NADAC Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kathy Upton on August 23, 2017, 10:15:35 PM

Title: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Kathy Upton on August 23, 2017, 10:15:35 PM
Is it reasonable that a NADAC competitor at a trial who earns a major award such as a NATCH or V-NATCH assume that the hosting organization would provide a ribbon or pole for that major achievement? Or is providing title ribbons and NATCH ribbons an option for organizations hosting NADAC trials? Does anyone else feel that if the no title ribbons are going to be handed out, that it should be clearly stated in the trial premium so competitors would know in advance?
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: dogrsqr on August 24, 2017, 05:24:00 AM
Kathy,

Most clubs do have ribbons and/or bars for a NATCH or VersNATCH, but they are not required.  Typically fundraisers do not have them because they are fundraisers.

I personally don't believe it should state that in the premium, there's enough stuff there already that people don't read.  If you're expecting to earn a NATCH or VersNATCH you can always ask the club before entering.  If a club does hand out bars and/or ribbons it's nice to let them know ahead of time that you might be earning one so that they have enough in stock.

Gina Pizzo

Is it reasonable that a NADAC competitor at a trial who earns a major award such as a NATCH or V-NATCH assume that the hosting organization would provide a ribbon or pole for that major achievement? Or is providing title ribbons and NATCH ribbons an option for organizations hosting NADAC trials? Does anyone else feel that if the no title ribbons are going to be handed out, that it should be clearly stated in the trial premium so competitors would know in advance?
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on August 24, 2017, 05:35:36 AM
As Gina said, although it is not required, I think it pretty much expected by most competitors.  I have only been disappointed once having earned a NATCH at a trial and there was no ribbon or bar.  Our club always has ribbons on hand!
Linda
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: knittingdog on August 24, 2017, 06:36:54 AM

I know some people who have made their own bars when one wasn't handed out.  Kinda fun since you can tailor it to be however you want and bring it to the next trial for signatures!  I have seen some really nice ones!

Robin & Surge
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Rosemary on August 24, 2017, 07:30:22 AM
I do think it should be in the premium.  I do make the effort to read the premium - especially if I am competing with a club that is new to me.  I know that ribbons are not the goal, but for all the effort it takes to earn a NATCH I would be pretty disappointed to not get the big ribbon.  Having said that, as I get closer to that holy grail I do check with host clubs to see if the ribbon and/or bar is awarded.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Rena Bonem on August 24, 2017, 09:53:53 AM
Waco Agility Group has always done bars and ribbons, but it is REALLY helpful if you can let the trial secretary know ahead of time if you may earn a NATCH.  It used to be rare for people to earn NATCH's at our trials.  Now with virtual trials, we have had 4-6 a trial or perhaps one.  To help us prepare, I always appreciate knowing that someone might be up for a NATCH, otherwise we might not have enough bars or ribbons because bars can be damaged when stored.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: KathieT on August 24, 2017, 06:54:57 PM
I made my NATCH bar from a jump bar.  I had people sign it and then I decorated it when I got home.  It means every bit as much to me as the V-NATCH bar that was made ahead of time and presented at a trial. 

Kathie
Title: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: agilityjunkie on August 25, 2017, 05:30:25 PM
One should never assume. Large ribbons can cost anywhere from $15 to $50 dollars or more. Bars can be the equivalent. As trials struggle for entries that expense can be out of reach. Most clubs try to have special awards for these awards but to expect a GIFT is pretentious. Attending an Agility trial is a privilege. Most clubs are non-profit and the majority of work is done by volunteers, not customers. There are no customers in our game, somewhere along the line, people have forgotten that.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on August 28, 2017, 05:45:25 PM
I appreciate knowing they are offered in the premium as well, and I always let the trial secretary know in advance. When I provided the NATCH bars and ribbons for the FunRaisers, of course money is limited on my end, so I always appreciated knowing in advance of a few months if people might be up for one, so I could order enough.  One trial we had 8 or 9 NATCHs and I was getting very nervous because I've never seen that many at a trial and didn't plan on that many.  I know it's not required of trials to offer them, but given how big a championship is, people should be able to celebrate with some swag.  If I knew a trial didn't offer one (Calera, Des Moines), I would buy one for my dog ahead of time and a bar.  I would have rather had the stuff and not been successful, than been successful and not had anything to celebrate that achievement.  If I missed it, I'd save it for another trial that might not offer it if we were up again.  I know not everyone can afford them given some low entries. So, having that mentioned in the premium always helped me, but I still contacted the trial secretary to find out for sure.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Rosemary on August 29, 2017, 05:49:32 AM
One should never assume. Large ribbons can cost anywhere from $15 to $50 dollars or more. Bars can be the equivalent. As trials struggle for entries that expense can be out of reach. Most clubs try to have special awards for these awards but to expect a GIFT is pretentious. Attending an Agility trial is a privilege. Most clubs are non-profit and the majority of work is done by volunteers, not customers. There are no customers in our game, somewhere along the line, people have forgotten that.

I think it is unfair to call someone pretentious for wanting something to show for a major accomplishment.  The ribbons and bars may cost some money, but so do all the entries required to get to a NATCH.  By the time a dog earns a NATCH, his team has spent a great deal of time not to mention well over $1000.00 in entry fees to get to that point.  That doesn't even take all the non qualifying runs into account.  That is a great deal of support for that club.  Perhaps your entries are low because you feel that you are bestowing a privilege to your entrants and not appreciating that they are helping to support your club.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Edraith on August 29, 2017, 02:19:52 PM
I would want ribbons. It's a sign of achievement together with my dog :) I dont think it's pretensious to think there are ribbons. You pay $12-$15 for an entry fee, so basically if you got a basic title at the show, that's three runs so that's $36-$45, multiply as needed for major accomplishments like NATCH!

I often compare things to rabbit shows since that's the world I am used to. Our club it is $3/rabbit entry fee. Judge's fee (beyond transport and lodging) is $1/rabbit judged. So we have $2 per rabbit to pay for their lodging, travel, supplies, building rental, and awards. Yet we always have awards. Youth get 1st-3rd ribbons, open (18+) doesn't always get placement ribbons but the major awards (equivalent to a title in the dog world) are usually rossettes, if not trophies and awards like totes or show aprons embroidered with the date and title, or a carry cage with a plaque. Ribbons and awards and ring rental isn't less for us than ya'all, so the only difference is perhaps what judge fee is. Yet we manage it...at every rabbit show I've ever been at in 20 years across eight states, with less income :) Money can be a funny subject I know, I just feel like if we can do it with so much less income then it oughta be possible! :)
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: agilityjunkie on August 29, 2017, 03:43:07 PM
Any club that holds a trial so that we can play Agility is bestowing a privilege to its entrants. Imagine if the people who worked so hard and were berated for not providing enough extras  and large enough ribbons for every personal goal just stopped holding them? The goal to NATCH is a personal one, spending the money is a choice we make. No one owes us the "big ribbon." Forgetting to be grateful is pretentious.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: A Jussero on August 29, 2017, 05:18:42 PM
There will never be a NATCH for us, but I usually won't take any ribbons at all unless we get a Superior in something.  But I did get one very special ribbon at YDS that will always symbolize the NADAC experience for us.   As I cut back with my old man, Spike, a very special High in Trial fancy ribbon was awarded to him and it hangs proudly as a reminder of what we did accomplish and most importantly, the joy we had along the way.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Rosemary on August 29, 2017, 06:41:36 PM
Any club that holds a trial so that we can play Agility is bestowing a privilege to its entrants. Imagine if the people who worked so hard and were berated for not providing enough extras  and large enough ribbons for every personal goal just stopped holding them? The goal to NATCH is a personal one, spending the money is a choice we make. No one owes us the "big ribbon." Forgetting to be grateful is pretentious.
i
I am a club member and a volunteer who works hard to put on trials. I do it because I enjoy it. I do not ever feel as though I am bestowing a privilege upon anyone. The privilege is mine when I get to see teams improve and achieve goals. I know how hard they work to get there and it makes me so happy to see them get that big ribbon that has been hanging there waiting for them. And I am grateful that they continue to enter so we can have our trials and play with our dogs.   
Title: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: agilityjunkie on August 29, 2017, 06:51:03 PM
But Rosemary, if you do all that you say, then you do bestow the privilege of playing a game with your hard work and you deserve to be respected for that. Some clubs can't afford to provide more than the fun.  NADAC only requires that they provide placement and qualifying ribbons. By suggesting that they post in the premium whether they give away special awards is to suggest that they notify exhibitors that they are not worth the trouble of attending. As a grateful, hardworking member you know that people should be grateful that a bunch of people got together to make agility available to us not just shower us with extra gifts. Not saying it isn't nice to have, just saying they aren't less and making it a need to have. We're privileged, just to be able to step to the line with our dogs,right?
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: dogrsqr on August 30, 2017, 05:52:53 AM
When people start talking about their entry fees I typically feel the need to explain all that those entry fees pay for.

Equipment wear and tear/ replacement
Equipment storage fees
Equipment hauling/trailer
Insurance
Ribbons
Site rental fees
porta potties
Judges flight
Judges hotel
Judges meals
Judging fees
Judges gift
NADAC fees
Worker vouchers/raffle whatever you do for workers
Hospitality/snacks/worker lunches
And I'm sure there's other things I'm forgetting right now.

We try to keep our entry fees as low as possible.  We have a sliding scale depending on number of runs entered which ranges from $12/run to $10/run.  We do offer bars and ribbons but I can see that some clubs may not be able to swing that. 

I don't take any placement ribbons and haven't for years. 

And while it might cost a lot of money to earn a NATCH, that doesn't mean you spent all that money with one club.

Gina


Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on August 30, 2017, 07:21:32 AM
When people start talking about their entry fees I typically feel the need to explain all that those entry fees pay for.

Equipment wear and tear/ replacement
Equipment storage fees
Equipment hauling/trailer
Insurance
Ribbons
Site rental fees
porta potties
Judges flight
Judges hotel
Judges meals
Judging fees
Judges gift
NADAC fees
Worker vouchers/raffle whatever you do for workers
Hospitality/snacks/worker lunches
And I'm sure there's other things I'm forgetting right now.

We try to keep our entry fees as low as possible.  We have a sliding scale depending on number of runs entered which ranges from $12/run to $10/run.  We do offer bars and ribbons but I can see that some clubs may not be able to swing that. 

I don't take any placement ribbons and haven't for years. 

And while it might cost a lot of money to earn a NATCH, that doesn't mean you spent all that money with one club.

Gina

I totally get this Gina.  It does cost a lot to put on a trial.  In our area, if you get a  NATCH, you are basically getting it by running with a few clubs so in our case, "yes" we are spending the majority of it with the club that we get the NATCH with.  If I am up for a big award, I will try to plan it with a club that I have done a lot of trialing with and that I know has the bars or ribbons, or leashes (super cool ones for a NATCH!).  Fortunately, the clubs around here all do have at least nice ribbons for NATCH's.  If I know they don't have bars, I will make my own or just do without.   If I know that a club doesn't offer a bar or ribbon, I will hold off on running that event until a trial that I knows offers it.  Like I said, around here, all the clubs offer nice things for the big awards, so I don't really have to worry about it. 
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Rosemary on August 30, 2017, 09:14:15 AM
I am well aware of the cost involved in running a trial.  What I was attempting to point out is that in many cases, exhibitors run with the same clubs.  Over time, they spend a lot of money, time, effort and often volunteer at the trials.  People see photos of people with their dogs and the big ribbons all the time.  A NATCH is a huge accomplishment and one to be celebrated. 

Playing agility with our dog is a wonderful thing.  That is the most important thing to keep in mind.  However, as one gets close to a big milestone like a NATCH - especially a first time - the big ribbon can be very important.   It is only fair to put in the premium that a particular club does not offer the ribbon or bar.  Most clubs do offer them, and it would be a shame for someone to be disappointed.   I would rather have the opportunity to make the decision to run elsewhere, not run whatever class is needed for the title or simply enter as normal and it being no big deal.  To not be forthcoming in the premium just to get entries is unkind.  By saying that you don't want it in the premium because you may not get an entry sounds kind of off to me. 

I am guessing that this thread began because someone earned a NATCH and found out after the fact that the particular club they were running with did not offer a NATCH ribbon and was pretty disappointed.  I have not yet gotten that far with any of my dogs, but we are close.  Call me shallow, but when or if I do ever get a NATCH I have a spot all picked out to display the ribbon with pride so anyone who comes to my house will see it.  I will be sure to double check with any clubs to make sure it is an option when I get close.  If it's not then I likely will enter because I love to play with my dogs.  I just won't enter the runs to put me over the goal line.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: dogrsqr on August 30, 2017, 09:28:54 AM
I guess that's why I don't get it.  My NATCH bars are sitting in the corner of the house .... somewhere.  I would personally rather have the $20 and celebrate with a couple of cocktails.   :)

I'm not calling anyone shallow but it also seems a little off asking a club to put in their premium that they DON'T offer something.  Just ask if it's important to you.  I'm sure the trial secretary will be happy to answer. 

Gina
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Rosemary on August 30, 2017, 10:07:34 AM
Wee I am glad we were able to have this conversation.  I think a lot was brought up and people have a better understanding of expectations - on both sides of the discussion.   
I look forward to meeting you at a trial some day.   :)
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: agilityaddict2 on August 30, 2017, 11:55:20 AM
I don't consider running agility at a particular site with a particular club a "priveldge".(except the priveldge my dog is bestowing upon me} I pay what they ask me to pay and I volunteer all day long. I also have usually  traveled 3-5 hrs to get there and paid for 2 nights in a hotel. I never take ribbons, even title ones, but when i earn my Natch,which will probably be at the next trial i attend, I want something to show for it. And no, I dont think that is pretentious. I know the clubs I support all give a bar or something so no problem for me. I hope I never have to run at a trial that thinks it is a privelege. The privelege is having the participants that not only pay to run but are willing to  volunteer all day long.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Lin Battaglia on August 30, 2017, 04:20:35 PM
I am remembering the old days when one person would bring their A-Frame, another bring a couple of tunnels, another brought their jumps etc etc. We would all meet up and we worked hard just so we could play the sport. After 30+ years doing agility, I have seen people want more and more and work less and less. I haven't taken ribbons in years and years. I have trunks and trunks of them. I do take NATCH ribbons and any other high specialty award or ribbon but none others. I realize ribbons are important to new people and that's ok. Congratulations on their accomplishments. Would you stay away because there were no ribbons ? Or would you come for the fun with your dog ? Just remember it's the dog you miss not the awards and ribbons when they are gone.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Edraith on August 30, 2017, 06:57:36 PM
If you go down the road of its just about the dog, there wouldnt be any trials at all. 

Like it or not, if ya love trialing, there *is* a competition component, and with competition, comes recognition of success. Without the recognition of success, there isn't the point in competing. So be honest with yourself.

Otherwise, if it were truly just about the dog, or just about the people, folk would be happy to just play with their dog in their own yard or training space, and have potlucks with friends.

It isn't a bad thing to enjoy the competition aspect. I find most people who compete a lot and then say "Oh it's just about the dog!" are in some form of self-denial that they actually enjoy the competition component. Recognize it isn't just about the dog, but you too, and the enjoyment you get from competing. And THAT IS OKAY. Embrace it. It's not an either-or thing. It can be fun for your dog, and you too, for a whole host of varying reasons - and THAT IS OKAY! And realize most people who enjoy competing want the achievement recognized in some form (or what was the point of competing?), and standard form is ribbons/awards. If what is the Status Quo of standard for ribbons/awards isn't provided, it will create some bad feelings. Think of it in terms of positive reinforcement. If your dog was trying so hard for something, finally got it, but instead of a special reward (say status quo for a party is vienna sausage) for job well done, they got nothing. We'd never do that to our dogs. Of course we have higher reasoning skills, but it still doesn't "feel good".
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Foomin Z on September 01, 2017, 12:53:49 PM
At one club I have been to, they offer title ribbons for a fee. They also charge a fee per day if you don't volunteer to work. The economy is tight in some places.

At another club, for finishing a title, I got a voucher for a free run for a future trial along with the title ribbon. Just the voucher would have been great. Not having to pay for a run is awesome.

Rather than using negative language in a premium to say a club does not offer title ribbons or other awards, I have seen them list what awards they do offer (placement, Q). If they don't list that title ribbons are offered, I know they are not offered.

Seeing a spot on the premium entry form for "Do you expect to finish a title at this trial" and a checkbox is a good way to let the club know to stock up on more champ ribbons ahead of time.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Lin Battaglia on September 01, 2017, 02:08:06 PM
Thank you Gina and Audri and others for pointing some of those trial fees. There can be more depending on where you are, inside or out too. And more if you are a business and not a nonprofit club. It makes no sense to me when people will drive three hours away from home (gas) to run in a trial with $10-12 run fees, stay in a hotel, and eat meals out rather than stay at home and pay $14 a run and sleep in their own bed and be inside ? And what did it cost the clubs to put on all those trials so people had a chance to get points for that NATCH ? I agree you should get ribbons but within reason. Competition is good. Accomplishments are good. 
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on September 01, 2017, 05:23:14 PM
Regarding the point that people shouldn't expect to receive ribbons, etc, and do it only for fun... for many, the ribbons are a symbol of that incredible team you and your dog have worked to become. Yes, we won't miss the titles, etc. when the dog is gone, but to look at that wall of amazing achievements you and your beloved teammate have come together to achieve is a symbol of what you and your partner have been through.  Would you tell married people that they shouldn't buy rings?  It's a symbol for them.  On a much smaller note, this is the same as ribbons, and bars.  For some it's important. For some it's not.  For me, I started training by myself and taught my 3 dogs all of our distance work, and my recent dog is 100% "home schooled".  To not have anyone's help in our success in the last 8 years, these bars and ribbons mean a huge amount to me what my dogs and I have succeeded at with all of our struggles and learning curves.  Again, I don't expect clubs to offer them, but I like to know as I will buy my own if they aren't available to have them for our championship photo and to hang on the wall as a memory of the hills and mountains we have climbed together as soul and teammates.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: David Tharle on September 02, 2017, 05:31:28 AM
Interesting conversation. As Chief cook & bottle washer of a small club, with 1 trial a year, I don't want to have to have issue specialty ribbons. We have 1 to 4 placements as required and more recently we tried titling rosettes. To make the latter cost effective we ordered 100. After 3 -4 years, we still have about half a box and they're starting to look like 3-4 year old ribbons. I think the 3rd & 4th place ribbons are much older and we only ordeed 25 ea last time. We've had 4 NATCHes over the years I believe, and presented the team with an small token at a later date. Heck in our area (northern Alberta-Saskatchewan) it seems unless teams have been chasing a specific run for some time, many don't realize till after the trial.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is the fact the team receives a medal from NADAC.
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: dogrsqr on September 05, 2017, 07:02:24 PM
I never said that just because I'm not focused on ribbons that I ONLY do this for fun and titles don't mean anything to me. I like my titles as much as the next guy but the experience and relationship with my dog is the symbol not the ribbon or the bar.  I've had rescues some with considerable baggage and consider their titles a sign of accomplishing great behavioral changes.  I don't need a piece of material to remember that:  it's in my heart and my memory. 

Gina
Title: Re: NADAC Awards/Ribbons at Trials
Post by: HarryMelamed on September 06, 2017, 08:53:42 AM
I checked in  with Stanley and he told me that we can still go to agility trials without checking for ribbons first.

On the other hand, if for some reason, me and Stanley can pull it together for 9 more elite chances Q's, please make sure that you have the most amazing ribbons and poles waiting for us.