NADAC Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on May 29, 2014, 02:18:12 PM
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What can we do as trainers, handlers and clubs to stop dogs from slipping in tunnels?
I see dog after dog (including my own, but not only my dogs) slipping in tunnels ..especially the 20 foot tunnel under the dog walk. However, they also slip when the tunnel is more J shaped and C shaped.
I love having the barrel as an option, but obviously that can't happen under the dog walk :)
So, as a trainer---what can I do??
as a handler..what can I do???
As a club..what can I do????
My sister and I recently set CATS jumpers which has a tunnel in it. The tunnel was set more as a J than a C... and out of 4 dogs I ran on it, Rev (20 month old) fell pretty hard but his brother did not. My sister's Novice dog also fell. Tandem (my elite dog) did not fall nor did Chrissy's elite dog. Here is Rev's Nov jumpers run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sspvDGbRd_s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sspvDGbRd_s) and here is his brother's elite jumpers run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvHkMryo-1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvHkMryo-1s) and Tandem's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvjcBTbrsW0. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvjcBTbrsW0.) They both came out fine.... but there are many times when Tandem falls in tunnels and he is really light on his feet.
I recently had a conversation with a chiropractor and she said that out of all the dogs she adjusts regularly, the fast purely NADAC dogs seem to be more out of whack that other multi-venue dogs and she believes it is because of tunnels / tunnelers!
I am going to order a new 20 foot tunnel and order a lighter colored tunnel. I currently have a green one and it is 'dark'... however dogs still fall in my bright yellow tunnels.
And I cannot afford to go out and buy enough sure grip tunnels. A 20 foot sure grip tunnel is $500.... and I still may buy one, but at this time I cannot afford to buy 9 sure grip tunnels.
Thoughts????
lisa
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Following.
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What can we do as trainers, handlers and clubs to stop dogs from slipping in tunnels?
I see dog after dog (including my own, but not only my dogs) slipping in tunnels ..especially the 20 foot tunnel under the dog walk. However, they also slip when the tunnel is more J shaped and C shaped.
I love having the barrel as an option, but obviously that can't happen under the dog walk :)
So, as a trainer---what can I do??
as a handler..what can I do???
As a club..what can I do????
Thoughts????
lisa
As a trainer, I don't allow the reckless high speed in the tunnels that causes the falling and slipping. If a dog starts to get over stimulated by the tunnels and wants to start riding the sides of the tunnels to help speed them up more, I work a session of tunnelers with no tunnel bags on them. They don't get hurt and they find out fast that they cannot bank the tunnels.
It is my job to keep them safe. It is my job to help teach them to respect equipment. Just like they need to know how to stay on a 12" wide plank without falling off. it is their job to run on the "bottom" of the tunnels and not bank on the sides.
Some handlers have started pushing so hard for speed they also risk injury for their dogs in the need for higher run indexes and more and more speed. If dogs run on the bottoms of the tunnels, the chance of slipping or falling is dramatically reduced.
The more the handlers push them, the more likely they will learn to bank the tunnels. It will create more "wins" and higher run indexes, but is it worth the dog's health and body for the sake of winning a class or getting the best run index?
I have a dog that can easily get 110 run indexes in Tunnelers...... but she banks the tunnels when she does. I am a much happier person with a 103-105 run index and a sound dog. When the run indexes start to creep up towards the 105+ times, then I will train a session without tunnels bags and get her back into the center of the tunnels and off the sides of them.
If they try to bank the sides the tunnel rolls a little bit and they get their feet back underneath themselves. Better safe then sorry. I don't set them to where they can roll up against anything.
Below is an example of a Tunnelers run. Hopefully you can see that not one tunnel is ever moved and never needs to be reset after running. The dog still earns an easy 104+ run index and every tunnel is entered in the center of the tunnel and the exit is in the center of the tunnel, no banking on the sides of the tunnels.
http://youtu.be/UWEHf5WNG_U (http://youtu.be/UWEHf5WNG_U)
JMHO
Sharon
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I do think that the increased desire for speed will mean dogs potentially will slip. So I think the first step towards solution is to not push the already fast dog to be faster. Just as we teach a dog to safely traverse the narrow plank of a Dog walk we need to teach them to remain in control of their bodies through tunnels. I think tunnels are probably the least "trained to be performed safely obstacle" in agility and yet to my mind potentially one of the most potentially risky obstacles. People see them as easy...on the ground and something to go faster and faster through. Speed is great...speed is wonderful but we should always be ensuring that the speed is not so great as for our dogs to lose control of their bodies and stay safe. We all hear people run courses saying "Easy" to their fast dogs over the Dog walk but the opposite when fast dogs are running tunnels...there seems to me more speed pushing driving commands.
I imagine the dogs the chiro referenced in regards to tunnels and tunnelers more than likely indulge in many other contributing to the issue behaviours.
Speed is great and thrilling and wonderful.....but I think we all need to ensure that we are not teetering between speed and recklessness.
In regards to the sure grip tunnels...I haven't seen or used them.
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Interesting. Do you have any video of you training tunnels without bags? Do you do this with C shaped tunnels also??
I really don't see many dogs falling in tunnelers as it is usually straight or slightly curved tunnels :) On the occasion we have a tight C shaped tunnel, I usually don't run in this as I don't like them. The tunnelers course you posted above is a great example... most tunnels are straight or slightly curved. I don't think would see many dogs falling in this course either.
I don't think it is always a function of pushing for speed. You can see in the videos I posted I am not pushing for speed. Heck I never push for speed in jumpers !! I am happy if I get through the course clean :) Tunnelers is the only course that I will 'push' for speed but in reality it means I actually run the whole time instead of using more distance like I do in other classes. And my dogs rarely fall in tunnelers.
Many times the course is hoop tunnel under the dog walk.... dog falls in the tunnel so not 'much' speed going in.....
And it is not always the fast dogs that are falling....there are smaller 'slower' dogs that fall too..... but again that could be a function of banking off the tunnel.
I value your opinion and will give it a try. I will video and see how it goes !
But are there other things as well we can be doing???
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This may seem like a semantic distinction, but I watched the videos in the original post and my observation is that it seems the novice dog stumbled instead of slipped. I consider slipping as a loss of traction and I consider a stumble as a misstep or misjudgement. Walking on an icy sidewalk, that's slipping. But imagine someone climbing a set of stairs in the dark and thinking there is one more step than there actually is, that's a stumble. There is nothing wrong with the stairs, that person just misjudged the last step. This dog seemed to be looking to the inside of the turn while stepping to the outside of the turn and then stumbled because it tried to continue stepping on the side of the tunnel after the tunnel ended. In my opinion, I don't think it was an issue of a loss of traction or a faulty tunnel surface. I think the young dog was using the side of the tunnel and did not recognize at the end of the tunnel that there is no more side to step on. It basically assumed a surface would be there, and it wasn't. Again, this is based on what I saw in the video. Hope that helps!
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I was fortunate enough to watch this run in person. It was awesome and awe inspiring, but at no point did I feel like Busi was out of control or in danger of hurting herself. I hadn't really thought about where she was running in the tunnels, but that makes perfect sense. Thanks for putting that out there.
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Interesting. Do you have any video of you training tunnels without bags?
Hi Lisa,
I may have some video of my baby dog Patch learning tunnels....I used the black mesh fiskar composting barrels as a first tunnel...nice and short.....can lay it on its side without bags....and a little see through so I can see what she is doing. If she banks it moves a little but not so much that it worries me but enough that she makes sure she runs on the base next pass through it. I am hoping this will carry through to grown up tunnels :)
BTW watching Sharon use a composting barrel on its side on the seminar list is what made me use it
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I recently had a conversation with a chiropractor and she said that out of all the dogs she adjusts regularly, the fast purely NADAC dogs seem to be more out of whack that other multi-venue dogs and she believes it is because of tunnels / tunnelers!
lisa
I can't imagine a professional chiropractor making venue specific claims, and I would wonder about them if they do talk about others in such a way. The professionals I have met wouldn't say "this venue causes this" or "this venue causes that".... it isn't a venue that causes it, it is training that predisposes dogs to injury. If a dog is reckless in tunnel performance then yes, NADAC will be more instances of injury because they have a "tunneling" class and people want to win.
If a dog jump in a reckless manner, then Jumpers will cause that dog to have the greatest risk when they run in a Jumpers class, although any class with a jump has potential for injury. If a dog runs into hoops, then Hoopers will cause the greatest injuries, although any class with a single hoop would come with a risk for that dog. If a dog performs tunnels in an unsafe manner, then Tunnelers is the class with the greatest risk, although any class with a tunnel on the course has an element of risk within the run.
As a "NADAC" only person, I might believe the above statement just because of so many training methods that push dogs to run as fast as possible through tunnels with total disregard to what they are physically doing to the dog's body as they push the dogs to bank the sides of tunnels. Dogs that bank tunnels are going to fall occasionally, that is basic math. They can't always be in the perfect stride to make the curves correctly or exit perfectly when they are banking. They are going to fall when that stride isn't perfect when they hit the turns or hit an exit. Other times they are going to be in the correct part of a stride and they will make the turns and exit just fine. And on those runs they will post the fastest times and win that day. When it doesn't work out so well, they might fall and they might be out of whack due to the torqueing...... but those are handlers choices by whatever training methods they use and what the goals are for the team.
So many handlers push so hard for speed in tunnels and don't realize the risk that they are putting on their dogs. Others don't even push at all, but the dogs are of the type that they will push themselves for maximum speed.
If a dog jumps recklessly, handlers train to improve that performance. If a dog runs across a dog walk recklessly, a handler will work to improve that performance. If a dog performs tunnels recklessly, handlers smile about how fast their dogs are!
We have several in our area and they are FAST!!! They are pushed and the handlers are so excited about how fast they are. And then they are laid up while they recover from soft tissue injuries and when they return they are pushed again and then they go off to heal again for awhile. Sometimes it is sad to hear all of the people that are so excited about a dog that runs through tunnels and then the entire course needs to be rebuilt due to the destruction caused by their tunnel performance.... I find it sad to see the dogs punish their bodies in such a manner. But I am in the minority.
I find it encouraging to see a trainer wanting input on how to perform tunnels in a safe manner.
I do feel that the non-skid tunnels will cause more injuries than ever before. They will allow the dogs to be even more reckless.
Sharon
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"They will allow the dogs to be even more reckless."
This is more or less why I recently recommended that a person "not" purchase one for their home training. I fear that their dogs will become used to handling tunnels in manner that may not be suitable for the "regular" tunnels which they will encounter at other training facilities and at trials.
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I'm curious - what's a "non-skid" tunnel? Haven't heard about them...
Thanks,
Kyle
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I have a small dog (11.5" and 11-12 lbs) who LOVES his tunnels. He will never have a 100DRI because his stride just isn't long enough to compete with those 12P dogs, but he is consistently in the high 80's and low 90's so for his little legs he is booking. :-) As a novice dog, I often heard a "thunk" in the tunnel. I imagine it was because he would bank off the side of the tunnel and being so small he would slide off the side towards the end and stumble. He never hurt himself, but I have noticed that as he progressed and learned the game more, he seems to do this less and less. I have also noticed that his turns out of the tunnels (especially in tunnelers) are a bit wider to allow him NOT to have to bank on the tunnel to get the super-tight turn. I do notice that we have more of an issue when we are on grass or dirt than I turf. I belive it is because his paws are either wet from the grass or dusty from the dirt on the ground so he losed some traction.
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I'm curious - what's a "non-skid" tunnel? Haven't heard about them...
Thanks,
Kyle
There are a newer type of tunnel that is coated on the inside with a non-skid surface so the dogs don't slip in them. I have not seen one in person and haven't been willing to put out the money to see one. I really wish that dogs would run safer inside a tunnel instead of encouraging even more speed. They might be great, I don't know, as I have no experience with them.
They weigh a bit more (62-78 lbs) and cost a bit more ($370-$450 each)
http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3747&ParentCat=761 (http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3747&ParentCat=761)
Sharon
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My sister and I recently set CATS jumpers which has a tunnel in it. The tunnel was set more as a J than a C... and out of 4 dogs I ran on it, Rev (20 month old) fell pretty hard but his brother did not. My sister's Novice dog also fell. Tandem (my elite dog) did not fall nor did Chrissy's elite dog. Here is Rev's Nov jumpers run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sspvDGbRd_s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sspvDGbRd_s) and here is his brother's elite jumpers run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvHkMryo-1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvHkMryo-1s) and Tandem's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvjcBTbrsW0. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvjcBTbrsW0.) They both came out fine.... but there are many times when Tandem falls in tunnels and he is really light on his feet.
Thoughts????
lisa
Nice set of dogs! The only one that had issues in the run is the one that came out banked on the side of the tunnel on this particular run.
Sharon
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I am rethinking the nonskid tunnels also. Reminds me of when I first got rubber contacts and realized that I would only run on rubber...even if I only did my own trials. I know dogs were so much faster and confident on rubber. I imagine the nonskid tunnels would be similar. So unless every trial that I attend has all nonskid tunnels, I don't want to train with them.
I really want to train my dogs safely..thus my question. I will take slower more safe executions!
I honestly never thought about how to train the execution of a tunnel. I know to cue before the tunnel to let my dog know where to go next....but never thought about training it besides running through it.
Btw, the chiropractor was not my chiro... Don't want Kaite to get bad rap. It was in a conversation with another chiro. She certainly did not mean any disrespect but was observation .
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So I went out and did a quick training session with 2 tunnels without bags. I used Tandem (4 year old) Rev and JP7 (20 months).
https://www.youtube.com/my_videos?o=U (https://www.youtube.com/my_videos?o=U)
straight tunnels all 3 were fine.
Once I curved the tunnel, tt seemed as though there entrances were ‘worse’ and caused more movement than their exits.
Rev did great and hardly moved the tunnels…and he is the one that banked and fell in the CATS jumpers course.
JP moved the tunnels the most. He really moved the entrances so that the tunnels moved a lot. his exits were good.
Next time i do this, I will point the video camera towards the entrances so I can see what is going on.
So Sharon-- am I am the right track here??? Do I just keep these type exercises until they learn not to bank??
Thanks so much for your input ! I really appreciate it as do my dogs !!!!
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Wrong video link; here is the correct one: http://youtu.be/lw2b1C_8o_Q (http://youtu.be/lw2b1C_8o_Q)
Comments anyone??
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Hi..............
Interesting discussion.................
ALL of our dogs, with the exception of Gael, have "banked" tunnels, especially curved ones....................and WITHOUT "encouragement for more speed" from us....................they just LOVED tunnels..................and needed no more motivation than that!!!!!!!!!!! We would have LOVED IT if they took their paw off of the accelerator a bit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I believe that there are also many other considerations beyond pure speed causing slips and falls......................
The following is not a complete list; but will perhaps provide "food for thought"...............
Hairy paw pads
Toe nail length
Humidity
Ground moisture being transferred into the tunnel via the dogs' paws
Surface material in the tunnels (sand, sawdust, dirt, etc.)
Interior tunnel "health", such as the presence of any mold, mildew or algae (all are very slippery)
Distance between the tunnel's support "rings"
Uneven/irregular ring surfaces
ALL of our tunnel-driven kids are and have been "semi-suicidal" and TOTALLY OVER THE TOP when it came to HAVING FUN doing something that they enjoyed!!!!!!!!!!!
........................and sometimes that resulted in injuries.........................and that kind of "came with the territory" given their personalities...................
It would have been TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE and UNFORGIVEABLE on our part to push our already reckless, speed demons for more speed.............................yet, unfortunately, we have seen it done all to often........................and for what?????????????? A "time" that is 20 seconds under SCT instead of 15?????????? What's the prize???????????? A different color placement ribbon????????????? I guess that I just don't understand...........................
Up to now, all of our agility kids have been Border Collies.........................our "new addition" is a Long-haired miniature dachshund, Chow chow, Siberian husky, Rottweiler & German shepherd dog mix..........................
Neither I nor my wife "push for speed"...........................OH!.................well, we did encourage Gael to pick up the pace every now and then when she got into her "royal highness, princess trot" <G>....................because it's been said soooooooooooooooooooooo often in sports........................one can NOT train or teach speed.........................it's either "there" or it "isn't"...............................the only thing that trainers/coaches can successfully do is INHIBIT the speed that is there naturally.......................
Our driven dogs would have tried to run through a brick wall if we had asked them to try..................that's just how devoted they were.......................and how strong their "work ethic" was.....................but what would have been the point??????????
If you ask, I won't be able to tell you exactly how we did this; but our dogs have learned to "trust their paws".....................in other words, to adapt and ADJUST to the footing that they feel........................and because we've NEVER paid attention to "yards per second" or stuff like that, we were always happy to "take" all that our kids "gave" us.....................knowing that it was their best effort under the circumstances.....................
OK............I know...................some folks need to know how to train..........................some need seek the "Holy Grail" of perfectly safe equipment........................and like the "Holy Grail", it doesn't exist.................and I'm talking a "philosophical approach" that gives the dog the ability to adjust to conditions as the dog sees fit..........................
Our dogs KNOW and UNDERSTAND all that we'd LIKE them to do for us..........................we need to ACKNOWLEDGE that.............................and TRUST that our dogs will do their best to that end.
It's an old song................some of you may still remember Bobby McFerrin.................
"Don't worry........................be happy......................."
Hugs & wags,
Al, Barb, Gael, Pelli and The Gr8 K8 (Caitlin), aka Castle Camelot
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First and foremost I will admit that this is one of those things that pushes my buttons. I hate to see dogs "crash" tunnels and I hate to see handlers/clubs just load tunnels down with bags because their dog crashes thru them.
I have rubber tunnels that I use for my trials. One because they do have a better grip for the dogs and two they hold their "shape" better. BUT I have a couple old NTIs and some of the Schamberger (I cant remember the name or how to spell it) tunnels (they are not rubber). I use the NTI and other type at home for classes and practice (they are lighter to carry around). I also have all these different types because I want my dogs to understand that not every tunnel will be rubber or have that grip. I also NEVER double bag at home. Yes sometimes Saige will hit one harder then I like and I will have to walk out and "fix" it but I would rather her know that a tunnel could potentially come out from under her and she needs to pay attention and not just fling herself thru them. She rarely moves a tunnel that is double bagged but yes on occasion she will ... I don't like it so I make sure she sees a single bagged tunnel at home if she starts being reckless.
My young pup saw a tunnel for the first time when she was I think 7 or 8 months old. I tried really hard to not do much training with a tunnel.... for one I am lazy so bringing out hoops, gates, and barrels was much easier than hauling out a tunnel or two. She is so far pretty thoughtful about tunnels (she has only been to one trial :) ) but if she starts to treat them disrespectful I will for sure just single bag or if I have to I will put her thru one that is not bagged :-\ .
I have said for years that I would love to see some dogs hit about 3 unbagged tunnels to get their attention. Yes I strongly believe dogs need to take responsibility for performing the obstacles but we need to make sure they know how to perform them safely.
I honestly don't think this will ever be a subject that "goes" away... I have been fighting this fight for years. I have just decided that I cant win with others but I sure can do what I can to keep my dogs as safe as possible, keep my trials as safe as possible for exhibitors dogs, and do what I can when judging like not allowing triple bagged tunnels and set as well as I can set a tunnel.
JMHO in my little minority corner :(
BTW Lisa I thought all your dogs but the one looked fine in the tunnel in those videos. The one was a young dog that just needs to understand that a tunnel could potentially move out from under him if he isn't "careful" :)
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So I went out and did a quick training session with 2 tunnels without bags. I used Tandem (4 year old) Rev and JP7 (20 months).
straight tunnels all 3 were fine.
Once I curved the tunnel, tt seemed as though there entrances were ‘worse’ and caused more movement than their exits.
Rev did great and hardly moved the tunnels…and he is the one that banked and fell in the CATS jumpers course.
JP moved the tunnels the most. He really moved the entrances so that the tunnels moved a lot. his exits were good.
Next time i do this, I will point the video camera towards the entrances so I can see what is going on.
So Sharon-- am I am the right track here??? Do I just keep these type exercises until they learn not to bank??
Thanks so much for your input ! I really appreciate it as do my dogs !!!!
Lisa I am impressed with your observations and your desire to have a fast, sound dog!! Nice sons of Tandem!
Sharon
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Lisa that is awesome!! Loved watching it all in slo mo!! Here is my opinion for what it is worth.... I think since Tandem is older and has had more years of learning to use tunnels to bank he had a harder time entering the tunnels because he was trying to bank and couldnt so it was really moving the tunnel. The young boys looked like they were really trying to to not move the tunnel. Is JP7 a bit bigger and stronger then Rev?? It appears so and it looks like he was trying to learn to bank but couldnt and Rev was just running thru the tunnels.... I think I got the names right!!!
Very cool to watch... thanks for sharing ;D
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Jeannie-- you got em right :) JP is about 2 inches taller and at least 4 inches longer that Rev. he definitely is more powerful.
Sharon-- Sons of Synergy and Trae:) Tandem is the uncle !!
So should I keep doing exercises like this?? And they will learn not to bank???
Definitely won't be double bagging at home anymore....
THANKS !!!
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Sharon-- Sons of Synergy and Trae:) Tandem is the uncle !!
THANKS !!!
I knew that the moment I het send and meant to go back and correct that and got busy doing other stuff. Thanks for keeping me straight!!
Sharon
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I would like to add to this discussion a criticism of the type of tunnel that's constructed with a seam at each rib, and the seam allowance of stiff plastic sticks up all around the inside of the tunnel. Not only is this a difficult and uncomfortable surface for a dog to run on, and a trip hazard for smaller dogs, but the seam allowances create deep channels which trap dirt which then makes the inside of the tunnels slippery and continues to build up with every next dog. My little Sheltie recently fell three times in one trial where these tunnels are used. I wish it were required that the inside of a tunnel be smooth. We certainly wouldn't allow inch-high strips of plastic projecting from the dogwalk, a-frame, or arena footing.
Diane
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Has anyone else tried this?? I did another training session with no bags last week and video the entrances. (I am almost out of data so can't post til next month or I go to wifi). My dogs still were rolling the tunnel. Last weekend my dogs did not fall, but they did bank as tunnels needed to be fixed ...so ... I realize e I have only done this twice....and will try again next month when iget home and back to training......I wonder how long it will take for them to understand not to bank..
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Has anyone else tried this?? I did another training session with no bags last week and video the entrances. (I am almost out of data so can't post til next month or I go to wifi). My dogs still were rolling the tunnel. Last weekend my dogs did not fall, but they did bank as tunnels needed to be fixed ...so ... I realize e I have only done this twice....and will try again next month when iget home and back to training......I wonder how long it will take for them to understand not to bank..
Lisa, well done. Just the fact that they didn't fall down in the last trial is awesome!
Now put 10 lb bags on the tunnels and do one or two training sessions. So they know they are "bagged" but not immovable.
I applaud you for trying to keep your dogs safe! All of my young dogs now learn without bags so the habit never gets started. Fast and safe.
Sharon
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Thanks Sharon!!
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I'm trying to picture what this looks like and why this step. Are you putting 10 bags spaced out along a curved tunnel? And why does putting that many bags along the tunnel "look" differently to them than the normal bags just at the ends and/or how/why do they react/run differently with it this way. Just not grasping the point of this - though I absolutely know there is one - I'm just dense I guess :)
Lisa, well done. Just the fact that they didn't fall down in the last trial is awesome!
Now put 10 lb bags on the tunnels and do one or two training sessions. So they know they are "bagged" but not immovable.
I applaud you for trying to keep your dogs safe! All of my young dogs now learn without bags so the habit never gets started. Fast and safe.
Sharon
[/quote]
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I'm trying to picture what this looks like and why this step. Are you putting 10 bags spaced out along a curved tunnel? And why does putting that many bags along the tunnel "look" differently to them than the normal bags just at the ends and/or how/why do they react/run differently with it this way. Just not grasping the point of this - though I absolutely know there is one - I'm just dense I guess :)
I never mentioned putting tunnel bags along the tunnel. They would be put at the entrance and exit, just like normal.
Sharon
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She said 10 pound bags, not 10 bags.
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Oh, thanks. 10 POUND bags. My eyes played tricks on me. Thanks ;D
She said 10 pound bags, not 10 bags.
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LOVE IT! I just bought the first one for Agility Junkies and I am convinced that one by one I will replace as many as I can with them. The one I have weighs a whopping 68 pounds and that's at 15', but the difference is remarkable. They are built tougher and the inside liner is textured. There is a noticeable difference in performance for my dog.