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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on December 01, 2015, 05:30:24 AM

Title: new Bonus program
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on December 01, 2015, 05:30:24 AM
Sharon
Will you be creating new awards that include 20 point bonus?

If I understand it correctly the only incentive to do 20 point bonus is to get more points?? 
Personally, I am not interested in doing bonus' just for more points.  I need a goal of an award :) 

How does this affect qualifying for stakes classes?  What about the experience points?

Thanks
lisa


Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Kyle on December 01, 2015, 06:55:08 AM
The new program sounds great, allowing for more options for more people. I have 2 questions (so far!  ;))

1. Since now there are 2 Bonus Areas, can the handler start in the 30 point area and if there's a problem move into the 20 point area and get a 20 pointer? (I am assuming - which may be totally incorrect! - that the 2 boxes are in the same place, the 20 point box/area would just be "surrounding" the 30 point area.)

2. The video: Lots of times the video doesn't include the handler - if the above is possible, will it be *required* to include the handler or is the judge able to judge the handler's box?

Thanks!
-Kyle
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Cathie Cage on December 01, 2015, 07:15:39 AM
Kyle most bonus videos don't include the handler, it is very hard to get the handler and dog in the same video, because the objective is to watch the dog making sure dog is not out of flow. It is our responsibility as bonus handlers to stay in the designated space. I would love to watch what the Hell I am doing when I send Clayton off course!! LOL And also some rings just don't allow for a good spot to video both handler and dog.

Cathie Cage
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: AndreaL on December 01, 2015, 07:44:53 AM
One more question:  last I heard, one small bobble was allowed in Regular bonus runs.  Is this still the case? 
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on December 01, 2015, 10:37:10 AM
I have a questions as well:

You listed under the 30 pt. area, that if the run was handled from the 30 point area but the DRI was under 100, a 20 pt. bonus would be awarded. 

Then, in the 20 pt. area it says you can earn a 20 pt. bonus if the run is clean.

I don't see the difference between these.  Please clarify for me.

Linda
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: dogrsqr on December 01, 2015, 10:42:33 AM
Love it!  I will have to start looking at the 20 point bonus areas.

Gina and Abbey
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Sharon Nelson on December 01, 2015, 02:19:55 PM
Sharon
Will you be creating new awards that include 20 point bonus?

If I understand it correctly the only incentive to do 20 point bonus is to get more points?? 
Personally, I am not interested in doing bonus' just for more points.  I need a goal of an award :) 

How does this affect qualifying for stakes classes?  What about the experience points?

Thanks
lisa

From an experienced "bonus" person who sees bonuses from both sides, as a competitor and as the keeper of points, I do not see an awards program based on the 20 point bonus area at this time.

For most bonus competitors, just the thrill of seeing a successful bonus performed is what is the glory, not the extra points.  If one is doing bonuses just to earn the extra points, I don't believe they will remain in the bonus program for very long.  It is the rush of the run, rarely is it about extra points.

As the points keeper of all bonus and watcher of the program, competitors can earn bonuses in Jumpers, Chances, Tunnelers, Touch N Go and Weavers as the program exists.  If the team has the training to be successful in those "special skills" classes, then earning bonuses can also be done with more training once those special skills are attained.  But earning bonuses in Regular is always the tough one.  Regular is not about perfecting certain skills, it is about displaying ALL of the skills needed in agility all in one course.  All the obstacles, the discrimination, directional, and distance skills with any obstacle forms the criteria for a bonus in Regular.

By offering a "larger" bonus area to work from, it allows a handler to perfect those skills without the stress of doing it from the regular bonus area.  Then success can continue to build.

The 20 point bonus areas will be used for qualifying for entry in the Stakes division of the Championships for the Starter Stakes and Silver Stakes divisions.

The 20 point bonus areas will not count towards EP points for the Stakes dogs.

Sharon
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on December 01, 2015, 02:27:51 PM
What will be the qualifications for the stakes classes for the champs?
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Becky Woodruff on December 01, 2015, 02:45:36 PM
Love it!  I will have to start looking at the 20 point bonus areas.

Gina and Abbey
You and Abbey will do great.  Just need to get your feet wet!
Becky
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Sharon Nelson on December 01, 2015, 03:48:39 PM
I have a questions as well:

You listed under the 30 pt. area, that if the run was handled from the 30 point area but the DRI was under 100, a 20 pt. bonus would be awarded. 

Then, in the 20 pt. area it says you can earn a 20 pt. bonus if the run is clean.

I don't see the difference between these.  Please clarify for me.

Linda

The 20 point bonus earned from the "30 pt area" gives you a qualifying run that counts towards a Silver Achievement Cup.  The 20 points earned from the 20 point area does not give you a qualifying round that counts towards any Achievement Cups.

Sharon
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on December 01, 2015, 04:49:25 PM
I have a questions as well:

You listed under the 30 pt. area, that if the run was handled from the 30 point area but the DRI was under 100, a 20 pt. bonus would be awarded. 

Then, in the 20 pt. area it says you can earn a 20 pt. bonus if the run is clean.

I don't see the difference between these.  Please clarify for me.

Linda

The 20 point bonus earned from the "30 pt area" gives you a qualifying run that counts towards a Silver Achievement Cup.  The 20 points earned from the 20 point area does not give you a qualifying round that counts towards any Achievement Cups.

Sharon
Do both count toward Silver Stakes qualifying for Champs?
Linda
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Kyle on December 01, 2015, 05:30:26 PM
Guess I'm out of the loop -

What are "Experience Points"?????

Thanks,
Kyle
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Sharon Nelson on December 01, 2015, 05:39:57 PM
Guess I'm out of the loop -

What are "Experience Points"?????

Thanks,
Kyle

I can look up the post and copy it here after I write this!

Basically EP (experience points) is earned each time you earn a qualifying round in Regular from the 30 point area.   It is used for Championships.  For each round of Championships, you can have EP points that is added to your score in each round.  For instance, last year the dogs entered in Starter Stakes had 0-2 EP points (most had zero).  In SilverStakes, the dogs had 1-3 EP.  In SuperStakes, Busi had an EP of 23.

So for each round, you started with your base points for the course, then subtracted time+faults, then added in bonus points and EP for each round (SuperStakes also added in Handler Bonus points).  So a team would like to have as high of an EP as possible to help their final scores for each round.

Sharon
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Kyle on December 02, 2015, 08:13:44 AM
It's an interesting concept (Experience Points) and I'm curious to know why you decided to include them in the Stakes program for Championships? I don't think I've been involved in a National or Championships type program that awarded extra points for work from the previous year to be added onto scores - so I'm really interested to hear your thought process on it.

Thanks,
Kyle
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Sharon Nelson on December 02, 2015, 10:45:28 AM
It's an interesting concept (Experience Points) and I'm curious to know why you decided to include them in the Stakes program for Championships? I don't think I've been involved in a National or Championships type program that awarded extra points for work from the previous year to be added onto scores - so I'm really interested to hear your thought process on it.

Thanks,
Kyle

It is an incentive for people to perfect their "Regular" skills, since that is the class that is run at Championships!  So many people come to champs with lots of bonuses in Tunnelers, or Weavers, or Touch N Go, Jumpers, etc............. and then crash and burn at champs because the one class were they don't earn bonus runs is in Regular!  By offering an incentive to earn bonuses for Regular, people will start focusing more on the Regular class.  Many never even try Regular bonuses because they are "too tough" and they only attempt the bonus classes where they have exceptional special skills and then get very frustrated when they don't have success at champs.

It is just one more way to give incentive and motivation for the class that you will actually be running at the champs!

Sharon
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on December 02, 2015, 11:45:25 AM
Great explanation of the EP and the reasoning behind it !!   I hope that the 20 point bonus will be more like champs that have more lines (at least in Starter Stakes) across the course or BIG boxes ;D.      I loved the lines in starter stakes this year !  It definitely was within my 'comfort zone' while Silver stakes (at least in some courses) looked way beyond my skill level.    I am sure my comfort zone with distance will increase with more practice and the 20 point in regular is a way to do push myself and my dogs.   Good practice for the champs if I qualify/ enter stakes again.   

Makes me more excited to try the 20 point bonus' in regular when I think about it like that :)

Personally, I have tried more regular  bonus' than any other class.  Only have a few bonus Qs....but I do try regular when I think I have the skills tested in that course. 

Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: AndreaL on December 02, 2015, 11:59:41 AM
One more question:  last I heard, one small bobble was allowed in Regular bonus runs.  Is this still the case?

Just bumping this question so it doesn't get lost!

Andrea
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Sharon Nelson on December 02, 2015, 12:01:37 PM
Great explanation of the EP and the reasoning behind it !!   I hope that the 20 point bonus will be more like champs that have more lines (at least in Starter Stakes) across the course or BIG boxes ;D.      I loved the lines in starter stakes this year !  It definitely was within my 'comfort zone' while Silver stakes (at least in some courses) looked way beyond my skill level.    I am sure my comfort zone with distance will increase with more practice and the 20 point in regular is a way to do push myself and my dogs.   Good practice for the champs if I qualify/ enter stakes again.   

Makes me more excited to try the 20 point bonus' in regular when I think about it like that :)

Personally, I have tried more regular  bonus' than any other class.  Only have a few bonus Qs....but I do try regular when I think I have the skills tested in that course.

Thanks, Lisa, good input!  Hopefully with the bigger 20 point areas, you will greatly increase your number of Regular Q's and then stepping into that 30 point area will be so much more comfortable with the foundation built upon working those 20's!

The more this is discussed, I do think that the 20's should count as EP for Starter/Silver at champs!

Sharon
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Sharon Nelson on December 02, 2015, 12:03:49 PM
One more question:  last I heard, one small bobble was allowed in Regular bonus runs.  Is this still the case?

Just bumping this question so it doesn't get lost!

Andrea

The five fault penalty could be a knocked bar, since that fault is also allowed in normal Regular runs.  A bonus run could possibly have a slight halt above a contact or a SLIGHT out of flow fault.

Sharon
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Sharon Nelson on December 02, 2015, 12:29:14 PM
When considering bonus runs, handlers should always keep in mind that while doing bonuses and submitting videos, the dog must CLEARLY hit the contact area.  While a judge has to give the benefit of the doubt to the dog in regards to a "Q", the bonus criteria must be clear.  If the video does not clearly show a dog hitting a contact (without any doubt) then extra bonus points are not awarded.

The handlers of bonus dogs generally know how to train a contact or path flow or any other pieces of bonus criteria so it doesn't raise much of an issue.

With many more handlers that will be attempting Regular bonus with the increased bonus area, they need to be clear that a dog could earn a Q and a clean round and still not earn a bonus because of a "close" or unclear contact performance.

Remember the adage that bonus handlers have no weaknesses!!  Step into that bonus area and be proud of your training!!

Sharon
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on December 02, 2015, 01:01:40 PM
"The more this is discussed, I do think that the 20's should count as EP for Starter/Silver at champs!"

YES PLEASE !!!!!!  more incentive to try them  ;) ;) ;)

What are the qualifications for stakes classes? How many 20 point regular Qs do we need??

Thanks !!
lisa
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Jeannie Biggers on December 02, 2015, 01:05:10 PM
Couple things.....

1.  We usually have 3 Pines at our trials to video.... he doesnt move so if the contact is away from him are we not allowed to use those videos?
2.  I still dont get a warm and fuzzy feeling with the EP's.  I do not see how this can be fair across the board.  Someone who can attend 20+ trials a year is bound to have way more opportunity than someone that only trials 10 or so times a year.  Just because someone has the money or the trial opportunity to go to many should not put them above someone that can only go to a few throughout the year at a Championship event.... jmho
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Sharon Nelson on December 02, 2015, 01:11:57 PM
Couple things.....

1.  We usually have 3 Pines at our trials to video.... he doesnt move so if the contact is away from him are we not allowed to use those videos?
2.  I still dont get a warm and fuzzy feeling with the EP's.  I do not see how this can be fair across the board.  Someone who can attend 20+ trials a year is bound to have way more opportunity than someone that only trials 10 or so times a year.  Just because someone has the money or the trial opportunity to go to many should not put them above someone that can only go to a few throughout the year at a Championship event.... jmho

1.  We haven't had any issues with 3 pines videos.  Maybe they just haven't had that dog attempting a bonus with the contacts going away.

2.  In human logic, that could be true.  It sure hasn't worked that way in reality.  I see dogs that go to 20-30 trials a year and earn 1-2 EP and a different dog that goes to 10-12 trials a year and have 8 EP.  It is based on the skill of the team, not on the number of trials.  True, a team may have many more opportunities, but it is also true that they have the opportunity to fail way more times than others!  The number of trials and the number of EP have had no bearing whatsoever so far.  The skill of the teams has been the factor that determines the number of EP earned.

Sharon
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Bernie Doyle on December 02, 2015, 01:28:43 PM
The blue pups & I are looking forward to this! Perhaps I can work "outside of my comfort box" with Driven & Rumor!! Guess I better start working on some extra "contact proofing" from all sort of areas!

Bernie, Kruzer, Driven & Rumor
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Sharon Nelson on December 02, 2015, 01:52:51 PM
Couple things.....

1.  We usually have 3 Pines at our trials to video.... he doesnt move so if the contact is away from him are we not allowed to use those videos?
2.  I still dont get a warm and fuzzy feeling with the EP's.  I do not see how this can be fair across the board.  Someone who can attend 20+ trials a year is bound to have way more opportunity than someone that only trials 10 or so times a year.  Just because someone has the money or the trial opportunity to go to many should not put them above someone that can only go to a few throughout the year at a Championship event.... jmho

On a different note, there are no prizes for EP and for Stakes, nothing puts one team "above' the other teams, since their score has nothing to do with another teams score.......  it is a personal plus only....... maybe an ego boost if that is what boosts an ego........ but it has nothing to do with a different team.

Sharon
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Jeannie Biggers on December 02, 2015, 05:00:25 PM
Couple things.....

1.  We usually have 3 Pines at our trials to video.... he doesnt move so if the contact is away from him are we not allowed to use those videos?
2.  I still dont get a warm and fuzzy feeling with the EP's.  I do not see how this can be fair across the board.  Someone who can attend 20+ trials a year is bound to have way more opportunity than someone that only trials 10 or so times a year.  Just because someone has the money or the trial opportunity to go to many should not put them above someone that can only go to a few throughout the year at a Championship event.... jmho

On a different note, there are no prizes for EP and for Stakes, nothing puts one team "above' the other teams, since their score has nothing to do with another teams score.......  it is a personal plus only....... maybe an ego boost if that is what boosts an ego........ but it has nothing to do with a different team.

Sharon

Well I guess this is true if there is no "winner" in stakes anymore but the earning of a cup.  So if that is the case and there are no prizes for them why the EP?  They are only used at Champs so why do they even need to be something?  It is the handler and dog team against "that" course over the period of 8 courses.....
Title: Re: new Bonus program
Post by: Sharon Nelson on December 02, 2015, 05:09:21 PM
Couple things.....

1.  We usually have 3 Pines at our trials to video.... he doesnt move so if the contact is away from him are we not allowed to use those videos?
2.  I still dont get a warm and fuzzy feeling with the EP's.  I do not see how this can be fair across the board.  Someone who can attend 20+ trials a year is bound to have way more opportunity than someone that only trials 10 or so times a year.  Just because someone has the money or the trial opportunity to go to many should not put them above someone that can only go to a few throughout the year at a Championship event.... jmho

On a different note, there are no prizes for EP and for Stakes, nothing puts one team "above' the other teams, since their score has nothing to do with another teams score.......  it is a personal plus only....... maybe an ego boost if that is what boosts an ego........ but it has nothing to do with a different team.

Sharon

Well I guess this is true if there is no "winner" in stakes anymore but the earning of a cup.  So if that is the case and there are no prizes for them why the EP?  They are only used at Champs so why do they even need to be something?  It is the handler and dog team against "that" course over the period of 8 courses.....

It is possible to help their score towards the final points needed for a cup.  If a person had 3 EP, then over 8 rounds, they have added 24 points to their score....... that can make a difference in their final score.

Last year it didn't make much of an impact, since Busi (23) and Gia (8) were the only dogs to earn over 3 EP.  But maybe more people will up their points with the incentive of earning more EP. 

Everyone I have talked to has been very excited and are amped to start improving their scores in Regular Agility and earning more Regular bonuses!

Sharon