NADAC Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: MSito on August 31, 2015, 07:36:58 AM

Title: Elite times
Post by: MSito on August 31, 2015, 07:36:58 AM
I'm probably going to get a lot of flack, but I'm getting discouraged with the course times. Elite tunnelers at the CAT Trial my dogs yps was 4.31. She was over time by over a second. I guess I need to just keep her in novice. I'm discouraged. Melinda Sito
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: James Bell on August 31, 2015, 08:26:36 AM
No flack here, and no desire to discourage.

However, the various levels do have expected standards of performance based upon YPS for each type of course. For Tunnelers, a novice dog must run the course at an avg speed of 4.0 YPS or better, an open dog 4.5, and an elite dog 5.0. Some allowances are made for vet dogs or handlers (10%).

The full table of required performance metrics per course type can be found on the NADAC website in the Exhibitors Handbook.

The point to note here is that while tunnelers does seem to be a free-for-all, tennis-balls-to-the-wall (crafty sensor avoidance there :-)) speed fest, like many of the other courses it is about efficiency primarily. 

In the final analysis though, as I harp on every time I do a briefing, the point of this sport is to have fun with your dogs. And if your dog is having fun regardless of the time tally, how can you not? :-)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: James Bell on August 31, 2015, 08:43:19 AM
Oops! Let's not forget the time breaks for medium and small dogs!

The YPS above are for large dogs (20, 20+ measured). Medium (16) gets 10%, and small (<= 12) another 10%. All the details are in the Handbook. Just search for "yps".

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Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: MSito on August 31, 2015, 09:01:07 AM
Thanks, been with NADAC a long time and know the rules. I know to have fun with my dogs. I still question the times allowed and will probably just stay in Novice. She ran a beautiful course but, face it, we all like to "win" every once in awhile. She's a larger Border Collie I run in skilled level. Melinda Sito
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: KarissaKS on August 31, 2015, 11:58:00 AM
My "extra large" dog really struggled with making time in Elite Weavers for a long time. I really felt like it was hopeless because he was consistently 0.5-2.0 seconds over time, despite really giving it his all. He's a big guy, he can only move so fast through the poles and he has to duck to go through tunnels. So what did I do? I worked VERY HARD on making his runs as efficient as possible, getting very tight turns, and not wasting ANY yardage on the course. I found ways to stay ahead of him and show him where to go so that he was driving hard on every line.

He earned two Versatility NATCH awards before I retired him from running games.

I find a lot of dogs lose a lot of time with wide turns, especially out of tunnels. I'm guessing you can make up the time you need by creating a tighter path for your dog around the course.
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: Jean Sather (McCreight) on August 31, 2015, 02:48:59 PM
Another tip for increasing your yps -- set your dog up at the start as far back as possible from the entrance to the first tunnel.  Whether you lead out or run with your dog, you want them going into that first tunnel at maximum speed .....  and same with the finish, make sure you are not slowing down or "quitting" your handling going into the last tunnel. You want them driving through that last tunnel with equal speed.
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: Shirlene Clark on August 31, 2015, 03:55:28 PM
I'm probably going to get a lot of flack, but I'm getting discouraged with the course times. Elite tunnelers at the CAT Trial my dogs yps was 4.31. She was over time by over a second. I guess I need to just keep her in novice. I'm discouraged. Melinda Sito

Melinda another good tool is to video tape your runs.  Really assess the footage honestly afterwards and count the number of efficient exits to entrances for every single sequence.  If your dog is exiting the tunnel before she gets a cue to turn for the next entrance you will for sure be punished by the clock.  All your cues should be given as she enters not when she exits....so check video footage and see if inefficiency is costing you time.  If it is then take heart because with some work on tightening that up you may pick up some time.  Good luck and keep working on it.

Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: BeckyAH on August 31, 2015, 05:34:50 PM
I'm not elite, but after being .04 seconds under time on a tunneler's  (novice) run, I actually had a bit of a mental crisis wondering if my dog was ever, ever going to be fast enough to Q.  I mean - my dog ran and my dog ran FAST, darn it all, and I just couldn't see her running enough faster to EVER make time on an elite, or even open, course. 

Bottom line, and this isn't flack at all, for me it was me setting inefficient lines,  being slow with my cues,  ending up on parts of the course I had no business being (and thereby getting in my dog's way and costing us time) and generally just not being as good a handler as I should have been.

I have NO CLUE how much difference that will make in our time, but I'm looking forward to finding out at our next trial in a couple of weeks!  If I can hold my head together.  If my dog holds HER head together.  IF I don't get lost and all those assorted other thoughts.

NADAC is fast.  It's achievable but the real name of that game isn't making the dog run faster, it's making the dog run smoother, I think.   But again: newbie, here.
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: KathieT on August 31, 2015, 06:33:39 PM
I used to whine about weavers times.  Red always seemed to be just a bit over.  I saw a post by Sharon that said certain courses take more training/skills (paraphrasing here).  I took it to heart and we really trained weavers.  She got her V-NATCH almost 7 seconds under course time. 

Following the advice of the other posts and taping your runs, etc. might get your runs faster.

Kathie
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: dogrsqr on September 01, 2015, 05:24:02 AM
All I'm going to add is that some dogs just really don't like certain classes either.  We had a big Border Collie years ago that wasn't lightning fast, was fast enough and very consistent.  He did NOT like tunnelers.  You could actually see him start out fast and by the time he got to the 4th tunnel he would slow down.  It was like he thought "Oh it's that stupid game again.  I'll do it, but I don't really think it's that much fun". 

Gina Pizzo
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: Jean Sather (McCreight) on September 01, 2015, 07:09:48 AM
True that, Gina.  While I don't ever quit trying to improve as a handler, I think you do have to listen to and respect your dog, and adjust your own goals and expectations accordingly.  My first agility dog Kintla wasn't a great weaver, and Elite Jumpers proved to be just too tough for him, but he was the best Touch & Go dog ever ..... :-)  His medal for 800 lifetime points in Elite T&G is priceless to me ....
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: bill fehn on September 01, 2015, 06:40:31 PM
Melinda,

I am neither going to give you any flack nor do I think you should be discouraged. You have a dog that runs Tunnelers at 4.31 yps.  Entering novice versus elite will not change that. Your post reminds me of something I thought about several years ago and still cannot get my head around.  At that time I calculated how many different classifications there were for Tunnelers, and I believe I came up with 48 for the same course (the combination of novice, open, elite; standard, junior handler, veteran, and all the different height classes).  Personally, I see no reason for more than one classification. In bowling everyone bowls on the same “course” and the scoring is the same for everyone. Why not in agility? Some people cannot get over 100 while other bowl over 200 frequently. Like agility, it is a personal thing.  If you run in novice you will never have the thrill of Qing in Elite. My definition of an accomplishment is doing something today that you could not do yesterday.  Therefore, I would trade a collection of hundreds of novice Q ribbons for that one Elite Q. Do what you can to improve your time. Several others have made great suggestions. I have personal goals that I now know I will never reach, but I get great satisfaction when I look back, and see how far I have come.

Good luck,

Bill
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: TheQuestKnight on September 02, 2015, 07:37:57 AM
I'm probably going to get a lot of flack, but I'm getting discouraged with the course times. Elite tunnelers at the CAT Trial my dogs yps was 4.31. She was over time by over a second. I guess I need to just keep her in novice. I'm discouraged. Melinda Sito

Hi Melinda!

Nothing by empathy here!

It has been a few years since we have trialed due to various reasons; but in your post you didn't mention your girl's age.................her desire to do agility....................any physical issues that she might have, etc.; and those all have an impact on your performance as a team.

Our late Gael would have traded a frisbee or sheep for all of the agility in the world; but since her packmates really liked agility..........................and the entire pack went on our road trips.....................Gael wanted to do SOMETHING.............................and Tunnelers was her class of choice.  She still wasn't enthusiastic about it; but she did have FUN running the courses in her "Princess Trot".  In time, Gael eventually qualified in Open, so we "pursued" NADAC's "Extended Title" option in both Open..................and then in Novice as Gael got older..........................and we did similar things with our other furry kids, too.

OK, the ribbons and the titles/awards are for us........................the human half of the team, our furry kids don't care about them..............................all they care about is making us HAPPY!  To that end, We are 1,000% certain that your girl absolutely senses your discouragement......................and will do anything that she is able to do to make you happy again...........................

.........................but asking her to do something that she simply cannot do.....................be it physically or mentally, is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo NOT fair to her, IOurHO.

Many handlers with more knowledge and skill than us have offered many suggestions that may help you and your girl shave a second or two from your time........................maybe.....................

In our 20+ years of agility experience, we have found that it is mutually beneficial for each team member to have reasonable goals with reasonable expectations of being to achieve them.

NADAC offers soooooooooooo many wonderful options for setting personal team goals.......................and offers so many "perks" for doing so.............................

Life is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too short to worry about the "small stuff".......................our advice is to avoid the worry, the frustration and the stress that UNREASONABLE goals can cause.  By all means, CHALLENGE yourselves; but keep it reasonable, keep it real and keep it FUN for both you and your girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hugs & wags,

Al & Barb, Pelli & Katie in Ohio
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: MSito on September 05, 2015, 06:44:45 PM
Great feedback on my post, thank you, will be working on more efficiency. Had a good talk with my instructor to help with this.
My plan was never to go to champs with her, agility is a confidence builder for a very scared rehomed dog. A lot to think about weighing her desire, mental ability, etc. Some of the courses she is running full out with tight turns and we still don't make time. Other times it's obvious she's worried about the activity around the ring.  She's made huge strides this last year, no pun intended. So, regrouping and appreciating some very helpful thoughts on this subject.
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: pjcavin on September 08, 2015, 10:32:33 AM
Melinda, you and your girl (I'll leave her nameless as you did) HAVE made great strides and since I have the privilege of watching you two frequently, I also see great things in your future as a team.  Whether it's her confidence, her efficiency or general well being you have the right attitude and sense of her to make it happen.  You go girlies!
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: MSito on September 08, 2015, 10:58:56 AM
Oh thanks Patti, that means a lot. You've been able to watch her progress.  Thank you
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: Chris on Mushtown Road on September 09, 2015, 11:24:45 AM
Melinda,
Keep working on efficiency! And never let up on the last obstacle.

Chris in MN
whose Maggie went 18 months between Elite Jumpers Qs. Never give up!

Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: RobertStewart on September 10, 2015, 10:22:29 AM
Never get discouraged, NADAC is more about keeping you and your dog ENcouraged!

You don't HAVE to move up to Elite, you can stay at the Open level and keep getting those Q's

Moving back to Open, is NOT a bad thing or negative in any way, shape of form. I often keep my dogs at the Novice or Open levels just to make sure we are working well as a team, and having decent communication and solid connection with your dog. The epic fails there, have always been exclusively mine.

Remember NADAC has some amazing titles and extended awards you can earn Outstanding Open Tunnelers, Superior Open Tunnellers, etc. You are still accumulating points towards potential "Points" awards.That first 1,000 point award is an amazing GOAL!!! and Guess what, you can do it in Novice, or even Intro level classes! You never even have to enter open or Elite to obtain that. How amazing is that?!?

So, your instructor can def. help you with being more efficient in what you're doing, making your timing more crisp and clear.

Best of luck!

Robert


Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: MSito on September 10, 2015, 11:47:04 AM
That's my plan to stay in the lower levels. I'll try for an elite tunnel a few more times. I'm deliriously happy she's enjoying the game and eager to do agility. I think I need to give her more info and build her confidence to "go on" ahead of me.
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: KarissaKS on September 10, 2015, 12:01:28 PM
If you choose to go for the extended titles at the lower levels, be sure to occasionally check to see how your dog's time compares to the Elite requirements. As you continue to improve you will likely find that she is able to make Elite times. Once you feel comfortable knowing that you can do it, then you can move back to Elite at that time and continue your success.
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: BeckyAH on November 04, 2015, 07:17:35 AM
I'm not elite, but after being .04 seconds under time on a tunneler's  (novice) run, I actually had a bit of a mental crisis wondering if my dog was ever, ever going to be fast enough to Q.  I mean - my dog ran and my dog ran FAST, darn it all, and I just couldn't see her running enough faster to EVER make time on an elite, or even open, course. 

Bottom line, and this isn't flack at all, for me it was me setting inefficient lines,  being slow with my cues,  ending up on parts of the course I had no business being (and thereby getting in my dog's way and costing us time) and generally just not being as good a handler as I should have been.

I have NO CLUE how much difference that will make in our time, but I'm looking forward to finding out at our next trial in a couple of weeks! If I can hold my head together.  If my dog holds HER head together.  IF I don't get lost and all those assorted other thoughts.

NADAC is fast.  It's achievable but the real name of that game isn't making the dog run faster, it's making the dog run smoother, I think.   But again: newbie, here.

I wanted to update this just in case anyone else is interested.  My dog (runs 8")'s YPS in the run I mentioned above was 3.2.  That was missing the Q at novice by .004 of a second.   

She made time on a couple of more tunnelers runs and got those Qs.  Her Novice Title YPS was 4.4.  I don't think she really got all that much faster, though she did gain some with more confidence.  Mostly, it was just a much cleaner run and I was able to use a much longer lead out (long lead outs REALLY help my dog).

Now, if I could figure out the YPS requirements for open and elite for small dogs -  (Anyone here capable of doing math?)
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: bhodges865 on November 06, 2015, 12:10:31 PM
True that, Gina.  While I don't ever quit trying to improve as a handler, I think you do have to listen to and respect your dog, and adjust your own goals and expectations accordingly.  My first agility dog Kintla wasn't a great weaver, and Elite Jumpers proved to be just too tough for him, but he was the best Touch & Go dog ever ..... :-)  His medal for 800 lifetime points in Elite T&G is priceless to me ....

So true!  While my little girl can make time in Elite Weavers, she just doesn't like doing a lot of weaves because it makes her sore.  So I only run Open weavers when we need to qualify for Champs.  I know we'll never have a V Natch but I strive for top 10 in the other classes.
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: RobertStewart on November 07, 2015, 08:56:48 AM
Also remember the extended titles that NADAC does. It's a major incentive to keep your dogs at a "lower" level while your dog builds both skill and confidence up! I've gone for te Superior titles with my dog Ellie, it was a great confidence builder for a small terrier who is a rescued street dog in south Texas. I'd totally encourage you to go back and pick up those novice and open superior titles, triple superior and triple-triple! I'm just as proud of those titles as I am of the natch's. That's where you will gain greater efficiency. As your efficiency as a handler increases, your dogs confidence will increase, and their performance efficiency will likewise increase. best of luck to you.
Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: Erin Wajda on November 08, 2015, 11:50:43 AM

Now, if I could figure out the YPS requirements for open and elite for small dogs -  (Anyone here capable of doing math?)

Hi Becky,

The YPS requirements for each class for large dogs are listed in a table in the Exhibitor's Handbook under Standard Course Time.  To figure out what the YPS requirement for small dogs would be, take the large dog YPS and divide by 1.2.  If you are running as a small skilled dog, take the large dog YPS and divide by 1.25.

I hope this helps!

Erin




Title: Re: Elite times
Post by: BeckyAH on November 08, 2015, 12:41:10 PM
Enormously helpful, thank you!  I was thinking myself around in circles and knots with it!