NADAC Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: KarissaKS on August 13, 2016, 10:37:58 AM

Title: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: KarissaKS on August 13, 2016, 10:37:58 AM
This was posted in the Championships Courses thread:

"X-Hoopers will be a part of a NATCH at some point in the future.  Maybe it should be sooner than later!  It is a great class that combines an awesome test of directional skills.  One of the best classes we have and should be an integral part of the NATCH program.

Sharon"

Can you please expand on this? What is the expected timeline of this change? Will there be any other additions or changes to the NATCH/V-NATCH program?
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 13, 2016, 11:11:50 AM
This was posted in the Championships Courses thread:

"X-Hoopers will be a part of a NATCH at some point in the future.  Maybe it should be sooner than later!  It is a great class that combines an awesome test of directional skills.  One of the best classes we have and should be an integral part of the NATCH program.

Sharon"

Can you please expand on this? What is the expected timeline of this change? Will there be any other additions or changes to the NATCH/V-NATCH program?

It will start with clubs being required to offer X-Hoopers in some of their trials.  I am sure that most of the current NATCH dogs will be long retired before any of them have to learn a hoop circle.  Maybe I will be retired also and it will never happen!

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: LeeAnne McAdam on August 13, 2016, 12:25:52 PM
Whether or not X-Hoopers ever becomes part of a NATCH, I sure hope clubs will offer it.  I love the class and firmly believe that it is one of the best training tools you can have for an agility dog.
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: aprweber on August 13, 2016, 12:51:41 PM
Would 10 qualifying runs be required?

April
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 13, 2016, 01:22:31 PM
Would 10 qualifying runs be required?

April

Once the basic title is earned, yes.

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Donna & Gracie on August 13, 2016, 08:26:01 PM
I agree with Leeann. Really enjoy extreme hoopers. Have generally more success with extreme Hooper's over regular hoopers.  :D
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Kyle on August 13, 2016, 09:11:03 PM

It will start with clubs being required to offer X-Hoopers in some of their trials.  I am sure that most of the current NATCH dogs will be long retired before any of them have to learn a hoop circle.  Maybe I will be retired also and it will never happen!

Sharon

Sharon? RETIRED?? Oh yeah, like THAT'S gonna happen...  ;D

-Kyle
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 13, 2016, 09:44:58 PM

It will start with clubs being required to offer X-Hoopers in some of their trials.  I am sure that most of the current NATCH dogs will be long retired before any of them have to learn a hoop circle.  Maybe I will be retired also and it will never happen!

Sharon

Sharon? RETIRED?? Oh yeah, like THAT'S gonna happen...  ;D

-Kyle

I am close........... Busi is only a few Q's away from her third Purple Achievement Cup and her 2nd Purple Versatility Achievement Cup............  Gia is only 3 Q's away from a Purple Achievement Cup......... and Able is half way to a MODSQUAD.... that would make for a great retirement party!

The negativity in this awesome sport is higher than ever............ and I just have a really hard time with negative people.  I have always lived by the "you are either part of the problem or part of the solution" and people have always supported that I work towards solutions with my training and my goals for NADAC.  But more people seem to act like I am the problem and not any part of a solution.  I love agility, the training for it, and NADAC, both where it has been and where it is going.  I love working with people and seeing their eyes light up when their dog "gets it"!  But I can do that without competing.

Chris and Amanda have really stepped it up and do a good percentage of the NADAC work.  If they can tackle NADAC with positive and eager attitudes, they can move NADAC into the next decade.  I will always be there for full support!

I won't retire from NADAC yet, but I might retire from running dogs.  I don't know if I will run at champs.  Pretty sure I won't run Busi with her increased loss of hearing.  A couple Purple Achievement Cups will be more than enough for her to accomplish!!  Gia is an on again, off again dog with her team skills and Able will return to Jean for her to finish those goals and they will be great together!

I have the best group of young dogs that anyone could ever have.  They are beyond amazing and they might be what forces me to get back in the ring in another year............ so you are probably right............. new dogs, new goals and I am a goal setter..... I just haven't set any new goals lately!!

I love the idea of a combo class using a hoop circle on a course....... but that goal with probably go by the wayside due to threats of people quitting NADAC because of a hoop circle and I don't need that for a business for my children!  So I can just do that at home and enjoy the thrill of it.  It is the most fun I have had in the sport for years!  But that is me, not the agility world...... not the "real" world, as I have been told.  I can live in my little world and totally love it!

Anyone that wants to join my little world is welcome to come by and visit me!!

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Kyle on August 13, 2016, 10:46:49 PM
Sharon,

I *probably* should go private with this post but as my best friends know, I rarely miss an opportunity to give my opinion....in pretty straight language....just ask Amanda and Chris! hahaha!

First off, there has been nothing said, other than an off hand comment from you, in response to someone else, that maybe X-Hoopers should be part of a NATCH. People are over reacting and freaking out over an off hand comment. Everyone take a breath. Please.

Yes, I understand that those of us going to Championships have been "forewarned" - or *more correctly* been given a heads up - that a Hoop Circle will be included in *one* run. I am sad to hear of so many people who enter trials that are not given the opportunity to try an X-Hoopers class. Especially in an area where there may only be a couple of weekend trials in a year. That's just darn sad. But, in my humble opinion, you still have the opportunity to politely request the clubs offer this class. You're paying entry fees! Instead of just silently packing up your toys and staying home, have a nice conversation with the trial secretary and some club members as they are planning for their next trial. They might be delighted to try it out if some interest was shown! If the club has the hoops, get your fellow entrants to bring a few extra ex-pens and have some fun!

I am ticked off to hear that clubs that offer a few NADAC trials/year don't offer it at least once. Clubs should have figured out that Hoopers was here to stay (we were clearly told that!) and that the Hoop Circle was going to be *it*. Shame on you clubs! For trainers who say they teach their students to do well in NADAC, how how how could you omit a Hoop Circle? It is an awesome way to give students and their dogs a little distance and help in directionals in a very easy way! Shame shame shame....

Sharon, you are not the problem. Don't let anyone *ever* make you feel that way.

People are forgetting that the old Gamblers class and it's new "incarnation" as the Chances class is where AKC got its "Fast" class. People are doing that class in huge numbers. It takes distance and directionals to handle it and people who do AKC should all thank *you* for that. You are not "the problem", you are the innovator. Who also started the whole rubber matting and dumping those dang toe breakers on contacts? Could someone please remind me??? What organization keeps our old dogs running well into what would have been "retirement age"? NADAC. Lowered jump heights and ground classes (hoops!!) are keeping our dogs sound longer and us out there having fun with them longer. Innovative thinking again.

Yup, I get that you're being pounded on and it sucks. Big time.

Wise choice to send us that Combo course map. Those of us who have done X-Hoopers can let the others know that what would be asked *for the Hoop Circle* part would be typical for a Novice run. Certainly not Open or Elite!

The agility world needs you...they need you to continue doing research on what will keep our dogs healthier; keep on finding new and interesting games for us to play because the old ones do get boring for dogs *and* people; keep on showing us those amazing training skills you have so we can reach higher with our own. Please do not lose your enthusiasm for all of this because of just a few....there's many more of us who do appreciate you just like you are!

Sending hugs,
Kyle



Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Jeanne Allen on August 13, 2016, 11:10:30 PM
Kyle, thanks for the post!  I was at work all evening reading all of these posts and I was getting depressed over it.  What you said is all if not more of what I was thinking.  THANK YOU for the post.

I do not know if others have noticed this ot not, but there seems to be a lot more negativity on this list.  At this point I would say quite all off the negativity and the wining and go have fun with your dog, they are only with us for a short time.
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: LeeAnne McAdam on August 13, 2016, 11:11:07 PM
I would hug you if I could, Kyle!
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Cindy on August 13, 2016, 11:16:42 PM
I agree with everything you said Kyle!!  There is so much I have to be thankful for in my life that is directly attributable to NADAC and Sharon.  I cannot imagine an agility world without her.

As for me and my dogs, we will happily visit Sharon's world every time we get a chance!!
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Shirlene Clark on August 14, 2016, 12:12:29 AM
Well said Kyle  ....so very well said !

Sharon's forward thinking and passion has helped the sport evolve, other agility venues evolve and many handlers evolve. Not just in North America but here across the globe in Australia.

Thank you Sharon for being you and creating your world and sharing it with me.  Your world is to me the real world :)
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Nicky wise on August 14, 2016, 03:31:31 AM
Well said Kyle , I hope more people read your post and support a true sport.
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Kelly Wise on August 14, 2016, 03:32:47 AM
Sharon your vision is such an inspiration to us all. Your ideas are amazing. Thank you
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Cherie Singer on August 14, 2016, 11:40:20 AM
I started to write this post as part of the Championship course thread but after seeing this thread decided to post it here so this is a bit of overlap. I don’t often read the forum for a reason and these strings are exactly why as it becomes less about constructive ideas and more about picking others apart for their thoughtful comments. Disagreement is not negativity if done constructively but rather an opportunity to open a line of communication so both sides are heard and valued. I do want to say that I LOVE NADAC, always have, always will and will be at Champs prepared for whatever is thrown at me.

I have been participating in NADAC for 16 years. Not as long as some of you but longer than most. I long ago accepted the fact that this is Sharon's game and I should keep just keep my head down and train my dogs to the best of my ability. It really is the best game around.  But also in that time it has become a game of the haves and the have nots....you either have big distance or you don't, you have great speed or you don't, you either have the means to travel to Sharon and learn what is coming down the pike or you don't, you either live in an area where you are exposed to all NADAC has to offer or you don't (I do and am very fortunate), or you either hear about the new rules or changes or you don't until you go to a trial and the judge tells you...it is all very fluid and you shouldn't get too attached. I have been a trial chair, secretary, club officer for many years, mentor to new handlers and essentially worked my butt off to support NADAC in my area.

But I have also spent years feeling marginalized that just because I go to trials to have FUN with my dog and earn a 10 point Q rather than something more that I am that lesser competitor who is afraid to try new things...which is untrue.  I try new things when I can and when I train but after working 60 hours a week, I want to go to a trial to enjoy connecting with my dog as a team and often times, new things are not the way to do that. I will leave frustrated, my dog will be confused and it is plain not fun. However, I DO expect to be challenged at Champs. Champs is a mental game as much as it is about whatever course you run. Bring it on.

That being said, I have run X-hoopers and will train it before the event but not everyone has or will have that opportunity (haves/have nots) even with the helpful videos. So if we all had to earn the same points to get to Champs to participate in all the challenges, and if x-hoopers (or barrelers or whatever) is a part of that, we should have all had to demonstrate the proficiency at a trial before we get there by earning points/a title in the class. Success in numbered hoopers will not equate as it is a different set of skills - at least the way most of us run it. 

I deeply respect Sharon for all that she have done for the sport and for me personally. But Lin B's comment from the Championship course post that  NADAC funraisers at Sharon's are different from the 'real world' is absolutely true and has been for many years.  The decisions many clubs make in what we offer has as much to do with what our exhibitors will enter and whether that can equate into paying the bills for the trial as it does what we ourselves might like to run. in the real world, we compete with other venues on any given weekend, struggle with defending how different NADAC is and how that is better for your dog and how much fun the courses can be. People who go to Sharon's for trials already know all those things.  Requiring clubs to add this class or that class will create a financial burden that will impact entries so I hope that will be considered in any future decisions. We don't have the luxury of saying that you can do what you like or go home and do your own thing. We need exhibitors to come to our trials and spend their hard earned money. If you make it part of the championship program, it will get offered but the real question will be at what cost?

My hope is that I am not vilified for writing this.  In many ways, I represent the 98% of NADAC exhibitors who carry on for the love of the sport, the camaraderie with our friends and the teamwork that NADAC inspires us to achieve with our dogs. I am not in the “in circle” and I venture to say many exhibitors feel like their voice is not heard or are too afraid to look stupid or be called out for expressing a concern. This post is less about the “Circle of Fun” that X-hoopers represents and more about how constructive ideas from exhibitors are only valued if they are in agreement with the status quo.

Cherie Singer & the Singer Shelties
Reno/Sparks, NV
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 14, 2016, 11:49:41 AM
I started to write this post as part of the Championship course thread but after seeing this thread decided to post it here so this is a bit of overlap. I don’t often read the forum for a reason and these strings are exactly why as it becomes less about constructive ideas and more about picking others apart for their thoughtful comments. Disagreement is not negativity if done constructively but rather an opportunity to open a line of communication so both sides are heard and valued. I do want to say that I LOVE NADAC, always have, always will and will be at Champs prepared for whatever is thrown at me.

I have been participating in NADAC for 16 years. Not as long as some of you but longer than most. I long ago accepted the fact that this is Sharon's game and I should keep just keep my head down and train my dogs to the best of my ability. It really is the best game around.  But also in that time it has become a game of the haves and the have nots....you either have big distance or you don't, you have great speed or you don't, you either have the means to travel to Sharon and learn what is coming down the pike or you don't, you either live in an area where you are exposed to all NADAC has to offer or you don't (I do and am very fortunate), or you either hear about the new rules or changes or you don't until you go to a trial and the judge tells you...it is all very fluid and you shouldn't get too attached. I have been a trial chair, secretary, club officer for many years, mentor to new handlers and essentially worked my butt off to support NADAC in my area.

But I have also spent years feeling marginalized that just because I go to trials to have FUN with my dog and earn a 10 point Q rather than something more that I am that lesser competitor who is afraid to try new things...which is untrue.  I try new things when I can and when I train but after working 60 hours a week, I want to go to a trial to enjoy connecting with my dog as a team and often times, new things are not the way to do that. I will leave frustrated, my dog will be confused and it is plain not fun. However, I DO expect to be challenged at Champs. Champs is a mental game as much as it is about whatever course you run. Bring it on.

That being said, I have run X-hoopers and will train it before the event but not everyone has or will have that opportunity (haves/have nots) even with the helpful videos. So if we all had to earn the same points to get to Champs to participate in all the challenges, and if x-hoopers (or barrelers or whatever) is a part of that, we should have all had to demonstrate the proficiency at a trial before we get there by earning points/a title in the class. Success in numbered hoopers will not equate as it is a different set of skills - at least the way most of us run it.

I deeply respect Sharon for all that she have done for the sport and for me personally. But Lin B's comment from the Championship course post that  NADAC funraisers at Sharon's are different from the 'real world' is absolutely true and has been for many years.  The decisions many clubs make in what we offer has as much to do with what our exhibitors will enter and whether that can equate into paying the bills for the trial as it does what we ourselves might like to run. in the real world, we compete with other venues on any given weekend, struggle with defending how different NADAC is and how that is better for your dog and how much fun the courses can be. People who go to Sharon's for trials already know all those things.  Requiring clubs to add this class or that class will create a financial burden that will impact entries so I hope that will be considered in any future decisions. We don't have the luxury of saying that you can do what you like or go home and do your own thing. We need exhibitors to come to our trials and spend their hard earned money. If you make it part of the championship program, it will get offered but the real question will be at what cost?

My hope is that I am not vilified for writing this.  In many ways, I represent the 98% of NADAC exhibitors who carry on for the love of the sport, the camaraderie with our friends and the teamwork that NADAC inspires us to achieve with our dogs. I am not in the “in circle” and I venture to say many exhibitors feel like their voice is not heard or are too afraid to look stupid or be called out for expressing a concern. This post is less about the “Circle of Fun” that X-hoopers represents and more about how constructive ideas from exhibitors are only valued if they are in agreement with the status quo.

Cherie Singer & the Singer Shelties
Reno/Sparks, NV

Good input, Cherie, as always.  We always love to get constructive input from competitors, always have.

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 14, 2016, 12:01:18 PM
I am not in the “in circle” and I venture to say many exhibitors feel like their voice is not heard or are too afraid to look stupid or be called out for expressing a concern. This post is less about the “Circle of Fun” that X-hoopers represents and more about how constructive ideas from exhibitors are only valued if they are in agreement with the status quo.

Cherie Singer & the Singer Shelties
Reno/Sparks, NV

Cherie, you are part of the "in circle".  It is the 'in circle' of Reno, NV.   The same as there is an "in circle" in Northern CA or southern CA, in Texas, in the Midwest, or any other area.  EVERY area has an "in circle"....  every area.  Yep, Bend has an "in circle"!  But ours is open to everyone, where most areas aren't.  We welcome people to come, socialize with us, share our pond, our equipment and have great conversations together.  Our "in circle" changes with every trial as we have a different group every weekend.  As people travel less and more and more areas have the same competitors at each trial, the tighter and tighter those circles before.  And as those circles tighten, the more those in those tight circles feel "outside" the big circle.

We have another whole group of awesome Canadian exhibitors this week and lots of great conversations.  We love the fact that our circle changes every week and we can get fresh new input and views all summer long!

You are only outside of our circle if you choose to be.  We have an open door to our circle and love input, different opinions and viewpoints.  Now back out to a great trial this weekend!

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Rebecca Kriz on August 14, 2016, 12:29:29 PM
I think this has been brought up before in some other thread, but are X-hoopers and Barrlers ever going to be added to VT?  That might help those in areas that don't have those classes offered at trials.
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 14, 2016, 12:52:59 PM
I think this has been brought up before in some other thread, but are X-hoopers and Barrlers ever going to be added to VT?  That might help those in areas that don't have those classes offered at trials.

Good input.  It is possible to add X-Hoopers now that flow isn't scored.

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Kyle on August 14, 2016, 01:22:48 PM
Cherie,

I agree with so much of what you wrote. What we all might try to think about is even if something new has been added or changed, lots of them got "tweaked" along the way, most likely due to constructive criticism from "the masses"  :). My old brain cells aren't worth much lately, but here's some changes I can think of...

Remember when we had to use poker chips for Chances? (Sounded good to begin with...  ;) )
Strategic Hoopers vs. Numbered Hoopers... I think our wallets voted on this one. (But to be fair, clubs can still choose between the two!)
Gaters left quickly...
Barrelers was a course of only barrels. Holey moley that was hard! (Fun, but really hard!) That got made into a conglomeration of gates and barrels with hoops...now they're gone.

As you said, we expect to be challenged at Championships. I think Sharon said it was in Tennessee where we went out to walk the course and all we saw were hoops. It was like, "where's the REST of the obstacles??". Yup, numbered hoopers was our unknown "challenge" that year! (I remember crashing and burning on that one...) I don't remember which Champs it was, and there on the course were a couple of barrels. What the heck??? We had no clue... I remember a whole bunch of us taking turns out in the potty area *teaching* our dogs the barrel by using trash cans, trees, anything! It was crazy!  :o Of course we're all told about the "longer than normal" courses at Champs, but do you remember having the tunnel that connected the two ends of that enormous arena and we had to do the whole ginormous thing?! And, yes, this last little memory only affected several folks who ran in Stakes - when they could get "extra" points (or something like that) *IF* they took less steps?? If there wasn't that twist, we never would have seen Mike Omartian's run with Paul Kirk's "Elle" - that should be shown at every freakin' Championships - FOREVER!  ;D

Like you, I am in an area where we have X-Hoopers a lot. So, I guess, I must admit I would be one the "haves". I've already stated how sad I am that clubs don't offer X-Hoopers in many more areas. I can see how it would have a financial impact on many to introduce an "unknown". If my faulty memory serves me, I think the Manzanita club did a "fun" run kind of thing when X-Hoopers first got really going...I think they set it up on a Friday afternoon before a trial, or did it after the trial on Saturdays for a *nominal* fee of like $2 or $5. (It could have been free knowing Rainey, I just don't remember.) People could just go out and have some fun trying it out. Maybe this is an option for those clubs who don't want to offer it as a "regularly scheduled course"?? Might even bring in a few extra bucks!  ;) Interestingly enough, the folks who seem to get the most kicks out of it are the ASCA people! They love a course on the flat! Once they were introduced, they were hooked! Maybe it's kind of like having to learn that veggies can taste good as a kid...mom just had to keep putting it in front of us to get us to at least *try* it...??? I bet if clubs get a little "creative", it could easily happen. If a club doesn't want to set it up on a Saturday after the trial, maybe a few folks who *want* to do it could volunteer to set it up and run some fun runs? Once again, get creative and have fun with friends - both fuzzy and non-fuzzy - this way!  ;D

Just some thoughts....

See you at Championships, Cherie & Shelties!
-Kyle


Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on August 14, 2016, 04:34:32 PM
Thank you, Cheri, for writing your post.  I agree with your reasoning but would like to add one more comment about requiring X-Hoopers and/or Barrelers at a regular weekend trial.   Both of the trials I chair are held out doors with no lighting in March and in September.  I would be happy to offer both of these classes, but we just don't have enough daylight.  A few years ago, we added three classes on Friday afternoon to our March trial in order to be able to offer more choices over the weekend.  Last year (or the year before) we started offering Intro in some classes and it has become very popular.  As Cheri said, if we are required to add X-Hoopers and/or Barrelers, something would have to go, not to mention, we have a very heavy AKC presents here and they would not support these classes. 
Linda Anderson
Star City K 9 Training
Roanoke, VA
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 14, 2016, 05:07:35 PM
Thank you, Cheri, for writing your post.  I agree with your reasoning but would like to add one more comment about requiring X-Hoopers and/or Barrelers at a regular weekend trial.   Both of the trials I chair are held out doors with no lighting in March and in September.  I would be happy to offer both of these classes, but we just don't have enough daylight.  A few years ago, we added three classes on Friday afternoon to our March trial in order to be able to offer more choices over the weekend.  Last year (or the year before) we started offering Intro in some classes and it has become very popular.  As Cheri said, if we are required to add X-Hoopers and/or Barrelers, something would have to go, not to mention, we have a very heavy AKC presents here and they would not support these classes. 
Linda Anderson
Star City K 9 Training
Roanoke, VA

Sad that AKC mandates a NADAC club choices.  But sometimes it does.

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Becky Woodruff on August 14, 2016, 05:12:32 PM
Today those of us in Bend OR enjoyed a beautiful sunny day playing agility.  We had exhibitors from Western OR, Montana, and California.  The Canadians showed up last night and were on hand to help set courses, change jump heights and run leashes!   I think everyone was made to feel welcome.  Not many Q’s were earned today, but we had fun with our dogs.  There was some heckling and some good natured teasing.  There was also support and cheering.

But today I also feel sad.

It makes me sad to read that you have spent years feeling marginalized because you go to trials to have fun with your dog.

It makes me sad to read that if you earn a 10 point Q rather than something more you are made to feel you are a lesser competitor.

It makes me sad that people who have not ever once even tried X-Hoopers are dissing it.
If we can teach our dogs something more complicated like weaving, then we are certainly capable of teaching them to run through a gated circle with 4 hoops!  The dogs go in and they come out –

This makes me sad because it is said with such absolute certainty.
What does it even mean?  (Different = good? Or Different = bad?)
**But Lin B's comment from the Championship course post that  NADAC funraisers at Sharon's are different from the 'real world' is absolutely true and has been for many years.**

Becky Woodruff

I started to write this post as part of the Championship course thread but after seeing this thread decided to post it here so this is a bit of overlap. I don’t often read the forum for a reason and these strings are exactly why as it becomes less about constructive ideas and more about picking others apart for their thoughtful comments. Disagreement is not negativity if done constructively but rather an opportunity to open a line of communication so both sides are heard and valued. I do want to say that I LOVE NADAC, always have, always will and will be at Champs prepared for whatever is thrown at me.

I have been participating in NADAC for 16 years. Not as long as some of you but longer than most. I long ago accepted the fact that this is Sharon's game and I should keep just keep my head down and train my dogs to the best of my ability. It really is the best game around.  But also in that time it has become a game of the haves and the have nots....you either have big distance or you don't, you have great speed or you don't, you either have the means to travel to Sharon and learn what is coming down the pike or you don't, you either live in an area where you are exposed to all NADAC has to offer or you don't (I do and am very fortunate), or you either hear about the new rules or changes or you don't until you go to a trial and the judge tells you...it is all very fluid and you shouldn't get too attached. I have been a trial chair, secretary, club officer for many years, mentor to new handlers and essentially worked my butt off to support NADAC in my area.

But I have also spent years feeling marginalized that just because I go to trials to have FUN with my dog and earn a 10 point Q rather than something more that I am that lesser competitor who is afraid to try new things...which is untrue.  I try new things when I can and when I train but after working 60 hours a week, I want to go to a trial to enjoy connecting with my dog as a team and often times, new things are not the way to do that. I will leave frustrated, my dog will be confused and it is plain not fun. However, I DO expect to be challenged at Champs. Champs is a mental game as much as it is about whatever course you run. Bring it on.

That being said, I have run X-hoopers and will train it before the event but not everyone has or will have that opportunity (haves/have nots) even with the helpful videos. So if we all had to earn the same points to get to Champs to participate in all the challenges, and if x-hoopers (or barrelers or whatever) is a part of that, we should have all had to demonstrate the proficiency at a trial before we get there by earning points/a title in the class. Success in numbered hoopers will not equate as it is a different set of skills - at least the way most of us run it.

I deeply respect Sharon for all that she have done for the sport and for me personally. But Lin B's comment from the Championship course post that  NADAC funraisers at Sharon's are different from the 'real world' is absolutely true and has been for many years.  The decisions many clubs make in what we offer has as much to do with what our exhibitors will enter and whether that can equate into paying the bills for the trial as it does what we ourselves might like to run. in the real world, we compete with other venues on any given weekend, struggle with defending how different NADAC is and how that is better for your dog and how much fun the courses can be. People who go to Sharon's for trials already know all those things.  Requiring clubs to add this class or that class will create a financial burden that will impact entries so I hope that will be considered in any future decisions. We don't have the luxury of saying that you can do what you like or go home and do your own thing. We need exhibitors to come to our trials and spend their hard earned money. If you make it part of the championship program, it will get offered but the real question will be at what cost?

My hope is that I am not vilified for writing this.  In many ways, I represent the 98% of NADAC exhibitors who carry on for the love of the sport, the camaraderie with our friends and the teamwork that NADAC inspires us to achieve with our dogs. I am not in the “in circle” and I venture to say many exhibitors feel like their voice is not heard or are too afraid to look stupid or be called out for expressing a concern. This post is less about the “Circle of Fun” that X-hoopers represents and more about how constructive ideas from exhibitors are only valued if they are in agreement with the status quo.

Cherie Singer & the Singer Shelties
Reno/Sparks, NV
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Shirlene Clark on August 14, 2016, 05:14:01 PM
Thank you, Cheri, for writing your post.  I agree with your reasoning but would like to add one more comment about requiring X-Hoopers and/or Barrelers at a regular weekend trial.   Both of the trials I chair are held out doors with no lighting in March and in September.  I would be happy to offer both of these classes, but we just don't have enough daylight.  A few years ago, we added three classes on Friday afternoon to our March trial in order to be able to offer more choices over the weekend.  Last year (or the year before) we started offering Intro in some classes and it has become very popular.  As Cheri said, if we are required to add X-Hoopers and/or Barrelers, something would have to go, not to mention, we have a very heavy AKC presents here and they would not support these classes. 
Linda Anderson
Star City K 9 Training
Roanoke, VA

Sad that AKC mandates a NADAC club choices.  But sometimes it does.

Sharon

I agree...sad

Does it ever work the opposite.....does NADAC ever mandate an AKC club choice ?  Food for thought.....

I should add I am not saying food for thought for any other reason than I wonder why the agility community doesn't ponder the inequity of this....
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Cindy on August 14, 2016, 06:00:09 PM
I have had the good fortune to play agility at Bend, and Canby when NADAC was there.  In fact, I'm going to Bend this coming weekend.  Last weekend I was there and spent the first day of the trial watching amazing bonus runs from teams that I'm sure have some sort of mental telepathy going on.  I also watched some multiple NATCH handlers have great successes with their young dogs.  Saturday it was my turn to play - with my dog who has been known to spend more time eating the ring surface than running.  That wasn't the case on Saturday, she actually ran and we had a great time together.  While I was thrilled with her performance, there were people there who were even more excited than I was - and it was those multiple NATCH and bonus line handlers - in fact Sharon and Becky were the most vocal about it.  Do we have the skills they have - nope.  Will we ever - not with this dog.  Did we feel marginalized or lesser because I ran with her and our primary goal was fun - NOT A BIT!!  My runs, Q or not, were celebrated just as loudly as the successful bonus line runs - and that has been true every time I have run when Sharon and Becky are around.  To me, that is the heart of NADAC.  NADAC is about people having fun and success with their dogs, regardless of how that is defined for each individual team.  Skilled, Proficient, bonus, run with your dog, Q, no Q, or just not eating the course.  That feeling, from the very beginning, is why I have been NADAC only for many years.  While NADAC has grown and evolved and there are times I feel out of my league when I watch those bonus runs, I have never been made to feel that way by the people who are leading that innovation and change.

As for the "Circle of Fun" - I so remember the first time EGC was offered in Canby.  Arlene did an introductory seminar, and I went, hoping my Elite dog and my Novice dog would both hate it so I didn't have to add one more thing to my plate.  Apparently I didn't make that clear to them, because they LOVED it!!  Especially the "Circle of Fun" and especially my Elite dog, who was 13 at the time!!  She had seen gates before, and she had done hoops, but never in that configuration.  It didn't throw her off a bit - she took to it like she'd been doing it her whole life.  And that is what I have seen from so many dogs since.  They love the guidance and distance that the circle gives them and they speed up because of it.  In my dog's case, X-Hoopers and X-Gaters just served to renew her love of agility and that speed and excitement carried over to all the other classes.  I think she would have been thrilled to find that hoop circle in the middle of a Regular Agility run!  I just wish she was still here to try it.  Sharon is right, we do so many different things with our dogs that they just see it as one more.  It is the handlers that panic and cause any issues that do arise.  I hope that anyone who gets a chance to try it with their dog will do so, with an open mind and positive attitude - you may just find like I did that your dogs will thank you for it! 
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: LeeAnne McAdam on August 14, 2016, 06:03:22 PM
I guess there's nothing to be done about the daylight, but I would like to remind you, Linda, that in an area with a heavy AKC presence, we were also able to put together a pretty successful EGC trial once we took the time to teach people how to do the classes...so you know me, I don't buy that people won't support it.  I will buy that maybe there isn't daylight.

Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 14, 2016, 06:07:03 PM

I agree...sad

Does it ever work the opposite.....does NADAC ever mandate an AKC club choice ?  Food for thought.....

I should add I am not saying food for thought for any other reason than I wonder why the agility community doesn't ponder the inequity of this....

No, NADAC will never mandate any AKC choices......... other than them adding rubber contacts, breakaway tires, shorter closed tunnels, lower jump heights, lower A-frames....... But AKC will always be the king just by the pure strength of the size of the organization.  That is okay, no issue with that.  I wish that they had been the ones to put out their hearts and souls into the start of the sport and not let other venues develop it, gain its popularity and then take it over.  But once AKC steps in (like agility, nosework, dock diving, rally, etc) they will become the voice of the sport.  The big box stores will always mandate what the now smaller stores have to offer.   

But that was all guaranteed so no worries!   

I love suggestions and I am open to them.  There are always those who believe that they have to agree with me or else........ those are the people who don't know me and have no understanding of who I am.  Love this sport, I am happy with life, I respect every person who has taken the time to train their dog and both enjoy this sport, whether they do NADAC or not.

If NADAC makes one miserable, I hope one of the other venues fills the emotional needs of the team.  But give NADAC a try, you might like it!!!  You might like, even LOVE, hoop circles too!  Try not to have a negative opinion until you have tried it and found that it did nothing to fill an emotional joy!!

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 14, 2016, 06:22:18 PM
I have had the good fortune to play agility at Bend, and Canby when NADAC was there.  In fact, I'm going to Bend this coming weekend.  Last weekend I was there and spent the first day of the trial watching amazing bonus runs from teams that I'm sure have some sort of mental telepathy going on.  I also watched some multiple NATCH handlers have great successes with their young dogs.  Saturday it was my turn to play - with my dog who has been known to spend more time eating the ring surface than running.  That wasn't the case on Saturday, she actually ran and we had a great time together.  While I was thrilled with her performance, there were people there who were even more excited than I was - and it was those multiple NATCH and bonus line handlers - in fact Sharon and Becky were the most vocal about it.  Do we have the skills they have - nope.  Will we ever - not with this dog.  Did we feel marginalized or lesser because I ran with her and our primary goal was fun - NOT A BIT!!  My runs, Q or not, were celebrated just as loudly as the successful bonus line runs - and that has been true every time I have run when Sharon and Becky are around.  To me, that is the heart of NADAC.  NADAC is about people having fun and success with their dogs, regardless of how that is defined for each individual team.  Skilled, Proficient, bonus, run with your dog, Q, no Q, or just not eating the course.  That feeling, from the very beginning, is why I have been NADAC only for many years.  While NADAC has grown and evolved and there are times I feel out of my league when I watch those bonus runs, I have never been made to feel that way by the people who are leading that innovation and change.

As for the "Circle of Fun" - I so remember the first time EGC was offered in Canby.  Arlene did an introductory seminar, and I went, hoping my Elite dog and my Novice dog would both hate it so I didn't have to add one more thing to my plate.  Apparently I didn't make that clear to them, because they LOVED it!!  Especially the "Circle of Fun" and especially my Elite dog, who was 13 at the time!!  She had seen gates before, and she had done hoops, but never in that configuration.  It didn't throw her off a bit - she took to it like she'd been doing it her whole life.  And that is what I have seen from so many dogs since.  They love the guidance and distance that the circle gives them and they speed up because of it.  In my dog's case, X-Hoopers and X-Gaters just served to renew her love of agility and that speed and excitement carried over to all the other classes.  I think she would have been thrilled to find that hoop circle in the middle of a Regular Agility run!  I just wish she was still here to try it.  Sharon is right, we do so many different things with our dogs that they just see it as one more.  It is the handlers that panic and cause any issues that do arise.  I hope that anyone who gets a chance to try it with their dog will do so, with an open mind and positive attitude - you may just find like I did that your dogs will thank you for it!

Kinsey was AWESOME last weekend!  And only one more Novice Jumpers and she WILL have that Novice Superior Versatility! 

You would have loved this weekend also, Cindy!  We had some exhibitors here from Montana (they came early so they could do X-Hoopers and they are not entered in champs, they just love the class!) who mostly came with Intro dogs.  It was so much fun watching the baby dogs learn more with each run and enjoy their runs with their handlers.  Yes, there were successful bonus runs also and many failed ones!  But the cheering and honest joy is just as high for any dog and handler having fun doing agility!

Next weekend we have competitors from Montana, Calgary, California, Washington, Idaho and Oregon coming!  More fun times with so many different levels of dogs and handlers!  People giving honest praise for everyone!

I think it is the same feeling for all dogs.  I love the feel of the connection when one of my bonus dogs and I really connect and have a great run, but it feels every bit as good when someone else has a run that is special for that team.  I feel the same when one of the pups learns something new and that spark is there!  Just makes one feel good from head to toe. 

People and dogs feeling good together, that is what it is all about.

On a side note, X-Hoopers has the highest qualifying rate of any NADAC class!!  It is not unusual to have an 85-90% Q rate.  And most people and dogs leave the course beaming and feeling good!

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: KarissaKS on August 14, 2016, 09:06:23 PM
The point of the thread in the Champs forum is not whether or not a hoop circle should be part of NADAC. It's whether or not it's fair to have it as part of a Championship event when a large percentage of competitors have never seen one. It seems to me that the majority of people saying "it's not so bad, you should try it" are people who have competed a great deal in the class, or at least have had the opportunity to do so. I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to understand the point of view from those who have literally never performed this obstacle/sequence.

AKC mandates absolutely nothing with regard to NADAC. There is the occasional (exclusively) AKC competitor that comes to a NADAC trial to train contacts and start lines. If those are the people you are trying to pull into your trials to boost numbers, classes like X-Hoopers will not encourage their participation. They will enter Regular, Jumpers, Touch-n-Go, Weavers, and maybe Tunnelers because it's fun. The "weird" classes or classes that require special training outside of what is seen in "normal" agility do not appeal to the crossover crowd.

In my region there are a (very) small number of NADAC diehards -- all they compete in is NADAC, but they are getting discouraged by the many changes and the ever-dwindling number of trials around here. Then you have the people who do NADAC in addition to other venues -- we at least have other places to play now that there are 75% fewer NADAC trials in this area than there were a few years ago. There are those folks from other venues who occasionally come to a NADAC trial to train, but honestly I don't see them as much since the barrels were added (hoops were a big enough hurdle). And finally you have the people who will not go to a NADAC trial for anything. I am always interested to talk to people at AKC/USDAA trials and find out how many used to do NADAC on a large scale, going to Championships regularly and whatnot. These people are trainers. When they left NADAC they took their students with them.

NADAC cannot survive in a region without trainers who teach the skills necessary. It's fine to have the attitude of "It's our sandbox, if you don't like it you can go play somewhere else" --- But don't then sit and wonder why trials and clubs continue to fold up and go away. Sometimes I think it would behoove some of the diehards to attend some trials in other organizations. Why would you expect them to come to your trials if you won't go to theirs? If all you do is proclaim that yours is better -- if you don't SHOW them that the skills you've trained for NADAC are helpful elsewhere -- why on earth would they feel compelled to make the jump?
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 14, 2016, 09:35:40 PM

NADAC cannot survive in a region without trainers who teach the skills necessary. It's fine to have the attitude of "It's our sandbox, if you don't like it you can go play somewhere else" --- But don't then sit and wonder why trials and clubs continue to fold up and go away. Sometimes I think it would behoove some of the diehards to attend some trials in other organizations. Why would you expect them to come to your trials if you won't go to theirs? If all you do is proclaim that yours is better -- if you don't SHOW them that the skills you've trained for NADAC are helpful elsewhere -- why on earth would they feel compelled to make the jump?

Hi, Karissa.
  First, none of us say "it's our sandbox"........ statement.  It is heard a lot, but it is you that keeps saying that.   We don't want anyone to leave, but there will be those that do leave.  We get people that left AKC and some people will leave to do venues where there are more available trials.  There is a theme in your area that NADAC is dwindling and that there aren't any trainers teaching NADAC.  You are absolutely right that if there aren't any trainers to teach NADAC skills then that is the reason that the entries will continue to fall and more clubs will leave and do venues where the area trainers teach the necessary skills and set the appropriate classes  for that venue.

   We don't proclaim that "ours is better" except to ourselves.  Yep, we have FUN!!  We will rejoice that we have fun!  But it never written that we have fun in NADAC and that we wouldn't in other venues.  In many areas competitors don't multi-venue because there is plenty of NADAC available, not because they dislike other venues.  In "most" cases NADAC exhibitors do not bash other venues to promote NADAC, yet it is more common that other venue competitors will bash NADAC, even if they have never tried it.  I want people to have fun!  If that means another venue, that is okay, just have fun!  Now I am sure that some people read that and believe in their minds that I am saying "go away" but that just shows that you don't know me and you put words into what I am saying that is not what is meant.

   I truly just want people to have fun with their dogs!  Period.  No deeper meaning.  Go have fun with your dogs!  No more, no less.

   I am sorry that there aren't trainers to help in your area.  Maybe that is where the energy could go.  Trying to create some NADAC training so people could have more fun in NADAC.  NADAC training brings in NADAC entries and clubs get more entries and make more money from the trials so they can pay the expenses of hosting a trial.  No trainers, lower entries, less income, less clubs, fewer exhibitors.  I would love the wave a magic wand and have a NADAC trainer appear in your area, as you said you don't have any.  But I don't own that wand, because if I did everyone would be having a blast doing agility!

   Hug your dog, they will be gone long before you are ready!  Work on solutions to problems without complaining about problems and maybe there are answers that haven't been thought of yet!

   Just have fun with your dog in whatever form that is!  Agility, nosework, dock diving, obedience, tracking, barn hunts, freestyle, or taking long hikes in the woods or long walks on the beach!

   Life is too short.... smile and hug that dog again!

Sharon

   
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Cindy on August 14, 2016, 09:57:44 PM
The point of the thread in the Champs forum is not whether or not a hoop circle should be part of NADAC. It's whether or not it's fair to have it as part of a Championship event when a large percentage of competitors have never seen one. It seems to me that the majority of people saying "it's not so bad, you should try it" are people who have competed a great deal in the class, or at least have had the opportunity to do so. I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to understand the point of view from those who have literally never performed this obstacle/sequence.


Karissa, I don't think anyone is trying to belittle your concerns, but rather to try to reassure those who haven't seen it before.  All of those people who are saying, "It's not so bad, you should try it.", had a first time experience and that is what they are sharing.  For most of us it was far easier than it looked.  I hope you find that to be true as well.

Have fun at champs, and enjoy the special time with your dogs.  For every handler who has qualified for champs, there are many at home thinking, "Someday..."
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Cindy on August 14, 2016, 10:02:15 PM

People and dogs feeling good together, that is what it is all about.

Sharon

Amen!!  And that is why I love NADAC so much!!
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Wild Terriers on August 15, 2016, 02:51:28 AM
I think it's awesome that NADAC is open to input, but it seems to me that somewhere along the way people have misunderstood input to mean - 'if I have a concern or I don't like something and if I express  my concern or dissatisfaction that I will get my way'. I'm sorry but just because input is welcomed doesn't mean it will go 'your way'.....  As I frequently tell my teenage daughter - no, is an acceptable answer, perhaps not the one you want, but acceptable nevertheless and in the end, NADAC is a business and while input is welcome and that's awesome, I have yet to see anything say - 'give input and you can have it your way' .......  Even after 12 years I am appalled at the negativity and 'attack mode' that so many seem to feel is an acceptable justified way to speak to the head and founder of an international organization, who makes every attempt to have 'an open door policy' .....  Year after year, and Sharon retains that 'open door policy' - I doubt many people would.

And, Kyle - YOU ROCK - can't wait to see you!!!

Karen
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: knittingdog on August 15, 2016, 05:40:16 AM

I just wanted to say that making XHoopers and XBarrelers an option for VT runs is a fantastic idea!  It gives people the chance to see courses and maybe some incentive to run them and practice them!  What a great opportunity to expose people all over the country to these classes!  People could try them locally in a VT setting without being dependent on a club to provide the option and then practice after taping if they wanted to.  Or just practice without the intent of taping at all.  I think XHoopers and XBarrelers will catch on more once people have the chance to become more familiar with them.

I know we will be doing them here if given the opportunity.  One of my students has been clamoring for years to start doing EGC.

Robin

 
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Kyle on August 15, 2016, 06:41:35 AM
The point of the thread in the Champs forum is not whether or not a hoop circle should be part of NADAC. It's whether or not it's fair to have it as part of a Championship event when a large percentage of competitors have never seen one. It seems to me that the majority of people saying "it's not so bad, you should try it" are people who have competed a great deal in the class, or at least have had the opportunity to do so. I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to understand the point of view from those who have literally never performed this obstacle/sequence.

Karissa,

Oh, I think that point of view has been very clearly understood. But what you have failed to see is the majority of responses have been people *finding a positive way* to meet this new "challenge", not continually disparaging it. A trainer has said they will focus on it for the next 6 weeks with the *very large* group of students they always bring to Champs. Numerous people have sent in tons of suggestions to get started training this both from a small and large scale. There's been creative photos sent in on how to set something similar up at home or class. Folks who were surprised by this challenge are actively going about *finding a way* to make it work for them. This is how true NADAC Champions work! (OK, in *reality*, it's how ALL true Champions work!  ;D) They see a problem, they find a way to fix it, move on and win, rather than just sit on their butts and harp on the negatives.

You've made it very clear that you aren't coming to Championships this year. Lucky you! You've been given a 13 month "heads up" on one of the possible focus of one of the courses you might see in 2017, if you choose to qualify and enter. 13 months should be *plenty* of time for you to figure out how to train this thing. Actually, it will probably take you, as a handler, maaaaybe 13 minutes and your dog about 13 seconds. It's not exactly rocket science....since your dogs *do* know what hoops are.

So, Karissa, you better jump on the Circle of Fun Train along with the rest of us! It's coming to a town near YOU next year! We've all bought our tickets, climbed aboard and are having fun enjoying each other and our dogs in the Club Car....where are you???

-Kyle
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Kyk9s on August 15, 2016, 07:17:16 AM
I'm all for trying fun and new things but being a club east of the Mississippi and south of the Mason Dixon line it's like pulling teeth just to get folks to try NADAC Our club has been around going on 6 years. we now  have several accomplished handlers and even some hall of fame members but it has been an insane amount of work to get there. The first time folks around here saw hoops you would have thought the world was coming to an end lol. Having barrels introduced gradually was wonderful and the barrelers class is being received with great enthusiasm from participants. All  I ask is that clubs have some time to introduce it and I'm sure once folks see how fun and challenging it is then when it becomes a Natch requirement there will be a lot less fussing about it.

People fear the unknown and Are resistant to change. I'm sure once we have a time frame and guide lines it will all work out.
Thank you for your time and have a lovely day

Robin
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Dheavner on August 15, 2016, 07:48:20 AM
The point of the thread in the Champs forum is not whether or not a hoop circle should be part of NADAC. It's whether or not it's fair to have it as part of a Championship event when a large percentage of competitors have never seen one. It seems to me that the majority of people saying "it's not so bad, you should try it" are people who have competed a great deal in the class, or at least have had the opportunity to do so. I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to understand the point of view from those who have literally never performed this obstacle/sequence.






Agreed!!!
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on August 15, 2016, 01:59:20 PM
I would LOVE for Xhoopers and Xbarrelers to be offered as VT runs :)
I would do them :)
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 15, 2016, 02:13:31 PM
I would LOVE for Xhoopers and Xbarrelers to be offered as VT runs :)
I would do them :)

Barrelers would be too tough to judge the exact distance as no angle would show all three sides.  But X-Hoopers could be done.

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Marcy Matties on August 15, 2016, 02:38:49 PM
I would LOVE for Xhoopers and Xbarrelers to be offered as VT runs :)
I would do them :)

Barrelers would be too tough to judge the exact distance as no angle would show all three sides.  But X-Hoopers could be done.

Sharon

You would just need to video Barrelers from an overhead drone is all ...  lol
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: knittingdog on August 15, 2016, 03:36:54 PM

Like I said above - we would do them too!

Robin

Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 15, 2016, 03:56:53 PM

Like I said above - we would do them too!

Robin

X-Hoopers would be possible.  X-pens would be best for viewing options!

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on August 16, 2016, 10:04:15 AM
The point of the thread in the Champs forum is not whether or not a hoop circle should be part of NADAC. It's whether or not it's fair to have it as part of a Championship event when a large percentage of competitors have never seen one. It seems to me that the majority of people saying "it's not so bad, you should try it" are people who have competed a great deal in the class, or at least have had the opportunity to do so. I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to understand the point of view from those who have literally never performed this obstacle/sequence.

Karissa,

Oh, I think that point of view has been very clearly understood. But what you have failed to see is the majority of responses have been people *finding a positive way* to meet this new "challenge", not continually disparaging it. A trainer has said they will focus on it for the next 6 weeks with the *very large* group of students they always bring to Champs. Numerous people have sent in tons of suggestions to get started training this both from a small and large scale. There's been creative photos sent in on how to set something similar up at home or class. Folks who were surprised by this challenge are actively going about *finding a way* to make it work for them. This is how true NADAC Champions work! (OK, in *reality*, it's how ALL true Champions work!  ;D) They see a problem, they find a way to fix it, move on and win, rather than just sit on their butts and harp on the negatives.

You've made it very clear that you aren't coming to Championships this year. Lucky you! You've been given a 13 month "heads up" on one of the possible focus of one of the courses you might see in 2017, if you choose to qualify and enter. 13 months should be *plenty* of time for you to figure out how to train this thing. Actually, it will probably take you, as a handler, maaaaybe 13 minutes and your dog about 13 seconds. It's not exactly rocket science....since your dogs *do* know what hoops are.

So, Karissa, you better jump on the Circle of Fun Train along with the rest of us! It's coming to a town near YOU next year! We've all bought our tickets, climbed aboard and are having fun enjoying each other and our dogs in the Club Car....where are you???

-Kyle

I totally understand what Karissa is saying.  There is ONE club in the Chicagoland area that teaches NADAC and hosts NADAC trials.  That club, for me to train is over 2 hours away on a week night.  I just can't make it there.   All the rest of the clubs teach AKC/USDAA/CPE and now UKI and ASCA are coming in.  So, Kyle, you can say that "a trainer just offered to set it up, train it...."  But sometimes it just isn't feasible for people.  Not everything is as simple as some people make it sound.  I for one, work a full-time job, a part time job, have a house to clean and care for and have a 90 year old mother that I help take care of.  Time is limited.  Add to that, that I don't have a big yard to play in.  I train 1X per week if that.  I simply don't have the time to rent a facility and if I did, then they would not have the equipment necessary.  The fact is, that adding it to Champs IS a large disadvantage to those of us who never see it here. 

The second part she was saying also holds true.  The fact is, Unfortunately in this area, there is very little cross-over.  People either do NADAC or they don't.  The trainers that are out there (other than the 1 club), simply don't run NADAC and don't/won't train for NADAC.  I have hear them say things like "I won't train that crazy distance needed", or "I won't do a venue that has such different obstacles" or "I need my dog to be able to collect and not work away from me and he simply can't do both".  Is it true?  NOPE.  But can I change their mind?  NOPE.  I have gone to USDAA and AKC trials to watch my friends.  I hear the conversations that take place about NADAC whether they know that I run NADAC or not.  Even if I try to defend NADAC, the issue is things like the barrels or hoops.  Now, I have convinced some people that a hoop is simply like a jump without the bar.  They train their puppies on jump standards, what is the difference?  I have convinced some people that a barrel is simply teaching your dog to go around something (like a jump standard).  However, the vast majority do not going to listen.  For whatever reason, NADAC is like a black hole here.    Like Karissa said, there are some that will come and use it for training, there are some, that if there is no other trial around, will come and play for a day, but the vast majority just stay away.  The main complaint that I hear is the "constant change on a whim".  To me that is both good and bad.  Some of the changes are for the better, some are not (in my opinion), but for the most part, we all get heard.  BUT, for those that are thinking about crossing over, adding something like a hoop cirlce would totally cut them out.  Trainers are NOT going to pick it up and teach it.  Not only do they not have the skills necessary to teach it, but they also are not likelly to be supported by their students because it isn't required in any other venue.  And if their students balk at it, so will the trainers because they need to keep their students.  The students pay them to teach them the skills necessary to compete and that particular skill just isn't necessary (in their minds anyway) to compete in AKC, USDAA, CPE, UKI or ASCA.  The fact is, NADAC IS different.  I enjoy NADAC but I was lucky enough that when I started in agility, that club trained NADAC.  That doesn't happen with most newbies anymore.  The only place I could take my "newbie" dog is to an AKC/USDAA facility.  I can guarantee that all of those dogs in her class will end up NOT knowing anything about NADAC except what I have told them. 

And quite honestly Kyle, this comment,  "So, Karissa, you better jump on the Circle of Fun Train along with the rest of us! It's coming to a town near YOU next year! We've all bought our tickets, climbed aboard and are having fun enjoying each other and our dogs in the Club Car....where are you???", is one of the MAIN reasons people don't do NADAC.  I am sure you didn't mean it to sound snarky, but to someone who only does a small amount of NADAC and has other options available, it could definitely come across that way.  Karissa is one of the few people who supports NADAC in her area.  Without her talking it up, do you really think that we will gain competitors? 
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 16, 2016, 10:40:07 AM
  For whatever reason, NADAC is like a black hole here.   

I totally agree with that.  I wish I could help to promote NADAC in the upper Midwest, but I usually am just hit with massive negativity and no willingness to listen with an open mind.  Years ago we had championships in the Midwest for four years straight.  NADAC was big in the area and yet it was VERY competitive.  At the end of the fourth year, I did announce that we would no longer have a championship event, as the attitudes were not what NADAC was famous for.  I would do anything I could (I even looked at property in the area) to help with the attitudes that I meet in the Midwest of "I quit".  I admire those that continue to "promote" NADAC (not defend) as they have a tough battle in that area.  And yet we have some of the most fun loving, great people that are also from the Midwest!  Those that are not negative are massively positive!  It is an interesting area and I would love to do anything I could to show that NADAC can be fun and positive and successful while really having a great time with your dog.  I wish I could clone those happy positive people and spread the word that NADAC is not the horrid beast that seems to be spread around.

I admire you ability to continue to trial in NADAC, have fun and stay positive!  If we could get NADAC back like it used to be without the level of competitiveness that was there, it would be great for everyone to have that choice.

And yes, I wish I had that magic wand that would send some positive NADAC trainers to the area and show that NADAC can really be good for both dog and handler.  Just allow another choice and not condemn people for taking choices.

Everyone should be able to have choices, but competing in a venue for which there isn't any training to promote the skills always ends up hurting the venue.  Competing in NADAC and not earning any Q's does nothing for the dog, the handler, the club or the venue.  Until there are trainers that are willing to train the needed skills it is somewhat a losing battle.  Until there is that cloning machine or the magic wand!

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: TheQuestKnight on August 16, 2016, 11:06:15 AM
WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kinda seems to me that a number of folks are trying to be snarky and keep it under Sharon's "radar" and within the bounds of all that she'll allow before she puts her foot down!
First of all, you really do NOT need hoops to train for Hoopers or X-Hoopers!  A couple of household objects, say coffee cups placed X inches apart will do.  You are supposed to be teaching your dog to RUN THE PATH!!!  If the dog is on path, s/he will perform the hoop!  Try it!  It works!  For giggles and grins, my little Dachsie mix learned how to run a path in our tiny living room while I was drinking wine and watching the Indians whip the Tigers on TV! ...and she knew NOTHING about agility!!! 
Secondly, A LOT of folks have gotten spoiled rotten by some other venues whose Nationals, Regionals, Whatever courses look pretty similar to trial courses.  It's a pity that you weren't around in agility's infancy.......................for special events like those, there were almost ALWAYS challenges that exhibitors hadn't seen before!  They were NEVER dangerous; but they did push beyond what folks normally trained for; but the philosophy was "If you want to be a NATIONAL champion, PROVE your WORTHINESS!" ...............and many did just that!
I really do think that some ambitious person on the forum should begin to categorize all of the excuses, whines (and the cheese to go with them) and petty critiques of NADAC and put them into a book.  That way, it would save some folks A LOT of trouble..........................they could simply name the class; and then give the number or numbers of their whines and gripes!
FOR ALL THAT IS GOOD AND DECENT, have some of you forgotten that Sharon is still in the early stages of recovery from traumatic cancer surgery........................that Chris is recovering from surgery (hernia?) as well........................and that Sharon, Becky, Chris & Amanda have families and lives OUTSIDE of NADAC???
BTW, if you want to see a REAL NADAC black hole, come to Ohio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......................but we ALWAYS managed to find a way and a place to train.....................and to test our skills at trials.  Trials were some distance away, so we turned them into mini-vacations!!!
When I go to a trial, I go to have FUN with my dog................THAT'S IT!  If others want to whine, complain, pout or do whatever else negative they can think of, PLEASE STAY AT HOME!!!  I don't appreciate seeing you......................and your dog probably is NOT having fun being around you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.....................and if attendance drops off; and NADAC trials cease to be, so be it!
NADAC has ALWAYS "marched to the beat of a different drummer"...................and I, for one, am sooooooooooooooooo very grateful that it does!  What I have learned about my dogs, about myself and about agility through my association with NADAC can never be taken from me.......................and I'm soooooooooooo NOT tallking about ribbons, awards titles or any of that trivial stuff!
Just my NOT so humble opinion; but if the driving force behind your doing agility are the ribbons, titles, awards and other trinkets, please do all of us...................and the sport, a HUGE favor and QUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
More or less respectfully...................I guess it depends on how self-conscious and insecure you are.............
Al
P.S. Sharon & Chris & Becky & Amanda: If I get a warning regarding the tone of my post, I won't be surprised! If I don't get one, I may be a bit disappointed! <LOL>  The NADAC family has been waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too good to us and ours for me to let these truly unfounded and unwarranted critiques to to without a rebuttal.

The point of the thread in the Champs forum is not whether or not a hoop circle should be part of NADAC. It's whether or not it's fair to have it as part of a Championship event when a large percentage of competitors have never seen one. It seems to me that the majority of people saying "it's not so bad, you should try it" are people who have competed a great deal in the class, or at least have had the opportunity to do so. I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to understand the point of view from those who have literally never performed this obstacle/sequence.

Karissa,

Oh, I think that point of view has been very clearly understood. But what you have failed to see is the majority of responses have been people *finding a positive way* to meet this new "challenge", not continually disparaging it. A trainer has said they will focus on it for the next 6 weeks with the *very large* group of students they always bring to Champs. Numerous people have sent in tons of suggestions to get started training this both from a small and large scale. There's been creative photos sent in on how to set something similar up at home or class. Folks who were surprised by this challenge are actively going about *finding a way* to make it work for them. This is how true NADAC Champions work! (OK, in *reality*, it's how ALL true Champions work!  ;D) They see a problem, they find a way to fix it, move on and win, rather than just sit on their butts and harp on the negatives.

You've made it very clear that you aren't coming to Championships this year. Lucky you! You've been given a 13 month "heads up" on one of the possible focus of one of the courses you might see in 2017, if you choose to qualify and enter. 13 months should be *plenty* of time for you to figure out how to train this thing. Actually, it will probably take you, as a handler, maaaaybe 13 minutes and your dog about 13 seconds. It's not exactly rocket science....since your dogs *do* know what hoops are.

So, Karissa, you better jump on the Circle of Fun Train along with the rest of us! It's coming to a town near YOU next year! We've all bought our tickets, climbed aboard and are having fun enjoying each other and our dogs in the Club Car....where are you???

-Kyle

I totally understand what Karissa is saying.  There is ONE club in the Chicagoland area that teaches NADAC and hosts NADAC trials.  That club, for me to train is over 2 hours away on a week night.  I just can't make it there.   All the rest of the clubs teach AKC/USDAA/CPE and now UKI and ASCA are coming in.  So, Kyle, you can say that "a trainer just offered to set it up, train it...."  But sometimes it just isn't feasible for people.  Not everything is as simple as some people make it sound.  I for one, work a full-time job, a part time job, have a house to clean and care for and have a 90 year old mother that I help take care of.  Time is limited.  Add to that, that I don't have a big yard to play in.  I train 1X per week if that.  I simply don't have the time to rent a facility and if I did, then they would not have the equipment necessary.  The fact is, that adding it to Champs IS a large disadvantage to those of us who never see it here. 

The second part she was saying also holds true.  The fact is, Unfortunately in this area, there is very little cross-over.  People either do NADAC or they don't.  The trainers that are out there (other than the 1 club), simply don't run NADAC and don't/won't train for NADAC.  I have hear them say things like "I won't train that crazy distance needed", or "I won't do a venue that has such different obstacles" or "I need my dog to be able to collect and not work away from me and he simply can't do both".  Is it true?  NOPE.  But can I change their mind?  NOPE.  I have gone to USDAA and AKC trials to watch my friends.  I hear the conversations that take place about NADAC whether they know that I run NADAC or not.  Even if I try to defend NADAC, the issue is things like the barrels or hoops.  Now, I have convinced some people that a hoop is simply like a jump without the bar.  They train their puppies on jump standards, what is the difference?  I have convinced some people that a barrel is simply teaching your dog to go around something (like a jump standard).  However, the vast majority do not going to listen.  For whatever reason, NADAC is like a black hole here.    Like Karissa said, there are some that will come and use it for training, there are some, that if there is no other trial around, will come and play for a day, but the vast majority just stay away.  The main complaint that I hear is the "constant change on a whim".  To me that is both good and bad.  Some of the changes are for the better, some are not (in my opinion), but for the most part, we all get heard.  BUT, for those that are thinking about crossing over, adding something like a hoop cirlce would totally cut them out.  Trainers are NOT going to pick it up and teach it.  Not only do they not have the skills necessary to teach it, but they also are not likelly to be supported by their students because it isn't required in any other venue.  And if their students balk at it, so will the trainers because they need to keep their students.  The students pay them to teach them the skills necessary to compete and that particular skill just isn't necessary (in their minds anyway) to compete in AKC, USDAA, CPE, UKI or ASCA.  The fact is, NADAC IS different.  I enjoy NADAC but I was lucky enough that when I started in agility, that club trained NADAC.  That doesn't happen with most newbies anymore.  The only place I could take my "newbie" dog is to an AKC/USDAA facility.  I can guarantee that all of those dogs in her class will end up NOT knowing anything about NADAC except what I have told them. 

And quite honestly Kyle, this comment,  "So, Karissa, you better jump on the Circle of Fun Train along with the rest of us! It's coming to a town near YOU next year! We've all bought our tickets, climbed aboard and are having fun enjoying each other and our dogs in the Club Car....where are you???", is one of the MAIN reasons people don't do NADAC.  I am sure you didn't mean it to sound snarky, but to someone who only does a small amount of NADAC and has other options available, it could definitely come across that way.  Karissa is one of the few people who supports NADAC in her area.  Without her talking it up, do you really think that we will gain competitors?
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: dogrsqr on August 16, 2016, 11:06:53 AM
Catching all of this a little late.  None of us in 100% right or wrong.  Nobody knows what it's like to walk in someone else's shoes. 

We are having a hard time keeping NADAC going in the Midwest.  Recently we've had some new exhibitors, but we've also lost a few old ones.

I attended extreme games trials when they were being held in our area.  I really liked Gaters and X-Chances.  They went away.  I've grown to like X-Hoopers.  Our club does not offer it because of equipment logistics.  Our club only offers trials we do not offer training; we all have day jobs and we do not have a building.  We rent locations for trials and have all of our equipment in two trailers.  We really don't have capacity in the trailers to add gates or expens, neither space nor weight.  Currently even the hoops we use are at our house (they are actually our hoops).  Our club offers trials of another venue so having two sets of contact equipment is already very heavy.

When I attended my first extreme games trial my dog had not seen a gate a barrel or a Hoop circle.  The only one that has caused me any problems and continues to do so is the barrel.  I have tried to train them the best I can with limited time and resources.  I bought my own barrels, I work on them at home, but I don't have regular access to someplace that I can work on barrels integrated into a course with NADAC spacing.  My dog often does NOT see barrels when they are in a course whether that's due to speed or other equipment that she focuses on I don't know. I have tried to make them high value by using her favorite toy, but it doesn't seem to have worked.  Barrels have caused me great frustration; enough that I feel like I'm shutting my dog down and it's making me really unhappy. 

Of course no one around these forums actually talks about training anymore or trying to help people out.  I've asked questions before for advice on barrels and get no response.  So if any of you have some advice on trying to get my dog to do barrels on a course now is your chance .... speak up, help a home girl out.  Maybe if we talked a bit about training and actually helped out the people who don't have NADAC training available we could actually get some new interest.

Gina Pizzo who has been here for years
and Abbey who'd rather do anything but a barrel
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Kyle on August 16, 2016, 12:04:53 PM
Audri,

I truly do understand both Karissa's and your point of view. I totally Totally TOTALLY get the fact that there are no trainers for folks in your area to learn from. I totally get the problems of an incredibly busy life and lack of time due to real life problems. 

I apologize because it's quite clear to me now that I have not clarified that I am *only* talking about the inclusion of a Hoop Circle at Championships, I'm not talking about X-Hoopers being required for a NATCH nor was I talking about a lack of NADAC trials. So, again, I will apologize for not being terribly clear.

Honestly, in my heart of hearts, I do believe this one exercise - a Hoop Circle - won't be too difficult to train for anyone who has done any training with a hoop or two, or has entered Novice Hoopers, or has done Open Chances that includes a hoop in the test. That's my honest feeling. I also feel that if someone has tried AKC Fast, they shouldn't have too much of a problem.  :)

The input that has been generously given by many folks on this topic has been amazing. They've kindly offered so many different ways for folks to set up something to work on in the next 6 weeks - to get ready for Championships. From very small set ups (check out LeeAnn's posts) to larger ones. Sharon even did something she's *never* done before - sent out a sample course map. The hoop circle itself isn't very large, especially if you only set up one half at a time (as Sharon suggested by working pinwheels). And, as you have said, the hoops could easily be replaced by jumps with no bars. OR, you could forget needing a hoop or jump and just use some cheap garden fencing (chicken wire?) with cheap garden stakes and leave holes for the hoops. (I understand the problems with ex-pens.) I'll give you a little hint about training this that has helped some people not be so worried about the Hoop Circle - it's about showing your dog *the hole* and then *allowing them to find it*. Since the "holes" never change place the dogs figure it out pretty darn fast.

What I don't totally get is the really *hard* push back on this. We've all been given 6 weeks to figure this out. We've all been given some amazing help on how to do that in many different ways. There's been emotional support given for those who have to figure this out. Because, yes, I, as one, DO understand your pain on having to do something "new" at Championships. My dog (and many others) had *never seen a hoop* before she had to do a *whole course* of them at a Championships. My dog (and many others) had *never done* a barrel before she had to do them at a Championships. Did I grumble about that?? Yes I did, under my breath. But I also got the whole "challenge" thing that goes hand in hand with Championships. So I get part of your problem, but at least your dog knows what a hoop is already (one step ahead of the game there!), and that's the point of this exercise. To do some hoops. We've all been given the heads up it's going to happen and we've been given the time to work on it - yay!

Here's another way to think about things: I have a dog in Silver Stakes and a dog in Pre-Elite. My Silver Stakes dog and I are highly likely to walk away from Champs with zilch, zero, nada except for the pure JOY of working/playing together. Is that enough? You bet your bottom dollar it is. (BTW, we've never done a Hoop Circle at a distance...don't be thinkin' it's gonna be easy, it won't be.) My Pre-Elite dog has one trial under her belt in Open. She's really just a Novice kid. Do I have any hopes of doing anything stellar in *any* run we have. No way Jose! We're competing against dogs who have been running in Elite - with Elite TITLES. Are we gonna go out there and have the time of our lives on all the runs? You betcha, baby!

Don't be so down in the dumps about one single run - it's only one. You could kick ass in all the rest! Yay! You and your dogs are going to have a blast no matter what, am I right?

-Kyle

 
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 16, 2016, 12:21:58 PM
X-Hoopers will never be a part of a NATCH.  We will add it to VT so those who want to enjoy the thrill of the class can get more opportunities that way since some clubs won't ever offer it.  But it won't be any part of a regular NATCH.

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Cindy on August 16, 2016, 12:32:33 PM
Here's another way to think about things: I have a dog in Silver Stakes and a dog in Pre-Elite. My Silver Stakes dog and I are highly likely to walk away from Champs with zilch, zero, nada except for the pure JOY of working/playing together. Is that enough? You bet your bottom dollar it is. (BTW, we've never done a Hoop Circle at a distance...don't be thinkin' it's gonna be easy, it won't be.) My Pre-Elite dog has one trial under her belt in Open. She's really just a Novice kid. Do I have any hopes of doing anything stellar in *any* run we have. No way Jose! We're competing against dogs who have been running in Elite - with Elite TITLES. Are we gonna go out there and have the time of our lives on all the runs? You betcha, baby!

-Kyle

Kyle, I LOVE your attitude and approach!!  I'm guessing you will have stellar moments in each and every run, and most likely some stellar runs as well!  Either way, you've already won in my book, because you are going for the fun times with your dogs, playing a game you love!  Enjoy!!

Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on August 16, 2016, 12:40:57 PM
I am up for any suggestions on how to keep NADAC going and build upon it..especially in the midwest !!
When I first started trailing in IL  in 2002, NADAC trials only had 4 runs a day and filled 2 ring trials with waitlists. 

I hold seminars and trials in and near Springfield IL at the fairgrounds and at my sister's place!    Chrissy teaches classes and pushes NADAC skills.  She attended non-nadac local trials to support her students and to run her dogs.. it is good for others to watch such a good handler with distance and great dogs ! (I am  not biased at all : )

I offer Xhoopers and Xbarrelers at all my trials.   Heck ITZ is always one of the first clubs to try something out...Sharon announces it and we sure give it a try !!

But even so-- I am LUCKY if I break even with these trials.   Even my trials in MD/NJ/PA are seeing a decline in entries.    Some people have moved  to other venues taking their students/ friends with them.   It is happening everywhere.

Gina---   I understand your pain.   I dont have a hard time with barrels in regular trial i am fine...but damn it if I dont suck at barrelers !   I trained and trailed in barrelers all year and I still have a very low Q rate....













 


Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 16, 2016, 12:45:06 PM
I am up for any suggestions on how to keep NADAC going and build upon it..especially in the midwest !!
When I first started trailing in IL  in 2002, NADAC trials only had 4 runs a day and filled 2 ring trials with waitlists. 

I hold seminars and trials in and near Springfield IL at the fairgrounds and at my sister's place!    Chrissy teaches classes and pushes NADAC skills.  She attended non-nadac local trials to support her students and to run her dogs.. it is good for others to watch such a good handler with distance and great dogs ! (I am  not biased at all : )

I offer Xhoopers and Xbarrelers at all my trials.   Heck ITZ is always one of the first clubs to try something out...Sharon announces it and we sure give it a try !!

But even so-- I am LUCKY if I break even with these trials.   Even my trials in MD/NJ/PA are seeing a decline in entries.    Some people have moved  to other venues taking their students/ friends with them.   It is happening everywhere.

Gina---   I understand your pain.   I dont have a hard time with barrels in regular trial i am fine...but damn it if I dont suck at barrelers !   I trained and trailed in barrelers all year and I still have a very low Q rate....
 

So everyone keeps saying that there are no NADAC trainers and evidently there are!  Keep up the good work!

I would expect the trials in NJ to drop since there are so many more trials in the MD/NJ area than there were 4 years ago.  The "entry" numbers haven't dropped as far as the number of runs in the area, those runs are now distributed to a lot more clubs and more trials.  Lot of choices for people and many don't want to trial every weekend, so they pick and choose a lot more, now that they can.

Still need that magic wand!!

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on August 16, 2016, 06:53:30 PM
A few notes... I'd come to Lisa's ITZ trials a lot more but it's a 9 hour drive and with that far of a drive, I want to make the most of coming, so I usually enter most runs with 2 dogs.  That requires 4 nights in hotels and a shift trade at work just to come. That brings my weekend to around $800.  I would love to come more, but distance and money limits that.  Although I DO support all you do, Lisa!!  :)

I have no NADAC trainers in my area of Wichita, KS.  Starting in 2008, I had to become my own trainer as all my people out here ever taught was AKC.  I took it upon myself to train my 3 dogs all of their distance work.  We now have 29 NATCHs, with our 30th just 1 Q away.  It can be done being your own trainer, but I'm lucky I can go to a lady's yard that has space for me and equipment, although AKC contact equipment.  It's not been easy, but truthfully, being my own trainer has helped me understand what my dogs need and we developed our own communication system.  It would be fun to have a NADAC club out here, but I was determined to do NADAC and found a way to succeed with very limited resources.  It sure would be nice to have more NADAC interested clubs in my area so I don't have to travel 6-10 hours to 2/3 of my trials, though!  :)
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: ricbonner on August 16, 2016, 06:57:21 PM
A couple of my thoughts:

"6 weeks is enough time to prepare"  I disagree.  Many dogs, including one of mine, need some time before they can offer new performances in the trial ring.  I have heard many trainers say that there is a delay between teaching a skill and seeing the skill present itself in the trial ring.  In my experience, I see it in about 8 weeks.  I have heard other trainers say 12 weeks, some 4 weeks.  So I would need to be completed teaching the skill prior to 8 weeks out, in order to have a reliable expectation of my dog performing it.  Trying to teach a new skill now for Champs 2016 is a non starter for us.

As far as seeing challenges in the Champs ring.  That is a valid position.  But seeing a new challenge is not the only goal exhibitors have when coming to Champs.  Some teams go to demonstrate/celebrate just how awesome their dog is.  People dream of getting on that big stage and having a smooth beautiful run with their dog and showing how sweet it can be.  Many teams just want a clean run at Champs.  The sense of validation of a clean run at that level is a great thing and can be very inspiring and encouraging.  Now imagine these teams are faced with a challenge they've never seen, on a sequence they are completely unfamiliar with, on a course obstacle they don't even clearly understand the rules for.  Now, instead of a joyful run and demonstration of their dogs skills, they have a disastrous faulted run, they feel embarrassed, they feel like they don't deserve to be at Champs.  They are completely disheartened.  They have been practicing, training, competing for a year, usually several years.  They've made a huge investment of time, energy, and treasure to get there.  They have been told Champs is just regular courses.  They feel confident they have the skills needed.  And then they have that horrible experience.  Think seriously, is that good for the sport? for NADAC?  For people who have worked so hard and come so far, and committed so much, to have the target moved at the last minute, such that their dream of a smooth run at Champs with their dog is put at risk.  OK, it is just one run out of 7.  But in my first time at Champs, we only had 1 clean run.  It wasn't all that smooth, but that 1 clean run made all the difference for us.  If that run had had barrels or a hoop ring, I doubt we would have had that success in that run, and I'm not really sure I would have come back.

I personally am not against more advanced challenges at Champs.  I am not concerned by a hoop ring for my dogs.  And I am in an area that does not normally have extreme hoopers offered at trials.  But I recognize the concerns of other teams that are taken aback by this announcement.  I take hope in the observation that NADAC has announced this now, instead of like in the past when barrels were a complete surprise delivered at the walkthrough.  And not just a barrel, a figure eight of barrels.   Imagine, your dog has never seen a barrel and now you have to a do an outside figure eight around 2 barrels and not take that tasty tunnel in the corner.  Can you say instant 60 faults and no hope for the finals?  But I really wish NADAC would make announcements like this before they start accepting entries.  Before people have decided to come, before people have taken time off, booked hotels, etc.. This is my opinion, but I think the skills needed and challenges to be faced should not surprise or shock anyone.  With barrels a while back and the hoop ring now, some people are surprised.  This is not their fault for being surprised.  Of course people are reacting to this.  I say it is the timing of the information being delivered that causes this shock.

If the goal is to encourage more extreme hoopers across the country, then I think announcing this in January or February would effectively drive that, without the reactions that a late announcement or no announcement would generate.  If this was a known challenge or potential challenge at Champs, exhibitors planning for Champs would be asking for x-hoopers from their hosting clubs throughout the year.  If this was announced 6 months before champs, nobody would bark about it.  But announce it 6 weeks out, and there is going to be some barking.  Nobody should be surprised that teams are barking about this now.

My last point is this.  Not every post requires a counter post.  Not every expression of frustration, or concern, or shock or perspective needs to be responded with an opposing viewpoint or tips on how to "deal with it".  Training tips are great (if requested) but sometimes the best response is to just acknowledge the offering.  It is absolutely possible to say "thank you for your perspective and input" without immediately challenging that perspective or input.

My apologies for length.

--Ric Bonner
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on August 16, 2016, 07:08:17 PM
Excellent points, Ric!  Well said.  I totally agree with your post!  :)
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 16, 2016, 07:30:41 PM
A couple of my thoughts:

"6 weeks is enough time to prepare"  I disagree.  Many dogs, including one of mine, need some time before they can offer new performances in the trial ring.  I have heard many trainers say that there is a delay between teaching a skill and seeing the skill present itself in the trial ring.  In my experience, I see it in about 8 weeks.  I have heard other trainers say 12 weeks, some 4 weeks.  So I would need to be completed teaching the skill prior to 8 weeks out, in order to have a reliable expectation of my dog performing it.  Trying to teach a new skill now for Champs 2016 is a non starter for us.

As far as seeing challenges in the Champs ring.  That is a valid position.  But seeing a new challenge is not the only goal exhibitors have when coming to Champs.  Some teams go to demonstrate/celebrate just how awesome their dog is.  People dream of getting on that big stage and having a smooth beautiful run with their dog and showing how sweet it can be.  Many teams just want a clean run at Champs.  The sense of validation of a clean run at that level is a great thing and can be very inspiring and encouraging.  Now imagine these teams are faced with a challenge they've never seen, on a sequence they are completely unfamiliar with, on a course obstacle they don't even clearly understand the rules for.  Now, instead of a joyful run and demonstration of their dogs skills, they have a disastrous faulted run, they feel embarrassed, they feel like they don't deserve to be at Champs.  They are completely disheartened.  They have been practicing, training, competing for a year, usually several years.  They've made a huge investment of time, energy, and treasure to get there.  They have been told Champs is just regular courses.  They feel confident they have the skills needed.  And then they have that horrible experience.  Think seriously, is that good for the sport? for NADAC?  For people who have worked so hard and come so far, and committed so much, to have the target moved at the last minute, such that their dream of a smooth run at Champs with their dog is put at risk.  OK, it is just one run out of 7.  But in my first time at Champs, we only had 1 clean run.  It wasn't all that smooth, but that 1 clean run made all the difference for us.  If that run had had barrels or a hoop ring, I doubt we would have had that success in that run, and I'm not really sure I would have come back.

I personally am not against more advanced challenges at Champs.  I am not concerned by a hoop ring for my dogs.  And I am in an area that does not normally have extreme hoopers offered at trials.  But I recognize the concerns of other teams that are taken aback by this announcement.  I take hope in the observation that NADAC has announced this now, instead of like in the past when barrels were a complete surprise delivered at the walkthrough.  And not just a barrel, a figure eight of barrels.   Imagine, your dog has never seen a barrel and now you have to a do an outside figure eight around 2 barrels and not take that tasty tunnel in the corner.  Can you say instant 60 faults and no hope for the finals?  But I really wish NADAC would make announcements like this before they start accepting entries.  Before people have decided to come, before people have taken time off, booked hotels, etc.. This is my opinion, but I think the skills needed and challenges to be faced should not surprise or shock anyone.  With barrels a while back and the hoop ring now, some people are surprised.  This is not their fault for being surprised.  Of course people are reacting to this.  I say it is the timing of the information being delivered that causes this shock.

If the goal is to encourage more extreme hoopers across the country, then I think announcing this in January or February would effectively drive that, without the reactions that a late announcement or no announcement would generate.  If this was a known challenge or potential challenge at Champs, exhibitors planning for Champs would be asking for x-hoopers from their hosting clubs throughout the year.  If this was announced 6 months before champs, nobody would bark about it.  But announce it 6 weeks out, and there is going to be some barking.  Nobody should be surprised that teams are barking about this now.

My last point is this.  Not every post requires a counter post.  Not every expression of frustration, or concern, or shock or perspective needs to be responded with an opposing viewpoint or tips on how to "deal with it".  Training tips are great (if requested) but sometimes the best response is to just acknowledge the offering.  It is absolutely possible to say "thank you for your perspective and input" without immediately challenging that perspective or input.

My apologies for length.

--Ric Bonner

Good input!  My only remark is that it should be posted under the champs thread. 

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: KarissaKS on August 17, 2016, 09:54:26 AM
With regard to X-Hoopers and/or the hoop circle --- It is clear that many people view this obstacle as extremely beneficial and directly aligned with all that is NADAC. If that is the case, why not begin to incorporate it into some Regular courses, similar to the example that was shared in the Champs thread? Elite could have the full circle with all gates in place, Novice could have the hoop configuration with no gates, Open might have some of the gates introducing some sort of handler restriction but not the full intimidating circle.

The idea of introducing yet another (required?) class is completing daunting, both financially and in the time it takes to set/complete it at a trial. There will be people that grumble and complain (as they did with hoops, gates, and barrels) but most will accept it and give it a go -- at a NORMAL trial, not Champs. I'm not saying put it in every course -- We don't even see a barrel on every Regular course. Just make it a thing that might be part of a Regular course at a normal trial. That will give all competitors equal opportunity to experience this exercise without relying on clubs to offer an additional class and causing competitors to incur an additional expense. Clubs should be given the option of gates vs x-pens, though, as I imagine there are several clubs who went through the bother of building gates for this and won't be able to immediately afford to purchase x-pens.

Note that if this is the route chosen, you would also need to accept that such a change may drive away yet more people in areas like mine. But if people feel so strongly about its importance, put it out there. For everyone.
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 17, 2016, 09:58:13 AM
With regard to X-Hoopers and/or the hoop circle --- It is clear that many people view this obstacle as extremely beneficial and directly aligned with all that is NADAC. If that is the case, why not begin to incorporate it into some Regular courses, similar to the example that was shared in the Champs thread? Elite could have the full circle with all gates in place, Novice could have the hoop configuration with no gates, Open might have some of the gates introducing some sort of handler restriction but not the full intimidating circle.

The idea of introducing yet another (required?) class is completing daunting, both financially and in the time it takes to set/complete it at a trial. There will be people that grumble and complain (as they did with hoops, gates, and barrels) but most will accept it and give it a go -- at a NORMAL trial, not Champs. I'm not saying put it in every course -- We don't even see a barrel on every Regular course. Just make it a thing that might be part of a Regular course at a normal trial. That will give all competitors equal opportunity to experience this exercise without relying on clubs to offer an additional class and causing competitors to incur an additional expense. Clubs should be given the option of gates vs x-pens, though, as I imagine there are several clubs who went through the bother of building gates for this and won't be able to immediately afford to purchase x-pens.

Note that if this is the route chosen, you would also need to accept that such a change may drive away yet more people in areas like mine. But if people feel so strongly about its importance, put it out there. For everyone.

Good input and food for thought.

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 17, 2016, 10:15:06 AM
With regard to X-Hoopers and/or the hoop circle --- It is clear that many people view this obstacle as extremely beneficial and directly aligned with all that is NADAC. If that is the case, why not begin to incorporate it into some Regular courses, similar to the example that was shared in the Champs thread? Elite could have the full circle with all gates in place, Novice could have the hoop configuration with no gates, Open might have some of the gates introducing some sort of handler restriction but not the full intimidating circle.

The idea of introducing yet another (required?) class is completing daunting, both financially and in the time it takes to set/complete it at a trial. There will be people that grumble and complain (as they did with hoops, gates, and barrels) but most will accept it and give it a go -- at a NORMAL trial, not Champs. I'm not saying put it in every course -- We don't even see a barrel on every Regular course. Just make it a thing that might be part of a Regular course at a normal trial. That will give all competitors equal opportunity to experience this exercise without relying on clubs to offer an additional class and causing competitors to incur an additional expense. Clubs should be given the option of gates vs x-pens, though, as I imagine there are several clubs who went through the bother of building gates for this and won't be able to immediately afford to purchase x-pens.

Note that if this is the route chosen, you would also need to accept that such a change may drive away yet more people in areas like mine. But if people feel so strongly about its importance, put it out there. For everyone.

Karissa, I really appreciate that your focus is on a possible "solution" as opposed to a "problem".  The NADAC office loves "solution" ideas.  I like what you have to say above and will ponder that.   Maybe even a club could choose the option of offering "combo" or not and post it in their premium??  So a competitor would know in advance if one of the regular runs would be "combo" or not??

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on August 17, 2016, 10:16:16 AM
Right now, our club doesn't have enough of either the PVC gates or X-pens alone to form the circle.  For the purpose of practice, could we use a combination of both and if so could you give the length of each side minus the hoops?
Thanks,  Linda
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 17, 2016, 10:36:38 AM
Right now, our club doesn't have enough of either the PVC gates or X-pens alone to form the circle.  For the purpose of practice, could we use a combination of both and if so could you give the length of each side minus the hoops?
Thanks,  Linda

Absolutely!  Good practice!

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: MoabDiane on August 17, 2016, 10:51:42 AM
The x-pens are 16' long (8 panels that are 2' each).
The original PVC gates were 4' long.

So, one x-pen = 4 gates, between hoops.

The "wings" on the circle are 12' - so 3 gates or one x-pen folded in at the circle end (unless you want to cut them!).

If you are going to use both for practice, I would suggest using the gates on the "near" side of the circle, and the x-pens on the far side - so dogs can see the handler better.

My two cents' worth (minus inflation),
diane
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Amy McGovern on August 17, 2016, 11:20:55 AM
We are looking forward to trying X-hoopers in VT.  I'm wondering, are we allowed to use gates or does it have to be x-pens?  We happen to have access to a fair amount of gates but don't own enough x-pens. 

-Amy
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 17, 2016, 11:39:22 AM
We are looking forward to trying X-hoopers in VT.  I'm wondering, are we allowed to use gates or does it have to be x-pens?  We happen to have access to a fair amount of gates but don't own enough x-pens. 

-Amy

Gates are fine!  Use four gates if possible instead of the three used before.  Three causes the turns to be a bit tighter than desired.  If you only have enough for three, then use three.

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on August 17, 2016, 02:34:32 PM
We are looking forward to trying X-hoopers in VT.  I'm wondering, are we allowed to use gates or does it have to be x-pens?  We happen to have access to a fair amount of gates but don't own enough x-pens. 

-Amy

Gates are fine!  Use four gates if possible instead of the three used before.  Three causes the turns to be a bit tighter than desired.  If you only have enough for three, then use three.

Sharon
Okay. I am still trying to understand the exact number of either gates or x-pens or a combination of both for practicing.  Is this correct:  I can have 4 gates for 3 of the 4 sections going around the circle and one x-pen to finish the circle.   How many sections of the x-pen do I use for that part?  Do I need one or two gates for the wings?  And just to clarify, we can use either gates or x-pens for the VT runs, but not a combination of both.
Linda
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Marcy Matties on August 17, 2016, 02:52:25 PM
We are looking forward to trying X-hoopers in VT.  I'm wondering, are we allowed to use gates or does it have to be x-pens?  We happen to have access to a fair amount of gates but don't own enough x-pens. 

-Amy

Gates are fine!  Use four gates if possible instead of the three used before.  Three causes the turns to be a bit tighter than desired.  If you only have enough for three, then use three.

Sharon
Okay. I am still trying to understand the exact number of either gates or x-pens or a combination of both for practicing.  Is this correct:  I can have 4 gates for 3 of the 4 sections going around the circle and one x-pen to finish the circle.   How many sections of the x-pen do I use for that part?  Do I need one or two gates for the wings?  And just to clarify, we can use either gates or x-pens for the VT runs, but not a combination of both.
Linda

X-pens are 16" (8 sections x 2' each)  So you would use the entire X-pen for any sections around the circle.  For the wings you use 6 sections of 1 x-pens or 12'.  So if you use gates for the wings then you would use 3 of them, and gates for the circle preferably use 4 of them.  At least that's how I read/interpret it.  But it's practice so make whatever you have fit.
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 17, 2016, 03:49:52 PM
  How many sections of the x-pen do I use for that part?  Do I need one or two gates for the wings?  And just to clarify, we can use either gates or x-pens for the VT runs, but not a combination of both.
Linda

You cannot mix gates and x-pens for VT runs.  The rules are the same for VT as they are for a trial and a mix is not allowed.

If you are using gates for he wings, you need three on each side.

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Anne Etherton on August 17, 2016, 04:51:11 PM
I certainly agree with Kyle also. When I first saw the hoop circle at Champs four or more years  ago, it did look intimidating but I've learned how useful it is in teaching directionals. If I were to start a new dog that might be where I'd start.

Sharon, I hope you still feel like competing with those new dogs coming up!

Anne
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Marsha01 on August 17, 2016, 06:29:26 PM
I agree too.  the hoop circle is great for teaching directional to new dogs.  I have a young dog and I have started him this way.

Marsha Orrick
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Kyle on August 18, 2016, 08:45:14 AM
A couple of my thoughts:

Many dogs, including one of mine, need some time before they can offer new performances in the trial ring.  I have heard many trainers say that there is a delay between teaching a skill and seeing the skill present itself in the trial ring.  In my experience, I see it in about 8 weeks.  I have heard other trainers say 12 weeks, some 4 weeks.  So I would need to be completed teaching the skill prior to 8 weeks out, in order to have a reliable expectation of my dog performing it. 
--Ric Bonner

This could be a really interesting topic for a training conversation! I don't know if you, Ric, are on the Seminar List, but if you are, maybe you'd be willing to transfer this over to there??  :)

Thanks,
Kyle
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Sharon Nelson on August 18, 2016, 09:15:45 AM
A couple of my thoughts:

Many dogs, including one of mine, need some time before they can offer new performances in the trial ring.  I have heard many trainers say that there is a delay between teaching a skill and seeing the skill present itself in the trial ring.  In my experience, I see it in about 8 weeks.  I have heard other trainers say 12 weeks, some 4 weeks.  So I would need to be completed teaching the skill prior to 8 weeks out, in order to have a reliable expectation of my dog performing it. 
--Ric Bonner

This could be a really interesting topic for a training conversation! I don't know if you, Ric, are on the Seminar List, but if you are, maybe you'd be willing to transfer this over to there??  :)

Thanks,
Kyle

I know Kyle that we talk about it in "sessions" and I expect and see it all the time that dogs can learn what we are talking about in three sessions, so basically two weeks.  I know in seminars, they have it perfect by the third day and are trial ready.  We see it seminar after seminar and dogs go right to trials and perform beautifully.  All trainers are different.  I am much more of the "more on" and "move forward" in your training and don't bore the dog by repeating what he already knows when learning something new.  I do very little "drilling".

You have seen us start something new and have it perfected by the second day, the third day for sure.  I do believe that it is about the number of sessions trained, not the length of time.  But then I never bought any of the same thing when I was doing obedience.  And I loved my obedience scores also.

I push, too much for some, but I like to see the dog challenged without over pressuring them. 

But that is me and I do understand that there are many other methods and they work great too!!

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: Kyle on August 18, 2016, 10:27:33 AM
Just FYI - I absconded with this and moved it to a new topic because I didn't want it to relate directly to X-Hoopers...just wanted it more "general". I put it under "General Discussion" titled "Time & Teaching A New Skill".

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
-Kyle


A couple of my thoughts:

Many dogs, including one of mine, need some time before they can offer new performances in the trial ring.  I have heard many trainers say that there is a delay between teaching a skill and seeing the skill present itself in the trial ring.  In my experience, I see it in about 8 weeks.  I have heard other trainers say 12 weeks, some 4 weeks.  So I would need to be completed teaching the skill prior to 8 weeks out, in order to have a reliable expectation of my dog performing it. 
--Ric Bonner

This could be a really interesting topic for a training conversation! I don't know if you, Ric, are on the Seminar List, but if you are, maybe you'd be willing to transfer this over to there??  :)

Thanks,
Kyle

I know Kyle that we talk about it in "sessions" and I expect and see it all the time that dogs can learn what we are talking about in three sessions, so basically two weeks.  I know in seminars, they have it perfect by the third day and are trial ready.  We see it seminar after seminar and dogs go right to trials and perform beautifully.  All trainers are different.  I am much more of the "more on" and "move forward" in your training and don't bore the dog by repeating what he already knows when learning something new.  I do very little "drilling".

You have seen us start something new and have it perfected by the second day, the third day for sure.  I do believe that it is about the number of sessions trained, not the length of time.  But then I never bought any of the same thing when I was doing obedience.  And I loved my obedience scores also.

I push, too much for some, but I like to see the dog challenged without over pressuring them. 

But that is me and I do understand that there are many other methods and they work great too!!

Sharon
Title: Re: X-Hoopers as part of NATCH
Post by: bhodges865 on August 18, 2016, 06:31:39 PM
I know this is off topic but I LOVE NADAC!!  Yeah, you get those that just aren't happy with anything, but I just blow them off now.