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Past Championships discussions => 2017 General Championships Discussion => Topic started by: RebeccaU on June 22, 2017, 06:23:27 AM

Title: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: RebeccaU on June 22, 2017, 06:23:27 AM
I am a Champs newbie and I am confused by the time plus faults scoring at Champs.  Can you explain it for me please?  Specifically, if my pre-elite dog runs past an obstacle, do I turn him around and retry (adding time but maintaining the path of the course) or do I continue on and take the fault points?
Also, does the time plus faults scoring negate the qualifying requirement? (clean run under SCT?)
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: KarissaKS on June 22, 2017, 08:18:43 AM
You want to complete all obstacles at Champs because any missed obstacles net you 20 faults for failure to perform and add 20 seconds to your time for your score. In general it's going to be faster to bring your dog back to do the obstacle versus running past. Also, while NADAC allows training in the ring, Champs is not the place to do this. If your dog jumps off a contact just keep going. Don't go back and redo it because E's at Champs kill your score.

If you are running in Pre-Elite then you don't need to worry about the distance challenge, but one thing to consider for those in the Regular division is the following -- If your dog is struggling with the distance challenge and hasn't faulted yet (off course, etc.), it's often faster to cross the line and take the 5 faults versus wasting 10 seconds arguing with your dog and trying to get them to send out. Remember if you don't even attempt the distance challenge you get 10 faults. But again, if you think your dog will go off course or waste time, maybe those 10 faults are worth it to you.

Ultimately run to keep your dog happy. Don't worry about scoring, it will all wash out in the end.

Qualifying requirements are the same as a regular trial. Your dog must be clean and under SCT. For the Regular division this includes the distance challenge.
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: KarissaKS on June 22, 2017, 08:27:18 AM
One more point about the time plus faults scoring method -- A dog with faults CAN place above a dog with no faults. So there are situations where "clean" does not equal "best." A very fast dog can drop a bar and still make the top placements over a more steady dog with no faults. This is what differs from a regular trial where clean trumps all. It's always why at Champs you *just keep going* and never give up on a run.
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: RebeccaU on June 22, 2017, 08:38:33 AM
Thank-you for the explanation.  While I understand your first comments about bringing my dog back around, (I did not know that a time fault is added along with the 20 point off course so thanks)  I am struggling to see how a dog with faults can place over a fault free dog.  Can you show me some example math?  Maybe that would help me understand.
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on June 22, 2017, 09:22:16 AM
Let me see if I can give you an example.  The score for a given course is, say, 100 points.  Dog A runs the course,  drops a bar (-5) and has a time of 35.5 seconds.
You would take the course time 100 and subtract the 5 faults AND the time 35.5.  That dog's score would be 59.5   Dog B runs clean but it's time is 42.6.  Course time of 100 minus 42.6.  This dog's score would be 57.4 which is lower than Dog A and thus a low placement.  Right, Chris?
Linda
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Rosemary on June 22, 2017, 09:38:57 AM
Dogs need to qualify in open chances for regular champs.  Does this mean the distance challenges will be at the open level or will they be like an elite chances course? 

Rosemary
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Marcy Matties on June 22, 2017, 01:30:09 PM
Thank-you for the explanation.  While I understand your first comments about bringing my dog back around, (I did not know that a time fault is added along with the 20 point off course so thanks)  I am struggling to see how a dog with faults can place over a fault free dog.  Can you show me some example math?  Maybe that would help me understand.

I would defer to clarification from Chris, but I do not believe that there is both a 20 point off course AND a 20 point time fault.  I think it's just the 20 for failure to perform.  At least that's what I've thought the 3 times that I've been to Champs.  But I know my momma used to say that one day I would be wrong about something ...  ;D
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: KarissaKS on June 22, 2017, 04:01:14 PM
Correct, you don't get doubly penalized -- those 20 faults just "translate" into 20 seconds. So if it's going to take you more than 20 seconds to fix something (maybe your dog super struggles with weaves) then sure, go on -- But I can't think of too many scenarios where you would expect it to take longer than 20 seconds to redo an obstacle. Another BUT, you need to know your dog. In 2011 Secret was at her first Champs in Springfield as a 2 year old baby dog. While she did awesome and even placed 3rd in Round 3, by Round 6 her baby brain was starting to fry so when she missed a weave pole I elected to just keep going and not redo them -- she wasn't in contention for making finals anyhow, so I opted to keep her happy. Same thing in 2015, crazy Kizzy was never going to make finals so I skipped stuff that she found too mentally challenging in that environment. Other years/dogs I fix stuff because they were silly mistakes and I knew the dog did have a chance at finals so I wanted to get the best score possible each round.

Every year I blow the first round without fail. In 2015 Kaiser had 30 faults and Secret had 20 (off courses for both). We pushed hard to make that up in the other rounds and both dogs squeaked into finals. The faster your dog, the more faults you can get away with -- but in general, you want clean runs!  :)
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Vicki Storrs on June 22, 2017, 08:02:01 PM
Okay I am TERRIBLE at knowing what the faults/deductions are!  But I had it in my head that doing something like, for instance, going around an obstacle (say a hoop or jump) and just continuing on the course at Champs got you two mark downs....20 points for failure to complete and 10 more points for Wrong course... 
I know Dega did that in 2015, came off a curve going to a hoop and then a tunnel.  He had a head of steam, went wide and missed the hoop but raced on in to the tunnel.  I did NOT bring him back to the hoop--partly because it would have been hard to get him stopped but mostly because he thought he was correct and I didn't want to alter that, even at Champs. 
Maybe somebody can tell me if that's correct as far as penalties?
And I guess the next question would be, what would the penalties be if I had brought him back to do the original hoop After he took the tunnel?  If he came back to the hoop and completed the course in order then would it be Just 10 points for wrong course (at that initial tunnel)?
Vicki
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 24, 2017, 09:52:43 PM
Okay I am TERRIBLE at knowing what the faults/deductions are!  But I had it in my head that doing something like, for instance, going around an obstacle (say a hoop or jump) and just continuing on the course at Champs got you two mark downs....20 points for failure to complete and 10 more points for Wrong course... 
I know Dega did that in 2015, came off a curve going to a hoop and then a tunnel.  He had a head of steam, went wide and missed the hoop but raced on in to the tunnel.  I did NOT bring him back to the hoop--partly because it would have been hard to get him stopped but mostly because he thought he was correct and I didn't want to alter that, even at Champs. 
Maybe somebody can tell me if that's correct as far as penalties?
And I guess the next question would be, what would the penalties be if I had brought him back to do the original hoop After he took the tunnel?  If he came back to the hoop and completed the course in order then would it be Just 10 points for wrong course (at that initial tunnel)?
Vicki

Hey Vicki,
The faults have evolved a bit over the past couple years.

If you have 3 jumps in a row.

You do #1
Run around #2
Do #3 and continue on with the course = 20 faults for missed obstacle

Do #1
Run around #2
Do 3# and then bring them back to 'fix' #2 and then continue on = 10 faults for off course

Do #1
Run around #2
Stop them before they take #3, fix #2, continue on = no faults, just a waste of time

The way you explained was an older way of faulting the first scenario.
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Vicki Storrs on June 25, 2017, 05:01:48 AM
Thank you Chris!! I appreciate the information...and the clarity!!!
Vicki
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: MoabDiane on June 25, 2017, 02:35:07 PM
So - this scenario happened to me a number of years ago at Champs.  Is it the "old" way of counting faults, and what would it be now?

Dog missed a hoop.  I didn't see it (he was a blur!), so didn't even think about fixing it.

It happened to be on a distance challenge, which was 5 faults.

He got 20 faults for missed obstacle, 10 faults for off course, and 5 faults for the distance miss.
I admit - 35 faults for a missed hoop really kinda surprised/galled me at the time.
Of course, I've gotten over it!  LOL!!!

Just curious.
diane
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Vicki Storrs on June 25, 2017, 07:57:35 PM
Mine was the same from two years ago except without the distance challenge. And by what Chris wrote below, yours would Now be 25 points (failure to perform and distance).  That's assuming the distance challenge was simply failed because you tried, then Stepped in to help.  Not sure if you believe the 5 points is also tied into missing the hoop? That you successfully handled from behind the line but got distance points docked because of missing the hoop? 
I am hoping by this conversation I will improve my choices this year at Champs...but suspect when I'm actually on course that the knowledge will all fly right out of my head!!
Vicki
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: MoabDiane on June 26, 2017, 08:24:46 AM
I did not see the dog miss the hoop, hence no attempt to go back and "fix" it.  Which I may or may not have been able to do anyway!  He was likely into or onto the next obstacle too fast.

Just curious about the 20 vs. 30 faults.  I don't really keep track at regular trials - if we NQ, we NQ and it doesn't matter to me how many faults we have!  But at Champs....yeah, it does.

diane
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on June 26, 2017, 10:13:17 AM
You know, it might be nice to see exactly how the scoring will be done THIS year.  Chris?  Just a thought.
Linda
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Sharon Nelson on June 26, 2017, 10:20:22 AM
I did not see the dog miss the hoop, hence no attempt to go back and "fix" it.  Which I may or may not have been able to do anyway!  He was likely into or onto the next obstacle too fast.

Just curious about the 20 vs. 30 faults.  I don't really keep track at regular trials - if we NQ, we NQ and it doesn't matter to me how many faults we have!  But at Champs....yeah, it does.

diane

There is no longer the 30 fault scenario.  At the champs or the weekend trial.  It is either a Failure to Perform or Off Course, depending upon whether you fixed it or not.

Sharon
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: danforth on June 26, 2017, 10:35:20 AM
Distance challenge scoring.

This is my understanding.  Is it correct?

If we accept a distance challenge and succeed, we get 10 points added to final score.

If we start the challenge, but have to step in to save the course (no faults) we get 5 points added.

Faults incurred during the challenge count like any other faults.

If we ignore the distance challenge, is there a penalty?

And what else counts in scoring?

Isabel

Sent from my KFASWI using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: KarissaKS on June 26, 2017, 11:47:42 AM
In the Regular division (not Stakes, which is its own world, and not Pre-Elite, which doesn't have a distance component) -- The distance component is expected, it's not a "bonus." If your dog successfully completes the obstacles behind the line then you incur 0 faults. If your dog sends out but then comes back into you and you have to cross the line to get him back out then you incur 5 faults for crossing the line. If you ignore the line entirely, do not attempt the distance component, and just continue to run next to your dog then you incur 10 faults.

The other scenario to consider is that your dog takes an off course obstacle during the distance component, which earns them a 10 point fault. If you can get them back on track without going over the line you won't incur additional faults. If you must cross the line to get them back on track then you will now have an additional 5 faults. This creates what might be the single scenario where one could justify not even attempting the distance line, if you feel your dog will surely go off course and waste time, then maybe the 10 faults are worth it to you. I guess contacts would fall into this as well -- if your dog jumps contacts with you not right there then that's 20 faults, so again, 10 would be "better."

All of this talk, though, and really all everyone should be worrying about is running clean. Ultimately those who win Champs tend do so with clean rounds, though very fast dogs can certainly make up small errors like a dropped bar. If you aren't worried about winning then just go and do the best you can do and not worry so much about cumulative scoring. You can still place in individual classes even after you've bombed a different run.

I do wish that NADAC handed out "clean run" or "Q" ribbons (since they do count towards qualifying) at Champs. It would at least give people something to take home with them if they didn't earn any placements over the four days. Secret made finals in 2015 with 7 clean runs and brought home diddly squat because she was never in the top 8 of her 16" class. Ribbons for the finalists would be another special bonus.
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Sharon Nelson on June 26, 2017, 11:54:45 AM
Distance challenge scoring.

This is my understanding.  Is it correct?

If we accept a distance challenge and succeed, we get 10 points added to final score.

If we start the challenge, but have to step in to save the course (no faults) we get 5 points added.

Faults incurred during the challenge count like any other faults.

If we ignore the distance challenge, is there a penalty?

And what else counts in scoring?

Isabel

Sent from my KFASWI using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.

If you make no attempt at the distance, it is 10 faults.  If you make an attempt and need to cross the line to help your dog it is five faults.  There are no "extra" points if you succeed.

Sharon
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: danforth on June 26, 2017, 01:18:47 PM
Thanks.

Sent from my KFASWI using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 26, 2017, 02:59:53 PM
So - this scenario happened to me a number of years ago at Champs.  Is it the "old" way of counting faults, and what would it be now?

Dog missed a hoop.  I didn't see it (he was a blur!), so didn't even think about fixing it.

It happened to be on a distance challenge, which was 5 faults.

He got 20 faults for missed obstacle, 10 faults for off course, and 5 faults for the distance miss.
I admit - 35 faults for a missed hoop really kinda surprised/galled me at the time.
Of course, I've gotten over it!  LOL!!!

Just curious.
diane

Old version.

For the past two years we have only faulted that scenario as 20 faults for the missed hoop, 5 for failing the distance test.
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 26, 2017, 03:01:17 PM
I do wish that NADAC handed out "clean run" or "Q" ribbons (since they do count towards qualifying) at Champs. It would at least give people something to take home with them if they didn't earn any placements over the four days. Secret made finals in 2015 with 7 clean runs and brought home diddly squat because she was never in the top 8 of her 16" class. Ribbons for the finalists would be another special bonus.

Already on my to-do list :)
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: RebeccaU on June 26, 2017, 06:42:25 PM
In the Regular division (not Stakes, which is its own world, and not Pre-Elite, which doesn't have a distance component) -- The distance component is expected, it's not a "bonus." If your dog successfully completes the obstacles behind the line then you incur 0 faults. If your dog sends out but then comes back into you and you have to cross the line to get him back out then you incur 5 faults for crossing the line. If you ignore the line entirely, do not attempt the distance component, and just continue to run next to your dog then you incur 10 faults.

The other scenario to consider is that your dog takes an off course obstacle during the distance component, which earns them a 10 point fault. If you can get them back on track without going over the line you won't incur additional faults. If you must cross the line to get them back on track then you will now have an additional 5 faults. This creates what might be the single scenario where one could justify not even attempting the distance line, if you feel your dog will surely go off course and waste time, then maybe the 10 faults are worth it to you. I guess contacts would fall into this as well -- if your dog jumps contacts with you not right there then that's 20 faults, so again, 10 would be "better."

All of this talk, though, and really all everyone should be worrying about is running clean. Ultimately those who win Champs tend do so with clean rounds, though very fast dogs can certainly make up small errors like a dropped bar. If you aren't worried about winning then just go and do the best you can do and not worry so much about cumulative scoring. You can still place in individual classes even after you've bombed a different run.

I do wish that NADAC handed out "clean run" or "Q" ribbons (since they do count towards qualifying) at Champs. It would at least give people something to take home with them if they didn't earn any placements over the four days. Secret made finals in 2015 with 7 clean runs and brought home diddly squat because she was never in the top 8 of her 16" class. Ribbons for the finalists would be another special bonus.
Oh I second the request for a Q ribbon!  I didn't realize they were not given out.  I too am in the highly competitive 16" group and would love an acknowledgement of my success at champs even if I don't place in the top 8.  It doesn't have to be a big fancy ribbon, just the plain flat one that says I was there and had a clean run.


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Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: judy.whitbred on June 28, 2017, 05:06:08 AM
Chris,

In the second example you set out, after you go back and complete obstacle two would you then skip obstacle three (since you already did that one) and move on to obstacle four. 

If you did obstacle three again, would you be penalized as an off course for taking that obstacle again?  Just want to be sure what to do not to get anymore faults than necessary.


Quote
Do #1
Run around #2
Do 3# and then bring them back to 'fix' #2 and then continue on = 10 faults for off course

Judy Whitbred
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 28, 2017, 06:49:40 AM
Chris,

In the second example you set out, after you go back and complete obstacle two would you then skip obstacle three (since you already did that one) and move on to obstacle four. 

If you did obstacle three again, would you be penalized as an off course for taking that obstacle again?  Just want to be sure what to do not to get anymore faults than necessary.


Quote
Do #1
Run around #2
Do 3# and then bring them back to 'fix' #2 and then continue on = 10 faults for off course

Judy Whitbred

Nope you won't get faulted again.
You were faulted for the off course #3, but since you came back to fix #2 you didn't skip any obstacles so no more faults.

The #2 jump is still the next correct obstacle in the sequence.

Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: danforth on June 28, 2017, 07:07:16 AM
So after you go back and do number 2, do you then do number 3 again or skip it and go onto number 4.   I know that there was a 10 point fault for taking number 3 in the first place.

Isabel
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: MoabDiane on June 28, 2017, 07:50:53 AM
The easiest way I can think of to explain this is what I learned long ago:

"You are OFF course (one off-course fault), until you are back ON course."

So, once you take one off-course obstacle, it doesn't matter (fault-wise, just time-wise) how many more you take to get back on course.

diane
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Marcy Matties on June 28, 2017, 08:23:50 AM
So after you go back and do number 2, do you then do number 3 again or skip it and go onto number 4.   I know that there was a 10 point fault for taking number 3 in the first place.

Isabel

Yes.  Fix #2 and then do #3.  Do not skip it because it is the CORRECT obstacle after #2.
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: danforth on June 28, 2017, 10:19:49 AM
Thanks.  That is what I thought, but wanted to verify.   The 10 point fault is for doing 3 as an 'off course".

Isabel
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: DebbieP on June 30, 2017, 10:30:57 AM
Hopefully this won't happen, but if it does: if dog misses #2 and goes to #3 and #4, can you then go back to #2 for a redo (from #2 onward) and only incur 1 off-course fault?

--Debbie P, Louisville
Title: Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 30, 2017, 10:38:54 AM
Hopefully this won't happen, but if it does: if dog misses #2 and goes to #3 and #4, can you then go back to #2 for a redo (from #2 onward) and only incur 1 off-course fault?

--Debbie P, Louisville

If it was the dog running to #3 and #4 then no extra faults would be counted.  When you go off course you're considered off course still until the correct obstacle is taken.   In this case #2.

Now if you intentionally kept running, and then for some unknown reason decided to come back to #2 it would be a different story.   But zoomies won't cost you extra :)

If I understand the question correctly