NADAC Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Laura Anne Welch on March 13, 2018, 08:56:09 PM

Title: course maps
Post by: Laura Anne Welch on March 13, 2018, 08:56:09 PM
The announcement says that all course maps may be posted, does that mean that it is at the discretion of the judge, or will all course maps be posted on the day of the trial?
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: judy.whitbred on March 14, 2018, 04:34:16 AM
The announcement says that all course maps may be posted, does that mean that it is at the discretion of the judge, or will all course maps be posted on the day of the trial?
I am not replying to this question but I am hopeful this change will be implemented.  I heartily support it.


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Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Chris Nelson on March 14, 2018, 06:01:54 AM
I highly encourage all the maps to be posted.  There is a small amount of push back and once I eliminate that then weíll change the wording to Ďmust be postedí


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Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Lois Mierau on March 14, 2018, 06:40:38 AM
Chris, if we have to post courses (I like the idea) can we still accept day of entries?

Lois Mierau
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Chris Nelson on March 14, 2018, 07:19:56 AM
Chris, if we have to post courses (I like the idea) can we still accept day of entries?

Lois Mierau


Yup!   That is the main change


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Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Janice_Shavor on March 14, 2018, 08:26:37 AM
Cool!!!
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on March 14, 2018, 09:52:13 AM
Can the course maps be provided in a binder?  We don't have a place to actually put them up.
Linda
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Chris Nelson on March 14, 2018, 09:59:58 AM
Oh yeah.  They can just be stacked on a table,  which is what I normally do.  Long as they are available


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Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Rena Bonem on March 14, 2018, 10:06:45 AM
Just to clarify, does this mean we can post all the maps at the start of the day, let someone look at the Novice Chances map, and add a day of trial entry for chances right before the class runs?  Can they walk the class and come in and do day of trial?  Just want to know before the trial at the end of the month.

Rena
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Chris Nelson on March 14, 2018, 10:10:53 AM
Just to clarify, does this mean we can post all the maps at the start of the day, let someone look at the Novice Chances map, and add a day of trial entry for chances right before the class runs?  Can they walk the class and come in and do day of trial?  Just want to know before the trial at the end of the month.

Rena
Yes, yes and it depends on the club.

I donít allow entries once the course is on the ground because by that point Iíve printed my gate sheets and it always gets ugly when people start writing in.

But, that is a club decision.    I know some clubs will be allowing people to enter even after the course is on the ground.   So dealers choice


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Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Foomin Z on March 14, 2018, 02:23:31 PM
WOO HOO!!
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Laura Anne Welch on March 14, 2018, 04:36:05 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Sara Langston on March 15, 2018, 06:03:24 AM
Just so I am clear on this, for a 3-day trial, you post all the course maps for Friday on Friday and all the course maps for Saturday on Saturday, etc.  Not all course maps for the whole weekend on Friday.  I love this change and the fact that we can still accept DOS entries.  That has been a blessing for our trials.  Thanks so much, Chris. 

Sara
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Chris Nelson on March 15, 2018, 06:24:33 AM
You can actually post Friday, Saturday and Sunday courses all on Friday.


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Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Jeannie Biggers on March 15, 2018, 08:08:11 AM
We just went and bought a cheap 3 ring binder, put dividers in it to show Friday, Saturday, and Sunday and plan to just take a set and put them in Friday when the judge shows up.  Leave it by the ribbons and results.  Makes it easy I think!
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: susaneiss on March 15, 2018, 12:15:42 PM
Thank you so much for making this change. 
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Pam Kaye on March 15, 2018, 12:50:38 PM
Good idea, Jeannie.  The maps shouldn't disappear, fly off in the breeze, or get placed in another location.
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: gm5bkc on March 15, 2018, 01:01:16 PM
Oh yeah.  They can just be stacked on a table,  which is what I normally do.  Long as they are available.

A notebook with one set of maps is a good reference but a stack of copies that people can take each day (like DOCNA, USDAA, AKC) is nicer because you can take the maps back to your crate and study them between runs.  Metal clips can hold the stacks together at outdoor trials.
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Marj Vincent on March 15, 2018, 01:09:21 PM
At our trials, if anyone wants a copy, they simply take a picture on their phone.  And we don't have any wasted paper. Everyone is happy!

Here is picture of our new course map binder.   
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Chris Nelson on March 15, 2018, 01:17:06 PM
Yeah I think in the current day and age personal copies for every single exhibitor is a little over kill


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Title: Re: course maps
Post by: BeckyAH on March 15, 2018, 01:18:45 PM
Yeah I think in the current day and age personal copies for every single exhibitor is a little over kill


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HUGE waste of paper, too.
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Edraith on March 15, 2018, 01:38:41 PM
Yeah I think in the current day and age personal copies for every single exhibitor is a little over kill


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HUGE waste of paper, too.
Get an iPhone then you can draw on the image with the built-in edit feature ("markup").
(I am sure there must be an andriod equivilant the way Android peeps like to brag about how much more advanced their phones are than iPhones :P )
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Merri on March 15, 2018, 06:57:02 PM
1.  Not everyone has a cell phone with camera/notebook etc.  By not providing paper maps, there is now a distinction between haves and have nots. Just because you have a phone does not mean everyone does.  If having a cell phone is now expected, I hope clubs make that clear so that those who do not have cell phones can choose.   Consideration for all entrants would be the best way to go so those with can use their phones and others can have maps.  If courses become more difficult because now people have time to memorize, then this will creating 2 tiers.  Some people would rather budget the money on agility, not on cell phones
2.  If course maps are available all weekend, then one can take maps for Sat and Sun and practice them at home before running the course.  VT runs require it to be the first run.  Therefore it seems better to only make maps available day of runs.
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Marj Vincent on March 15, 2018, 07:33:02 PM
So I am thinking the paper needed to supply exhibitors maps is off the charts.  For example, our club offers 22 courses during a three day show.  So 22 courses x 4 levels = 88 different course maps.   Let's say there are 30 exhibitors (and that is a small trial)....so 88 x 30 = 2640 course copies would be needed....or 5 reams of paper or one whole case of paper!  I can't imagine any judge wanting to carry a case of course maps on the plane with them!  NADAC use to print out maps but that was when we only had 3 classes. Now we have 8 different classes. I am sure you could print copies on both sides of the paper....but you get the idea.....just not feasible or justified for this club!
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Chris Nelson on March 15, 2018, 07:48:47 PM
1.  Not everyone has a cell phone with camera/notebook etc.  By not providing paper maps, there is now a distinction between haves and have nots. Just because you have a phone does not mean everyone does.  If having a cell phone is now expected, I hope clubs make that clear so that those who do not have cell phones can choose.   Consideration for all entrants would be the best way to go so those with can use their phones and others can have maps.  If courses become more difficult because now people have time to memorize, then this will creating 2 tiers.  Some people would rather budget the money on agility, not on cell phones
2.  If course maps are available all weekend, then one can take maps for Sat and Sun and practice them at home before running the course.  VT runs require it to be the first run.  Therefore it seems better to only make maps available day of runs.

Regarding number 2,  if people want to cheat,  they will probably find a way.

If someone really wants to go home and set up a course so they have a better chance at the trial we canít prevent that.   

They could already be doing it,  if itís a double run trial youíll know that youíre running the reverse of todayís round, and you could go home and practice.

How often this happens I imagine is quite minuscule and I highly doubt it affects a q rate as we all know things always find a new way of going sideways!


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Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Cindy on March 15, 2018, 07:53:44 PM
So I am thinking the paper needed to supply exhibitors maps is off the charts.  For example, our club offers 22 courses during a three day show.  So 22 courses x 4 levels = 88 different course maps.   Let's say there are 30 exhibitors (and that is a small trial)....so 88 x 30 = 2640 course copies would be needed....or 5 reams of paper or one whole case of paper!  I can't imagine any judge wanting to carry a case of course maps on the plane with them!  NADAC use to print out maps but that was when we only had 3 classes. Now we have 8 different classes. I am sure you could print copies on both sides of the paper....but you get the idea.....just not feasible or justified for this club!

In the old days...pre cell phones...people would take tracing paper and would trace the posted course maps, then take that to their set ups to study or home to practice skills the courses pointed out they didn't have for the next trial.  No copies for the club, handlers who wanted them could have them, and all were happy.  Or at least all who wanted to be were happy.  Just a suggestion from the days before technology intruded into the game!

Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Richard Wolfe on March 15, 2018, 08:31:37 PM
I don't see a need for NADAC, or any of the clubs for that matter, to provide room service. The maps are now going to be posted.  How the competitors deal with that is really their own business.
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: mephalon on March 16, 2018, 04:04:58 AM
So I am thinking the paper needed to supply exhibitors maps is off the charts.  For example, our club offers 22 courses during a three day show.  So 22 courses x 4 levels = 88 different course maps.   Let's say there are 30 exhibitors (and that is a small trial)....so 88 x 30 = 2640 course copies would be needed....or 5 reams of paper or one whole case of paper!  I can't imagine any judge wanting to carry a case of course maps on the plane with them!  NADAC use to print out maps but that was when we only had 3 classes. Now we have 8 different classes. I am sure you could print copies on both sides of the paper....but you get the idea.....just not feasible or justified for this club!

I really don't care if maps are provided (individually or posted) or not but just for perspective- I judge for another venue that provides course maps-   I usually have about 30 course changes given the levels and number of classes offered (and remember Regular 1/2 is just a reverse,  Tunnelers, Touch N Go don't change between E/O/N and Weavers and Chances have slight changes that don't need individual maps)-  you do not print the courses one per page but rather four per page and double side.     My costs for providing course maps ranges from $25-$40 depending how many people are entered and that includes builder copies.    I use a local UPS store and they charge $.05 per copy (and I am in the NYC area where prices are high but they have a loyal customer card type thing that brings the cost down).  So in actuality it is not all that much money or all that much an inconvenience for the judge.   

M
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: dogrsqr on March 16, 2018, 05:39:10 AM
I don't get it.  There were many years when we didn't even post courses.  Do you want your entry fees to go up to cover the costs of paper and printing?  Most of the clubs are trying to keep their operating expenses to a minimum so we can keep our entry fees lower than other venues to try to encourage participation in NADAC.  Maybe we should just offer course copies as an order to be placed with your entry and attach an extra charge to those that want paper copies.

Gina
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: tag team on March 16, 2018, 09:16:53 AM
Love this change!   I forgot this was the case at a recent trial!  I could have been memorizing courses before walking them so I could use my walk-through time for analyzing the best way to show the path to two very different running dogs (4" Lil and 16" Takoda).   Instead I was rushing around like a chicken without a head.  Silly in hindsight!

This is slightly onto a new topic but since it has to do with course maps.... I've heard that judges are now designing courses.  I LOVE THIS and I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see judges bring their own courses to trials.  This way, over time we competitors would know what to expect (like in other venues) plus judges could see first hand how their courses were running.  This would likely influence future course design as judges figured out how to to put their personal twists on courses while staying true to NADAC's long time commitment to considering the dog's motion along with handling challenges.

I'd also love to see the name of the course designer on course maps when the courses are not designed by the judge at the trial.  When I used to compete in USDAA and AKC, knowing who the judge would be at a trial (meaning who would be designing the courses) influenced which trials I made sure to enter because I loved that judge's courses.  Also, clubs could select judges based on the style of courses they tend to design...what types of courses their club members and local competitors enjoyed running.  I see this as a win-win since competitors would have a say in what types of course challenges they want to see and NADAC and judges would receive ongoing feedback about the same.

Change is inevitable.  Growth is optional. 

I always opt for growth... and see my suggestions as rolling the NADAC change/growth ball further down the path its already heading.

I'd love to know what fellow competitors think!  Feedback is always welcome. 

Dev
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: BeckyAH on March 16, 2018, 10:15:05 AM
I don't get it.  There were many years when we didn't even post courses.  Do you want your entry fees to go up to cover the costs of paper and printing?  Most of the clubs are trying to keep their operating expenses to a minimum so we can keep our entry fees lower than other venues to try to encourage participation in NADAC.  Maybe we should just offer course copies as an order to be placed with your entry and attach an extra charge to those that want paper copies.

Gina

Me either, including the fact that I am pretty danged sure I paid more for every trial entry I've ever paid than a pre-paid phone with a camera and decent sized screen (not a flip phone) would cost at Wal-Mart.    One isn't necessary, at all, but really?  If you can find the money to do agility at all you're in a pretty good position - and there are always going to be differences in what different income levels enable you to access (traveling to trials, owning competition equipment, space to set that equipment up, owning a camera or means of videoing run, access to training and what kind).   If you're going to complain about an uneven playing field 'phone with camera in an already fairly expensive and purely optional recreational activity' seems a strange place to do it.
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Edraith on March 16, 2018, 01:38:14 PM
Wow my comment about cell phones to take a pic and use for markup was supposed to be a har-har iphone vs andriod joke.  ::) I didn't mean to start a debate on having a phone or not.

if you can't grab a pic, for whatever reason, or want it on paper, whatever happened to tracing paper? I'm only 30 and I remember using tracing paper, and I grew up with cell phones. I would guess the demographic that does not have a phone that can take a pic and markup on it, would be the same demographic that remembers tracing paper (30's n ups!)  ;D
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Foomin Z on March 16, 2018, 01:56:47 PM
I don't get it.  There were many years when we didn't even post courses.  Do you want your entry fees to go up to cover the costs of paper and printing?  Most of the clubs are trying to keep their operating expenses to a minimum so we can keep our entry fees lower than other venues to try to encourage participation in NADAC.  Maybe we should just offer course copies as an order to be placed with your entry and attach an extra charge to those that want paper copies.

Gina
This is a good idea. The trial secretary would just have to remember to provide it to those who pay.

Considering there are clubs out there that now charge a fee for dogs peeing in the ring, for title ribbons, or for NOT volunteering to work the entered trial, a fee for paper copies would not be unusual.
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: giddyup on May 19, 2018, 06:11:25 AM
Just curious if it has become mandatory yet for all course maps for the whole weekend to be posted on the first day of the trial?
Thanks
Jill
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 19, 2018, 09:39:21 AM
Not quite yet.

Everyone has been requesting lots of lead time before rule changes happen.   So while this is a great option for clubs right now,  it wonít be mandatory until January.

One of the negatives of only having rule changes twice a year :)


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Title: Re: course maps
Post by: giddyup on May 19, 2018, 11:01:44 AM
Ok. Thanks Chris
Jill
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: dogrsqr on May 19, 2018, 06:01:16 PM
So coincidentally we were talking about this at our trial today.  I was wondering what is the point of displaying all the courses on the first day if you don't take DOS entries?

Thanjjs,

Gina
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 19, 2018, 06:16:33 PM
Regardless of day of show entries people just like to look at the course maps.

It hasnít affected the Q rate whatsoever at my trials so no reason not to


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Title: Re: course maps
Post by: ricbonner on May 19, 2018, 09:06:52 PM
As an exhibitor, I really like having course maps available.  I do not need my own personal copy.  The value I get is I can check the posted map (pinned/taped to a board or clipped in a binder) and learn the path in just a moment or two - usually while its being built.  It is much easier (and way less physical effort) seeing it on paper rather than having to find the path by reading the numbered cones and walking a few hundred yards.  Then when I do walk the course, I don't waste a lot of time just learning the proper path.  My "walk" time on the course is dedicated to seeing the angles and assessing handling options.  It is much more efficient for me.  Many times I just need to see/feel just one or two things and I'm good, then I go get my dog.  To me, posted course maps is a positive thing.
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: dogrsqr on May 20, 2018, 04:23:49 PM
I understand the reason for posting courses, I just donít understand why we need to post all the courses on day one.  I prefer to post them rather than put them in a book so that more than one person at a time can look at them.  Itís pretty tough to find a place to post all days courses at once.

Gina
Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Chris Nelson on May 20, 2018, 05:06:58 PM
I would just post the current day on a wall,  and then leave the other days in a binder on a table.   That way you arenít taking up extra space but still getting the job done


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Title: Re: course maps
Post by: Foomin Z on May 20, 2018, 08:02:51 PM
As an exhibitor, I really like having course maps available.  I do not need my own personal copy.  The value I get is I can check the posted map (pinned/taped to a board or clipped in a binder) and learn the path in just a moment or two - usually while its being built.  It is much easier (and way less physical effort) seeing it on paper rather than having to find the path by reading the numbered cones and walking a few hundred yards.  Then when I do walk the course, I don't waste a lot of time just learning the proper path.  My "walk" time on the course is dedicated to seeing the angles and assessing handling options.  It is much more efficient for me.  Many times I just need to see/feel just one or two things and I'm good, then I go get my dog.  To me, posted course maps is a positive thing.
I have definitely seen a positive effect for my dog for this reason. She suddenly loves barrelers since the maps started being posted, probably because I have more time to memorize the course and feel confident about where I am going. She thinks barrelers is fun. We moved up to elite so quickly, in just a couple of months. I can see her "smile" about it.