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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Helen Z on June 27, 2016, 09:15:58 PM

Title: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Helen Z on June 27, 2016, 09:15:58 PM
Melinda Sito touched on this subject this morning after our conversation, but here goes my take.  We had two successful runs in Regular for one of my dogs on Saturday, or so I thought until I went to see the results and get her Q medal (side note...I prefer the Q ribbon...for one thing the label doesn't even fit on the medal).  One of her runs was marked NQ.  Fortunately we had a wonderful videographer at the trial, so I went to watch the video.  I saw the judge make the 20 pt. hand signal after her barrel, but I couldn't figure out why.  He wavered back and forth like he couldn't make up his mind, and then he made the hand signal.  I asked a couple nearby people and they couldn't figure it out either, except the videographer said he had called someone else on her barrel.  We watched that video, and her dog thought he was supposed to go to a different obstacle.  He started to go toward a tunnel a couple of times, and then she got him back, he came around the barrel, and he was called.  Of course that would be a whole other discussion as to whether we now are going to be called for refusals??  But in mine, my dog went around the barrel but looked to be pretty close to five feet from the barrel when she came back to the front to go on to the next obstacle.  I called my trainer over and he couldn't see why she would have been called.  So then I called Chris Nelson over to watch, and he said it was a close call but the reason she was called was because they have to be no more than five feet out from the barrel.  Well, I've never heard that.  The day before for barrelers, they had explained that for that barrelers course they had removed the hoops from the barrels and were putting little saucer cones at 5 feet for elite, 6 for open and 7 for novice.  No one said anything about the same criteria for regular, nor were cones put by the barrel for the regular course.  Chris said to talk to the judge and he would perhaps reverse the call.  I waited a few hours until the judge looked like he had a minute.  When I said I needed to talk to him, he immediately said "Is this about the barrel?"  So apparently Chris had already filled him in, and he already was obviously defensive.  He came and watched the video and said she was more than five feet.  I told him I didn't know anything about the five feet, nor did anyone I had asked know about it, including my trainer, who wins at Champs year after year!  He said "Well, it's been a topic of conversation on the forum since February."  I told him I don't read the forum and asked if that's now a rule, that I have to read the forum to find out new rules.  He said it wasn't of course.  I showed him another video the videographer had brought to my attention (she called it ammunition  :))   ) where a dog run by another handler who wins at Champs all the time had been farther out than mine and had not been called for it.  He said that "when you're in the moment you miss things."  Really?  I said that's not fair, and he wanted to know "What's not fair?"  I told him that arbitrary calls where one dog gets called for being more than five feet on a judgment call made from 30 or more feet away where you're going to call one dog and not another is not fair.  When I asked him why he didn't explain the five-foot rule in the briefing, he asked if he's supposed to go over all the rules in the briefing!   He concluded with asking me if it was really that important to have the Q, and I told him it was.  So he hollered over to Chris to "Change it!", making me feel like his intention was to make me feel small for wanting the Q.  I later had a conversation with the person whose video was the "ammunition."  She said the main thing is to have fun with your dog.  She said "Did you have fun with your dog?  Then the Q is not important."  I told her that of course I had fun with my dog, I always do, but the reason we trial is also to get Qs.  At that point she said, "But don't take away "Fluffy's" Q because he/she doesn't get many."  So wait, the Q WAS important to her too.  And honestly, if my only goal is to have fun with my dog, I can go play with her and have just as much fun without paying $10 a run! 

Now, I've found only one post from February regarding barrels, so maybe I'm not looking in the right place, and it didn't say anything about five feet in a regular run or even a barrelers run, because the last post by Sharon in that thread is that they will NOT be taking away the hoops from barrelers.  And yet they took away the hoops in our barrelers run.  Same weekend, up in Washington at Melinda Sito's trial, hoops were still on the barrels for barrelers, and tape was put out at five feet from the barrel in the regular courses.  AND it was fully explained by the judges that there would be a five-foot criteria for the regular runs.  Way more fair than in our situation, and yet....why is it one way at our trial and another way at her trial on the very same weekend?  I want to know the rules before I spend money to run a course, and the rules should be the rules at every trial everywhere.  In the other big agility venue, the rules are the rules, and they don't change from month to month and trial to trial. 

And finally, when I went to find the videos I wanted to purchase on Sunday, I watched my other dog's runs on that same regular course.  He was at least as far if not farther out from the barrel coming around the second side as my dog that got called, and yet he did not get called.  If I had the time and energy, I'll bet I could sit and watch all the videos from that course and find all sorts of dogs that came at least that wide and wider and did not get called for it.  If you're going to have an absolute five-foot line that dogs can't cross when coming around a barrel, how can you just eyeball it and deny someone's Q over it??  For that matter, why the heck have a line on the dog walk and the A-frame?  Why not just leave it up to each judge to eyeball it and call arbitrary faults on the dog walk and A-frame as well?  What's the difference? 

Sorry, I'm not in Seattle, but I am as clueless as Melinda.  I'm left with a Q that's been "muddied," and I don't think that's fair.  My dog is a double-digit dog.  She got her NATCH on Friday, and then this on Saturday.  Very disappointing.  I'm getting ready to send a big check for two dogs to go to Champs and I'm wondering why! 
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 27, 2016, 10:31:48 PM
Helen,
I am a little confused as to why this is being posted and what the intention truly is?
As we told you, during the briefing during barrelers we did say it was for all Barrel performances.  I am sorry if that was not made clear.  As we also told I was apologetic that we did not have the cones out for that course, but when that happens it does still fall to a judges discretion.  Same as a contact or unsafe weave performance or anything else.  The cones are meant to make things very clear for the exhibitors and eliminate what happened this weekend with your run.

I would like to know exactly what it is you would like from this conversation and once I know that I will respond appropriately so that I can answer everything.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 27, 2016, 10:52:24 PM
Actually Helen I will go ahead and cover a few things now while I have the time.

Quote
He started to go toward a tunnel a couple of times, and then she got him back, he came around the barrel, and he was called.  Of course that would be a whole other discussion as to whether we now are going to be called for refusals??
As we explained this weekend the barrel has to be taken with a certain path.   If the dog goes outside that path then they have not completed it in the correct manner.  No different than a dog that gets over a dog walk but then jumps the contact, or a dog who jumps but knocks the bar.  Each obstacle has a performance criteria.  The criteria for the barrel is to stay within the designated path.

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looked to be pretty close to five feet from the barrel

If you would truly like a definitive answer here go ahead and post the video.   I can go ahead and show the measured width of a barrel.  Take a screenshot and then measure exactly how far away your dog was during the performance of that barrel.

Quote
The day before for barrelers, they had explained that for that barrelers course they had removed the hoops from the barrels and were putting little saucer cones at 5 feet for elite, 6 for open and 7 for novice

Excluding the fact that we did brief this was for all barrel performances, are there any obstacles currently where the performance criteria changes upon the class being ran?   If your running Regular you must hit your contact.  That doesn't change in Chances or Touch n Go.  So I did somewhat hope that people would correlate the change to all classes.

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I told him that arbitrary calls where one dog gets called for being more than five feet on a judgment call made from 30 or more feet away where you're going to call one dog and not another is not fair.

And again what do you expect on a contact? a unsafe weave performance? A unsafe tunnel performance?  Nothing in judging can be made rock solid.  We try to get everything as solid as we can and do the best we can to make it easier to identify when things go wrong.  But sometimes a judge just has to make the call.

Quote
So he hollered over to Chris to "Change it!", making me feel like his intention was to make me feel small for wanting the Q

His intention was to talk to you about the issue.  In doing so stopping the trial.  During the period he was reviewing the run we had stopped walking and had a dog ready to run, hence rather than walking over to me and delaying the trial even more he simply yelled it over to me.

Quote
In the other big agility venue, the rules are the rules, and they don't change from month to month and trial to trial.
The other venues also do not have much in the way of new progress being made.   Barrels are new, they are constantly evolving and that does require some adjustments along the way.  Until we figure out the perfect scenario for everything rules will be adjusted to continually give everyone the best experience we can achieve for the entire NADAC group.



I do apologize if I seem a little more fired up than normal but this does bother me a good bit.   Had I known this was such an issue I would have had a much more in depth discussion at the trial, rather than needing to write all of this down on the Monday following. 
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Helen Z on June 27, 2016, 11:17:59 PM
Chris,

Even though I didn't run any dogs in barrelers, I did listen to the briefing.  I didn't hear anything about it being for all barrel performance, nor do I remember either you or the judge mentioning that during our Q discussions.  You did tell me that there's ALWAYS been criteria for barrel performance.  I've stumbled upon a thread started by Karen Birdsong this morning, and in reading that thread, I learned that originally there was no criteria for barrel performance (according to some of the posters) other than the loss of time for wider turns.  When that became a rule, I never heard about it nor did a lot of people who were at last weekend's trial.
I also don't remember an apology from either you or the judge that there were no cones on the regular course, simply that it was up to the judge to decide if the dog went too wide.  I've only watched videos of 3 dogs, Roxie, Mojo and ZZ.  Of the three dogs I watched, Roxie's was actually the tightest, and yet she's the only one of the three that was called.  You say "The cones are meant to make things very clear for the exhibitors and eliminate what happened this weekend with your run."  And yet I was made to feel belittled for wanting our Q instead of either one of you saying hey, it was really close, it probably shouldn't have been called a 20 point fault, we should have had cones, etc, etc.  Any of those things would have been better than the judge's demeaning question to me "Is the Q really that important to you?"
Another intention for this post, if it's not clear, is the lack of consistency and knowing what the rules are.  Another thing I posted about was the judge not mentioning the five-foot rule in his briefing for regular.  When I said that to him, he said should I give all the rules in the briefing?  Well, if they're changing from week to week or month to month, yeah, you probably should...at least the ones that keep changing.  In AKC trials, the judges give lots of rules at every briefing that you've most likely heard over and over, but you know what they are and how you're expected to perform and most importantly, they're the same at every trial in every state.  How many less people run barrelers than regular courses?  So if you actually did say, which I didn't hear, that this new rule will be in effect in all barrel performance during the barrelers briefing, how many people who aren't running or interested in barrelers are missing it?  So why wouldn't you tell about it in the regular briefing, especially if it's going to be judged so arbitrarily without any cones?  Like I said, why have a line on the dog walk and the A-frame for a point of reference for the judge but no line on the ground for the barrel?
I guess the biggest point of my post, which the general discussion says you can discuss anything you want to, is after my happiness on Friday with Roxie's NATCH, the handling of her Q on Saturday's regular run kind of soured the whole thing.  I think it was really unfair, and I assumed I had the right to share my thoughts.  Wrong?
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 27, 2016, 11:45:56 PM
Quote
I also don't remember an apology from either you or the judge that there were no cones on the regular course
Correct I actually apologized to the entire trial on Sunday morning briefing.

I will be making a video tomorrow to clearly define the current rules for a barrel.  It will be the same as my briefing on Friday and my briefing on Sunday, but then it will be readily available for anyone to read.

As I said before I would have liked to talk about this in person at the trial rather then here.
I'm sorry you feel 'soured' about your run on Saturday, but what course of action could we have taken?  Had we kept the original call we would still be having this conversation.   You feel like it is unfair, but we gave you the Q?   Wouldn't it have been unfair had we said no it's close but we're still keeping the call as is?

Regardless I would have preferred to talk about this at the trial, as I also mentioned during the briefings all three days.

I'll get that video made tomorrow and that should clear up any questions that could come up in the future :)

I am personally sorry you feel we wronged you in some way.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Rsquared on June 28, 2016, 06:56:37 AM
Wow, it's a little hard to read this because there were so many positive things about this trial and all the attention is being focused on one Q/ NQ.  So here's some equal time for the positive:
I love the arena!  Though it was hot outside, it was much cooler inside the arena with good strong breezes.  Friday night after the last class you could walk down the road and hear a free bluegrass concert in the park with your dog!  It was a Funraiser but all the competitors were provided with delicious catered lunches each day!  I'm assuming this came out of the pocket of Denise Gosik/My Agility Dog, who was originally slated to run the trial.  And let's not forget the stuffed toy each dog received!  I wonder how many people took the time to thank Denise for all of this generosity?  The trial secretary and judge were very efficient and friendly!  My fellow competitors were good at stepping up to volunteer so the trial moved right along!  I was grateful my dog was having a good time running after being sidelined with a health issue!  So many positive things to be grateful for at this particular trial that also should be mentioned...
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on June 28, 2016, 01:46:49 PM
Wow, it's a little hard to read this because there were so many positive things about this trial and all the attention is being focused on one Q/ NQ.  So here's some equal time for the positive:
I love the arena!  Though it was hot outside, it was much cooler inside the arena with good strong breezes.  Friday night after the last class you could walk down the road and hear a free bluegrass concert in the park with your dog!  It was a Funraiser but all the competitors were provided with delicious catered lunches each day!  I'm assuming this came out of the pocket of Denise Gosik/My Agility Dog, who was originally slated to run the trial.  And let's not forget the stuffed toy each dog received!  I wonder how many people took the time to thank Denise for all of this generosity?  The trial secretary and judge were very efficient and friendly!  My fellow competitors were good at stepping up to volunteer so the trial moved right along!  I was grateful my dog was having a good time running after being sidelined with a health issue!  So many positive things to be grateful for at this particular trial that also should be mentioned...

Thanks, Ronni!!  And you are correct about so much coming from Denise!!  Beautiful trial, awesome people and dogs and a great environment!

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 28, 2016, 03:51:16 PM
This will be the standard from now on.
https://youtu.be/9rTp7od3fmU
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon, AZ on June 28, 2016, 04:16:50 PM
Chris, LOVE the video!  Thanks for the great, clear explanation.   Sharon, AZ
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on June 28, 2016, 04:19:45 PM
Love the video!!  I am a definite visual learner.  One question to clarify a point - as long as your dog hasn't gone more than 4" past the plane of the barrel or completed an additional obstacle, you are allowed to "fix" the barrel performance by completing the barrel in the correct/chosen direction and your only penalty would be lost time, correct?
Linda
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 28, 2016, 04:24:19 PM
Love the video!!  I am a definite visual learner.  One question to clarify a point - as long as your dog hasn't gone more than 4" past the plane of the barrel or completed an additional obstacle, you are allowed to "fix" the barrel performance by completing the barrel in the correct/chosen direction and your only penalty would be lost time, correct?
Linda

Yes, kind of.
When I said feet I meant doggie feet, not numerical feet :)

But you're correct on everything else.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on June 28, 2016, 04:28:38 PM
Love the video!!  I am a definite visual learner.  One question to clarify a point - as long as your dog hasn't gone more than 4" past the plane of the barrel or completed an additional obstacle, you are allowed to "fix" the barrel performance by completing the barrel in the correct/chosen direction and your only penalty would be lost time, correct?
Linda

Yes, think if it as breaking out of the weave poles.......... once you left the required path of the obstacle, you can restart.

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Mark Gwillim on June 28, 2016, 06:00:13 PM
Great job Chris,

Mark ;D
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: LeeAnne McAdam on June 28, 2016, 06:17:05 PM
Great video, Chris!  Thanks for doing that.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: KathieT on June 28, 2016, 06:55:40 PM
Thank you Chris.  Helen Z, sometimes we are given a Q when our dog has made a mistake.  I have a video of my young dog missing a contact and she got a Q.  Judges are human and calls will sometimes go our way when they shouldn't.   If I think that I should have had a Q, I will talk to the judge.  I don't expect them to change it (hoping maybe -ha ha) but I use it as a learning experience so that I make sure there are no questions on my runs.

Kathie T
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: MoabDiane on June 28, 2016, 08:32:46 PM
And Chris, you *will* make this a "sticky" at the top of the page, right?!
Thanks again!
diane
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: cheyaut on June 29, 2016, 01:17:38 AM
Very nice, clear video. And that program is really cool :)
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Vicki Storrs on June 29, 2016, 06:25:23 AM
Question...you pointed out all of the faults in barrel performance. Are these 5, 10, or 20 points? The difference between 5 or more points obviously mean something on a weekly basis with the option of 5 point Qs in Regular, while larger matters at Champs. Just curious...
Thanks for the video!  It helped a lot.
Vicki
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: RobertStewart on June 29, 2016, 06:38:38 AM
This is a really good video Chris! I've posted in on our clubs Facebook page! So everyone can see it.

As NADAC comopetitors, it is in our best interest to keep up with what's going on with the nadac forum.

Thanks for the Video, it's really helpful!


Robert Stewart
Travis Agility Group
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Janice_Shavor on June 29, 2016, 06:53:27 AM
Very clear explanation!  I'll use the phrase "4 paws past the plane of the barrel" for the commitment point.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: danforth on June 29, 2016, 08:20:03 AM
I have a couple of questions abo ut barrel rules still.

Do you have 3 tries to redo the barrel like in weaves?

Is going outside the markers (or where they would be) a 5 point fault in Regular?   or 10 points?

Thanks for the great video?
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: tag team on June 29, 2016, 09:43:17 AM
Great video!  Very good to know we can send our dogs around the barrel again without a fault if the first attempt is not tight enough.  Its what I want to do anyway when my dog has a wide turn.  VERY VERY COOL.   I think the thing my dog Lil will need to get used to is ignoring little "marker" objects.  I'm not kidding when I say she may see them as obstacles to be performed!  But this is a dog who will weave through weave pole bases without the poles so I doubt anyone else will have to set up little objects around a barrel at home for their dogs.  :)  Dev   
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: MoabDiane on June 29, 2016, 11:00:14 AM
Ha, Dev!  I thought the same thing about the golf 'whiskers.'  Cones shouldn't be a distraction, but little wiggly (in the wind) sticky-uppy things?  Looks like a toy to me! (well, to my dogs....)

diane
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: DeafSheltieMom on June 29, 2016, 01:41:14 PM
Excellent video, Chris.  It helped clarify the rules considerably.  Thank you.

Just to be fair to Helen, though...  I missed the barrelers runs on Friday, and the first time I heard about the new rule was at the briefing on Sunday.  I didn't know the rules were adjusted until then.  It didn't matter to me as I train for tight turns and expect that from her, but it did bother me that I wasn't aware of the change until then.  And I read the forum more than most competitors.

I'm also concerned about the different sizes of barrels that are used at trials.  The 17Flat barrels and Fiskars compost barrels are considerably wider than some of the barrels I've seen at trials, by 4-5" in diameter.  It may not seem like much, but for a fast big dog, a tight turn around something 5" in diameter smaller than another barrel is a big difference.  I probably should invest in the smallest size of barrel allowed and train that...  Could you give us the dimensions of barrels allowed at trial?

Thanks again for the video Chris.  It makes much more sense now.
-dayle
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on June 29, 2016, 01:48:36 PM
Excellent video, Chris.  It helped clarify the rules considerably.  Thank you.

Just to be fair to Helen, though...  I missed the barrelers runs on Friday, and the first time I heard about the new rule was at the briefing on Sunday.  I didn't know the rules were adjusted until then.  It didn't matter to me as I train for tight turns and expect that from her, but it did bother me that I wasn't aware of the change until then.  And I read the forum more than most competitors.

I'm also concerned about the different sizes of barrels that are used at trials.  The 17Flat barrels and Fiskars compost barrels are considerably wider than some of the barrels I've seen at trials, by 4-5" in diameter.  It may not seem like much, but for a fast big dog, a tight turn around something 5" in diameter smaller than another barrel is a big difference.  I probably should invest in the smallest size of barrel allowed and train that...  Could you give us the dimensions of barrels allowed at trial?

Thanks again for the video Chris.  It makes much more sense now.
-dayle

Most things are tested at funraisers and always have been.  Most people love being at the ground floor and have the ability to give positive constructive input about potential improvements to the sport.

Barrels can be 22-27" wide.

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Rosemary on June 29, 2016, 03:08:04 PM
Excellent video Chris.  Thank you for taking the time to clarify the criteria for everyone.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Helen Z on June 29, 2016, 06:13:02 PM
Sorry, Chris, not to get this posted sooner.  I did not purchase these videos and had to get them via email from the videographer.  As I said, I only watched 3 videos, Roxie's, Mojo's, and ZZ's.  I showed ZZ's to the judge, as ZZ was clearly as far out or farther than Roxie.  He made the comment about being in the moment and missing something.  Now look at Mojo's run and how far out he is.  I'm not saying they weren't five feet out.  So no need to measure.  I think it's pretty clear that Mojo went wider than Roxie, but he didn't get called for it.  What I'm saying is there was no criteria articulated to us to know we had to be within five feet, and therefore it's unfair to eyeball it and fault someone 20 pts. for being possibly beyond the five feet when they don't even know that's a fault.  No one I talked to at that trial knew about it.  I didn't run barrelers, but other people did, and even they didn't know it applied to Regular....and there were no cones put out!  So making consistent calls, obviously, was nearly impossible.

Your new video is wonderful, very easy to understand, and I will claim to be the driving force for FINALLY an explanation of what's expected.   ;)  Quite obviously from other posts, most people had no idea.  I actually had a couple people "friend" me on FB, telling me they agreed wholeheartedly with my post.  They do way more NADAC than I do, but they didn't know their dog had to be within five feet of the barrel.  I don't have any complaints about your five-foot rule...I just think you need to make me aware of it before you charge me to run a course and fault me for a rule I had no idea existed.

Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Tikvah01es on June 29, 2016, 06:37:50 PM
Great video Chris!  Thanks for the explanations!

Rachelle
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Helen Z on June 29, 2016, 08:32:34 PM
Several people have asked what the fault is for going outside of the 5 feet, and so far I haven't seen a response.  I can tell you that my dog was given a 20 point deduction.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on June 29, 2016, 09:53:54 PM
Several people have asked what the fault is for going outside of the 5 feet, and so far I haven't seen a response.  I can tell you that my dog was given a 20 point deduction.

It would be 20 faults.

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on June 30, 2016, 05:42:11 AM
Several people have asked what the fault is for going outside of the 5 feet, and so far I haven't seen a response.  I can tell you that my dog was given a 20 point deduction.

It would be 20 faults.

Sharon

But, if you are able to "fix" the performance by re-doing the barrel, there will be no fault, right?
Linda
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Amanda Nelson on June 30, 2016, 06:11:04 AM
Several people have asked what the fault is for going outside of the 5 feet, and so far I haven't seen a response.  I can tell you that my dog was given a 20 point deduction.

It would be 20 faults.

Sharon

But, if you are able to "fix" the performance by re-doing the barrel, there will be no fault, right?
Linda
Correct. :-)
Amanda

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: TheQuestKnight on June 30, 2016, 11:34:15 AM
Hi!

I KNOW BETTER than to "challenge" Sharon; but I do have to ask a question.  If my aging, failing memory serves me well, I believe that I remember that a long, long time ago in a place far, far away, the barrel was first introduced as a "replacement" for the 180 degree tunnel.

I TOTALLY REALIZE that many-to-most of the medium-large to large dogs are "compressed" in one or more ways in a 24" diameter tunnel, where there is more freedom of movement around a barrel.  I also acknowledge that NO ONE really wants a dog to "take a tour of the outfield while rounding second base".....................that's why there are subjectively defined "base paths".............................

Now, it has been quite a while since we've competed in a "for real NADAC trial"; but when we and our dogs were still actively competing, most tunnels were straight or VERY gently curved, wherever they were located.

I can TOTALLY understand and concur with a reasonably tight path around a barrel for Barrelers because it IS a "special skills" class; but when a barrel is used on another class' course where 180 degree tunnels are, to the best of my knowledge, rarely, if ever, used.........................if the same "base path" justified in that case.

OK, OK..........................different performance standards for the identical obstacle in different classes is a Pandora's Box filled with at least a case of cans of worms that NOBODY in their right mind would really choose to open....................................

I TOTALLY agree with Sharon that "suppleness" is VERY important to our dogs' overall health................whether they are agility dogs or simply pets; but spondylosis is something that is generally beyond an owner's control............................it's something that just happens and has to be dealt with as best as we know how.

It seems that barrels are making their presence known in an increasing number of classes and courses; but I do NOT know that with certainty.  One of the MOSTEST AWESOMEST things about NADAC has been the availability of at least ONE class where the older, basically sound; but "comfortably ouchy" older agility kids could still play................................

Unlike hoops, which do NOT put ANY physical stress on a dog, barrels have the potential to do just that for some dogs.

Soooooooooooooooo...........................are barrels being over-used because they offer an easy solution to some course design conundrums and enigmas???

.......................and YES, the sport MUST evolve and change............................and that also implies the obstacle performance standards will change over time...............................

Just rambling thoughts from an old hippie that is becoming less relevant over time........................

Al Ceranko, Pelli, Katie & Lily 

Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on June 30, 2016, 01:40:28 PM
Hi!

I KNOW BETTER than to "challenge" Sharon; but I do have to ask a question.  If my aging, failing memory serves me well, I believe that I remember that a long, long time ago in a place far, far away, the barrel was first introduced as a "replacement" for the 180 degree tunnel.

I TOTALLY REALIZE that many-to-most of the medium-large to large dogs are "compressed" in one or more ways in a 24" diameter tunnel, where there is more freedom of movement around a barrel.  I also acknowledge that NO ONE really wants a dog to "take a tour of the outfield while rounding second base".....................that's why there are subjectively defined "base paths".............................

Now, it has been quite a while since we've competed in a "for real NADAC trial"; but when we and our dogs were still actively competing, most tunnels were straight or VERY gently curved, wherever they were located.

I can TOTALLY understand and concur with a reasonably tight path around a barrel for Barrelers because it IS a "special skills" class; but when a barrel is used on another class' course where 180 degree tunnels are, to the best of my knowledge, rarely, if ever, used.........................if the same "base path" justified in that case.

OK, OK..........................different performance standards for the identical obstacle in different classes is a Pandora's Box filled with at least a case of cans of worms that NOBODY in their right mind would really choose to open....................................

I TOTALLY agree with Sharon that "suppleness" is VERY important to our dogs' overall health................whether they are agility dogs or simply pets; but spondylosis is something that is generally beyond an owner's control............................it's something that just happens and has to be dealt with as best as we know how.

It seems that barrels are making their presence known in an increasing number of classes and courses; but I do NOT know that with certainty.  One of the MOSTEST AWESOMEST things about NADAC has been the availability of at least ONE class where the older, basically sound; but "comfortably ouchy" older agility kids could still play................................

Unlike hoops, which do NOT put ANY physical stress on a dog, barrels have the potential to do just that for some dogs.

Soooooooooooooooo...........................are barrels being over-used because they offer an easy solution to some course design conundrums and enigmas???

.......................and YES, the sport MUST evolve and change............................and that also implies the obstacle performance standards will change over time...............................

Just rambling thoughts from an old hippie that is becoming less relevant over time........................

Al Ceranko, Pelli, Katie & Lily

Barrels aren't hardly used at all.  Much is about "perceived" uses.

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Pat Roth on June 30, 2016, 01:43:14 PM
I agree with Quest Knight I thought barrels were only going to replace tight tunnels. Now I find them on every course but tunnelers. For an older physically challenged handler trying to do them at great distances & getting the dogs to do tight turns can be difficult. My older dog (11 1/2) no longer likes tight turns since she had TPLO so from distance I will probably not get her to complete them.
I also feel that changes need to be brought to the attention of competitors at briefings.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: TheQuestKnight on June 30, 2016, 05:33:47 PM
Barrels aren't hardly used at all.  Much is about "perceived" uses.

Sharon

THANKS, Sharon!

I kind of thought as much..................

As I said, we haven't trialed for a long time.....................NO NADAC trials within 5 hours of us......................and 2 of our 3 dogs have physical issues......................and the other one has NO interest in agility...........................varmint hunter???  Totally different story! <G>

I have viewed many, many VT courses.....................and barrels didn't seem to be over-used; but I got a much different impression from posts on the forum.............................

We use barrels at home for FUN agility play........................and I guess that we're NOT THAT picky...............as long as our dogs have FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As Arlo Guthrie says, it is what it is, as it were...........................but his most profound insight is to want what you already have, that way, you'll never be disappointed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Al, Barb, Pelli, Katie & Lily
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Helen Z on July 01, 2016, 04:12:05 PM
Barrels aren't hardly used at all.  Much is about "perceived" uses.

Sharon

THANKS, Sharon!

I kind of thought as much..................

As I said, we haven't trialed for a long time.....................NO NADAC trials within 5 hours of us......................and 2 of our 3 dogs have physical issues......................and the other one has NO interest in agility...........................varmint hunter???  Totally different story! <G>

I have viewed many, many VT courses.....................and barrels didn't seem to be over-used; but I got a much different impression from posts on the forum.............................

We use barrels at home for FUN agility play........................and I guess that we're NOT THAT picky...............as long as our dogs have FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As Arlo Guthrie says, it is what it is, as it were...........................but his most profound insight is to want what you already have, that way, you'll never be disappointed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Al, Barb, Pelli, Katie & Lily

At least at the trials I've been to in the last few months, Las Vegas, Norco, and Juniper Hills, there's been a barrel in nearly every regular course we've run.  Last weekend was the first time I was ever faulted for my dog not hugging the barrel tightly enough.  Cones, etc., and certainly just the knowledge of a five-foot rule will be very helpful.  I will just have to be more hands-on for barrels.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: MSito on July 01, 2016, 08:17:28 PM
I'm seeing a lot of barrels in my experience, not every course, but enough. I'm not going to go for the fastest time. I'm out there to have fun with my dogs and keep them in the best shape possible. We hike, swim, doggie massage. For barrel practice at home, I'm using my potatoe barrels.  The stay within five feet because of my carrot planter.  My training is very homey.   Melinda Sito
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on July 01, 2016, 09:15:56 PM
I'm seeing a lot of barrels in my experience, not every course, but enough. I'm not going to go for the fastest time. I'm out there to have fun with my dogs and keep them in the best shape possible. We hike, swim, doggie massage. For barrel practice at home, I'm using my potatoe barrels.  The stay within five feet because of my carrot planter.  My training is very homey.   Melinda Sito

Homey is good!!

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Helen Z on July 02, 2016, 12:22:59 AM
I'm seeing a lot of barrels in my experience, not every course, but enough. I'm not going to go for the fastest time. I'm out there to have fun with my dogs and keep them in the best shape possible. We hike, swim, doggie massage. For barrel practice at home, I'm using my potatoe barrels.  The stay within five feet because of my carrot planter.  My training is very homey.   Melinda Sito

Awesome, Melinda!
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: gm5bkc on July 09, 2016, 06:07:52 PM
Question about barrel criteria.  This weekend at a trial we've seen a barrel on Regular with no markers of any kind, and on Barrelers runs they all have hoops on them.  How does this relate to the 5/6/7 foot requirements, since a hoop is 34 inches wide?  What should we be training at home?
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Lindsey Cooper on July 10, 2016, 08:07:44 PM
The run at the trial you are referencing was simply we didn't get the markers moved over from the previous course. We noticed it after we started running dogs.

This was the first weekend those of us in CO have seen the barrel markers and all the dogs did just fine with them! We were outdoors on grass with the golf marker things and I didn't see a single dog stop to look at them. The only time I saw wide turns was when the barrel was in the middle of the course and it was a wrap around it. With other equipment on almost every side, some dogs tended to go wide looking at a tunnel, weaves, etc. I had one of those dogs and I brought him back, tightened him up and fixed it.

I'm ok with barrels around th edges of courses, but they aren't my favorite when they are in the middle with lots of other options around. Just my $0.02

Lindsey
Mountain Dog Sports
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on July 10, 2016, 09:42:32 PM
The run at the trial you are referencing was simply we didn't get the markers moved over from the previous course. We noticed it after we started running dogs.

This was the first weekend those of us in CO have seen the barrel markers and all the dogs did just fine with them! We were outdoors on grass with the golf marker things and I didn't see a single dog stop to look at them. The only time I saw wide turns was when the barrel was in the middle of the course and it was a wrap around it. With other equipment on almost every side, some dogs tended to go wide looking at a tunnel, weaves, etc. I had one of those dogs and I brought him back, tightened him up and fixed it.

I'm ok with barrels around th edges of courses, but they aren't my favorite when they are in the middle with lots of other options around. Just my $0.02

Lindsey
Mountain Dog Sports

I agree with your input!!

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Kyle on July 11, 2016, 06:46:06 AM
At the trial (Fun Raiser) I was at this weekend, there was a barrel in the warm up area. Some very kind and generous folks put whiskers around it for folks to practice on and get used to them. Great idea and thank you!

I do agree that a barrel out in the middle of a Regular course is sometimes the toughest part of the course to get. It can look kind of "out there in space" to some of our dogs and they may have some difficulty "finding" it. Part of the difficulty may just be our handling - we're not helping our dogs enough (creating a good, strong path) or the dog may not understand the concept of the obstacle well enough to actually "look" for it.  :) (This appears to mostly be with our older dogs, the young ones who started their training with barrels seem to have a lot less problems.) But, this was also the issue when hoops first came into courses and there were only one or two out there. Now all the dogs seem to be able to "find" the hoop in the middle of a course, so I figure that soon they'll be looking for, and finding, the barrel. (And now there will be whiskers or those flat discs around them to make it even easier for the dogs to find the barrel!)

I really hope that barrels stay on our courses. They are a fun, safe obstacle for the dogs! If we saw more of them on courses we'd all get used to them - just like the hoops! Please put more barrels on courses for us so we get more practice to better our handling - if nothing else.  ;D

Just my humble opinion,
Kyle
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on July 11, 2016, 10:50:24 AM
At the trial (Fun Raiser) I was at this weekend, there was a barrel in the warm up area. Some very kind and generous folks put whiskers around it for folks to practice on and get used to them. Great idea and thank you!

I do agree that a barrel out in the middle of a Regular course is sometimes the toughest part of the course to get. It can look kind of "out there in space" to some of our dogs and they may have some difficulty "finding" it. Part of the difficulty may just be our handling - we're not helping our dogs enough (creating a good, strong path) or the dog may not understand the concept of the obstacle well enough to actually "look" for it.  :) (This appears to mostly be with our older dogs, the young ones who started their training with barrels seem to have a lot less problems.) But, this was also the issue when hoops first came into courses and there were only one or two out there. Now all the dogs seem to be able to "find" the hoop in the middle of a course, so I figure that soon they'll be looking for, and finding, the barrel. (And now there will be whiskers or those flat discs around them to make it even easier for the dogs to find the barrel!)

I really hope that barrels stay on our courses. They are a fun, safe obstacle for the dogs! If we saw more of them on courses we'd all get used to them - just like the hoops! Please put more barrels on courses for us so we get more practice to better our handling - if nothing else.  ;D

Just my humble opinion,
Kyle

Good input! (other than having a barrel in the warm-up area, which isn't allowed!!)

sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sandy Langan on July 11, 2016, 01:08:07 PM
I'm confused. When was it decided a barrel in the warm up ring wasn't allowed? I remember asking about it awhile back and it was OK but a lot of clubs didn't put one out because of the dogs lifting their legs on it. Please advise so we don't break a rule at our next trial. Sandy
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on July 11, 2016, 01:32:52 PM
I'm confused. When was it decided a barrel in the warm up ring wasn't allowed? I remember asking about it awhile back and it was OK but a lot of clubs didn't put one out because of the dogs lifting their legs on it. Please advise so we don't break a rule at our next trial. Sandy

The warm-up area is for warm up and not training.  We allowed clubs to put out a barrel for awhile and in nearly every trial, it got peed on by dogs and people were always upset.  And people were using the barrel to try to train it right before going in the ring.  If people were to actually use it to help supple a dog before entering the ring, it would be the most useful tool available for warming up.  But it seems that having dogs that don't pee on a barrel is an oddity not a rule.

The fights weren't worth it anymore and a year ago we announced not to have barrels in the warm up area.  There can be a maximum of either two hoops OR two jumps OR one hoop and one jump in the warm up area.

I personally would prefer a barrel and our dogs don't pee on it, so a barrel works.  But so many clubs were furious about the constant cleaning of the barrel if put in the warm up area.

Or maybe a club could put out a barrel and initiate a $5 fine for any dog that pees on it!!!

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sandy Langan on July 11, 2016, 04:20:02 PM
We thankfully were one of the lucky clubs who didn't have any issues with the barrel but will follow rules not to have one at our future trials. Thanks for clarification. Sandy
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Jean Wilkins on July 11, 2016, 05:19:41 PM
I know that my clubs haven't had an issues with dogs peeing on barrels.  Guess we are lucky were we are in Maryland

Jean
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: dogrsqr on July 12, 2016, 06:49:56 AM
At the trial (Fun Raiser) I was at this weekend, there was a barrel in the warm up area. Some very kind and generous folks put whiskers around it for folks to practice on and get used to them. Great idea and thank you!

I do agree that a barrel out in the middle of a Regular course is sometimes the toughest part of the course to get. It can look kind of "out there in space" to some of our dogs and they may have some difficulty "finding" it. Part of the difficulty may just be our handling - we're not helping our dogs enough (creating a good, strong path) or the dog may not understand the concept of the obstacle well enough to actually "look" for it.  :) (This appears to mostly be with our older dogs, the young ones who started their training with barrels seem to have a lot less problems.) But, this was also the issue when hoops first came into courses and there were only one or two out there. Now all the dogs seem to be able to "find" the hoop in the middle of a course, so I figure that soon they'll be looking for, and finding, the barrel. (And now there will be whiskers or those flat discs around them to make it even easier for the dogs to find the barrel!)

I really hope that barrels stay on our courses. They are a fun, safe obstacle for the dogs! If we saw more of them on courses we'd all get used to them - just like the hoops! Please put more barrels on courses for us so we get more practice to better our handling - if nothing else.  ;D

Just my humble opinion,
Kyle

Good input! (other than having a barrel in the warm-up area, which isn't allowed!!)

sharon

I also did not realize we couldn't put a barrel out for warm up.  I would ask that if it's a problem with dogs lifting their leg on it, please leave the decision up to the club.  We have lots of new people coming to our NADAC trials lately and we'd like to keep them coming back.  Almost no one around the Midwest teaches barrels or uses them in classes so our newbies typically have no experience with them.  We need to put them out in warm up so the human feels comfortable with an obstacle they haven't used before.  At our May trial I just told them if a dog pees on it, the barrel goes away.

Also as far as barrels in the middle of a course.... at the trial last weekend we had a 360 degree barrel performance in Touch and Go.  It was between a 90 degree turn off an A-frame to a hoop (with an off course hoop straight off the A-frame) and a tunnel which was the next obstacle after the 360.  I have worked barrels in my back yard more than most people.  My dog can do a great wrap around a barrel under those circumstances.  It is a huge issue to have a 360 barrel between two off course possibilities with one of them being a tunnel.  I don't have the opportunity to set up the speed of full courses to practice barrels due to lack of space.  I am again asking anyone if they have any ideas to try to replicate this speed coming into these barrel performances.  I'm really tired of missing these in trials and then having my bad mood affect the rest of my day. 

Thanks,

Gina Pizzo
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on July 12, 2016, 07:12:38 AM
Good input, Gina!  I hope the course designers are also reading all posts in case I miss a set with an barrel placement with multiple off courses possible.

If a club wants to put a barrel out then can, but please don't have club members who have reactive outbursts be the one who takes the barrel out if it gets peed on!


Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Kyle on July 12, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
The warm-up area is for warm up and not training.  We allowed clubs to put out a barrel for awhile and in nearly every trial, it got peed on by dogs and people were always upset.  And people were using the barrel to try to train it right before going in the ring.  If people were to actually use it to help supple a dog before entering the ring, it would be the most useful tool available for warming up.  But it seems that having dogs that don't pee on a barrel is an oddity not a rule.

The fights weren't worth it anymore and a year ago we announced not to have barrels in the warm up area.  There can be a maximum of either two hoops OR two jumps OR one hoop and one jump in the warm up area.

I personally would prefer a barrel and our dogs don't pee on it, so a barrel works.  But so many clubs were furious about the constant cleaning of the barrel if put in the warm up area.

Or maybe a club could put out a barrel and initiate a $5 fine for any dog that pees on it!!!

Sharon

When barrels were "new" and we did have them in the warm up area it was wonderful - newbies to NADAC who were fretting that their dog didn't understand a barrel could have the opportunity to try it before their run. I watched them do it a bunch of times - took the dog about a minute to figure it out and the handlers didn't "overdo" it. It was fun to see the handler go from whining and moaning that their dog "wouldn't know it" to "wow, that was easy and fun".  ;D

I honestly can't believe a rule - that affects us all - had to be made because some clubs couldn't control what was completely under their control. Dogs peeing on the warm up barrel??? Disgusting. But I guess that goes along with one of my pet peeves of folks allowing - and even aiming their dogs at - a trash can to pee on. That trash can *belongs to someone*, it's not your property to pee on. Someone has to pick that can up at some point and either get pee on their hands or on their clothes. Gross! Mmm...maybe it kind of serves them right if it's their dog who stops on course to pee on the barrel...you asked your dog to pee on something similar earlier....hmmmm...

So we're *all* stuck with not having a barrel to warm up on nor are we able to allow our dogs to check out the "new thing" near the barrel. Thanks, male dog owners who allow their dogs to pee on other people's stuff....  >:(

-Kyle
Title: Re: 5
Post by: MoabDiane on July 12, 2016, 07:47:58 AM
Sharon:  I am laughing at all the "dog pees on barrel" notes.  Remember when Hutch peed on one in Moab??  And he wasn't even doing agility!  ROFLOL!!!!

On another note, a regular course at MDS last weekend had a barrel in (the more or less) middle of the ring. Many dogs that have good barrel performance seemed to have trouble with it (including one of mine).  I do believe it was an off course tunnel possibility that caused some major bobbles - though the tunnel seemed far enough away.  {Sorry, edited to add that I hadn't seen Lindsey's post about this several posts back - I agree with her!]

I do like having a barrel for warm up (not training, tho "familiarization" might be a good reason too).

Diane
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: dogrsqr on July 12, 2016, 08:07:41 AM
We actually say something in our general briefing about dogs peeing on anything that is manmade.  After all someone has to pick up that garbage can at some point.  If we're at a building with landscaping we also remind exhibitors not to let dogs pee on the bushes and Evergreens; a tree trunk is ok, but no foliage.  Seems like plain old good sense but ...... And yes I've owned male dogs.  I used to walk Shep down the middle of the street in our neighborhood because someone else let their dog pee on every vertical surface and I did not want him doing the same.

Gina Pizzo
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: gm5bkc on July 12, 2016, 08:26:14 AM
To get back to the performance requirements for barrels,  is it safe to say that if hoops are "on" the barrels that is the path requirement, and the dogs should know that because hoops are there to go through, not around.  And if no hoop it is the 5 foot requirement (for Elite)?

Thanks - Glenn
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Lindsey Cooper on July 12, 2016, 09:11:54 AM
Glenn - the hoops on the barrels are just for the barrelers class (from what I understand)

All other classes will not have the hoops, but will have the 5 ft (elite) rule with the markers on the ground if available.

Lindsey
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Karen Birdsong on July 13, 2016, 03:14:07 PM
I've attended two great Fund-Raisers in the past month.  There were no hoops on any barrel in any class,  including Barrelers, only path markers.  Small flat style cones were used as markers at these trials.   ;)
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: cheyaut on July 15, 2016, 07:16:56 AM
Last night I did a Touch N Go trial and it had a barrel. My first time seeing the markers around it. I wasn't sure if my BC would take it tight enough (as I've never paid much attention to how tight he takes barrels, and sometimes he does go wide... he's not a tight turning BC) but he had zero issues with it :) Most dogs I watched had no problems.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Marj Vincent on July 15, 2016, 08:06:31 AM
I judged a trial last weekend that had a few barrels in some classes. The whisker markers were used and they were awesome. The 5' wide path in Elite gave everyone the perfect sense of how their dog performed the barrel and only a couple dogs had to be resent when they went outside the markers. It was very helpful to me to know exactly when they went outside the path and it also let the handler know that they had the option to repeat the barrel if they wanted to 'take off' the 20 faults I would have faulted if they didn't try again to fix it.

I did not see any dogs have issues with the Whisker markers.  We did place two in the ground in the crating area so people could 'show' their dogs what they were and teach them to leave it, if they needed to. Most dogs just ignored them once they sniffed them.

I will say, in an indoor arena we did find the ground to be a little hard (under the fluff) to stick in the golf tees. I would suggest using a screwdriver to create a hole prior to sticking in the golf tee. The golf tees will not withstand pounding them in, they will break apart when tapped in with a hammer if your ground is hard. We used really long tees, I think the shorter version would be better. The dogs never touched them, so there really is no reason they need to be super secure in the ground.  We had no problem pushing them in the grass arenas I have been to. 
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: danforth on July 15, 2016, 08:41:59 AM
How many markers are set around a barrel?  Just 2 or could there be more?

Thanks.

Isabel
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on July 15, 2016, 08:45:24 AM
How many markers are set around a barrel?  Just 2 or could there be more?

Thanks.

Isabel

There are three.

Both sides and the back.

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Karen Birdsong on July 15, 2016, 08:47:36 AM
At the trials I was at 2-3 were used depending on the path around or by the barrel.

Our club has purchased whiskers in several colors thinking me may use them to mark bonus boxes and barrel paths.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Pam Kaye on July 15, 2016, 09:07:48 AM
Thanks for the short tee tip, Marj.  My little markers are ordered and I hope will arrive soon.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Janice_Shavor on July 16, 2016, 06:47:49 AM
Any suggestions for the colors which will stand out on dark red dirt???  The arena we use has dirt based on red clay soil;.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Marcy Matties on July 16, 2016, 07:13:28 AM
I bought yellow ones.  I think they will stand out on any surface.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: MoabDiane on July 16, 2016, 03:02:56 PM
MDS just had some red ones in grass.  That is genius!!  It shouts out to us....but just looks like long grass to dogs (red/green "color blindness").
I guess it depends on the "red" of the red dirt....but I would think red or green would be good.

While I've not seen a single dog as much as look at the markers, I think a contrasting color - to dogs' vision - could be more of an attraction.

JMHO,
diane
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Rosemary on July 17, 2016, 05:56:37 AM
I am very glad to have the barrell criteria spelled out so clearly. It makes perfect sense to have "a performance goal". I haven't invested in barrels like those in a trial so I use round trash cans and laundry baskets. 😅  I put my number cones about five feet away and it seems to highlight the path for my dog.   It always amazes me how adaptable these animals can be.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Maureen deHaan on July 20, 2016, 08:13:41 AM
Ran course with barrels for the first time since the "marker" designation discussion -  The club used the flat soccer makers to mark the areas for the barrels

some feedback - THEY LOOKED LIKE FRISBEES laying in the grass - not ok - my personal opinion.... if no toys are allowed in the ring then we shouldn't be using something that LOOKS like a toy.

Kiva - my more focused and more seasoned dog paid no attention

Zoe - my 3 y/o - husky mix - less focused , less seasoned dog found them VERY distracting (she is in Open Barrelers) - I can understand her checking them out bc she is hyper-aware of her surroundings always and change is bad for her - but when she tried to pick one up (she loves frisbees) that was not cool - also - Zoe has a LOVELY barrel performance having learned agility with barrels since a pup - These markers were distracting enough to actually make her go wide.

many dogs checked them out at the trial - all levels

went out and bought some to use in classes to desensitize - but I will never use them in trials - I will be using golf tees with surveyor tape bc I also don't like the whiskers as I think they could be dangerous to the feet regardless of what everyone says - it all depends on who is putting them in the ground and how soft / hard the ground is -

Just some feedback for what it might be worth
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: mephalon on July 20, 2016, 08:58:27 AM
Interestingly enough my Roxanne- who in the entire 11 years I have had her has never really had any interest in any toys other than a Jolly Ball on a rope when she was a puppy- stopped, went to the flat cones and stuck her nose into the hole in the middle- so having these types of cone markers on course were defintely noticed by the dogs.  It was interesting because I don't recall her ever looking at a number cone- and we don't train with those in practice.    I didn't run my novice dog in barrelers so I don't know if he would have noticed- probably would have. 

Definitely need to train all the different types of markers that will be used but I like the surveyors tape tied to a golf tee idea the best as the dogs are used to seeing tape from chances.



Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Richard Wolfe on July 20, 2016, 10:53:13 AM
We had our first experience with the whiskers this past weekend.  On the first run with the barrel, Rowdy finished the dog walk and started towards the barrel but sort of veered out a foot or so aiming to see what the whisker was.  He got about a foot from it and was satisfied and completed the barrel performance correctly.  LOL!!!!
Both of my other dogs completely ignored it.  I'm still convinced it's a non-issue unless the handler worries about it.  Same with many of the other problems we freak out about.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: mephalon on July 20, 2016, 11:02:00 AM
I don't think it is always a handler issue. -  I actually was pretty convinced my dog wouldn't even notice the flat cones (even though dogs running before me had) as she is just not that type of dog so I didn't even think twice about them on the course.  I was kinda surprised when she went over to it-  then once she was satisifed it was nothing we moved on.   Just made reminded me that you never know what your dog will find interesting.   :)   
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Richard Wolfe on July 20, 2016, 11:07:24 AM
I don't think it is always a handler issue. -  I actually was pretty convinced my dog wouldn't even notice the flat cones (even though dogs running before me had) as she is just not that type of dog so I didn't even think twice about them on the course.  I was kinda surprised when she went over to it-  then once she was satisifed it was nothing we moved on.   Just made reminded me that you never know what your dog will find interesting.   :)
I agree.  I didn't even notice the whisker myself until Rowdy sort of pointed it out to me.  But my point was that we make the problem worse when we obsess on it.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: MoabDiane on July 20, 2016, 11:55:33 AM
Richard, just curious:  was this trial outdoors or inside?  If inside, what is the surface like and what color were the 'whiskers' ?
diane
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Richard Wolfe on July 20, 2016, 12:10:22 PM
Richard, just curious:  was this trial outdoors or inside?  If inside, what is the surface like and what color were the 'whiskers' ?
diane
Hi, Diane.  It was indoors with very good lighting on green Astroturf or whatever they call it now.  I didn't pay much attention but the whiskers were orange or red, I think.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: MoabDiane on July 20, 2016, 02:52:22 PM
Thanks for the info.  I think on any kind of indoor turf, the "whiskers" would stick up much higher than outdoors, where they're half-buried in grass.
I wonder if "trimming" them to about half length would reduce the dog investigations....just a thought.

diane
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Richard Wolfe on July 20, 2016, 02:57:13 PM
Thanks for the info.  I think on any kind of indoor turf, the "whiskers" would stick up much higher than outdoors, where they're half-buried in grass.
I wonder if "trimming" them to about half length would reduce the dog investigations....just a thought.

diane
These lay pretty flat on the floor and looked like a little mustache!  Trimming would be limited to what the judge could see as they still have to position for seeing the contact performances, probably.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Chris on Mushtown Road on July 20, 2016, 03:05:25 PM
Question: has the use of barrel markers (whiskers, bean bags, or cones) been extended beyond Funraisers?  And will we see them at Champs?
And are they required on VT runs with barrels?

I tried bean bags yesterday, and DDare ignored them; I have orange golf whiskers on order and will get nails with which to secure them in my grass. 
I am just wondering what to train and expect. Thanks!

Chris
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Richard Wolfe on July 20, 2016, 03:11:32 PM
Hi, Chris!  Long time, no see!  Ours were NOT a fun-raiser, it was a club trial.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Karen Birdsong on July 20, 2016, 04:15:28 PM
Re:  What type of barrel markers will be used at champs...visit the Rules section of the forum and look under No More Hoops on Barrels.  Here is a post from June 28th.   Just remember, everything is subject to change.


Re: No more Hoops on Barrels
Reply #58 on: June 28, 2016, 05:22:26 PM

Quote from: Lisa Bonker  In The Zone Agility on June 28, 2016, 05:01:07 PM

    what type of barrel marker will you be using at the champs?

Reply:  Golf whiskers.  Some day we will return to hoops on barrels, once people understand their use and purpose!
    Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Chris on Mushtown Road on July 20, 2016, 05:00:50 PM
Thanks, Karen and Richard. Since there is always Change (or, Improvement!) I like to ask after a rule's been announced and digested!

Chris
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Maureen deHaan on July 21, 2016, 05:20:53 AM
We had our first experience with the whiskers this past weekend.  On the first run with the barrel, Rowdy finished the dog walk and started towards the barrel but sort of veered out a foot or so aiming to see what the whisker was.  He got about a foot from it and was satisfied and completed the barrel performance correctly.  LOL!!!!
Both of my other dogs completely ignored it.  I'm still convinced it's a non-issue unless the handler worries about it.  Same with many of the other problems we freak out about.

Well I am certainly NOT a person who obsesses or freaks out about things -  so the fact that the flat soccer markers were distracting to my and many other people's dogs was bc they were just that - a distraction.

That being said  - I put them out in class tonight and I also put out some whiskers - all the dogs ignored the whiskers and some did look at the flat cones more - again my young dog was distracted by them - doing foot touches on them and thinking about picking them up  - but once we got over the part of class where we were desensitizing the dogs to them they were all fine - including mine - training issue yes - but my issue is still that they look like frisbees or targets and shouldn't be used in the ring -

I will also say that now that I have used the whiskers - I like them for marking distance lines and will use them in class for such- and would be ok with them around barrels -  but golf tees with surveyor tape will still be my first choice
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Lois Mierau on July 21, 2016, 08:41:47 AM
Could we use golf tees and surveyors tape and make an actual line like the Chances line?

Lois Mierau
Sondog Agility
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on July 21, 2016, 08:43:09 AM
Question: has the use of barrel markers (whiskers, bean bags, or cones) been extended beyond Funraisers?  And will we see them at Champs?
And are they required on VT runs with barrels?

I tried bean bags yesterday, and DDare ignored them; I have orange golf whiskers on order and will get nails with which to secure them in my grass. 
I am just wondering what to train and expect. Thanks!

Chris

Yes, they are being used at many trials now.  Yes, they will be used at champs.  Yes, they should be used on VT runs.

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on July 21, 2016, 08:43:52 AM
Could we use golf tees and surveyors tape and make an actual line like the Chances line?

Lois Mierau
Sondog Agility

Yes you could.

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Karen Birdsong on July 21, 2016, 12:22:20 PM
I feel this all comes down to familiarization and training.  We train out dogs not to visit the ring crew, not to pick up the numbers, not to grab the hoops (yep seen that), not to leap the marker tap by a mile, not to pee on the barrel, etc.  Amazingly they learn, and often learn quickly (LOL), and we love them for it.   

Thank you NADAC for letting us know about this change prior to Champs, it is greatly appreciated.  Sounds like a lot of folks are taking this opportunity to familiarize their dogs and to reassure themselves that their team is ready.      ;)
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Chris on Mushtown Road on July 21, 2016, 06:11:28 PM
Question: has the use of barrel markers (whiskers, bean bags, or cones) been extended beyond Funraisers?  And will we see them at Champs?
And are they required on VT runs with barrels?

I tried bean bags yesterday, and DDare ignored them; I have orange golf whiskers on order and will get nails with which to secure them in my grass. 
I am just wondering what to train and expect. Thanks!

Chris


And I got my orange golf whiskers today---and am very happy to find that a golf tee fit into the slot and I was able to easily "install" a practice one. Which DDare also ignored.  I agree with Karen--any stress about these, lives in our minds, not the dogs'  All id good!

Chris

Yes, they are being used at many trials now.  Yes, they will be used at champs.  Yes, they should be used on VT runs.

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Donna Fernandez on July 24, 2016, 07:20:54 AM
I hate to show my ignorance, but what are golf whiskers? I tried to google both what they are and where you purchase them and came up empty.

Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on July 24, 2016, 08:43:23 AM
I hate to show my ignorance, but what are golf whiskers? I tried to google both what they are and where you purchase them and came up empty.

Thanks for your help!

Amazon is where I buy them, less than $8 for 25 of them. Many colors available.  I bought yellow and bright pink.

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Donna Fernandez on July 24, 2016, 09:35:30 AM
I hate to show my ignorance, but what are golf whiskers? I tried to google both what they are and where you purchase them and came up empty.

Thanks for your help!

Amazon is where I buy them, less than $8 for 25 of them. Many colors available.  I bought yellow and bright pink.

Sharon


Thanks! Now I know what we're talking about! They're kinda cute :)
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: garypaula on August 01, 2016, 08:42:05 AM
We hosted our first trial with markers around the barrels.  4RK9s hosts trials at the Quad Cities Dog Center in Davenport, Iowa at an indoor facility with artificial turf.  We used the same bright orange bean bags for the barrels that we always use for holding down the tape lines in Chances.  The experienced dogs had no troubles at all even though many had never seen this before.  The younger, less experienced dogs had a few difficulties, but no more than you would expect.  All in all, it went fine and I heard no extended complaining from anyone about the experience.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: danforth on August 04, 2016, 07:32:33 AM
I am looking at the VT courses for ER1 and ER2 of Antique.   The path around the barrel as obstacles 7 and 18.   How would markers be placed around that barrel?   Can anyone provide a diagram?

Thanks.

Isabel
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: garypaula on August 07, 2016, 04:47:55 PM
This is tricky, because the dog takes two different paths around the barrel, depending where he/she is on the course.  In a case like this, I would think you have to place markers so they do not get in the dog's way either time and yet mark the parameters as much as possible.  It would appear to me that only one marker could be used that would be out of the dog's way each time around the barrel.  My opinion is based on being the chief course builder a couple of weeks ago, working with the judge.  The main thing you want to do is mark the parameters, but not get in the way of the natural path of the dog around the barrel.  If you were to put a marker to the "south" of the barrel, it would be in the dog's way going from 17 - 18 - 19 (ER1) or 3 - 4 - 5 (ER2), for example.  Others are certainly welcome to express their own opinions.
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 07, 2016, 05:19:52 PM
This is tricky, because the dog takes two different paths around the barrel, depending where he/she is on the course.  In a case like this, I would think you have to place markers so they do not get in the dog's way either time and yet mark the parameters as much as possible.  It would appear to me that only one marker could be used that would be out of the dog's way each time around the barrel.  My opinion is based on being the chief course builder a couple of weeks ago, working with the judge.  The main thing you want to do is mark the parameters, but not get in the way of the natural path of the dog around the barrel.  If you were to put a marker to the "south" of the barrel, it would be in the dog's way going from 17 - 18 - 19 (ER1) or 3 - 4 - 5 (ER2), for example.  Others are certainly welcome to express their own opinions.

Good input!

Sharon
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: danforth on August 07, 2016, 06:33:50 PM
So if I had a question at a trial, I guess that asking the judge for clarification would be the way to go?

Isabel
Title: Re: 5-foot Rule for Barrels
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 07, 2016, 09:24:17 PM
So if I had a question at a trial, I guess that asking the judge for clarification would be the way to go?

Isabel

Yes, it is best to ask the judge at that particular trial how they have set their markers.

Sharon