NADAC Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cindy Lee on August 28, 2017, 12:52:33 PM

Title: posting of courses
Post by: Cindy Lee on August 28, 2017, 12:52:33 PM
Hi, I am new to NADAC, just did my first trial this past weekend.  I wonder why the courses aren't posted the day of the competition.  I have shown horses all of my life, and posting the courses in the morning or at least 1 hour ahead is standard.  I find it confusing to not know the course until it is ready to walk.  Learning it and walking it at the same time doesn't come easily to me, as I have had a lifetime of being able to learn the course well before a walk (if that is permitted). 
Just wondering why it is this way?
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Chris Nelson on August 28, 2017, 01:26:59 PM
The judge should actually be posting the course, maybe they were posted in a place you didn't see?
They won't post them until the course is set though.   The main reason for this is that if a club is offering day of show entries then we don't want the difficulty of the course to be a reason for a competitor to enter.
For instance they see that Chances doesn't have a contact so they enter day of.   Just not really in the spirit that we like to see.

But once the course is set there should definitely be a course map posted!
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: garypaula on August 28, 2017, 01:53:34 PM
We always offer day-of entries, but we cut them off about 1/2 hour before the trial starts.  Is it OK to post the courses for the day once the deadline for day-of entries has passed?
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Chris Nelson on August 28, 2017, 05:50:45 PM
We always offer day-of entries, but we cut them off about 1/2 hour before the trial starts.  Is it OK to post the courses for the day once the deadline for day-of entries has passed?

It sure is!
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: kbriefel on August 28, 2017, 07:01:15 PM
I can't think of a NADAC trial I've been at that has posted a course map.  You can ask to see it but they are rarely if ever "posted." 

Ken Briefel
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Cindy Lee on August 28, 2017, 07:34:54 PM
Thank you Chris for responding to my question about posting the courses.  I did not see them posted anywhere, but maybe I somehow missed them. 
The judge had a clipboard with courses drawn that were set by helpers (I was one).  Obstacles were numbered and that is when everyone learned the course. We walked it and the class began. 
I don't think anyone knew before that what the layout was going to be.  The only thing posted by the in gate was the order of go.
I am new to competing in agility, and my horse show "routine" for preparing to compete is different, mostly because of the usual way show jumping is run.  The most common way in horse shows is that courses are posted at least 1 hour ahead, often posted in the morning, jumps are set, moved, and changed throughout the day, there is usually a course walk, then riders warm up and go.  But you have time to make a plan because you know the route ahead of time.   You might tailor your warmup depending on your horse's strengths and weaknesses as they relate to the course.  I guess I am applying this way of thinking to dog agility.
I just felt a bit unprepared to have to put all of this together in a very short amount of time, and then have my dog ready to compete.  Maybe I am just overthinking?
I also have a very fast, eager, inexperienced dog, and I am kind of old and trying to learn new tricks!  It's not easy!! 
Having a chance to learn the course ahead of time and "mull over" all of the scenarios and try to make a sensible plan takes more than a couple of minutes.  Then the course walk would just be a chance to see it up close, rather than learning it and planning at the same time. 
I'd appreciate thoughts on this.  Thanks!
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: agilityaddict2 on August 28, 2017, 08:13:04 PM
I have also never seen a course posted anywhere. I've been doing nadac for 3 years in nevada, california, utah and arizona.
It is dog agility not show jumping. I also am older and came from  a lifetime of showjumping.While there are a lot of similarities, learning and walking the course is not one of them. It might seem impossible now but you will get used to it.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: KarissaKS on August 28, 2017, 08:17:43 PM
Back when I first started it was common for courses to be taped to the wall or otherwise posted somewhere for all to see. I feel like this practice came to an end several years ago, supposedly due to the angst that it caused certain competitors when a judge would change or tweak something from the course map for safety or other reasons. NADAC courses are set to "flow," not to coordinates like other organizations, so it's entirely possible that what is set before you might not match the map exactly. Some people complained about this. It seems as though the powers that be felt the easiest thing to do was to stop posting maps. That said, I have never had a judge say "no" when someone requests to see maps (I instantly go straight to Chances every morning  ;D ) and I know many people who even take pictures of the maps to take home with them for training. You've just got to ask.

With time and experience it will get easier for you. Patterns are fairly predictable. Even at AKC trials, where they make personal copies of course maps available to competitors, I find that I take them at the beginning of the day, glance at them to get an idea of what I'm in for, then leave them in the car and forget about them. It really amounts to a lot of wasted paper and an additional expense for clubs to print them.

It's wonderful that you jumped in to help course build. For me, that is the best way to learn the course. When I build my own courses at home I generally don't even feel the need to walk them because I figured it all out while it was being built.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Chris Nelson on August 29, 2017, 09:14:03 AM
We did stop posting course maps a few years ago, but in April of this year I requested of all our judges to start posting them again.

So I'm sure a few judges are still just forgetting because of the years experience of not posting them.   So just a friendly reminder that course maps should be posted once the course is on the ground would be appreciated I'm sure :)
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Edraith on August 29, 2017, 12:13:05 PM
Wow. Another reason to be grateful for VT.
I save maps to my phone. Study them every night before setting the course, or binge if i plan on the next day. I set the course myself in run order. Then i look at it in 3D for a while. Then walk it once or twice to make sure from perspective change i can remember it. I probably spend 30+ min in total plus setup time. My dyslexia is litteraly that bad.  :-[ I still have about a 80% remember rate on intro and novice, and about 15% rate on elite hoopers. I got my first VT q on jan 1, 2015 so its been over a year of practice.

So no. It does NOT "get easier". I can find patterns faster but when patterns flip it doesnt matter. Jeaous of all you who can actually improve.  :'(

Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on August 30, 2017, 07:39:01 AM
I rarely look at course maps.  Most of the clubs that I go to don't post them, but like Karissa said, you can always ask the judge.  However, I feed that looking at the map doesn't do me a lot of good because it doesn't tell me the true path of the dog, etc.  Most people, if given a course map will simply obsess over it and not really do well with it anyway.  Now there are those that need it for whatever reason, but I find that simply walking the course a few times is more than enough.  I also run 3 dogs in the same class and they all run differently, so when I am walking, I have to account for all 3 dogs.  Looking at it on paper isn't going to help me with that.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Foomin Z on September 01, 2017, 12:33:32 PM
We did stop posting course maps a few years ago, but in April of this year I requested of all our judges to start posting them again.

So I'm sure a few judges are still just forgetting because of the years experience of not posting them.   So just a friendly reminder that course maps should be posted once the course is on the ground would be appreciated I'm sure :)
For day of show entries that are taken all day, when the course is set, the walkthrough begins immediately, as does the 5 minute timer for the walkthrough. There is no time to go look for a map AND read/study/memorize it AND do the walkthrough. This is unfortunate for those who spend most of the walkthrough looking for the cone numbers. There is no time to actually memorize the path and plan how to best help the dog through it.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: garypaula on September 01, 2017, 06:03:55 PM
"5 minute timer???"  I have been running NADAC for eight years under many judges and have never seen a timer used to regulate the amount of time people walk a course.  I'm not saying it is a good or bad thing; just wasn't aware that anybody did that.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Foomin Z on September 01, 2017, 08:06:40 PM
"5 minute timer???"  I have been running NADAC for eight years under many judges and have never seen a timer used to regulate the amount of time people walk a course.  I'm not saying it is a good or bad thing; just wasn't aware that anybody did that.
The club does this no matter the judge, so I don't think the judge is the one saying to do the 5 minute timer for walkthrough.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Chris Nelson on September 02, 2017, 01:50:50 PM
I mean we can always go back to not posting them under any circumstance, lol
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Vicki Storrs on September 02, 2017, 02:59:16 PM
your club may set a timer but not all do. Just like NATCH bars (had 'em in NV, have never seen them offered anywhere in MD) and award ribbons, all clubs are different, when it comes to things where there are no specific rules (and sometimes when there are...) so if you've primarily run in one specific area of the country, you might be surprised by how things are done somewhere else.  It may sound like a broken record lately , but you just have to go with the flow...
Vicki
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: BeckyAH on September 02, 2017, 07:52:42 PM
There are timers set for at least some trials I attend, though I only became aware of it because my husband (who scribes a lot) told me that it is often a thing.  Otherwise, I would have never known; it's just not an obvious/jarring thing, at least the way I've seen it done.

That said, while it can be daunting to try to remember the courses I find it really DOES, as with everything agility related, get easier with time/practice.   NADAC courses are so flowing it really helps.  You're not going to know where the course goes before you walk it, you do need to walk it, but sooner or later you start seeing lines of obstacles, not individual obstacles.  That helps both with running and remembering the courses.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: HarryMelamed on September 05, 2017, 03:09:33 PM
Back when I started agility, we got the courses in advance in USDAA and AKC.   I usually ground them up and fed them to my dog in hopes that they would internalize the task ahead.     

Now that I'm in NADAC, we don't get them in advance and we are doing just fine.  I guess I shouldn't have been feeding my dogs agility courses all those years.

On a more serious note.   There are games in USDAA and AKC such as Snooker, Gambler and FAST that require you to set your own path that course maps were required to plan out your route.    Since there are no games that need pre-planning in NADAC, there is really no need to get those courses in advance.   The walk throughs always have more than a generous amount of time to walk and plan your path.   I find it so much less stressful not having to obsess over maps before we run.   Just enjoy the day and what ever the courses are .





Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Pam Kaye on September 05, 2017, 04:22:39 PM
Back when I started agility, we didn't get courses handed out at USDAA.  There was one posted copy and we all crowded around it with our tracing paper and pencils.  Really.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Becky Woodruff on September 06, 2017, 07:27:16 AM
Pam,
Can you believe that was back before smart phones??

Becky

Back when I started agility, we didn't get courses handed out at USDAA.  There was one posted copy and we all crowded around it with our tracing paper and pencils.  Really.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Pam Kaye on September 06, 2017, 08:36:08 AM
Becky, it seems like that was before any phones.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Rosemary on September 06, 2017, 08:50:17 AM
I have run AKC and CPE which do hand out course maps and NADAC which does not.  Personally, I find that if I have the course map I overthink it too much.  The games that require me to plot my own path are the only maps that I use.  However, I primarily run NADAC now and like having to simply follow the numbers.  The patterns become easier to spot and I look for the "off course traps" a bit more closely. (Not saying they don't get me anyway :) )My first walk is to simply check the numbers, after that I walk with my virtual dog. 

I have also never been denied the opportunity to see a course map when I've asked.  I have managed to miss a walk through once or twice so it really came in handy then.

Most often we use a timer during the walk through.  This is to keep the trial moving.  I don't think I have ever seen anyone denied an extra pass if they requested it, but an indefinite amount of walk through time could add up quickly.

Overall, the NADAC trials that I have entered all seem to have the same philosophy.  Don't stress out.  Have fun with your dog.  Ask questions.  We all want to have a good time.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: BarbaraJeanS on September 16, 2017, 03:45:53 PM
I have never seen a course posted at any NADAC trial I have been to.  ty
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Richard Wolfe on September 16, 2017, 06:49:20 PM
In my experience, they are almost always left by the course builder, or judge after review, on the scorer's table in the ring on a clipboard and are available to view.  If you're looking for them to be on a bulletin board or elsewhere, I almost never see one posted like that.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Cindy Lee on September 22, 2017, 12:34:32 PM
I want to thank everyone who replied to my post about the posting of courses.  I have learned a few tips from some of them.  I just competed in my 2nd NADAC trial and my dog had two Q's!  I am starting to see some of the "patterns" in the courses and this is helping me learn the course more quickly and plan the best route for my dog.   I am a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to the planning how I will handle a course (horse or dog), so I still feel that having the course map ahead of time is helpful.  I did not know that one can ask to see the courses ahead of time, so this is something I will do from now on. 
Happy running to all and thanks again for all of your insights.
Title: Re: posting of courses
Post by: Laura Anne Welch on September 25, 2017, 05:49:31 PM
I'm late to this party, have done and loved NADAC for several years and understand why the rules said "no" to posting course maps, but have wished that course maps had been posted many times. It is good to learn the course by walking, but if there had been a course map to look at first, I might have avoided walking the wrong course, concentrating hard on what I needed to remember, and then find out that I had "read" the course incorrectly, in spite of the numbers on the cones.  Anyone who knows me knows this is an issue for me.  I, for one, am happy to learn that Chris has requested that judges post the courses after setting them.