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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 12:23:13 PM

Title: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 12:23:13 PM
Hey Folks,

Announcement video below.   Goes into effect in April.
https://youtu.be/z9yI8vByD3k (https://youtu.be/z9yI8vByD3k)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Deni on January 29, 2017, 12:47:35 PM
I like this change!

Will there be any adjustments to All Around Natch and the All Around Award? Or will the combined Hoopers class just be used for both and requirements otherwise stay as is?

Denise
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 12:51:04 PM
I like this change!

Will there be any adjustments to All Around Natch and the All Around Award? Or will the combined Hoopers class just be used for both and requirements otherwise stay as is?

Denise

The combined class will be used as the requirement for any award that required either Hoopers or X-Hoopers :)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Connie Day on January 29, 2017, 01:23:11 PM
What about qualifying for 2017 Championships?  Currently (per the website), we are required to earn 20 points in X-Hoopers, any level. 

Do we have to earn X-Hoopers points prior to April?  Would the combined hoopers class cover our requirements?

If we have numbered hooper Q's for the current year, prior to the classes being combined, would that satisfy the requirements?

Connie

Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 01:32:00 PM
They will combine so it won't matter.   We just need to update the Champs page to reflect that :)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: mephalon on January 29, 2017, 02:22:40 PM
Question about the points combining.  My Roxanne is in Elite Regular Hoopers but Novice X-Hoopers.   She has her Superiors in Novice, Open and Elite Regular Hoopers and I was working toward her Superior in Novice.

So in the new combined class what level do I enter her in and what happens to her Novice X-Hoopers points?   

Thanks
Mary
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 02:26:17 PM
They will all combine.   So if she has her Superiors in Numbered Hoopers then she will still have those superiors in the combined class.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 02:26:30 PM
You would be in Elite :)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: KarissaKS on January 29, 2017, 02:33:42 PM
Okay, so I was going to enter X-Hoopers at a trial in March to get qualifiers for Champs. But my dogs already have titles in regular Hoopers, so essentially I don't need to enter them in X-Hoopers now? If we need current-year points in Hoopers I'd rather wait until April when the gates are gone. So really, I guess I answered my own question and won't be entering X-Hoopers in March.

Thanks! I appreciate this change.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 02:35:53 PM
Okay, so I was going to enter X-Hoopers at a trial in March to get qualifiers for Champs. But my dogs already have titles in regular Hoopers, so essentially I don't need to enter them in X-Hoopers now? If we need current-year points in Hoopers I'd rather wait until April when the gates are gone. So really, I guess I answered my own question and won't be entering X-Hoopers in March.

Thanks! I appreciate this change.

You're all correct.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: mephalon on January 29, 2017, 02:43:11 PM
Thanks Chris-  I assume the opposite would apply as well- if you are in a higher level in X-Hoopers than Regular you would enter the new combined Hoopers at your X-Hoopers higher level-  is that correct?

Mary
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 02:45:01 PM
Basically just add up your points in each level for both Hoopers and X-Hoopers.   That will become your new total for each level in what will now be known as Hoopers.   
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: mephalon on January 29, 2017, 02:47:13 PM
So- adding my Fitzroy's Into Regular Hooper plus his Into X-Hoopers he would have 100 points in the new Hoopers at the Intro level- as of April does he have his Superior Into Hoopers title?   

M
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Sheila & the Shelties on January 29, 2017, 02:50:34 PM
Hi Chris, just a couple of comments and a question.

I thought the extreme Hoopers was an excellent distance challenge for those of us trying to expand our skills. I did think that novice was a little bit too hard sometimes, and perhaps needed to be made a little bit easier. I haven't seen it much, because it wasn't offered in our area. And that leads to my next comment. Some people are hesitant to jump on new things because they think that they will go away or be changed. So those of us who are often eager to try new things and see if they will work, won't get that because the new and different things in the future will not be available until it's certain it's not going to be changed or go away. The only other thought I had is that sometimes it's difficult on a limited budget to buy a new equipment if it is needed only to see that particular need for it go away.

I can't say I'm unhappy it's going away, but I can't say I'm happy either.

You said that the x pattern will still remain in the redesign of Hooper's courses. I'm assuming that means there will be no distance challenge. In other words, you can go in the areas in the x pattern that were prevented by the Gates or pens. Thanks for letting us know about the change!
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Sheila & the Shelties on January 29, 2017, 02:53:32 PM
One more question. Why is the change being made? Just curious. If you think it will open a whole new can of worms, you can reply privately.  😎
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 03:05:18 PM
Hi Chris, just a couple of comments and a question.

I thought the extreme Hoopers was an excellent distance challenge for those of us trying to expand our skills. I did think that novice was a little bit too hard sometimes, and perhaps needed to be made a little bit easier. I haven't seen it much, because it wasn't offered in our area. And that leads to my next comment. Some people are hesitant to jump on new things because they think that they will go away or be changed. So those of us who are often eager to try new things and see if they will work, won't get that because the new and different things in the future will not be available until it's certain it's not going to be changed or go away. The only other thought I had is that sometimes it's difficult on a limited budget to buy a new equipment if it is needed only to see that particular need for it go away.

I can't say I'm unhappy it's going away, but I can't say I'm happy either.

You said that the x pattern will still remain in the redesign of Hooper's courses. I'm assuming that means there will be no distance challenge. In other words, you can go in the areas in the x pattern that were prevented by the Gates or pens. Thanks for letting us know about the change!

There will be no distance test in the combined class.

This will be the only change for 2017. And most likely the only change in Classes for quite some time.  So folks can relax and settle in :)

One more question. Why is the change being made? Just curious. If you think it will open a whole new can of worms, you can reply privately.  😎

The earliest you will start seeing it is April.

April is when new trial applications will be required to have the combined class.

So it is also possible that you will see both classes for a few months following April as most of those premiums have already been approved and circulated.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on January 29, 2017, 03:24:13 PM
I am completely bummed about this change.   Hoopers will not be the same without the pens/gates.   Xhoopers is my favorite class.   I have done an Xhoopers session at almost all of my seminars last year and it was well received.  I think the Xpens really help some dogs get some distance.  Of course I can still do it, but many people won't be so receptive if it is not part of a current class.

Do you have an example of the course you have in mind for future hoopers??

While I understand some people were opposed to the gates/pens,  they always had the choice to enter or not.  It was not required for a NATCH- VNATCH.  If people wanted to do regular hoopers, they could do it VT or ask the clubs to add numbered hoopers.     I did not fill out the survey this year and now I wish I had and said I LOVE XHOOPERS.   As you know, people usually fill out surveys when they do not like something..not when they are happy. It would be nice to do a specific survey asking exhibitors what they think about Xhoopers and the change.   
Xhoopers is a large class at  all my trials.  Most people enter it and enjoy it.
Yes they can still enter it when it changes (If I decide to offer it) . but honestly,  I dont want a run  just a hoopers course and  I know others feel the same way.  I enjoyed the challenge of the barrier. (And yes I know I can handle it if there were gates..but not the same).

So is there anyway you would rethink this and allow clubs the choice what they want to offer??  Do  a specific survey and ask exhibitors what they think??



 
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Jillhubb on January 29, 2017, 03:35:13 PM
I learned to really enjoy XHoopers ~ I'm sorry to see the challenge go away :( ~
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: KarissaKS on January 29, 2017, 03:44:50 PM
While I understand some people were opposed to the gates/pens,  they always had the choice to enter or not.  It was not required for a NATCH- VNATCH.  If people wanted to do regular hoopers, they could do it VT or ask the clubs to add numbered hoopers. 

Until x-hoopers was made a requirement to attend Champs in 2017. Then we were not given a choice.

I like hoopers, even though I rarely saw it offered at the trials I attended up north. I literally never attended a trial with x-hoopers. I will support hoopers without the gates.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: dogrsqr on January 29, 2017, 04:22:28 PM
The Minnesota Mixed Breed Club offered Hoopers at 3 of the 4 trials we had last year. I rarely enter Hoopers at trials other than ours because I don't really care for it.  I have vouchers to pay for it at our trials.  I have really enjoyed X-Hoopers.  Without the distance requirement I think Hoopers is pretty boring.  Can you post a sample of what the new Hoopers will look like.  I was personally happy when I thought regular Hoopers was going to go away.

Gina
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: mephalon on January 29, 2017, 04:30:20 PM
I must agree that I am sad X-Hoopers is going away. My favorite Hoopers was Strategic but recently X-Hoopers is a close second. Do not really care for numbered Hoopers- running the hoops circle with gates/pens is great fun- numbered Hoopers not as much. Granted I always have fun running my dogs and this change will not change that but I will miss the hoop circle.

I really wanted to try the hoop circle built into Regular like I saw from 2016 Champs but I guess that is out as well
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 04:31:49 PM
I'll post a picture of the course ideas as April gets closer.

The sad truth is that entry numbers for X-Hoopers, Country wide, not just in a specific area are a third of the size of the next smallest class.

That's not good!   Most all of the classes are pretty even when it comes to the entry numbers.   But X-Hoopers falls very very far behind.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Cheryl Gilbert on January 29, 2017, 04:33:29 PM
So very very glad this announcement came out before I ordered more xpens.  :-)   
Cheryl
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 04:33:43 PM
I must agree that I am sad X-Hoopers is going away. My favorite Hoopers was Strategic but recently X-Hoopers is a close second. Do not really care for numbered Hoopers- running the hoops circle with gates/pens is great fun- numbered Hoopers not as much. Granted I always have fun running my dogs and this change will not change that but I will miss the hoop circle.

I really wanted to try the hoop circle built into Regular like I saw from 2016 Champs but I guess that is out as well

I would love that as well!

But the idea of us adding a new class, or changing a class that greatly right now would only deepen the 'nadac changes every year' sentiment that a lot of people have.  And we are working away from that.

Yes this is also a change.  But by the numbers it's a change that will go over well.   And after this one the classes won't be changing anytime soon, so we can stabilize a bit from the constant change stigma :)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Martha Armstrong Gray on January 29, 2017, 05:14:10 PM
I would love to see a sample hoppers course with the X hoop design in it.  I am not sure how it will be different from regular hoopers.  What should we be practicing?
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 05:24:12 PM
I would love to see a sample hoppers course with the X hoop design in it.  I am not sure how it will be different from regular hoopers.  What should we be practicing?


You won't need to practice anything specific beyond regular handling skills.

It will probably start to test more of the skills that Hoops really highlight, so pathword, turns, that sort of thing.

So just work on nice tight turns and good pathwork and you'll be good in Hoopers and most other classes as well :)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on January 29, 2017, 05:25:15 PM
I'm bummed by this.  We finally got trials and people in our region to embrace X-Hoopers and everyone seems to love it.  Including me!  In fact, at our last trial, my dogs and I got to run Open X-Hoopers for the very first time and it was the first time they experienced the far get out straight line at the back and both did great!  My young dog blazed through the course and it was one of the biggest rushes I've had recently.  It was so much fun!!!  I was sold on that class and couldn't wait to do more.  The xpens/gates is what makes it fun and challenging.  Although it took a bit of time to set up the course (and memorize the long course patterns when walking), it was SO MUCH FUN!!!
Darn.  Guess I'm glad I have a few trials before then when I get to run it.  But, most likely will not enter regular Hoopers when it is gone.  I haven't run regular Hoopers for a few years now.  Like Lisa said, I think it is just not as fun without the gates.  :(
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 05:29:00 PM
I think people might be like what the new class will have to offer.

It will be a nice blend of all the different hoopers we have had through the years, with the best traits from all of them
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: dogrsqr on January 29, 2017, 05:42:34 PM
Our club was going to offer it for the first time in May.  More would have been coming.  I guess I'll have to voice my opinion by not entering Hoopers anymore, or Barrelers either.

Gina
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 05:46:45 PM
Our club was going to offer it for the first time in May.  More would have been coming.  I guess I'll have to voice my opinion by not entering Hoopers anymore, or Barrelers either.

Gina

You definitely could!   But it wouldn't change this sadly.

The difference with those classes is that they are actually getting bigger.   Numbered Hoopers and even Barrelers, which is a surprise to me, have gotten larger over the years.  X-Hoopers has not.   It leveled out and the truth is that the same people who were entering it 4 years ago are the same people entering it today.  Which isn't growth.

A lot of people dislike barrelers, but more people are entering it than ever before. Which is why it stayed.  We aren't going to axe something that people are gaining interest in.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on January 29, 2017, 05:59:51 PM
my region has offered Barrelers for longer than XHoopers.  In my opinion, that is why Barrelers numbers are higher, at least in this region... clubs are JUST NOW starting to offer XHoopers out here, so you would have new increasing numbers coming in it.  I find more enjoy XHoopers than Barrelers.  It seems very accepted.  Most dogs do ok at it.  Only have seen a dog or two that was real confused.  I've not heard any negative comments about XHoopers the few times I've ran it at trials.
Just printed out the new U2KanDu premium.  At the top it reads "NEW:: 2 ROUNDS X-HOOPERS!"  This is only the 2nd trial they have offered it.  So, it is just now starting to get offered out here by the clubs.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: agilityschips on January 29, 2017, 07:08:55 PM
I will also miss X-hoopers. I called it the circle of ZOOM and my LBDs (aka Schipperkes) liked it too. It was challenging since my dogs couldn't see my feet.

We have enjoyed EVERY extreme game that came out - no matter how long we got to play it.

My questions are:
Will the points be combined automatically on the NADAC points page?
Do we need to request points to be combined from all of the "extinct" classes into "surviving" classes (X-chances, gamblers, gaters etc.)?

Love NADAC, Kathy Swan (WA state)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Brenda Nault on January 29, 2017, 08:45:27 PM
Bummer going to  miss my favorited class but on the other hand hated hoopers so let's see what the new way is like???? When can we see some examples?
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 29, 2017, 09:20:37 PM
I will also miss X-hoopers. I called it the circle of ZOOM and my LBDs (aka Schipperkes) liked it too. It was challenging since my dogs couldn't see my feet.

We have enjoyed EVERY extreme game that came out - no matter how long we got to play it.

My questions are:
Will the points be combined automatically on the NADAC points page?
Do we need to request points to be combined from all of the "extinct" classes into "surviving" classes (X-chances, gamblers, gaters etc.)?

Love NADAC, Kathy Swan (WA state)

The Hoopers point are going to automatically combine.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: DeafSheltieMom on January 30, 2017, 03:06:41 AM
I'm going to miss the hoop circle... it is my dog's favorite "obstacle".  We just ran Numbered Hoopers for the first time in about a year, since the clubs here in SoCal mainly offered X-Hoopers.  The challenge wasn't the same... there is something psychological about having that physical barrier there to manage.  I'd be interested in seeing how it will run without the xpens.  Regardless, the circle of zoom will be missed.  I'm sad already...
-dayle
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Janice_Shavor on January 30, 2017, 05:39:18 AM
I do remember the first time I tried to set X-Hoopers and work the patterns across the circle.  I got so frustrated!  So, I took the gates away and found trying to do the patterns outside the circle MUCH harder than with the gates.  I do admit I would prefer folks to have had an opportunity to train it first so their dogs understand there are 4 hoops opening the circle and you can go in them and out them.  It provides an excellent way to get distance with a dog not used to distance!  I am glad the classes are combined for points; but, dang!, XHP is such fun to run!!  Wish we could just combine the 2 classes like we did with numbered hoopers and strategic hoopers and then see how that plays out.  It took so long to get it going here in the SE, that competitors in this area have had 1 year to see XHP at a trial and see if they want to play.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Sara Langston on January 30, 2017, 06:27:33 AM
This change is really, really disappointing and frustrating.  What is the thinking behind this change????  We have just now been able to offer X-Hoopers is this area and people are loving it!!!!  Also, many clubs have recently invested money to buy x-pens or make gates and now that money has been wasted.  I waited a year or so to be sure this was a class that was going to stick around before I invested in x-pens and now, they are no longer going to be used.  That really hurts from my standpoint as I don't have money to throw away.  I really wish you would reconsider and leave X-Hoopers alone.  We ran it at my trial this past weekend and everyone LOVES it!!!!! 

Also, in my opinion, Numbered Hoopers sucks and I will not offer it at my trials!!!!!

Sara
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Paulette Couture on January 30, 2017, 07:43:32 AM
I'm so sorry X-Hoopers is being eliminated, as I came to like it very much after having the opportunity to try it.  I wish more people would have at least given it a try.  If they had, I believe they would have liked it as well. 

I submitted our club's trial application last week for our June 2-4 trial, listing one regular Hoopers class and two X-Hoopers classes.  Will I need to resubmit my application? 

Thank you!
Paulette Couture
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 30, 2017, 07:44:33 AM
We'll be doing a facebook live discussion at 3PM EST today.
I'll try to cover a few things.

Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on January 30, 2017, 08:06:38 AM
I guess I am one of the few who really didn't like X-hoopers.  First, for my cattle dog, who is 9, she just really didn't like it.  There was no "challenge" to her.   If she can't be "doing" something, it just isn't fun to her.  Just running is NOT her thing.  Was she good at it, yes.  She was able to do it pretty well.  But did she like it.  No.  I can tell by her body language that she is doing it because I asked her to do it.  But, she also is not all that fond of tunnelers for the same reason.  My little guy, is fast and furious, but he is so small that with the gates he couldn't see me and he got frustrated. It was much better with  the gates, but we were only in novice level.  I am not sure what would have happened at the upper level.  And my beagle, who has very little distance skills because we run for fun got lost within the circle many times.  My baby dog, who will be starting this year, was trained with the pens, might have liked it, so I am a little sad for her, but there are plenty of other events to have fun in.

Second, running multiple dogs in multiple events, adding X-hoopers (up to 8 events a day) is hard on MY body.  I simply cannot do it in certain environments like indoor soccer arenas.  It is too hard on my surgically repaired knees and ankles.  Also, since we didn't see X-hoopers much, we didn't have the time to gather points, that was the one that was cut.  My dogs are older and to start in novice and try to work up at this point in the careers was not something that I really cared to do simply for a title.  I was going to run it this year to qualify for Champs, but that was really going to be it.  Again, the baby dog might have been a different story. 

My third point is, when there are so many classes already offed at a NADAC trial, the costs to run all of the events becomes prohibitive.  I run 3 dogs and am adding a 4th.  Even with picking and choosing which events to run, I have well over $300 per trial in entry fees alone for the 3 dogs.  If I have to pick and choose, I will go with the events that lead me to my NATCH and V-NATCH and also ones that my dogs like.  Yes, I know the dogs don't know about the titles, but since the dogs don't really care for the event either, I choose to not do it and cut costs.  IF I have to choose, I would run tunnelers instead with 2 of my dogs because they both LOVE it.  They have a TON of points in it, but they love it.  If I have to cut an event, I cut weavers for one of the dogs because she doesn't like it, I cut tunnelers for another, etc.  It really is about finances at times.  Especially, since in our area, there are only a handful of local trials, so I have to spend money on hotels, food, gas, etc. 


Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: cheyaut on January 30, 2017, 09:51:48 AM
I'm so sad to hear about this. X Hoopers was my second favorite class (jumpers slightly ahead). I hate numbered (and even worse was strategic) hoopers and won't enter those. I always was excited to enter x hoopers when I could :(
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Rosemary on January 30, 2017, 10:09:05 AM
I am kind of bummed that this class is going away.  I'll admit that I was hesitant, but when it became a requirement for champs I took the bull by the horns and worked on it.  We entered the class a couple of times and had a lot of fun.  One of my dogs is a classic "velcro dog" and getting him to Q in ex-hoopers was a huge deal for us.  Personally, I think the reason for the low entries is that this particular class was not offered all that much.  It might have been a good idea to require clubs to offer it a certain number of times throughout the course of a year to get an actual idea of it's popularity or lack there of.  I'm not criticizing, just offering an opinion.  I still love NADAC overall.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: mephalon on January 30, 2017, 10:21:16 AM
We'll be doing a facebook live discussion at 3PM EST today.
I'll try to cover a few things.

Can you watch those after the fact or only if you are live  (work may frown upon me watching a live video during the day- although I do go on Facebook (shhhhhh)  ;)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 30, 2017, 10:23:47 AM
You can watch them later

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on January 30, 2017, 11:20:50 AM
Having had some time to consider these changes, I have some questions/concerns.
1.  Personally, I am sad to see X-hoopers go away.  Given a choice, I would have voted to keep X-hoopers with gates/X-pens over Numbered Hoopers.  The new class seems like just another Numbered Hoopers course with some different sequences/challenges.
2.  My club hosted one X-games trial back in 2014.  While the trial was well received, we never repeated it due to several factors not related to the actual classes.  We hold outdoor trials and have limited daylight, so, until this year, we haven't offered X-hoopers.  Due to the Champs requirement of having 20 points in X-Hoopers to qualify, there has been renewed interest in this class and we were expecting an increase in entries.   
3.  Our gates and hoops have been funded by myself, mostly, and some other club members.  I just made 3 more gates to be in compliance with the new size of the gate circle-my cost again.   So... on a personal level, I have quite a bit of money invested in X-hoopers. 
4.  My club's trial is coming up at the end of March and we are offering both Numbered Hoopers and X-Hoopers on our premium.  I am concerned about what the changes will do to our entries, not to mention the many questions I will be getting about combining points and what level to enter.  Will we be able to amend the premium and if so, what class(es) can we add and stay within the guidelines.  Is there still a requirement that Regular be offered on all three days if more that 3 runs are offered on Friday?
Sorry for adding to your already big headache!
Linda Anderson
Star City K 9 Training Club
Roanoke, VA
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on January 30, 2017, 11:26:52 AM
We'll be doing a facebook live discussion at 3PM EST today.
I'll try to cover a few things.
On the NADAC facebook page?
Linda
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Rena Bonem on January 30, 2017, 11:38:47 AM
I will not be sorry to see the ex-pens leave the ring.  I have seen more than one dog run full speed into one though I am sure it was the handlers fault, I do see a risk involved with inserting them into a hoopers course.  I think they do have a purpose in training, but when handlers blindly try to do courses as fast as possible, they do pose a risk for the dog.

Rena
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Sara Langston on January 30, 2017, 11:39:17 AM
Our club was going to offer it for the first time in May.  More would have been coming.  I guess I'll have to voice my opinion by not entering Hoopers anymore, or Barrelers either.

Gina

You definitely could!   But it wouldn't change this sadly.

The difference with those classes is that they are actually getting bigger.   Numbered Hoopers and even Barrelers, which is a surprise to me, have gotten larger over the years.  X-Hoopers has not.   It leveled out and the truth is that the same people who were entering it 4 years ago are the same people entering it today.  Which isn't growth.

A lot of people dislike barrelers, but more people are entering it than ever before. Which is why it stayed.  We aren't going to axe something that people are gaining interest in.

It is very sad that you would think X-Hoopers has not been a popular class since the clubs in the Southeast haven't had the opportunity to offer it very much.  Laughing Dog has only had it at two trials, last October and this past weekend, and it has been an overwhelming success!!!!  People were so afraid of the class as it was described to them and from looking at sample course maps.  However, once they saw how it was run, they all wanted to try it and everyone had a blast with it.  So many people were excited about going home and working on their "new skills".   The comment I heard most about X-Hoopers at these trials was that the dogs had so much fun running the course.  Also, the entry numbers were very comparable to the entry numbers for all the other classes in these trials. 

I loved Strategy Hoopers and it went away.  And now, X-Hoopers is going away before we have had a chance to really embrace it.  Here in the Southeast, we only have a few trials each year so we can take advantage of a newly introduced class as quickly as areas where there are trials almost every weekend or at least twice a month. 

It really makes me sick that X-Hoopers is going away.  It was one of the few things left that really set NADAC apart from the other venues.  So, so, so disappointed. 

Sara
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Sharon Nelson on January 30, 2017, 11:40:43 AM
Having had some time to consider these changes, I have some questions/concerns.
1.  Personally, I am sad to see X-hoopers go away.  Given a choice, I would have voted to keep X-hoopers with gates/X-pens over Numbered Hoopers.  The new class seems like just another Numbered Hoopers course with some different sequences/challenges.
2.  My club hosted one X-games trial back in 2014.  While the trial was well received, we never repeated it due to several factors not related to the actual classes.  We hold outdoor trials and have limited daylight, so, until this year, we haven't offered X-hoopers.  Due to the Champs requirement of having 20 points in X-Hoopers to qualify, there has been renewed interest in this class and we were expecting an increase in entries.   
3.  Our gates and hoops have been funded by myself, mostly, and some other club members.  I just made 3 more gates to be in compliance with the new size of the gate circle-my cost again.   So... on a personal level, I have quite a bit of money invested in X-hoopers. 
4.  My club's trial is coming up at the end of March and we are offering both Numbered Hoopers and X-Hoopers on our premium.  I am concerned about what the changes will do to our entries, not to mention the many questions I will be getting about combining points and what level to enter.  Will we be able to amend the premium and if so, what class(es) can we add and stay within the guidelines.  Is there still a requirement that Regular be offered on all three days if more that 3 runs are offered on Friday?
Sorry for adding to your already big headache!
Linda Anderson
Star City K 9 Training Club
Roanoke, VA

As far as #4, there are no changes to the existing rules about what classes must be or cannot be offered.  A change in Hoopers will not change any other rules already in place.

Sharon
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Vicki Storrs on January 30, 2017, 12:47:28 PM
So we have a trial coming up in February offering X Hoopers. Do I enter at their X Hoopers level or at their numbered Hoopers level? 

Oh, also Chris, you're doing a live discussion on Facebook...is Facebook now an "official" NADAC resource?  I am not on Facebook, and hope I don't have to be, but do check the Forum at least daily (and once I figured it out, find it ever so easy to do so).  Can I express an opinion that while it's not necessarily bad to have multiple resources for information IF the same info goes out everywhere, I find it challenging when I hear that there are Some details provided one way and other information coming out at another source... not conflicting, necessarily, but providing an incomplete picture if you only access one or the other.

I also will be sorry to see X Hoopers go.  I haven't run it much, and am probably part of the problem' or the low entries, since it wasn't offered often here I chose to spend my $ elsewhere.  But I did and do LIKE the class and the Champs requirement has meant that it's starting to show up more often, making it easier to justify entering.  Also, I was one of those who bit the bullet and sprang for the ex pens so I could practice at home...no small expense. However I think I can still use it as a good training option, or, if not, I am set with ex pens FOR LIFE!!

Vicki's Storrs
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Brenda George on January 30, 2017, 01:40:48 PM
I feel like I just lost a lot of Novice X hooper points!   My dogs are in Elite # hoopers.  When you say the points will be combined I am guessing you will NOT transfer my Novice points to Elite hoopers. Also will I need to get an Open title ( 30 pts) in X hoopers before moving them up to Elite X hooopers?
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: A Jussero on January 30, 2017, 01:59:46 PM
Loved XHP using the gates, dogs loved it also.  X-pens made me nervous safety-wise.  Numbered hoopers is just another jumpers course but for my old, blind dog it was easy on his body and I could stay right beside him to guide with my voice.  So, if you add lines where the gates were, please make that remain always an option, never a requirement.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris on Mushtown Road on January 30, 2017, 02:08:52 PM
You can also go to the first post in this very thread, where the announcement video is posted.




You can watch them later

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Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Edraith on January 30, 2017, 03:30:33 PM
I really like the idea of tape on ground like chances to earn bonus 5 points. Seems like a good compromise and i really enjoy trying distance work because with SAR most our things are distance. Although usually im following my dog in SAR since its her nose we are listening to, ive already started using "here" a lot of i change direction and need her to check where Im at (if i hit an area boundary or such, for example). Its really helped us because my Come can be right in front of me proper recall and Here is a flyby/check my direction.

If the tape on ground circle passes as a solution, can it be implimented with VT for 15?
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: mephalon on January 30, 2017, 05:08:41 PM
I like the idea of a line on the ground and would love to see that option at all levels not just Elite (thinking bonus box/lines which are just Elite).

Give the Intro/Novice/Open the extra 5 point option as well please.

Mary
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: George A on January 30, 2017, 05:23:40 PM
Chris,
Count me in the disappointed camp.  I really enjoyed the X-Hoopers.

Now, accepting that there will be a change---I do like the idea of the tape "line" for  an extra 5 points.   And, would like to suggest perhaps a second tape "line" that might offer an extra 10 point challenge.  This would give a total of 15 or 20 points depending on the challenge and success of completing those challenges.

George Axtell
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: dogrsqr on January 30, 2017, 07:35:32 PM
Honestly I have always tried and entered the classes that I have not liked.  I'm frustrated that people just want to do what's comfortable and easy and can't push themselves.  I complain, probably more than the average bear, but I still do it.  I pushed myself to run XGC because I understood that it would make me a better handler.  I continue to push myself to occasionally enter Barrelers even though it frustrates me because it will make me a better handler.  Why can't we just leave X-Hoopers and let those that like it play it?  Does it matter that the numbers are low?  I think what's being said here is that it would have grown this year.  We have offered numbered hoopers and barrelers even though we get about 1/2 the entries of every other class at a trial.  At this point we're just looking for entries anywhere we can get them.

Gina Pizzo
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 30, 2017, 07:42:33 PM
So we have a trial coming up in February offering X Hoopers. Do I enter at their X Hoopers level or at their numbered Hoopers level? 

Oh, also Chris, you're doing a live discussion on Facebook...is Facebook now an "official" NADAC resource?  I am not on Facebook, and hope I don't have to be, but do check the Forum at least daily (and once I figured it out, find it ever so easy to do so).  Can I express an opinion that while it's not necessarily bad to have multiple resources for information IF the same info goes out everywhere, I find it challenging when I hear that there are Some details provided one way and other information coming out at another source... not conflicting, necessarily, but providing an incomplete picture if you only access one or the other.

I also will be sorry to see X Hoopers go.  I haven't run it much, and am probably part of the problem' or the low entries, since it wasn't offered often here I chose to spend my $ elsewhere.  But I did and do LIKE the class and the Champs requirement has meant that it's starting to show up more often, making it easier to justify entering.  Also, I was one of those who bit the bullet and sprang for the ex pens so I could practice at home...no small expense. However I think I can still use it as a good training option, or, if not, I am set with ex pens FOR LIFE!!

Vicki's Storrs

We're uploading the video from facebook now so that we can post it here :)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: DebbieP on January 30, 2017, 08:07:36 PM
I understand the need on NADAC's part to not offer classes that aren't filling.  And I understand that people already have to pick and choose from a full array of classes.  However, I truly loved X-Hoopers.  At first, I was frustrated and one of my dogs who is a typical bull in a china shop had difficulty the first time I ran him; he plowed right into the gate, but luckily he wasn't at all daunted or hurt and just continued on the course.  Since then, he and my other dog just lit up when we ran X-Hoopers. They loved it!  It tests handling, distance, and timing in a way that other classes don't.  I will miss it.  Because I travel a bit  sometimes to trial, I had run XHoopers elsewhere, but here in KY, we've just begun offering X-Hoopers.  So it hasn't had much time to take off.  At our January trial, we offered it for the second time and exhibitors were thrilled, cheering each other on.  I've only seen that enthusiasm in Chances.  I wonder what might have happened if we had offered it sooner, or for a longer time, to see if it would catch on.  Nonetheless, I'm curious to see what the new Hoopers will be like.

Debbie P in Louisville KY
with Dylan and Java Joe
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Sandy Langan on January 30, 2017, 08:11:49 PM
I am one that is a little disappointed in the announcement on x hoopers but also totally understand the business end of it. The numbers don't lie and you must do whats good for the company or organization. Our club also made a personal investment in both gates and ex pens. I believe the gates are an awesome distance training tool and will continue to be used, and the ex pens will make our animal society very happy if we decide to donate them.  I know there are people  that miss the strategy hoopers. Could we some how blend that into the new class and maybe have a choice of distance challenges to try? A, B, or C. Just something to think about. I agree that the regular hoopers now is just another jumpers class. Maybe doing the circle line and the option of difference tests will kind of give everyone a piece of their favorite version of hoopers and make them happy. Just food for thought. I'm going to support whatever you decide because I love NADAC. I would agree with your first video in that it would be wise to try and not change things anymore. People don't do well with change as you are finding out. I hope they are kind and polite in their words as we have enough rude people out there in the world these days. The news is full of them. Thanks for keeping us up to date. We appreciate that and all your hard work. Sandy Langan
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: agility junkie on January 30, 2017, 08:16:52 PM
Hi Chris: I need ten elite hoopers Q's for abbey to get her All Around Natch. currently she has her superior x hoopers title in Novice  and an open x hoopers Q. If combined with hoopers does this mean she has her All Around?
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: giddyup on January 31, 2017, 12:06:59 AM
Just out of curiosity, if you knew this change was coming (as you said, you didn't decide this overnight), then why was it made a requirement for 2017 Champs?

Also, possibly entry numbers may have been low in X-Hoopers and even Barrelers because they weren't required for the regular NATCH, and with so many classes offered a day at trials, usually 8, people either didn't want to run their dogs in that many classes a day or didn't want to spend the money on so many classes a day, especially if it wasn't a NATCH requirement. (and yes, I understand it is for an All Around NATCH).  I do mulitple agility venues, and I notice that a lot of people don't run the newer "games" in AKC because they aren't required for the AKC MACH.  I'm sure it's sort of the same reasoning.  Spending extra money when it doesn't go towards anything (championship).  They did recently come up with a new Grand Champion type of title requiring those classes probably to encourage higher entry numbers. 

And for the record, although I haven't had the chance to do a lot of X-Hoopers, I did enjoy the class and am one of the ones that will be sorry to see it CHANGED.

Jill
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: giddyup on January 31, 2017, 12:33:18 AM
Another question - about point combining.  How will that work?
For example, one of my dogs has:  30 pts in Nov Hoopers
                                                   10 pts in Opn Hoopers
                                                   30 pts in Nov XHoopers
when the points combine, will she have 60 pts in Nov Hoopers and 10 pts in Op Hoopers
                                                                   OR
                                                          30 pts in Nov Hoopers, 30 pts in Op Hoopers and 10 pts in Elite
                                                           Hoopers for a total of the 70 points she has now
                                                                   OR
                                                           all 70 pts in Nov Hoopers

Thanks for your help
Jill
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2017, 05:04:00 AM
The points combine by level.

If you have 10 points in novice hoopers and 10 points in novice x hoopers you will nowbhave 20 points in novice.

If you have 10 points in open hoopers and no points in open x hoopers you will have 10 points.



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2017, 05:04:47 AM
For the folks who aren't on facebook you can watch both videos from a link on this page:

Nadac.com/RuleChanges.php

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Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2017, 05:10:37 AM
Also since this is the forum and it's great for discussing things. 

Why does everyone think that the class is just over with?  This is where i am very confused.

If you like doing those tests from that area of the course, then continue to do them!   I've said it in each video the course design will follow that of x hoopers,  just with more options now that the barrier is gone.

And by the looks of the emails i have gotten so far there is probably going to be a line with bonus points for doing so.   

So why is it the end of the world when in all reality you can run the exact same way you have been?

It will be more challenging, but so far almost everyone who has commented has said the original reason they didn't do it was because their dog wouldn't do distance and the gates helped guide them and now their dog loves it.   So you originally didn't like it because of a challenge.  So now that you know that challenge can be incredibly gratifying when completed why hate the idea of a new challenge, and it's actually a new challenge that you have been able to train for while running for the past 5 years.

I'm just very confused as to what people believe the course design will be.  It will be x hoopers, with the possibility for more options.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Marcy Matties on January 31, 2017, 05:29:58 AM
Also since this is the forum and it's great for discussing things. 

Why does every think that the class is just over with?  This is where i am very confused.

If you like doing those tests from that area of the course, then continue to do them!   I've said it in each video the course design will follow that of x hoopers,  just with more options now that the barrier is gone.

And by the looks of the emails i have gotten so far there is probably going to be a line with bonus points for doing so.   

So why is it the end of the world when in all reality you can run the exact same way you have been?

It will be more challenging, but so far almost everyone who's commented has said the original reason they didn't do it was because their dog wouldn't do distance and the gates helped guide them and now their dog loves it.   So you originally didn't like it because of a challenge.  So now that you know that challenge can be incredibly gratifying when completed why hate the idea of a new challenge, and it's actually a new challenge that you have been able to train for while running for the past 5 years.

I'm just very confused as to what people believe the course design will be.  It will be x hoopers, with the possibility for more options.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

I think the confusion maybe is in the initial video/post it was said more like it would be a combining of XHoopers and #d Hoopers. With the gates removed and the circle maybe moved somewhere else on the course. And people picked up on the "combining" with #d Hoopers that is, to them, a different animal.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2017, 05:38:29 AM
Thanks Marcy!  See that is nice helpful info, lol. 

So since maybe I butchered the wording in the video let me be clear here for everyone.

It WILL be the X-Hoopers pattern.   What I meant, in my head at least.  Is that with the barriers gone it opens up more options for course design.  But it would still just be building on the already well built foundation of X-Hoopers.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Marcy Matties on January 31, 2017, 06:07:35 AM
Thanks Marcy!  See that is nice helpful info, lol. 

So since maybe I butchered the wording in the video let me be clear here for everyone.

It WILL be the X-Hoopers pattern.   What I meant, in my head at least.  Is that with the barriers gone it opens up more options for course design.  But it would still just be building on the already well built foundation of X-Hoopers.

Thanks Chris!  That makes me very happy.  That isn't what I envisioned from your first video.  I really didn't have a "vision" of what you were meaning, but I saw it as more a melding of the two.  This clarification excites me.  It will be MORE of a challenge than with the gates and I look forward to trying my crazy boy without the gates and maybe with a line!
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Vicki Storrs on January 31, 2017, 06:12:36 AM
And your clarification will, I believe, be nice and helpful, too, Chris!  Thank you.  I was also one who just wasn't certain quite what you meant and this helps.
You make essentially a business decision (because NADAC HAS to run as a business to survive, much as we might all, even you, wish otherwise) to try to modify/merge some classes because they aren't proving to be financially viable as is for NADAC or the clubs.  All of us hit the forum crying "but we LOVE X Hoopers!" (and being one of those who got to try X Hoopers first at a FunRaiser WAY BACK I know it didn't just get introduced yesterday, so all of us saying give it more time...well, you actually gave it a LOT of time). Was it just about 6 months or so ago the forum was inflamed by "X Hoopers at Champs??!!  How dare you!" ? 
I'm not sure there is any way for you to win, Chris (as Sharon can very well tell you I suspect).  The old "some of the people some of the time..." But most of us LOVE NADAC, and love the people who run it and do all the support work and love how it continues to make us stretch to reach training and handling goals many of us wouldn't have thought possible.  So thanks Chris, and thanks to ALL the NADAC crew.  This too shall pass and we'll come out the other side okay...and ready for the NEXT change!!  (Like maybe me finally breaking down and getting on Facebook...Ack!! :-)
Vicki Storrs
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2017, 06:17:37 AM
Thank you Vicki!

You can also watch any videos that relate to rule changes from this page:
nadac.com/RuleChanges.php (http://nadac.com/RuleChanges.php)

Then you don't have to make the facebook transition :)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: dogrsqr on January 31, 2017, 08:01:34 AM
First of all Chris don't take anything personally.  People need to vent, to at least feel like they've been heard, it's part of the process of accepting change for some of us.  I think for me it feels a little bit like my handler just did a reverse flow pivot ... going from you need 2 X-Hoopers Q's to qualify for Champs to now the class is going away.  So I was going in one direction and now have to collect to go in the other. 

I think a lot of us would/will feel more comfortable if/when we see some sample courses.  Now I'm concerned with talk of obstacles beyond the "circle".  I can't run with my dog and I won't do bonus line distance with her because neither of us is comfortable with that much distance for that long of sequences.  When you mention obstacles on the other side of the "circle" now I'm envisioning a course where I can't find a spot to handle; where I might get stuck IN the circle and my dog is not going to come back thru the circle with me standing in it.

I would consider it a compliment that you have so many people passionate about NADAC agility.

Gina Pizzo
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2017, 08:32:21 AM
Hey Gina,

Passion is good!
I did just do a new video showing what a course could look like, it's on the page I linked above for Vicki.

I do agree the new courses will sometimes be built in such a way that handling them from where the original circle was will be very difficult.  But the good news is that it would still be a 10 point Q to step into that area now and be in the correct position for your dog.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: philwala on January 31, 2017, 08:49:10 AM
Will ALL Hoopers/X-Hoopers points be automatically combined, or only those which have not already been used to earn titles?  For example, if I already have my HP-N and XHP-N titles, do I keep both those titles, or does my XHP-N automatically become an O-HP-N (assuming “combination” essentially means transferring XHP points to HP)?  If I already have my S-HP-N, does the XHP-N title go away and just become 30 superfluous HP-N points? Just thinking of scenarios in which some might NOT want certain points combined, especially if they already have all their HP titles at a given level, and would like to hang on to their “orphaned” XHP title.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2017, 08:58:37 AM
They will automatically combine to all be just called 'Hoopers'.

But there will be an identifying marker on my end.  So if someone did wish to keep their XHP titles I could then transfer them back so that title would show up.

Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: danforth on January 31, 2017, 09:36:40 AM
Chris

I really appreciate your videos.   They are great!   I do have a couple of questions.

The markers you mentioned demarck a triangular area on each side of the circle.   Is that the area from which you run the distance challenge?    Do you have to pick one or the other?

Is the distance challenge available for open and novice runners who have been running and enjoying X hoopers or only for elite?

And is the all around award still available for those who get superior hoopers at each level?

Thanks.

Isabel



Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2017, 09:44:20 AM
1) It would be the same as where the circle currently is.  So long as you're on the south side of the line you would be good!

2) Not sure yet.   Very happy we have some time to figure that one out.

3) All Around will still include Hoopers
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: mephalon on January 31, 2017, 10:52:14 AM
2) Not sure yet.   Very happy we have some time to figure that one out.


PLEASE have the option available at Novice/Open level.    I know we can always try the distance challenge regardless of whether it would be for an extra 5 points or not but the Novice/Open people should be rewarded for being successful with the distance as well.   I have always wanted a bonus option in the other games at the lower levels as well but that has never happened.  A long time ago I believe there were bonus options as I remember going for one with my Otis who never made it out of Novice but nothing in recent memory.  If people had the option at Novice/Open they may be more inclined to try them when the courses are less complex than at the Elite level.   I know that I for one would give it shot at all levels- maybe I would step over the line every time but my first thought would certainly be to give it a try.

Mary
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Edraith on January 31, 2017, 11:27:04 AM
Thanks for the sample course video! Looks fun.
I think ill pull xhp vt stuff to practice handling from outside in prep for hopefully the 5pt bonus lines which i hope will be an option for all levels :) i never tried it since i dont have gates and limited training time so was working on other things but should get us used to the patterning then!
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Jean Sather (McCreight) on January 31, 2017, 11:30:43 AM
Timing is good since our club's trial committee is meeting tomorrow.

Just curious about numbers of Hoopers classes that can be offered in a weekend (apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere, I'm trying to get caught up on a week's backlog of Forum posts and haven't looked at all of the new videos yet).

Our club has usually offered the maximum number of classes we can at trials.  In the past we have often included two rounds of Hoopers AND two rounds of X-Hoopers (and two rounds of Barrelers) in addition to all other classes usually offered.  (I might add that for us this has made the difference between running at a profit, or not .....  :) )

Question -- after this has been implemented in April, will the limit be two rounds of the "new" Hoopers for the weekend?

And second question, will it be offered as "2 runs on the same course" like the current Barrelers (and old X-Hoopers) runs?  Or two runs on different courses, like existing Numbered Hoopers (assuming we are not offering a BETA format trial).

Thanks,
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2017, 11:55:37 AM
Timing is good since our club's trial committee is meeting tomorrow.

Just curious about numbers of Hoopers classes that can be offered in a weekend (apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere, I'm trying to get caught up on a week's backlog of Forum posts and haven't looked at all of the new videos yet).

Our club has usually offered the maximum number of classes we can at trials.  In the past we have often included two rounds of Hoopers AND two rounds of X-Hoopers (and two rounds of Barrelers) in addition to all other classes usually offered.  (I might add that for us this has made the difference between running at a profit, or not .....  :) )

Question -- after this has been implemented in April, will the limit be two rounds of the "new" Hoopers for the weekend?

And second question, will it be offered as "2 runs on the same course" like the current Barrelers (and old X-Hoopers) runs?  Or two runs on different courses, like existing Numbered Hoopers (assuming we are not offering a BETA format trial).

Thanks,

For now we're going to limit it to 2 rounds.

With the exception of trials that already have their premiums out with X-Hoopers and Hoopers on the same weekend.  For those trials we're going to allow four rounds just as a by product of the rule change.

But any new premiums submitted will need to just have 2 rounds.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Lynn in VT on January 31, 2017, 12:07:14 PM
I'm mixed as to whether or not I like the change, but I do know one thing:  Given that I already have 18 gates I've been schlepping with all of my other equipment, I will still be using the original X-hoopers in my training sessions because I have found it to be very helpful in getting both dogs and handlers more accustomed to working at a distance, learning the handling required, and the CONFIDENCE that it builds between the dog and handler. 

As with the Mark buckets, I thank Sharon and NADAC for offering creative and great training tools!

Lynn
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Jean Sather (McCreight) on January 31, 2017, 12:19:16 PM
and part 2 of my question, Chris? (Thanks for answering the first part)

And second question, will it be offered as "2 runs on the same course" like the current Barrelers (and old X-Hoopers) runs?  Or two runs on different courses, like existing Numbered Hoopers (assuming we are not offering a BETA format trial).
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: MoabDiane on January 31, 2017, 01:08:53 PM
I liked x-hoopers; hoopers, not so much.  But I am fine with the change!  Imagine that.

And yes, I have a bunch of PVC gates that I'll probably never use.  Never bought extra x-pens and use them for all sorts of things, so no worries there.

What frustrated me about the going-away of EGC back when was all those points (OK, not as many as some, I'm sure...) that just counted for nothing except Lifetime Points (which ain't nuthin', I agree). They were at lower levels (novice and open), so no point in transferring (e.g., X-chances to chances).  Or Gaters points that just sit there.

That frustration vented - THANK YOU for combining hoopers and x-hoopers points!!!!

Now to just get more Barrelers offered!

diane

Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Tammy Lenski on January 31, 2017, 02:43:38 PM
Count me in among the bummed folks. Chris, your videos have been helpful for understanding what's going to change and I certainly understand that change is worth considering as one way to address low entry numbers.

I and my older agility dog LOVE x-hoopers, in part because it's the first place she learned to work comfortably away from me with distance -- and for me to learn I didn't have to be that close to her ;) .

As I work with my new girl, it's hard to imagine working that tight a circle from a distance without the initial support of the gates at the novice level. At more advanced levels it feels very doable for a dog that's built up to it. The gates give a newbie dog some clarity about options -- only 4 "exits" to choose from. My older girl first found speed and confidence with x-hoopers.

I'm one of those people who will deliberately seek out something that challenges me, as I did when I was intimidated by both x-hoopers and chances. Now, both are my favorite courses to run. So I will continue to run the new hoopers and be challenged in new ways, but I'm disappointed that for new dogs, the "support" offered by the gate circle will be gone. Maybe it was a crutch in some ways, but man, it was fun and less visually confusing for a newbie dog.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Anne Etherton on January 31, 2017, 03:26:01 PM
Where are the videos of the new hoopers courses?

Anne
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 31, 2017, 03:28:21 PM
Anne,

We did a video showing what the courses could look like, we haven't filmed any dogs running yet.
It can be found here:
nadac.com/RuleChanges.php (http://nadac.com/RuleChanges.php)

it's video #3
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Team Twodog on January 31, 2017, 09:20:53 PM
Here's another vote for providing scaled down bonus opportunities at the novice and open levels. That feature alone would make the new class interesting and unique. Since the circle is essentially a box, it seems appropriate to me to make this a course that you must handle from outside the box (at any level) to get the bonus.

One great advantage of losing the gates that I haven't seen mentioned is that these courses will be faster to build, which is always helpful.

Kim
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: danforth on January 31, 2017, 11:41:24 PM
I have been running X hoopers, completed Nov superior, and had already earned a few Q's at open level. I. would really like the opportunity to run the circle as if the gates were there.

I was. confused by the markers you mentioned in the video.  could you post that course with a line drawn to show just what the bonus line would be?

I really would like to have same line at open available.

Isabel

Sent from my KFASWI using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Rosemary on February 01, 2017, 04:26:19 AM
Thank you for the video. It makes things much easier to understand.  The way I understand it now is we are getting the best of both worlds. Hoopers points will now go to the all around NATCH. Yay. A line will be drawn for those who like the distance challenge AND they now can get extra points for it. For those that did not like the distance challenge that the gates imposed, they can enjoy running the course and earn a full 10 point Q. Sounds like a win for everyone. I'm excited to see how it plays out in practice.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: knittingdog on February 01, 2017, 06:48:27 AM

Just watched Video #3.  I LOVE it!  You've made it more challenging and maintained safety at the same time!

Excited to try it!

Robin
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 01, 2017, 09:01:18 AM
I have been running X hoopers, completed Nov superior, and had already earned a few Q's at open level. I. would really like the opportunity to run the circle as if the gates were there.

I was. confused by the markers you mentioned in the video.  could you post that course with a line drawn to show just what the bonus line would be?

I really would like to have same line at open available.

Isabel

Sent from my KFASWI using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.

At the beginning of the video where it showed the greyed out circle, that is where the markers would be placed.  To try and re-create that circle as best possible
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Heidi Konesko on February 01, 2017, 11:41:59 AM
This looks WAAAAAYYYY better than I was imagining.  Thank you for the further explanation and the video with the sample course.  I see now that it is going to open up more interesting possibilities for courses.
Onward and upward, I'm looking forward to tuning up our skills!
-Heidi with Penny and Jack in snowy icy NH   :) :D ;D
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Rebecca Kriz on February 01, 2017, 02:14:53 PM
I just saw that there's a poll up for opinions on the 'extra point' option.  My first reaction was 'Yes, my dog can do that!  Let's get some extra points,' but then I thought about it and does that amount of distance really merit 'bonus' points?  It made me wonder how many extra points we're talking, because I have the option to run an entire Elite Regular course from the 'distance challenge' for 5 extra points (if we don't earn 100+ dri scores).  Do I really want to receive 5 points for doing something that is closer in challenge to a Chances course?  (I'm just using 5 as an example and felt it was a likely number since NADAC typically gives us scores in increments of five.)  I hope I'm making some sense, but I'm thinking about how these extra points would relate to the bonus program.  It's really making me consider voting no, despite how much I'd like to get some extra points.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 01, 2017, 02:48:08 PM
I just saw that there's a poll up for opinions on the 'extra point' option.  My first reaction was 'Yes, my dog can do that!  Let's get some extra points,' but then I thought about it and does that amount of distance really merit 'bonus' points?  It made me wonder how many extra points we're talking, because I have the option to run an entire Elite Regular course from the 'distance challenge' for 5 extra points (if we don't earn 100+ dri scores).  Do I really want to receive 5 points for doing something that is closer in challenge to a Chances course?  (I'm just using 5 as an example and felt it was a likely number since NADAC typically gives us scores in increments of five.)  I hope I'm making some sense, but I'm thinking about how these extra points would relate to the bonus program.  It's really making me consider voting no, despite how much I'd like to get some extra points.

This would have nothing to do with the bonus program :)

We're not going to call them bonus points, probably just going to say 'extra'.   It won't have any special designation in the point records, other then being 15 instead of 10.  So won't total up to count for any awards that require Distance Challenges or Bonuses
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on February 01, 2017, 06:39:25 PM
While I won't likely run the course with the "extra" points, especially with my current dogs, I like the idea.  It satisfies everyone.  I admit, I am not a big fan of hoopers of any kind, so I am not likely to run this type of course often, but if people want to run it, then I see no downside to having it.  It is good for older dogs too. 

While I admit, the gates or pens help with the dogs path because they had nowhere else to go, I, myself, didn't like the gates because my little dog (all 11" of him) couldn't see me and therefore was not able to run it very well.  He ended up spinning cirlces in the middle and got very frustrated by it all.  He was far better with the gates because he could actually see me and my body.  However, I know people who didn't like the gates because their dogs didn't see them and ran into them.  So by removing both, you satisfy both groups of people.  Then by adding a line, you satisfy those who like to have the distance challenge.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: JimmyS. on February 01, 2017, 07:02:45 PM
and part 2 of my question, Chris? (Thanks for answering the first part)

And second question, will it be offered as "2 runs on the same course" like the current Barrelers (and old X-Hoopers) runs?  Or two runs on different courses, like existing Numbered Hoopers (assuming we are not offering a BETA format trial).
Jean,

yes it will be required to be Double Run Format just like the old X-Hoopers and Barrelers is. If more than one round is offered in a weekend, they must be together.

2 day weekend, 2 rounds is the max
3 day weekend, 3 is the max, etc etc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Sheila & the Shelties on February 01, 2017, 07:35:48 PM
Where is the poll mentioned in this thread?? I always go to The Forum first as I consider that the official place to get n information, but I don't see where this poll is located. I missed the last poll about x hoopers and whatever else it was about, and I would have liked to a participated in that. So where is this poll, and where will they be in the future? I am on Facebook, but with Facebook algorithm sometimes I don't receive all posts from a specific group or friend. So I am with Vicki Storrs and that I think we should designate where we go for official information or polls.

 Another thought I have had that has been expressed on here as well. I only saw extreme Hoopers showing up in my area in October or November 2016. And that's only because it was required for Champs. It sounds like perhaps the class didn't really get going in some areas.  Was it the amount of people entering compared to the numbers that would exist if people entered the Xtreme Hooperss classes that were offered? Or the numbers measured in comparison to what they were to other classes that are offered, such as jumpers?

Thank you for putting up with all our comments and questions. NADAC is still the best agility out there.

Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Marj Vincent on February 01, 2017, 08:45:27 PM
Here is the link for the Poll on extra points.

Nadac.com/Poll.html
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Team Twodog on February 02, 2017, 01:52:44 AM
This link should be clickable:

http://www.nadac.com/Poll.html (http://www.nadac.com/Poll.html)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2017, 05:35:43 AM
Where is the poll mentioned in this thread?? I always go to The Forum first as I consider that the official place to get n information, but I don't see where this poll is located. I missed the last poll about x hoopers and whatever else it was about, and I would have liked to a participated in that. So where is this poll, and where will they be in the future? I am on Facebook, but with Facebook algorithm sometimes I don't receive all posts from a specific group or friend. So I am with Vicki Storrs and that I think we should designate where we go for official information or polls.

 Another thought I have had that has been expressed on here as well. I only saw extreme Hoopers showing up in my area in October or November 2016. And that's only because it was required for Champs. It sounds like perhaps the class didn't really get going in some areas.  Was it the amount of people entering compared to the numbers that would exist if people entered the Xtreme Hooperss classes that were offered? Or the numbers measured in comparison to what they were to other classes that are offered, such as jumpers?

Thank you for putting up with all our comments and questions. NADAC is still the best agility out there.



There wasn't a poll for the original change.  That change was based on a couple years of feedback and data.   

Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Sara Langston on February 02, 2017, 06:34:42 AM
This link should be clickable:

http://www.nadac.com/Poll.html (http://www.nadac.com/Poll.html)

I have not seen anything on the Forum telling people about the Poll and where to go to see it.  Maybe I just missed it for some reason.  For future reference, how will we be notified that a Poll or something of that nature is out there for us to see???  I don't do Facebook and I don't check the NADAC website on a daily basis so would really like for the Forum to be the place for announcements like this.  Thanks, Marj and Team Twodog, for posting the link. 

Sara
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Edraith on February 02, 2017, 06:55:16 AM
The poll was mentioned in this thread earlier and in the third change video :)
Perhaps a solution can be to start a new thread for polls so it doesnt get burried in conversation?

I do use fb and their algorithm makes things i want to see hide so i understand missing it there! Facebook is nice...but heckufannoying lately with not showing me things from pages Im set to follow!

Edit to add: another suggestion forumwise - most forums Im on have subsection that is at the top for official announcements only, set up often so only moderator/admins can start threads. Perhaps this forum couod benifit from that style so threads like this dont get burried in General or folks who come here just for announcements can easily find them all together.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Heidi Konesko on February 02, 2017, 08:53:46 AM
Sounds like a good idea.
-Heidi in NH
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Vicki Storrs on February 02, 2017, 10:57:35 AM
TOTALLY understand and agree, Heidi.
Vicki Storrs
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Janice_Shavor on February 02, 2017, 01:15:31 PM
I had an initial post about combining the Hoopers and XHP classes.  I can see the the number of Qs over time is a big driver.  And I will admit, seeing somewhat green handlers trying to run XHP with dogs who just do not understand the circle made me cringe a  few times.  But if we get the option to run the circle with the distance restriction we had without X-pens or gates, that is going to be awesome!!  It doesn't do away with the need to train with X-pens or gates.  I was having some problems the first time I was working the X patterns.  Got so frustrated I took away the gates!  Then I realized the gates made the task easier for the dogs.  So, once I have beat this pesky little bug, out come the X-pens and we go to a new level of training.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2017, 09:19:51 PM
The poll was mentioned in this thread earlier and in the third change video :)
Perhaps a solution can be to start a new thread for polls so it doesnt get burried in conversation?

I do use fb and their algorithm makes things i want to see hide so i understand missing it there! Facebook is nice...but heckufannoying lately with not showing me things from pages Im set to follow!

Edit to add: another suggestion forumwise - most forums Im on have subsection that is at the top for official announcements only, set up often so only moderator/admins can start threads. Perhaps this forum couod benifit from that style so threads like this dont get burried in General or folks who come here just for announcements can easily find them all together.

I really like that idea!    Although I think we will implement it in a little different way.

We've mentioned in a few different videos and topics that we're trying to keep the forum as a good discussion area.  But we would like more of the day to day info to be retrieved from the nadac.com site.  Which is why this years top ten went directly to there, the rule changes page.

I think we will make a tab on the main website for announcements.  That way people can see it nice and easy :)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Marcy Matties on February 03, 2017, 03:02:54 AM
The poll was mentioned in this thread earlier and in the third change video :)
Perhaps a solution can be to start a new thread for polls so it doesnt get burried in conversation?

I do use fb and their algorithm makes things i want to see hide so i understand missing it there! Facebook is nice...but heckufannoying lately with not showing me things from pages Im set to follow!

Edit to add: another suggestion forumwise - most forums Im on have subsection that is at the top for official announcements only, set up often so only moderator/admins can start threads. Perhaps this forum couod benifit from that style so threads like this dont get burried in General or folks who come here just for announcements can easily find them all together.

I really like that idea!    Although I think we will implement it in a little different way.

We've mentioned in a few different videos and topics that we're trying to keep the forum as a good discussion area.  But we would like more of the day to day info to be retrieved from the nadac.com site.  Which is why this years top ten went directly to there, the rule changes page.

I think we will make a tab on the main website for announcements.  That way people can see it nice and easy :)


Could we also have a link at the top on this forum to the nada.com website?
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: RobertStewart on February 03, 2017, 04:02:42 AM
Can't say i'm sad to see it go. even though i haven't done much of X-hoopers i've seen far too many dogs face planting in the surrounding gates. I really thought it was very unsafe, but then my favorite version of hoopers was strategic hooopers, It's by far, to me at least, the most fun version. 
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Sara Langston on February 03, 2017, 06:17:09 AM
It's a great idea to have one place to post the important changes and announcements.  However, I would like to request that a post be put on the Forum when any of the changes or announcements are put on the website.  I don't think many people check the website on a regular basis, but they do check the Forum at least once a day.  Also, why is the Rule Change List Tab under Title and Awards and not under the Rules & FAQ section???  Just curious. 

Another thought, when any change or announcement is posted to the website, could the posting date be included.  I know the effective date of a change is on there, but it would also be nice to know the order of changes as they are posted.  Thanks.

Sara
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 03, 2017, 07:00:50 AM
It's a great idea to have one place to post the important changes and announcements.  However, I would like to request that a post be put on the Forum when any of the changes or announcements are put on the website.  I don't think many people check the website on a regular basis, but they do check the Forum at least once a day.  Also, why is the Rule Change List Tab under Title and Awards and not under the Rules & FAQ section???  Just curious. 

Another thought, when any change or announcement is posted to the website, could the posting date be included.  I know the effective date of a change is on there, but it would also be nice to know the order of changes as they are posted.  Thanks.

Sara

Can do :)

We just added a announcement tab to the website.  Just have to get the announcement page made.  Shouldn't take long :)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Edraith on February 03, 2017, 07:50:30 AM
Awesome! An announcement tab at the top here that takes to the same page as from main site sounds perfect, thanks! I like Saras idea of post date too to help make logica order sense of reading them.

Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Sara Langston on February 03, 2017, 02:03:54 PM
Chris, Thanks so much!!!!

Sara
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Sara Langston on February 03, 2017, 02:09:07 PM
Just checked out the Announcements Tab on the website and it is SUPER!!!!!  Again, thanks so much for doing this, Chris. 

Sara
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on February 03, 2017, 02:40:36 PM
Just checked out the Announcements Tab on the website and it is SUPER!!!!!  Again, thanks so much for doing this, Chris. 

Sara
LOVE  the announcement tab!  Thanks, Chris!
Linda
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Margaret MacEwen on February 03, 2017, 04:32:28 PM
I am SO, SO disappointed that X-Hoopers will be going away!  My favorite class EVER! Numbered Hoopers just happens to be my least favorite even though I mostly use hoops to train.   I was hoping that IF a change was going to happen it would be that the gates/pens go away, but that everything else would remain.  Now THAT would be a very cool handling challenge.  I feel that opportunities for those of us who still want a challenge, but are not ready for bonus boxes are going away.  I know I can run the Hoopers course anyway I want, but that is not the same thing. 

So...I am wondering if NADAC would consider a bonus option for Hoopers that would include a bonus line on the near side of the hoop circle?  I didn't take the time to read every post on the subject to see if that was considered. Also  I was really looking forward to the regular course going into a "real" hoop circle at Champs in 2017!!!  Darn, darn, darn.

I know it's not all about me, but I know there are many people like me that are in the "middle" (don't need to run next to our dog, but not ready for bonus boxes either). 

I don't envy the decisions you have to make, but I do need to share my disappointment.

Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Edraith on February 03, 2017, 08:58:01 PM
Margaret go watch video 3 in announcements tab. What you wish is already the popular answer. There is a poll out too right now for the bonus of doing from outside the circle. :)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: LyndaB on February 04, 2017, 06:26:03 AM
I just saw the announcements tab, and I think it's a great idea!  I had one question about the new change...

It says the classes will combine as of April 1.  We have 2 Funraisers scheduled in Vegas, one in late March and one in early April, with X-Hoopers on the premium.  Will the first have gates and the second not?  Or will there be no gates for either trial?  I'm asking because my pup freaks out about being behind an X-pen (I'm guessing something happened in his past before we rescued him), so I wasn't going to enter the class.  But if there won't be a physical circle, we'll probably try it again.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 04, 2017, 07:42:18 AM
We need to update the premium, but the march trial will have gates, April will not have the gates :)

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: LyndaB on February 04, 2017, 08:18:47 AM
Thanks!  We'll be sure and enter the hoopers in April!

-Lynda and Tycho
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: borgi on February 08, 2017, 05:45:38 AM
Question about level entry between now and April: We have a trial in 2 weeks that offers both Hoopers and XHoopers. I'm getting a lot of questions from competitors about what level they should enter.

Example:
Dog is in Elite Hoopers but only has 20 points (no basic title) in Open X-Hoopers.

Since the 2 classes will be combined, can this dog be entered in Elite X-Hoopers for our February trial or do they need their basic Open title to move up to Elite X-Hoopers?

I'd appreciate an answer to this question. I want to make sure I'm giving the right information to competitors.

Best,
Raimi (Artful Dodgers)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Marcy Matties on February 08, 2017, 06:55:03 AM
Question about level entry between now and April: We have a trial in 2 weeks that offers both Hoopers and XHoopers. I'm getting a lot of questions from competitors about what level they should enter.

Example:
Dog is in Elite Hoopers but only has 20 points (no basic title) in Open X-Hoopers.

Since the 2 classes will be combined, can this dog be entered in Elite X-Hoopers for our February trial or do they need their basic Open title to move up to Elite X-Hoopers?

I'd appreciate an answer to this question. I want to make sure I'm giving the right information to competitors.

Best,
Raimi (Artful Dodgers)

If I have read everything from Chris correctly, until April 1st (or until whatever trial you enter actually has the new version) everyone enters whatever level they would enter if this change were not going to take place.  So they would need to get that Open title before moving up.  After April 1st the system will automatically combine points between Hoopers and XHoopers.  And those points will stay within their level.  So all novice points will combine.  All open points will combine.  And all Elite points will combine.
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on February 08, 2017, 01:26:23 PM
Question about level entry between now and April: We have a trial in 2 weeks that offers both Hoopers and XHoopers. I'm getting a lot of questions from competitors about what level they should enter.

Example:
Dog is in Elite Hoopers but only has 20 points (no basic title) in Open X-Hoopers.

Since the 2 classes will be combined, can this dog be entered in Elite X-Hoopers for our February trial or do they need their basic Open title to move up to Elite X-Hoopers?

I'd appreciate an answer to this question. I want to make sure I'm giving the right information to competitors.

Best,
Raimi (Artful Dodgers)

Your example describes one of my dog's situation perfectly.  The only solution I can think of is to not enter X-Hoopers until the change is in effect.   I realize she could earn life time points but it seems rather pointless at this stage of the game.
Linda
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Amanda Nelson on February 08, 2017, 10:51:59 PM
Question about level entry between now and April: We have a trial in 2 weeks that offers both Hoopers and XHoopers. I'm getting a lot of questions from competitors about what level they should enter.

Example:
Dog is in Elite Hoopers but only has 20 points (no basic title) in Open X-Hoopers.

Since the 2 classes will be combined, can this dog be entered in Elite X-Hoopers for our February trial or do they need their basic Open title to move up to Elite X-Hoopers?

I'd appreciate an answer to this question. I want to make sure I'm giving the right information to competitors.

Best,
Raimi (Artful Dodgers)

If I have read everything from Chris correctly, until April 1st (or until whatever trial you enter actually has the new version) everyone enters whatever level they would enter if this change were not going to take place.  So they would need to get that Open title before moving up.  After April 1st the system will automatically combine points between Hoopers and XHoopers.  And those points will stay within their level.  So all novice points will combine.  All open points will combine.  And all Elite points will combine.

Marcy is spot on! :)
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Heidi Konesko on April 03, 2017, 02:08:50 PM
Yesterday I had my first Hoopers runs since the change was announced.  It was fun, and challenging.  Funnily enough, my dogs ran it pretty much exactly how they would have with the gates there.  I even had the same handling fumble I always got with the gates:  the switch with the dog on my right! 
It's brought the old Hoopers up a notch, too, having the distance challenge in there.  I look forward to seeing how it evolves over time!
I was hoping to celebrate a "personal Q" if Penny got the last two elite Q's that she needed for her triple superior extreme hoopers title, even if it was after the date and the title was imaginary.  True to form for me, we got 15 of those points.  So close!
Thanks NADAC,
-Heidi in snowy NH with Penny and Jack
Title: Re: Upcoming changes to Hoopers and X-hoopers
Post by: Edraith on April 09, 2017, 07:21:45 PM
I ran my first new hoopers courses - I never did get the gates purchased to do Xhoopers when it was released to VT last year so this was my first try on that course design. We just finished our superior novice hoopers and moved up to open.

The first two open hoopers I did were the "old" course design. These two were the "new" based on the xhooper pattern. It was very hard to not get confused and twisted around and lost, perhaps due to my dyslexia, as there is not the same flow of the course as there are on the "old" courses. The only reason we were successful was because my dog did a very rare "trot the course" which gave me extra seconds to think and cue and remember.

Anyway...just thought I'd give my two cents feedback. I find the course layout much less friendly. I understand it has the potential to morph and branch out now from the base shape, like Chris showed in one of the videos, and I hope that day comes sooner rather than later as that will I think help spread the course out and recreate the nice flow of the old hoopers, instead of being all this bunched-up repetitive layering.