NADAC Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: KarissaKS on November 13, 2013, 09:49:59 AM

Title: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: KarissaKS on November 13, 2013, 09:49:59 AM
So it's been several years since I've had to worry about getting a dog measured and obtaining a height card -- and I'm going to guess I was still an associate when Kaiser got his so it was a moot point -- But you really charge $10 to get a height card to people who are not associates? That seems like an extra tax to those who choose to run Proficient with a dog that measures below the 20" class (since 20" dogs don't get measured AND Skilled dogs don't require measuring or a height card).

Considering that in another thread it was just mentioned that NADAC is raising the fees to register a dog in 2014 (from $15 to $25 for non-associates), I sincerely hope that it is planned to have this "tax" for a height card absorbed into that price increase. I didn't have to pay for a height card in any other organization. If you require the height card, it should be included in the cost of registration.

I really don't think a person should have to pay for this. What if one were to simply get the form filled out by the required number of judges and then carry that around and present it if asked (like the AKC yellow sheets that you keep until your FREE permanent height card arrives in the mail)? Frankly, I'd be inclined to just do that.

Kizzy may run Skilled. I haven't decided yet. But if I do decide that I want to run her in Proficient I don't think it's fair that I be taxed for that decision.
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Sharon Nelson on November 13, 2013, 11:14:23 AM
So it's been several years since I've had to worry about getting a dog measured and obtaining a height card -- and I'm going to guess I was still an associate when Kaiser got his so it was a moot point -- But you really charge $10 to get a height card to people who are not associates? That seems like an extra tax to those who choose to run Proficient with a dog that measures below the 20" class (since 20" dogs don't get measured AND Skilled dogs don't require measuring or a height card).

Considering that in another thread it was just mentioned that NADAC is raising the fees to register a dog in 2014 (from $15 to $25 for non-associates), I sincerely hope that it is planned to have this "tax" for a height card absorbed into that price increase. I didn't have to pay for a height card in any other organization. If you require the height card, it should be included in the cost of registration.

I really don't think a person should have to pay for this. What if one were to simply get the form filled out by the required number of judges and then carry that around and present it if asked (like the AKC yellow sheets that you keep until your FREE permanent height card arrives in the mail)? Frankly, I'd be inclined to just do that.

Kizzy may run Skilled. I haven't decided yet. But if I do decide that I want to run her in Proficient I don't think it's fair that I be taxed for that decision.

Yes, you can certainly carry around your measurement sheet with you to every trial, no problem!

If you want your laminated height cared and you are not an associate, then you will have to pay the $10 for the height card.

Sharon
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Jeff Lyons on November 13, 2013, 11:30:48 AM
A permanent height card is not required to run in Proficient, so I don't understand how it is a "tax for running proficient."   The card is a convenience to the alternative of getting measured each time.
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Becky Woodruff on November 13, 2013, 11:33:54 AM
Hi Karissa,
The fee for a height card is not a "tax".   The height card fee for non-associates helps to defray the cost to process, print and mail the laminated card.
One of the perks for becoming a NADAC Associate is that this fee is waived.
Exhibitors have a couple of other options...  they can enter the Skilled Category, where measuring is not required, therefore there is no need for a card, or they can keep their signed measurement form and present it in lieu of a card when asked at trials.

Regards,
Becky
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: KarissaKS on November 13, 2013, 11:44:09 AM
Okay, so to whom are we required to "prove" our dogs' height? I don't need to send anything to NADAC to verify that when I run my dog at 12" Proficient we are in the correct class? Or do I need to send a copy of the form to the NADAC office so they know we're legit? Is it only the trial secretaries that will need to see the height form in lieu of an official card from NADAC? Are trial secretaries going to know that it's okay, per you, to show this instead of a card?

I've never really understood why we "trust" people to enter the correct height class in Skilled but not Proficient... Not that I'm saying no dogs should get measured -- but perhaps that all dogs should get measured...

I have a binder that I take to every trial, so it is no hardship for me to keep the measurement form long-term. Glad to hear that is a viable option.
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Sharon Nelson on November 13, 2013, 12:53:59 PM
Okay, so to whom are we required to "prove" our dogs' height? I don't need to send anything to NADAC to verify that when I run my dog at 12" Proficient we are in the correct class? Or do I need to send a copy of the form to the NADAC office so they know we're legit? Is it only the trial secretaries that will need to see the height form in lieu of an official card from NADAC? Are trial secretaries going to know that it's okay, per you, to show this instead of a card?

I've never really understood why we "trust" people to enter the correct height class in Skilled but not Proficient... Not that I'm saying no dogs should get measured -- but perhaps that all dogs should get measured...

I have a binder that I take to every trial, so it is no hardship for me to keep the measurement form long-term. Glad to hear that is a viable option.

You must show your signed height form to every trial secretary for each trial you enter.  Your other option is to be measured at each trial.

You can consider it a tax, but those are words of your choosing and not at all a representative of what it is.  If you want the convenience of a laminated card to show or photocopy to the trial secretary, that is your "choice" but it is not a requirement.

Other venues require you to have a height card, NADAC does not.  If YOU choose to have a height card, then that is your choice........ it is just that a "choice".... not a requirement and not a tax.

Sharon
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: KarissaKS on November 13, 2013, 01:08:53 PM
My apologies, I never knew it was a "choice" to not get a height card.

Convenience or not, it's still something that other organizations provide with the price of registration...

So to confirm, NADAC does not care what my dog actually measures and I do not need to send a copy of the signed measurement form to the NADAC office?
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Sharon Nelson on November 13, 2013, 01:19:08 PM
My apologies, I never knew it was a "choice" to not get a height card.

Convenience or not, it's still something that other organizations provide with the price of registration...

So to confirm, NADAC does not care what my dog actually measures and I do not need to send a copy of the signed measurement form to the NADAC office?

I certainly don't understand your remarks that "NADAC does not care what my dog actually measures"............

You must measure your dog at each trial or have a signed measurement form or have a height card.  If we didn't care what your dog measures then you wouldn't have to have any of the above, but you do and must have some proof of what your dog measures.

Sharon
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Sharon Nelson on November 13, 2013, 01:22:49 PM

So to confirm, NADAC does not care what my dog actually measures and I do not need to send a copy of the signed measurement form to the NADAC office?

NADAC does get confirmation of your dog's correct height group, each and every trial that you enter.  All we have to do is look at the height group you are competing within, where a judge and show committee have validated the height group you are within. 

The only question is about your personal choice of how that is validated.  Get measured at every trial, have a height card, or carry around a signed measurement sheet.  Your choice of validation is just that, your choice.  But NADAC will get validation of your dog's height group.

Sharon
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: KarissaKS on November 13, 2013, 01:26:48 PM
My dogs have their height listed in their AKC and USDAA records. But then again, that is their actual measured height whereas NADAC really only cares that they fit under the 14" wicket to measure into the 12" class. Fair enough. Question answered. Thanks!
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: TheQuestKnight on November 13, 2013, 02:02:00 PM
With all due respect, EVERY agility venue has their protocols and their fees.......................and I've played the game in 8 of them in the past 20 years or so.....................

If you CHOOSE to play the game with a particular venue, you ACCEPT the attendant protocols and fees.................and over time, fees will increase to cover ever increasing expenses attached to the basic functions of that venue................

We ALWAYS have a CHOICE.......................we can either accept "what is" with any particular venue...............or pack up, take our "ball"..................and go play in someone else's court.....................

In all of the years that my wife and I have played agility here and there, the AVERAGE cost of our weekend (travel, motels, food, entry fees, etc.) was $400..................regardless of venue chosen................and we trialed quite a bit!!!!!!!!!!

If someone wanted an extra 10 or 20 dollars for this, that or the other thing........................it was a tiny drop in the OCEAN of money that we were spending on our and our dogs' "hobby"........................

It is ALWAYS possible to find something to complain about......................no matter which subject someone chooses to analyze; but for the sake of all reasonable people everywhere.......................make your complaint about a "mountain"...........................and NOT a "molehill" of one's own creation.......................heck, the moles didn't even raise the level of the dirt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are NADAC members/associates because we CHOOSE to "do the right thing", in our humble opinion..............even though all of our "kids" play the game in skilled.................and we really don't take advantage of the other benefits of being a member/associate..........................

I EASILY "fritter away" 20 bucks and more on a montly, and sometimes weekly basis.  NADAC, of ALL of the agility venues, gives a higher return on investment than ANY other venue.........................

Life is what you make......................if you choose "sour grapes"....................that is what you will harvest..................personally, I prefer mine to mature, ferment, "settle out" for bottling and to be given time to age to perfection..................................

Many NADAC "wines" have been aging for 20 years..........................and they are "perfect".....................

Let us not permit the "whines" to cheapen the "wines".........................

"Aged to perfection"............................that is NADAC; but there are also younger wines in the cellar that are aging.........................and the agility "winery" that NADAC is, will continue to offer wonderful vintages for many, many years to come............................

Slainte!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Al & Pellinore
   
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: fbrazeil on November 13, 2013, 02:48:13 PM
I believe that once you are measured under a given Trial Secretary, you do not have to be measured again for any Trial under that Trial Secretary. Isn't that correct? There are only a handful of Trial Secretaries in our area, so it's not a big deal.

However, I don't know if this applies if your dog is under two years old. You might have to be measured each trial until your dog turns two. Is that correct? ( I could easily be thinking of a different venue.)
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Sharon Nelson on November 13, 2013, 02:58:32 PM
I believe that once you are measured under a given Trial Secretary, you do not have to be measured again for any Trial under that Trial Secretary. Isn't that correct? There are only a handful of Trial Secretaries in our area, so it's not a big deal.

However, I don't know if this applies if your dog is under two years old. You might have to be measured each trial until your dog turns two. Is that correct? ( I could easily be thinking of a different venue.)

That is not correct and should be reported if a trial secretary is extending "personal" rules for their trials.  A judge should have reported them, unless the judge was told that these special dogs didn't need to be measured.  An exhibitor must have a valid height card, or a fully signed measurement sheet or be measured at every trial if they are within the group to be measured.

Sharon
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on November 13, 2013, 05:58:16 PM
I believe that once you are measured under a given Trial Secretary, you do not have to be measured again for any Trial under that Trial Secretary. Isn't that correct? There are only a handful of Trial Secretaries in our area, so it's not a big deal.

However, I don't know if this applies if your dog is under two years old. You might have to be measured each trial until your dog turns two. Is that correct? ( I could easily be thinking of a different venue.)

That is not correct and should be reported if a trial secretary is extending "personal" rules for their trials.  A judge should have reported them, unless the judge was told that these special dogs didn't need to be measured.  An exhibitor must have a valid height card, or a fully signed measurement sheet or be measured at every trial if they are within the group to be measured.

Sharon

Can the trial secretary of a club keep a copy of your height card, thus eliminating the need to show it every time you trial with that club? 


Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Sharon Nelson on November 13, 2013, 06:09:18 PM

Can the trial secretary of a club keep a copy of your height card, thus eliminating the need to show it every time you trial with that club?

A height card, yes, definitely!

Sharon
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: fbrazeil on November 13, 2013, 06:41:21 PM
Can a Trial Secretary keep a copy of a fully signed measurement sheet, thus eliminating the need to show it every time you trial with that Trial Secretary? (Which is what I was trying to say previously.)
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Sharon Nelson on November 13, 2013, 09:02:01 PM
Can a Trial Secretary keep a copy of a fully signed measurement sheet, thus eliminating the need to show it every time you trial with that Trial Secretary? (Which is what I was trying to say previously.)

Yes, they could!!

Sharon
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: TSacks on November 14, 2013, 11:12:35 AM
Question regarding measuring, as a Trial Secretary.  Now that so many folks have started new dogs in Skilled rather than Proficient, many dogs in our database have never been measured.  Some folks seem to pick the height they want to rump and then estimate their dogs height to correspond with that category.  Given that without a real measurement, it can be hard for many folks to come within an inch on just a guess, and if that particular inch happens to be at a cutoff point, I think that by not having skilled dogs measured if they hadn't previously been measured in profiecent, there is no longer a valid system to accurately separate dogs into the correct jump categries.
I'm not saying that there has to be one, but I don't understand why a profiecent dog has to be measured to prove it is eligible to jump in a certain height, but a skilled dog doesn't and can easily be entered in 16" when it should be 12" etc.
Any thought to doing away with manditory measurements for everyone??

Regards,
Tanya
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Sharon Nelson on November 14, 2013, 05:53:21 PM
Question regarding measuring, as a Trial Secretary.  Now that so many folks have started new dogs in Skilled rather than Proficient, many dogs in our database have never been measured.  Some folks seem to pick the height they want to rump and then estimate their dogs height to correspond with that category.  Given that without a real measurement, it can be hard for many folks to come within an inch on just a guess, and if that particular inch happens to be at a cutoff point, I think that by not having skilled dogs measured if they hadn't previously been measured in profiecent, there is no longer a valid system to accurately separate dogs into the correct jump categries.
I'm not saying that there has to be one, but I don't understand why a profiecent dog has to be measured to prove it is eligible to jump in a certain height, but a skilled dog doesn't and can easily be entered in 16" when it should be 12" etc.
Any thought to doing away with manditory measurements for everyone??

Regards,
Tanya

It is time to review those guidelines.  When those were put into place "Skilled" was NOT the common choice!  There were so few in Skilled that there weren't any concerns.  They were all obviously large dogs jumping 16" instead of 20".   As more and more people saw the benefits of running Skilled and let go of some of the misconception that dogs must jump the same height in all venues, then more and more and more switched to Skilled.

Now it is very common for the majority of entries to be Skilled.    The Championships are very heavy on the Skilled end of entries, in fact, there are few Proficient entries.

Now we see all heights of dogs entering Skilled, not just big dogs.  So, yes, in 2014 when we get the website and such caught up, we will review the measuring requirements.

What a great problem!  So many dogs in Skilled that we need to review the guidelines!  That is an awesome problem to have.

Sharon
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: MichelleWhall on November 14, 2013, 07:18:36 PM
I personally as a trial secretary have MANY height cards on file!  That being said I also would like to see the Skilled dogs have to be measured. 

Michelle
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Amy McGovern on November 15, 2013, 07:43:58 AM
There is nothing stopping skilled dogs from being measured, if the owners are unsure of the right height.  I have done it for mine, just to be sure I was jumping correctly (especially for the one who is about 1mm under the wicket!).  I wanted to be honest in my entries and the judges who measured never minded me checking.  We did it twice (two different judges), just to be sure (since the one is so close).

-Amy and the schnauzer pack
Title: Re: A "tax" for running Proficient?
Post by: Sharon Nelson on November 15, 2013, 10:59:58 AM
There is nothing stopping skilled dogs from being measured, if the owners are unsure of the right height.  I have done it for mine, just to be sure I was jumping correctly (especially for the one who is about 1mm under the wicket!).  I wanted to be honest in my entries and the judges who measured never minded me checking.  We did it twice (two different judges), just to be sure (since the one is so close).

-Amy and the schnauzer pack

That is correct, Amy!  And in many cases, a judge will ask to measure a dog that appears to be at an incorrect height.  I have measured many a dog through the years when I questioned why they were at the height they were.

Sharon