 08:54:18 PM
...
By switching a dog when they are nine to Skilled Veteran dog the team has two jump height breaks and two time breaks in jumping classes and one height break and one time break in the non-jumping classes.  By allowing the either/or the only increase would be two time breaks with one height break in the non-jumping classes.  A team also has the option of moving from Elite to Open or Open to Novice for an even greater break in time and course difficulty.  I guess I would be back to wondering if an Elite team needs more time and height breaks than the options already given to them, then one has to wonder how much fun the dog is having while running agility.

We have so many options available to dog/handler teams that there should be a comfortable place for all teams to run and qualify.  If the handler's goals are for a NATCH and they cannot succeed with the current options, I am sorry but those are the options available.

Sharon

It has been my understanding that “veteran dog” status was an accommodation for the age of the dog and that the “veteran handler” status was an accommodation for the age of the handler.

Also, I’ve had the impression that, for the well-being of the dog, NADAC has been encouraging handlers to run their dogs at the lowest jump height available to them.  Many, if not most, have switched to Skilled from Proficient.  There are many veteran handlers who enter their dogs in the Skilled division and receive two time allowances (and two height allowances) in all classes.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but you seem to be saying that when the dog reaches 9, the handler loses the veteran handler accommodation in the non-jumping classes, an accommodation they can use until the dog is 9.

“I guess I would be back to wondering if an Elite team needs more time and height breaks than the options already given to them ...”

If I haven’t misunderstood, the veteran handler situation is not a matter of needing “more time and height breaks than the options given...”, it is a matter of losing an option that they currently have.

I guess my question is, "When my dog turns 9 and has to be entered as a Skilled/veteran, do I lose my veteran handler status in the non-jumping class?"

Thanks,
Tom
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 29, 2013, 08:56:25 PM

Fred, the Veteran division is for "Veterans" whether it is for Veteran dog or Veteran Handler.  You do not get two "breaks" just because both happen to be Veterans.  A handler doesn't "have" to ever declare their Veteran status and many don't.  The 9+ Veteran dogs will have to. 

It isn't a software problem.  NADAC does not have a "double Veteran" division.

Sharon

What is the purpose of declaring a nine year old as a Veteran? If it is for the dog to jump 4" lower, that already happens with Veteran Handler. What other purpose is there?

I am not asking for two breaks. You are forcing my dog to be entered as a Veteran, it's not something I'm asking for. I guess what I want is for my dog to be a Veteran in the jumping classes, and have a Veteran Handler in the non-jumping classes.

And yes it is a software problem. Your software does not recognize a Veteran Handler running a Veteran dog. That's essentially what you are saying.

Fred, I don't totally understand your question and why you think there is a problem and why there needs to be any "changes".

If you enter as a Veteran Handler, then your dog is entered in the Veterans division.  Why do you think that there needs to be an option to split the entry into some runs as VH and some runs as "Veteran Dog"??  I am missing something.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Rebecca Kriz on October 29, 2013, 09:01:13 PM
Also, Fred, when you enter a dog in VH, then the software treats the "team" as a Veteran team.  In NADAC, a "Veteran" is a Veteran, regardless if it is the dog or the handler.   As long as the dog is listed as entered in the "Veteran" division, I cannot understand any reason to change any software so that they can be entered in some classes as a "Veteran dog" and sometimes as a "Veteran Handler"......... a Veteran is a Veteran.  As a Veteran handler you get a break in all classes, but the dog is still being entered in the "Veteran division"......... we don't need a software change for that.

Sharon

Ok, so it doesn't matter who the Veteran is as long as a nine year old dog is entered as a Veteran?
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 29, 2013, 09:31:09 PM

It has been my understanding that “veteran dog” status was an accommodation for the age of the dog and that the “veteran handler” status was an accommodation for the age of the handler.

Also, I’ve had the impression that, for the well-being of the dog, NADAC has been encouraging handlers to run their dogs at the lowest jump height available to them.  Many, if not most, have switched to Skilled from Proficient.  There are many veteran handlers who enter their dogs in the Skilled division and receive two time allowances (and two height allowances) in all classes.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but you seem to be saying that when the dog reaches 9, the handler loses the veteran handler accommodation in the non-jumping classes, an accommodation they can use until the dog is 9.

“I guess I would be back to wondering if an Elite team needs more time and height breaks than the options already given to them ...”

If I haven’t misunderstood, the veteran handler situation is not a matter of needing “more time and height breaks than the options given...”, it is a matter of losing an option that they currently have.

I guess my question is, "When my dog turns 9 and has to be entered as a Skilled/veteran, do I lose my veteran handler status in the non-jumping class?"

Thanks,
Tom

Why does a handler lose their Veteran Handler status?????

There is a "division" in NADAC that is called Veterans......  If handlers want to enter their dogs in that division, then they are "in" that division.   

If a handler enters into the Veteran division they can get different breaks from the Standard division.  A Veteran dog gets a height break and jump height break in the jumping classes.  A Veteran Handler gets a break in all classes, since they are older and need more time to physically and mentally get around a course (???? not always!!  but it is their choice!)

When a dog reaches their 9th birthday, they must be entered in the Veterans division.  NADAC doesn't care if it is Veteran dog or Veteran Handler division, but they MUST be in the Veterans division and they MUST take a jump height break.  On their 12th birthday they MUST enter Skilled Veteran. 

Why are people jumping up and telling me they are losing their veteran status??  They are entering the Veterans division.  We don't have to rewrite any software and we don't have to have our older generation offended that they are losing their rights as an older handler...

Why do you think you are losing your VH options? 

I am truly missing something here.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 29, 2013, 09:41:10 PM
Also, Fred, when you enter a dog in VH, then the software treats the "team" as a Veteran team.  In NADAC, a "Veteran" is a Veteran, regardless if it is the dog or the handler.   As long as the dog is listed as entered in the "Veteran" division, I cannot understand any reason to change any software so that they can be entered in some classes as a "Veteran dog" and sometimes as a "Veteran Handler"......... a Veteran is a Veteran.  As a Veteran handler you get a break in all classes, but the dog is still being entered in the "Veteran division"......... we don't need a software change for that.

Sharon

Ok, so it doesn't matter who the Veteran is as long as a nine year old dog is entered as a Veteran?

As long as the results come in with a "Veteran" designation, they are entered in Veterans.  If they aren't entered in Veterans on their 9th birthday the points won't count.  On their 12th birthday the results must show the indicators for both Skilled and Veterans or the points won't count.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: fbrazeil on October 29, 2013, 09:54:34 PM
In Tunnelers, TouchNGo, and Weavers, does a 16" Proficient Veteran Dog get the same SCT as a 16" Proficient Dog with a Veteran Handler? My impression is that the VH gets 10% more SCT than the Veteran Dog, but I could be wrong.

Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 29, 2013, 10:02:18 PM
In Tunnelers, TouchNGo, and Weavers, does a 16" Proficient Veteran Dog get the same SCT as a 16" Proficient Dog with a Veteran Handler? My impression is that the VH gets 10% more SCT than the Veteran Dog, but I could be wrong.

The 16" Proficient VH team would get more time (10%)..... so it you want more time you would enter as a Veteran Handler team.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: fbrazeil on October 29, 2013, 10:11:08 PM
In Tunnelers, TouchNGo, and Weavers, does a 16" Proficient Veteran Dog get the same SCT as a 16" Proficient Dog with a Veteran Handler? My impression is that the VH gets 10% more SCT than the Veteran Dog, but I could be wrong.

The 16" Proficient VH team would get more time (10%)..... so it you want more time you would enter as a Veteran Handler team.

Sharon

Now, here's the $64,000 question, and I bet I am probably confused. Can I enter my nine year old dog (actually, today really is his ninth birthday) as Proficient, Veteran Handler? (BTW, I have always entered as VH since I started NADAC) On my dog's previous results, he is listed as Vet for the jumping classes, and VH for the non-jumping classes. If all that stays the same, then this was much ado about nothing, all due to my misunderstanding. Actually, I am entering SCOR's trial this weekend, and I want to make sure I get this right. Thank you for your patience, Sharon.
After all, I am getting older. ( Hence the VH.)
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Carole & Pat Daggett on October 29, 2013, 10:34:16 PM
I'm wondering if some of the confusion is in my specific answer to Mary where I said that when her dog turns 9 she must enter her as a Vet (knowing that Mary is way too young for VH status).  To make it applicable for all, I could have said she must enter the Veteran Division.  Although I use those words later in the explanation, putting it in the first sentence may have been clearer for someone trying to determine how it affects his or her specific case.

Carole


Hi Mary,

As Sharon said, when your dog become 9 you must enter her as a Vet, and if your goal was to jump her 4" lower, you would enter her as a Proficient Vet.  Your dog's current jump height would not change (since she is in Skilled now), but you would have to take her out of Skilled unless you wanted to jump her 8" lower, as you would have to if she were age 12.  The requirement is for her to enter the Veteran Division at 9, so taking a 4" height break by putting her in Skilled does not meet that requirement.  I think that may be where the confusion lies - the rule is not that you have to take a 4" reduction in height when she becomes 9, but that she must be entered as a Vet.  Your choice is then whether to put her in Proficient or Skilled.  Remember that your Skilled and Proficient points are combined, so you would not "lose" any points by moving her to Proficient Vet, if that is the choice that you ultimately make.  Hope that explanation helps.

Carole Daggett
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 30, 2013, 12:08:50 AM
Now, here's the $64,000 question, and I bet I am probably confused. Can I enter my nine year old dog (actually, today really is his ninth birthday) as Proficient, Veteran Handler? (BTW, I have always entered as VH since I started NADAC) On my dog's previous results, he is listed as Vet for the jumping classes, and VH for the non-jumping classes. If all that stays the same, then this was much ado about nothing, all due to my misunderstanding. Actually, I am entering SCOR's trial this weekend, and I want to make sure I get this right. Thank you for your patience, Sharon.
After all, I am getting older. ( Hence the VH.)

YES!  As long as he is in a "Veteran" division, go run, have fun and have a great weekend!

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: danforth on October 30, 2013, 06:09:54 AM
So if we are running now entered as Veteran handler and Proficient, we can just keep that selection on our premiums when he reaches his 9th birthday.

Nothing needs to change, correct?   He will still jump at the same height as he has been doing.

Isabel
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on October 30, 2013, 06:32:10 AM
Thank you, Sharon, for your patience in clarifying this issue.  I, too, was confused about how this applied to me as a VH with my younger dogs.  Bottom line, if I understand correctly, is it will make no difference since all my dogs, no matter what their age, are already entered in the "Veteran Division".
Linda
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Tom Fix on October 30, 2013, 06:40:45 AM

It has been my understanding that “veteran dog” status was an accommodation for the age of the dog and that the “veteran handler” status was an accommodation for the age of the handler.

Also, I’ve had the impression that, for the well-being of the dog, NADAC has been encouraging handlers to run their dogs at the lowest jump height available to them.  Many, if not most, have switched to Skilled from Proficient.  There are many veteran handlers who enter their dogs in the Skilled division and receive two time allowances (and two height allowances) in all classes.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but you seem to be saying that when the dog reaches 9, the handler loses the veteran handler accommodation in the non-jumping classes, an accommodation they can use until the dog is 9.

“I guess I would be back to wondering if an Elite team needs more time and height breaks than the options already given to them ...”

If I haven’t misunderstood, the veteran handler situation is not a matter of needing “more time and height breaks than the options given...”, it is a matter of losing an option that they currently have.

I guess my question is, "When my dog turns 9 and has to be entered as a Skilled/veteran, do I lose my veteran handler status in the non-jumping class?"

Thanks,
Tom

Why does a handler lose their Veteran Handler status?????

There is a "division" in NADAC that is called Veterans......  If handlers want to enter their dogs in that division, then they are "in" that division.   

If a handler enters into the Veteran division they can get different breaks from the Standard division.  A Veteran dog gets a height break and jump height break in the jumping classes.  A Veteran Handler gets a break in all classes, since they are older and need more time to physically and mentally get around a course (???? not always!!  but it is their choice!)

When a dog reaches their 9th birthday, they must be entered in the Veterans division.  NADAC doesn't care if it is Veteran dog or Veteran Handler division, but they MUST be in the Veterans division and they MUST take a jump height break.  On their 12th birthday they MUST enter Skilled Veteran. 

Why are people jumping up and telling me they are losing their veteran status??  They are entering the Veterans division.  We don't have to rewrite any software and we don't have to have our older generation offended that they are losing their rights as an older handler...

Why do you think you are losing your VH options? 

I am truly missing something here.

Sharon

My post was started before your response to Rebecca Kriz: "If you enter as a Veteran Handler, then your dog is entered in the Veterans division.  Why do you think that there needs to be an option to split the entry into some runs as VH and some runs as "Veteran Dog"??  I am missing something."

Had I seen it before I started my question, I would not have had a question.  I think the quote also explains, at least partially, our (my) confusion.  You see only one Veterans division, "…the dog is entered in the Veteran's division.

Since the rule book's section on divisions list 5 separate divisions, including three veteran divisions - two for veteran dogs (actually, I would considered that one division with two parts) and one for veteran handler/disabled - I have considered them as separate divisions.  Thus, "the dog must be entered in the veteran's division has a different meaning than the dog must be entered in a veteran''s division.

In any event, my question has been answered.

Thanks,
Tom
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on October 30, 2013, 07:32:42 AM
I think their issue is if you were running Skilled the whole time, possibly for a time break in the games classes in addition to the height break, by changing to Proficient Vet to have just a 4" jump height break, you don't get more time in the games.  They might not feel their dog needs or wants an 8" break at that age.  I don't know what the solution to that would be or if anyone would have that problem, but that's what I'm seeing.

That is exactly my thought.

Yes, I think that is what they are trying to say.  That they want the time break in all classes, but only a 4" height break.  I understand that request........ except I have to take the hard line side and say that if the dog needs extra time for classes with no jumps and they are only running "on the flat" and can't make time, that maybe it is in the dog's best interest to "have" to enter Skilled Veterans and take the 8" jump height break.  A dog that can't make time on the flat might need to take a maximum jump height break for the sake of their body.

Sharon

I will take it as it is, but in my case and I am sure in others, it isn't the jump heights that gets her (she jumps my 6' fence in a single bound faster than I can get her name out), it is the fact that she is an "obstacle" dog.  She makes time quite easily in regular, jumpers, and TNG. She really just doesn't see the "need" to RUN 13 tunnels in a row (WOW!  Mom this is BORING!) but will make proficient time if she "feels" like it that day.  Her main issue is in weavers with the fact that she gets going then slows down for the weaves, then has to get going again, then slow down again.... and it is again, those darn tunnels and hoops...   She isn't at the point where I have to make the decision yet, so I was just curious of the reasoning.
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: cairnsby2 on October 30, 2013, 11:16:36 AM
Ok, I think I understand it, so my question is personal.  My Cairn terrier (8" breed exemption) is currently running as proficient vet and I am a veteran handler.  She jumps 4".  In January she will turn 12.  So I would still be a veteran handler, but I would enter her in skilled vet.  Still jumping 4" since she can't take an 8" drop?

Linda

Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: mephalon on October 30, 2013, 11:26:48 AM
The reason I asked this question and specifically  if proficient vet gets the same time as skilled isn't because my dog can't make time and I wish people would not judge intent based on a simple question. 

I have a unique situation in that I run a breed exempt dog and as skilled we already jump 8"lower than her measured proficient height.  When she turns 9 next year I have to decide if I want to continue to use the breed exemption or wait until she is older and just run her as a skilled vet.  If I continue to use it she would jump 12" Lower than her measured proficient height.  If I no longer take the exemption she would still jump her current 8" lower (as a skilled vet) but I believe would get the times for a skilled 16" dog in the non-jumping classes whereas now she gets the times of a 12" skilled.  Time is not an issue with us but I was looking for clarification/information so I can decide how I want to enter and I can look at her current times vs what time should we have to make if we don't take the election.

So can someone please confirm this- does a 12" skilled vet get 16" skilled time in non-jumping classes?
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Kristine Doll on October 30, 2013, 01:44:50 PM
I've been following this discussion but being confused am going to ask directly: 

My dog is 11 years old, his permanent height card measures 12" Proficient.  Since he turned 7 he's been happily jumping 8" Proficient Vet Dog and grouped with 12" Proficient dogs for Non-Jumping classes.

On his 12th birthday - possibly before - he will move to 4" Skilled Vet Dog and told he would get a further time break for Regular and Jumpers. 

However, was also told that he will not get any time break in Non-Jumping classes (ie even though he will then be grouped with the 8" Skilled Dogs they get the same SCT as the 12" Proficient dogs).  So therefore the only way he could get more time in Non-Jumping classes is if I were to become a Veteran Handler (which I won't be until several years after he retires)?  Thank you for any clarification!
Kristine & Thane
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 30, 2013, 04:04:32 PM
I've been following this discussion but being confused am going to ask directly: 

My dog is 11 years old, his permanent height card measures 12" Proficient.  Since he turned 7 he's been happily jumping 8" Proficient Vet Dog and grouped with 12" Proficient dogs for Non-Jumping classes.

On his 12th birthday - possibly before - he will move to 4" Skilled Vet Dog and told he would get a further time break for Regular and Jumpers. 

However, was also told that he will not get any time break in Non-Jumping classes (ie even though he will then be grouped with the 8" Skilled Dogs they get the same SCT as the 12" Proficient dogs).  So therefore the only way he could get more time in Non-Jumping classes is if I were to become a Veteran Handler (which I won't be until several years after he retires)?  Thank you for any clarification!
Kristine & Thane

You have a great plan.  You have received some incorrect info on the time for "SS" dogs (small Skilled dogs) as they do get 5% more time if they are 4/8" Skilled dogs than the 12" Skilled dogs.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: agil8ek9 on October 31, 2013, 05:54:06 AM
Quote
I will take it as it is, but in my case and I am sure in others, it isn't the jump heights that gets her

Audri, I'm in the same situation.  I have one who turned 9 last April.  She's sound (been evaluated, gets adjusted regularly), she's an effortless jumper, but she's a chronic "trotter" through large expanses of flat space, including hoops and tunnels.  Started as a stress thing,  but at this point it's just how she rolls.  (BTW she doesn't trot up to jumps and pop - she canters on approach, and can jump well extended or collected.)  I always ran her skilled for the time - but choosing between regular and games on a given weekend makes for a long, slow day (we don't do tunnelers or hoopers) so we've been playing in other venues.   But it is what it is ... I understand the intent ...

Not to "troll" Mary's question, which I didn't see answered, which was:

Quote
So can someone please confirm this- does a 12" skilled vet get 16" skilled time in non-jumping classes?
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Maureen deHaan on October 31, 2013, 09:18:28 AM
Mary - I am not sure of the answer 100% but I can tell you that Nika (12" skilled vet) is scored with the 16" skilled dogs in non-jumping.
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 31, 2013, 10:20:56 AM

So can someone please confirm this- does a 12" skilled vet get 16" skilled time in non-jumping classes?

That is correct.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: mephalon on October 31, 2013, 10:33:30 AM
Thanks- now I can look at her times vs. 16" skilled and decide what the best place (12" or 8") would be for us.   Time is not usually what causes us to NQ- I am a big factor in that equation.   Roxanne is perfect.
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Kristine Doll on October 31, 2013, 12:37:15 PM
Thank you Sharon for the information that the Small Skilled (4/8") dogs are supposed to get 5% more time in the Non-Jumping classes. 

However, looking at our club's October trial results I'm still confused as there was no extra time given to the Small Skilled 4/8" dogs.  Using Friday and Saturday TNG and WV results as examples the 8" Skilled dogs had the same SCT as the 12" Skilled and Proficient dogs.  There was even one Skilled 4" Novice dog in TNG Saturday and the SCT is the same as the 8" and 12 dogs.
Kristine & Thane












Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sionnach on October 31, 2013, 12:40:59 PM

I think the problem is that they DON'T want to jump 8", they want to stay at 12", so the only way to do that is to switch from skilled to proficient. So will they be proficient 16" dog in the non-jumping classes (since you say there isn't a vet dog class in those categories) --and have to make a
Lower time in those classes than they did as a skilled 12" dog

 Ah, I bet you're right.  I didn't think of that, since I, personally, would want the lowest possible jump height if I had a dog that NEEDED a time break in the non-jumping classes.
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Sharon Nelson on October 31, 2013, 01:46:23 PM
Thank you Sharon for the information that the Small Skilled (4/8") dogs are supposed to get 5% more time in the Non-Jumping classes. 

However, looking at our club's October trial results I'm still confused as there was no extra time given to the Small Skilled 4/8" dogs.  Using Friday and Saturday TNG and WV results as examples the 8" Skilled dogs had the same SCT as the 12" Skilled and Proficient dogs.  There was even one Skilled 4" Novice dog in TNG Saturday and the SCT is the same as the 8" and 12 dogs.
Kristine & Thane

Two of the software vendors stay udated on NADAC requirements.  Those are Agility Unscrambled and FAST.  If your club uses other software, then it is possible that they do not update their software to recognized the SS dogs.  If your club uses AU or FAST, then the extra time should be indicated.

Sharon
Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Cheryl Gilbert on October 31, 2013, 04:52:38 PM
OK, This whole conversation/thread has me confused (hopefully it's not NADAC related dementia)   :-)

Just to clarify... I have an older dog...9y/o so a veteran dog that is originally 12 inches but eligible for the breed exemption so their normal jump height is 8".  I am using the handicapped handler due to a bad knee and they are jumping skilled.  Is this possible?  Is this the best entry option for speed allowances and jump heights?  I think this would have them jumping 4" with the largest amount of speed allowances available.  Am I correct? 

I also have a young dog who is 2 years old, measures about 12 inches, and I have entered her with me as a handicapped handler and her in proficient without using the breed jump height exemption.  She would jump 8" and be scored with the 12" dogs with 12"times in the nonjumping classes?.  Is this correct?  If I wanted her scored with the 8 inch dogs for nonjumping classes then she could be entered in skilled and/or use the breed jump height exemption but if I used either of these with the handicapped handler then she would jump 4"?

Sorry if this is confusing...Trying very hard not to be dense....
Cheryl Gilbert
with Wally, Benny, Daisy and Emmy
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Title: Re: Dogs 8 or older question
Post by: Kristine Doll on November 03, 2013, 04:00:07 PM
Hi Sharon,
I checked and three out of four of our local clubs who host NADAC trials use Freeware Agility Secretary Tool, either 26 July 2013 or 20 May 2013 versions. 

But their latest trial results (August for one club, October for the second, and this weekend for the third club) show that this software does NOT add any extra time for the 4/8" SS.  All dogs P/S 4" through 12" (unless Veteran Handlers) at these shows have same SCT for Non-Jumping classes.

The fourth club uses Agility Unscrambled which does add the 5% extra time for the 4/8" SS dogs :)

So one more question, would the clubs whose FAST software is not changing the SCT currently need to update/fix it so that it adds the break for future trials?  Or is it an individual club's decision?  I don't want to cause any problems, but if the software can be fixed easily so SS dogs get their time break it would be great.
Thank you!
Kristine aka teammate to future SS dog Thane who may need that break :)