3) Separating the VT program completely. This is 100% doable, but I really don't like it. The only way this will happen is with overwhelming support from everyone. This would essentially eliminate the VT program for most people, and at that point we might as well just end the program entirely.
Hi Chris,
Just a thought on the enforcing the mileage rule... I believe the current rule is somewhere around 200 miles which for us is fine most of the year; however, driving over the Sierra Nevada mountains in mid-winter can be difficult if not downright treacherous. Would you allow us to request specific exceptions at certain times of the year?
thanks for all you do,
Jill Murdock
The idea of making the VT Q's worth less, or more expensive is definitely an option.
I agree whole heartedly that trials is where people should be.
Also the list I posted above was definitely going to be used ALL TOGETHER! Using only a couple of those options would help, but at this point we would be enforcing all of the options I listed above. With the possibility of a couple more not listed.
Fact : Other venues don't have VTs.
There are at least two other active video programs out there, and those are just the ones I know of!
But the club gets some of that money. And not when you have to rent your rings5 hrs of driving I assume is somewhere between 250-300 miles, yes? And I am assuming that’s one way, yes? I won’t right out all the figures but I would guess, depending on the type of vehicle, your spending $50-$100 just in gas. Plus food. Plus hotel if you are doing multiple days.
But the club gets some of that money. And not when you have to rent your rings
I still feel a 100% increase isrxcesdive, especially since it dosn't support a clubBut it does support the lowest priced (or tied for the lowest) venue in the country and the only venue to even offer VT to exhibitors.
In Nadac’s case, even with the price increase to VT, by the time you figure on the time involved to judge all the video submissions, enter all that info into the database including put together the email system for every time someone earns a title, AND manually put together awards and spend the unbelievable mailing fees to mail them..... there’s little profit left over for Nadac as well.But the club gets some of that money. And not when you have to rent your rings
Actually - by supporting the club - which is awesome - you are actually supporting everyone who wants to get together to play with their dogs - all the $$ that clubs take in goes toward the running of the trial - at least in my area - there is very little $$ left over for a "profit" if you will - when all is said and done
Question.....I read that the results of the voting will be posted Dec. 10th.....but when will any of the new rules take effect?Chris is hoping for Jan 1. He would like to not have to suspend the program so he is trying to have everything situated by then.
In Nadac’s case, even with the price increase to VT, by the time you figure on the time involved to judge all the video submissions, enter all that info into the database including put together the email system for every time someone earns a title, AND manually put together awards and spend the unbelievable mailing fees to mail them..... there’s little profit left over for Nadac as well.But the club gets some of that money. And not when you have to rent your rings
Actually - by supporting the club - which is awesome - you are actually supporting everyone who wants to get together to play with their dogs - all the $$ that clubs take in goes toward the running of the trial - at least in my area - there is very little $$ left over for a "profit" if you will - when all is said and done
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I trial 4 or 5 times/year because it is a 1200 mile round trip each time to my closest NADAC trial. I end up taking 5 days for each trial so it is a large expense in time and money. I do these trials because I love them and the people who share them. Having the VT option gives us the opportunity to get a few titles, especially for the owner of my rented teammate to show off. Even for VT runs, I drive 4 hours round trip plus I haul a full pickup load of agility equipment and we do not have access to use any contacts. The field is surrounded by large apartment complexes, busy roads and sidewalks, blowing garbage, no fences, lots of distractions plus the horrendous ND winds so there are challenges here also. Yes, there are AKC trials which are a 550 mile round trip--but I love NADAC!
We certainly are a "NADAC desert" so I hope the program can continue, it gives us the only opportunity to have something very close to a trial experience to help us when we actually get to one. But if not, thank you for what you have done!
So if the submission cost rises to $10 per run we will end up paying $15/run for VT runs unless of course you have room and equipment to run in your own back yard which I do not. I will opt out of any VT at that time as well. If I just want to practice I can do that for free where we teach. No ..... we can't run VT there because there are poles in the building and slats on the contacts.
I think the point that someone else was trying to make is that those putting on the VT runs aren't doing it for free. When we hold a trial the cost per run to NADAC and the judge don't add up to $10/run.
Gina
So if the submission cost rises to $10 per run we will end up paying $15/run for VT runs unless of course you have room and equipment to run in your own back yard which I do not. I will opt out of any VT at that time as well. If I just want to practice I can do that for free where we teach. No ..... we can't run VT there because there are poles in the building and slats on the contacts.
I think the point that someone else was trying to make is that those putting on the VT runs aren't doing it for free. When we hold a trial the cost per run to NADAC and the judge don't add up to $10/run.
Gina
Without price breaks for running many runs, the cost per run in trials I attend is between 11 and 15.00 per run. With price breaks it is down to 9 or 10. Nowhere, no matter how many runs goes lower than 9. Even adding in the cost per run at our VT events, you are at worst getting the same 15.00/run that it would cost in one of the more expensive trials. Obviously this varies based on club and location, but those are the numbers for me.
This is also without accounting for the fact that I pay for runs that aren't Qs in a real trial, as opposed to VT where I only have to pay that 10.00 for Qs. I am DEFINITELY paying for runs that aren't Qs in in person trials (and on a bad weekend I have had some '80.00 Qs')
So while I rarely do VT it is STILL more cost effective than even the local trial. For it not to be the submission cost would have to approach something like double the even increased price.
Just an FYI......Trial attendance is down across all venues.....at least they are in Texas.
Just an FYI......Trial attendance is down across all venues.....at least they are in Texas.
If the program goes forward and hopefully the trial mile and day limitations remain, I don’t see a need for exceptions HQ approval since it is still incumbent on the Exhibitor to get that local club running a trial’s approval. No local trialing club approval = no VT exception. To my knowledge this has worked around Texas well, except for the violator(s).
I’m great with managed VT’s for the 600 mile away folks particularly. God love ‘em for having the desire and option for NADAC VT structure. And Who knows, maybe a new Group eventually develops within their geographic location.
Chris, I have some fact questions about VT's.
First, how many VT runs are there each year, compared to runs at NADAC trials? Any way to get that stat?
Second, what is your take on how many VT's are done by one or two private people, vs. a club putting them on like Jumping Chollas?
Third, what is your take on how many VT's are done in more remote areas where NADAC trials are non-existent or pretty scarce, vs. urban areas, like Phoenix?
I think that data could really help figuring out whether they should continue and, if so, in what form with what rules. Thanks.
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I should mention that VT has had a LOT of positive response in my region and has created some additional interest. And, I know the people by me are very honest. I just hope we keep the trial as the primary goal which it sounds like you are wanting to do.
Keep up the great work, Chris!! I am forever appreciative!!!!!
It’s simply a difference of only paying for Q’s vs paying for every run and the trial staff doing all the work vs the Nadac Office doing all the work.
There is no way to describe the amount of behind the scenes work that goes into VT’s between Chris, Amanda, and Stefan.
Convenience always costs more. That’s just life. It never fails, when it’s convenient for the end user, it’s twice as much work for the people offering it.
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Chris that list is awesome. Is that total or per year?That was for 2016. And it's number of Q's
I tend to be of the opinion that being highly concerned about other people's opinion of the validity of your titles or organization choices is a personal problem - not a problem with the organization or for the organization to solve.
QuoteI tend to be of the opinion that being highly concerned about other people's opinion of the validity of your titles or organization choices is a personal problem - not a problem with the organization or for the organization to solve.
When an organization is trying to solve the problem of dwindling trial numbers and can't figure out why people are leaving NADAC, then this does become a problem for the organization to solve. If people won't do NADAC because they think the titles are a joke then that IS a problem for the organization. This is not about my feelings, it's about one of the reasons why NADAC numbers have dropped since the inception of the VT program.
Also, as a person operating a business and deriving at least a portion of my income from training others to do agility, it does matter if people think my titles are a joke because I am less likely to obtain their business. So this sort of thing directly affects me.
Re: Cost of judge/trials. To keep things relatively impartial and fair there are also rules about how close to 'home' a judge can judge. So a local person really isn't an option for saving money for clubs.How unusual for this judging-distance limit to exist. Locally to me, there are a number of judges for various organizations who rotate around to all the local sites for trials. Wouldn't it help smaller groupings of people if they could become NADAC judges and work local trials?
I tend to be of the opinion that being highly concerned about other people's opinion of the validity of your titles or organization choices is a personal problem - not a problem with the organization or for the organization to solve.
I can't think of a single agility organization that I do not hear derided and mocked by people who don't like it. Including 'Agility in the USA as a whole is a joke'. So be it. I know where I run, how I run, under what conditions I run and feel absolutely no need to demand that other people do the same so I can convince other people to be 'appropriately' impressed by those titles.
I also think that, again, saying VT runs won't count for titles is going to alienate those people from coming to trials at all, accomplish nothing but soothing some wounded pride in a minority of trial competitors, and generally do nothing to address the issues that this reform is meant to address. That's opinion. what's going to happen is going to happen. Some people are going to be unhappy no matter what. It's just the nature of the beast.
If the reason to dispose of the VT program is because it is too much work and not cost effective for NADAC, then you either have to make that decision based on business reasons or solicit reasons that might assist with that problem.
Some people are assuming that VT runs are taking place at training centers where dogs are taking class and they are therefore comfortable there. That may be true in some cases but not all. Even if it is the case how is that any different than those that only trial at the same place at regular trials?
VT runs don't take any runs from our trials. People here are using them to supplement the classes that are harder for them or that aren't offered much.
I really don't understand how someone getting a title thru VT runs makes anybody else's title a joke. Even if you believe that, if you get yours at regular trials isn't that different than how the other got theirs?
Quite frankly I don't care what anyone else says anyway. I really don't understand why people feel the need to judge what brings others happiness.
I am glad that NADAC has time/distance restrictions on judges. I would find it boring to show under the same judge all the time.
Gina
Some people are assuming that VT runs are taking place at training centers where dogs are taking class and they are therefore comfortable there. That may be true in some cases but not all. Even if it is the case how is that any different than those that only trial at the same place at regular trials?
VT runs don't take any runs from our trials. People here are using them to supplement the classes that are harder for them or that aren't offered much.
I really don't understand how someone getting a title thru VT runs makes anybody else's title a joke. Even if you believe that, if you get yours at regular trials isn't that different than how the other got theirs?
Quite frankly I don't care what anyone else says anyway. I really don't understand why people feel the need to judge what brings others happiness.
I am glad that NADAC has time/distance restrictions on judges. I would find it boring to show under the same judge all the time.
Gina
QuoteI tend to be of the opinion that being highly concerned about other people's opinion of the validity of your titles or organization choices is a personal problem - not a problem with the organization or for the organization to solve.
When an organization is trying to solve the problem of dwindling trial numbers and can't figure out why people are leaving NADAC, then this does become a problem for the organization to solve. If people won't do NADAC because they think the titles are a joke then that IS a problem for the organization. This is not about my feelings, it's about one of the reasons why NADAC numbers have dropped since the inception of the VT program.
Also, as a person operating a business and deriving at least a portion of my income from training others to do agility, it does matter if people think my titles are a joke because I am less likely to obtain their business. So this sort of thing directly affects me.
Frankly, the posts that say, "You don't even do VT so your opinion doesn't matter" don't do much to retain those of us who do currently support NADAC while competing in multiple organizations.
Also, as a trainer, I can't force my students to train for distance. I regularly share videos that show me working my dogs at a distance AND doing "international" skills. Quite honestly, the distance videos seem to get more interest and comments -- but I don't have one single person who has come to me and said, "Can you teach me to do that?" After my first batch of students went to their first NADAC trial, where they were exposed to Chances for the first time, I was asked to have a distance-specific class. I put it on the next schedule. Do you know how many people signed up? ONE. She admitted that she felt what she learned over those 6 weeks helped her in all of the courses we run, but after doing one NADAC trial and one AKC trial she said she thinks she'd rather do AKC. Why? Not sure, you'd have to ask her.
There are many reasons people don't do NADAC. Maybe you should ask them. Meanwhile maybe you should stop driving away the people who do include NADAC trials in their multi-venue pursuits.
Face it, weekly classes are places where folks meet other dog people and develop friendships. They don't want to be kicked out into the unknown...
I'm certainly NOT talking about trainers who are open to teaching cross venue skills and who have and do step into the NADAC arena.
Becky
Frankly, the posts that say, "You don't even do VT so your opinion doesn't matter" don't do much to retain those of us who do currently support NADAC while competing in multiple organizations.
Also, as a trainer, I can't force my students to train for distance. I regularly share videos that show me working my dogs at a distance AND doing "international" skills. Quite honestly, the distance videos seem to get more interest and comments -- but I don't have one single person who has come to me and said, "Can you teach me to do that?" After my first batch of students went to their first NADAC trial, where they were exposed to Chances for the first time, I was asked to have a distance-specific class. I put it on the next schedule. Do you know how many people signed up? ONE. She admitted that she felt what she learned over those 6 weeks helped her in all of the courses we run, but after doing one NADAC trial and one AKC trial she said she thinks she'd rather do AKC. Why? Not sure, you'd have to ask her.
There are many reasons people don't do NADAC. Maybe you should ask them. Meanwhile maybe you should stop driving away the people who do include NADAC trials in their multi-venue pursuits.
Are you talking about VT driving them away?
I guess I will just say that there is always going to be some things that individuals will disagree with about any organization. Some people will be drawn in by VT and some will be driven away by it.
I used to trial in another venue, not a lot but the local trials. When I came back to it with Abbey I found some things that I didn't like that were deal breakers to me so I quit entering even the local trials. I didn't feel like I was driven away ... just that what was important to me wasn't part of that organization. In addition what has happened here is that all trials except the NADAC trials are indoors on matting in spaces that would make me claustrophobic. While others seem to really enjoy that it's just not for me.
Gina
Are you talking about VT driving them away?
QuoteAre you talking about VT driving them away?
No, I'm talking about the attitude of "this is our game and if you don't like it you can leave" -- but then in the same breath crying about a lack of NADAC trials.
And for the record, I have talked to a number of competitors in other organizations who did cite the VT program as being a reason they don't respect NADAC enough to spend their money on it. I have also talked to NADAC competitors (past and present) who cited disdain for the VT program.
I fought against the program when the points were first combined. I lost then. I did less NADAC. I appear to have made zero impact this time. I am made to feel that my opinions don't count and that I'm wrong to feel the way I do. I am one of those apparent "rare" trainers who can and does train for skills across the board, and when I give my opinion and share things I hear at other trials I am essentially told that I don't count.
If you want to keep NADAC a club for NADAC purists then keep doing what you are doing. If you want to grow your numbers and draw in people who do other organizations then maybe be a bit more open to listening to why people don't want to do NADAC.
Also for the record, I was at a NADAC trial this weekend where a handful of people came up and said, "I saw what you posted and think you made good points" -- but not everyone is "brave" enough to speak up on these matters for whatever reason.
In addition to me having no faith that people adhere to the "first try" rule in VT submissions, I've also seen a number of examples of runs listed as qualifying that shouldn't have been. I saw a qualifying run in Chances with a dropped bar. I saw a qualifying run in Weavers where the dog skipped poles. I've seen submissions that were so blurry and from such a distance that I couldn't even see the bar, much less if one dropped or the contact angles are terrible. All of this is what goes to form my opinion that the VT program is not legit or on par with scores earned at trials.
I will chime in here. :-) I am the one who reviews VTs, and sometimes when doing large batches I do miss things every now and then. With the changes coming in January, these oversights should hopefully be completely stopped with some changes on my end that will be made. :-)
Chris is currently out of town right now, But i am sure he will chime in on a few things in here as well once he gets a chance.
I do agree that we need to listen to why people aren’t doing NADAC, and Chris and I have been trying very hard to do that this year and will be doing the same next year. Every venue has something different to offer, and I am personally against venue bashing of any kind.
There are lots of different flavors of agility to do, and I think every venue should be listening to their competitors. That doesn’t mean making every change that competitors want, but we should always be listening! :-)
Amanda
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I will chime in here. :-) I am the one who reviews VTs, and sometimes when doing large batches I do miss things every now and then. With the changes coming in January, these oversights should hopefully be completely stopped with some changes on my end that will be made. :-)
Chris is currently out of town right now, But i am sure he will chime in on a few things in here as well once he gets a chance.
I do agree that we need to listen to why people aren’t doing NADAC, and Chris and I have been trying very hard to do that this year and will be doing the same next year. Every venue has something different to offer, and I am personally against venue bashing of any kind.
There are lots of different flavors of agility to do, and I think every venue should be listening to their competitors. That doesn’t mean making every change that competitors want, but we should always be listening! :-)
Amanda
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Amanda, even judges at trials miss some things. I would think once you have more time or people to review the videos that judging will be tougher than regular trials since you can rewind and watch in slow motion.
Gina
Seriously. I've gotten Qs where I missed things and not gotten Qs I'm pretty sure I didn't. That's the nature of the beast. Judges do the best they can to be accurate and fair, competitors accept the ruling and move on. Yes, the judges are always there to talk to and willing but 'the agility gods give and the agility gods taketh away' I thought was pretty fundamentally understood across all venues and sports.
As a general: "The judges do their best, ask if you had questions but accept their calls in the end, whether they're in your favor or against."
But my ability to care about someone else's 10pt Q is just not something that exists. In fact it's negative, to the degree that I find the idea of even trying both weird and a little insulting. I'm running my own race here, and on my own journey. My only role in someone else's is to be supportive of them, and if I can't do that shut up and stay out of their way. Actually, be supportive or get out of the way and don't hinder them is pretty much my philosophy in LIFE.
(Cheating is bad of course, and efforts should be made to stop it, but things like miscalls? Not my journey - or circus or monkeys or problem or business.)
Absolutely. My comment was only to be supportive of Amanda. We are all only human we all do the best we can.
I've always said ... it's only agility. Nothing earth shattering or life saving. No one lives or dies because of a Q or an NQ. Some of my best runs have been NQ's because of a missed contact, but that took nothing away from the dance. As I sit here waiting for a CERF test in January because something doesn't seem quite right with my dog, I think none of this is really that important.
Gina
I think to say we aren’t taking everyone’s opinions into account is a little off. Seeming how we did use everyone’s opinion in the survey to make the new rules. Separating points was voted against, by a very large margin. 700 people voted. The majority rules.
Also the rule book is no longer outdated. We’ve been updating every time there is an update, we haven’t updated for the VT stuff yet because it hasn’t gone into effect.
Also there is always going to be people who don’t compete in some venue for some reason. It’s been like that for 20+ years and I don’t see it stopping anytime soon. I do agree that trainers need to teach Nadac skills for the trials to grow. But trying to get someone who hasn’t even looked at a nadac course map in ten years to all of a sudden start teaching our skills is not easy. And there is also the question if they haven’t been to a Nadac trial in ten years, can they even teach our skills
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I will chime in here. :-) I am the one who reviews VTs, and sometimes when doing large batches I do miss things every now and then. With the changes coming in January, these oversights should hopefully be completely stopped with some changes on my end that will be made. :-)I dont know if it helps or not, but in the description I always put if I am unsure if it would q, and why. Usually it is because I know I am right on the time using the SCT chart (which I know can vary for each actual course). But I dont know if those even show bc it doesnt in the view runs section.
QuoteI tend to be of the opinion that being highly concerned about other people's opinion of the validity of your titles or organization choices is a personal problem - not a problem with the organization or for the organization to solve.
When an organization is trying to solve the problem of dwindling trial numbers and can't figure out why people are leaving NADAC, then this does become a problem for the organization to solve. If people won't do NADAC because they think the titles are a joke then that IS a problem for the organization. This is not about my feelings, it's about one of the reasons why NADAC numbers have dropped since the inception of the VT program.
Also, as a person operating a business and deriving at least a portion of my income from training others to do agility, it does matter if people think my titles are a joke because I am less likely to obtain their business. So this sort of thing directly affects me.
Karissa
Trainers around here have always said NADAC was a joke. This was going on LOOOOONG before VT trials. When I first started in 2009, I went to a run through at a local place that trained for AKC. The person running it told me that she won't do the "crazy distance" that is needed for NADAC. Another trainer, who happens to be a friend of mine, said that she won't do NADAC because she does USDAA and she doesn't want her dog to work that far away from her. Another VERY well known trainer, kicked my friends out of her class because they used "go on" and she thought of that as a NADAC phrase and knew they were doing NADAC.
So, it isn't the VT program that people don't like, it is NADAC in general and the VT program gives them something to poke at. They can point to the VT runs as a reason NOT to do NADAC, while the reality is, that they don't know how to TRAIN to be successful in NADAC. They don't know how to train the dog for distance and they don't know how to train for independent obstacle performance. And if they can't be successful in an organization, then they can't get students to train with them. If they don't have students, they are out of business. SOOOO, if they are successful in AKC or USDAA, then they can brag about their titles and get students.
I am currently training with Calypso at an AKC place. I go there because it is convenient, but is the trainer really able to train me? Nope. She can give me some pointers on wraps or backsides, but Calypso runs at a distance from me and she has no clue how to help me with that. If I had another option would I go to her? Nope because she can't possibly train me as I need to be trained. If I didn't know about NADAC at the time that I started with her, would she encourage me to run it? Nope, because she can't run it, so she doesn't train it, thus doesn't encourage others to run it. Heck, she didn't even know what a NADAC course looked like until I gave her some course maps.
Frankly, the posts that say, "You don't even do VT so your opinion doesn't matter" don't do much to retain those of us who do currently support NADAC while competing in multiple organizations.Karissa, I may have missed it, but I don't recall seeing any posts saying that because you don't do any VTs, your opinion doesn't matter. I think instructors are very important in forming students opinions of other organizations. I started with a Nadac instructor and was encouraged in Nadac, and I really wasn't aware of any other organizations. Since then I have gone to other places and observed other trainers' opinions and actions, which normally talks NADAC down. But I saw no benefit to taking any of their classes they felt they couldn't teach me anything. If I'd started there first, I have no doubt I would be influenced by what these instructors had to say. And if the majority of your students do AKC, I have no doubt that your one student who preferred AKC, probably does because either all her friends are doing it, or all her other friends pressured her into doing it. I would have been curious enough to ask her why she preferred AKC over NADAC. It would be interesting to know, whether it change your behavior or not. I have observed a lot of runs in different venues, and Nadac handling would greatly improve handling in other venues. Handling in AKC, for example, involves a lot more effort. Not criticizing it, but I often think there's a better way.
Also, as a trainer, I can't force my students to train for distance. I regularly share videos that show me working my dogs at a distance AND doing "international" skills. Quite honestly, the distance videos seem to get more interest and comments -- but I don't have one single person who has come to me and said, "Can you teach me to do that?" After my first batch of students went to their first NADAC trial, where they were exposed to Chances for the first time, I was asked to have a distance-specific class. I put it on the next schedule. Do you know how many people signed up? ONE. She admitted that she felt what she learned over those 6 weeks helped her in all of the courses we run, but after doing one NADAC trial and one AKC trial she said she thinks she'd rather do AKC. Why? Not sure, you'd have to ask her.
There are many reasons people don't do NADAC. Maybe you should ask them. Meanwhile maybe you should stop driving away the people who do include NADAC trials in their multi-venue pursuits.
I started with a Nadac instructor and was encouraged in Nadac, and I really wasn't aware of any other organizations. Since then I have gone to other places and observed other trainers' opinions and actions, which normally talks NADAC down. But I saw no benefit to taking any of their classes they felt they couldn't teach me anything. If I'd started there first, I have no doubt I would be influenced by what these instructors had to say.
I may have missed it, but I don't recall seeing any posts saying that because you don't do any VTs, your opinion doesn't matter.
And if the majority of your students do AKC, I have no doubt that your one student who preferred AKC, probably does because either all her friends are doing it, or all her other friends pressured her into doing it. I would have been curious enough to ask her why she preferred AKC over NADAC.
And I'm just curious-- do you only have concerns about Nadac, or do you have concerns about other organizations as well?