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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on June 13, 2018, 05:34:54 AM

Title: Teeter
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on June 13, 2018, 05:34:54 AM
I have been hearing rumors from various sources that the teeter is coming back.

Since NADAC is being so awesome with transparency, I figured I would just ask here.

Please tell me they are only rumors and NOT TRUE!

Since I only do NADAC, I do not own or train teeters.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Sara Langston on June 13, 2018, 07:00:10 AM
I also hope it is NOT coming back!!!! 

Sara
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 13, 2018, 07:40:30 AM
We are running some tests of the new style pneumatic teeters.

This doesnít mean its coming back.   It also doesnít mean it isnít, itís just a test to see if the new design eliminated the issues that originally caused Nadac to get rid of the teeter,  which was mainly because of inconsistency in the drop rate causing a unsafe condition for larger dogs.

So yes we are toying with the idea,  but a LOT of things would need to go right for it to happen.

If,  and itís a big if, the teeter did return, it would most likely be in a optional level above elite, so people would not have to train a teeter to get a natch.   Think Premier,  purely optional.

Again, and I canít reiterate this enough, that is only if the issues that originally caused the teeter to leave can be resolved.    And even if they are, it would be optional.



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Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Lin Battaglia on June 13, 2018, 08:23:31 AM
I certainly hope not see a teeter again, no matter what type of teeter. None of the current dogs running have ever seen one. None of my dogs back when had a problem, I considered it more of a training problem and how the dogs were taught to do the teeter. 

Here's another question...I haven't seen either Hoopers or Barrelers classes offered at NADAC's own Fund Raisers I have entered lately? Are these classes going away? People are trying to finish titles in those classes. Plus not all clubs offer those classes.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 13, 2018, 08:28:28 AM
I certainly hope not see a teeter again, no matter what type of teeter. None of the current dogs running have ever seen one. None of my dogs back when had a problem, I considered it more of a training problem and how the dogs were taught to do the teeter. 

Here's another question...I haven't seen either Hoopers or Barrelers classes offered at NADAC's own Fund Raisers I have entered lately? Are these classes going away? People are trying to finish titles in those classes. Plus not all clubs offer those classes.
Then you just wouldnít need to enter that level :)

And again,  itís only a test of the new design


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Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: agilityjunkie on June 13, 2018, 09:21:49 AM
I would be open to it. Curious about those teeters myself and I already have and train students with two kinds, wood and metal. But I would buy another if it was well made and gentler on sensitive dogs. I am very open to change if it helps with entries.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on June 13, 2018, 01:20:23 PM
Thanks for the prompt response :)

So if I am understanding you correctly, you envision another level or class beyond Elite that MAY have the teeter.

So what do you envision for championships?   You would have 3 levels at champs.. Pre-Elite, Elite an the new class? 

Thanks
lisa
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on June 13, 2018, 01:21:13 PM


Here's another question...I haven't seen either Hoopers or Barrelers classes offered at NADAC's own Fund Raisers I have entered lately? Are these classes going away? People are trying to finish titles in those classes. Plus not all clubs offer those classes.
[/quote]

I certainly hope not. Barrelers is my favorite class !!!    Plus it is nice to offer 8 runs a day.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Shirlene Clark on June 13, 2018, 02:28:11 PM
Not keen on seeing a teeter again.  I would have to ship from the USA a pneumatic one because it is certainly not available in Australia.  To me that would be a headache and a huge expense.  I know it would be considered optional in a new class but I always try to ensure Australians have access to everything offered through NADAC and this one I may not be able to do so.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Amanda Nelson on June 13, 2018, 03:15:27 PM
Everyone, please be sure to read Chris's post again.

We are evaluating teeters right now, IF they come back it would be optional, and it would be YEARS from now, and that is ONLY if it passed the issues that were present that caused the teeter to leave in the first place.

And far too early to even think about levels at championships.

Amanda


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Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on June 13, 2018, 10:55:33 PM
I guess I'm one of the few, but I love the teeter, and so do my dogs.  I've missed it ever since we got rid of it.  When I bought the agility equipment from the woman at whose yard I used to train at, I bought her teeter soley because my dogs love to go on it.  So you have one here that would love to see it come back, in whatever form you are looking into.  A premier class would be fun!!
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: garypaula on June 14, 2018, 02:00:43 PM
I do AKC, as well as NADAC, so we have to be able to do the teeter.  However, I do NOT like the teeter for many reasons.  I don't know what the pneumatic teeters are like, but here is my suggestion:  Make it so the teeter goes down at the same rate for all sizes of dogs.  In order to compete at the higher levels, time becomes a significant factor.  The difference between a Golden Retriever and a Papillon is huge in the time it takes the teeter to reach the ground even if the smaller dog runs clear to the end.  To me, the larger dog has an automatic advantage on the teeter, so not one of my favorite things.  As a matter of fact, there is a video of a Papillon and a Border Collie running at the AKC National Agility Championships a few years ago and the only reason the larger dog had the faster time (tenths of a second) is because of the teeter.  On the rest of the course, the Papillon was actually faster than the Border Collie.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: dogrsqr on June 14, 2018, 02:17:37 PM
Lorrie I was sad to see the teeter go away as well, but since itís been gone from NADAC for some time thereís a whole bunch of dogs that are older and have never been on a teeter.  For my 8 year old dog she has only been on it sporadically in class which has actually caused her to be afraid of the teeter so we donít do it anymore.  FWIW a club we belong to bought one of the new teeters so I tried her on it a half dozen times and it was awesome!  Typically she would go on it once and get slammed to the ground and then not go on it again.  That did not happen with the new teeter.

Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 14, 2018, 03:15:27 PM
I do AKC, as well as NADAC, so we have to be able to do the teeter.  However, I do NOT like the teeter for many reasons.  I don't know what the pneumatic teeters are like, but here is my suggestion:  Make it so the teeter goes down at the same rate for all sizes of dogs.  In order to compete at the higher levels, time becomes a significant factor.  The difference between a Golden Retriever and a Papillon is huge in the time it takes the teeter to reach the ground even if the smaller dog runs clear to the end.  To me, the larger dog has an automatic advantage on the teeter, so not one of my favorite things.  As a matter of fact, there is a video of a Papillon and a Border Collie running at the AKC National Agility Championships a few years ago and the only reason the larger dog had the faster time (tenths of a second) is because of the teeter.  On the rest of the course, the Papillon was actually faster than the Border Collie.
Why would a border collie be competing against a papillon?


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Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Foomin Z on June 14, 2018, 05:56:08 PM
I do AKC, as well as NADAC, so we have to be able to do the teeter.  However, I do NOT like the teeter for many reasons.  I don't know what the pneumatic teeters are like, but here is my suggestion:  Make it so the teeter goes down at the same rate for all sizes of dogs.  In order to compete at the higher levels, time becomes a significant factor.  The difference between a Golden Retriever and a Papillon is huge in the time it takes the teeter to reach the ground even if the smaller dog runs clear to the end.  To me, the larger dog has an automatic advantage on the teeter, so not one of my favorite things.  As a matter of fact, there is a video of a Papillon and a Border Collie running at the AKC National Agility Championships a few years ago and the only reason the larger dog had the faster time (tenths of a second) is because of the teeter.  On the rest of the course, the Papillon was actually faster than the Border Collie.
Why would a border collie be competing against a papillon?


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As one example, the Westminster Kennel Club only crowns one winner as their agility champion for the year among all the heights. They do some kind of factor to account for the small dogs yardage, but it still seems to favor large dogs.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 14, 2018, 08:20:36 PM
Okay.

We donít do that.  So one less thing to worry about :)


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Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: garypaula on June 15, 2018, 07:11:44 AM
My previous post about the difference in the teeter for large and small dogs kind of missed the point I was actually trying to make.  Of course, the small dogs are only compared to the small dogs and large to large.  However, what I am stressing is that the experience of the teeter is entirely different for the larger and smaller dogs.  The larger dog simply goes on to the teeter and the next thing he knows, he is at the end of it and it is hitting the ground (oversimplification, I realize).  The small dog has to go to the yellow part of the teeter and then wait patiently while it eventually tips enough to hit the ground.  These are two very different experiences and, in many ways, can't be equated.  I don't think there is any other obstacle in agility where this is the case.  For example, the larger-striding dog may get up and over the A-Frame faster than the small dog, but the experience for both dogs is essentially the same.  To make the experience the same for all dogs on the teeter, you would have to use progressively heavier teeters as the dogs got bigger, so that they (also) had to learn to wait patiently in the yellow as the teeter slowly tipped to the ground.  Obviously, this is an absurd concept, but it illustrates my point.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 15, 2018, 09:27:27 AM
I agree with your point entirely,  Iím just not sure why it matters that the dogs are having a different experience?

Weave poles are vastly different for large and small dogs.  Large dogs need to flex their body and weave,  where as a small dog it becomes more of a slalom.

I understand the concept,  but unless those two groups are competing against each other I donít see where it causes an issue. 


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Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: BeckyAH on June 15, 2018, 02:16:54 PM
I agree with your point entirely,  Iím just not sure why it matters that the dogs are having a different experience?

Weave poles are vastly different for large and small dogs.  Large dogs need to flex their body and weave,  where as a small dog it becomes more of a slalom.

I understand the concept,  but unless those two groups are competing against each other I donít see where it causes an issue. 


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THIS!

I will never do anything with a teeter if I have a choice, and since it'll be years and optional I have a choice so no big deal.   But to be clear, I don't love them so I'm not pushing for their inclusion here, but.

I have trained and competed with small and medium/large dogs and the experience is different with almost all the equipment, even the tunnels (those ribs can be a *thing* for the little dogs, the diameter can be one for big ones). Strides to get over the contacts.   The fact that the little ones pretty consistently feel the need to jump the bottom bar on hoops, even.   They all come with different challenges depending on the size, speed, and stride length of the dog. That's okay.

Just about the only way to avoid that, that I can think of, is to go to TDAA.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: mstomel on June 16, 2018, 04:47:08 PM
Out of curiosity, are the new teeters more consistent? As I understand it the nadac issue with it was the teeter would fall with some force and that force would be absorbed by dog legs. But with a small dog I've found difficultly with the tip point being soo vastly different for her. I was just curious if this issue has been fixed too with the new teeters or just the force with which it hits the ground?
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Billie Rosen on June 17, 2018, 06:25:49 AM
Out of curiosity, are the new teeters more consistent? As I understand it the nadac issue with it was the teeter would fall with some force and that force would be absorbed by dog legs. But with a small dog I've found difficultly with the tip point being soo vastly different for her. I was just curious if this issue has been fixed too with the new teeters or just the force with which it hits the ground?
redu

Many of the newer teeters are much better constructed and have ways of reducing the concussion.  Also, I think teaching methods are improved.  Our club has taught the teeter since the club started in 1993, and yes, some dogs don't like the teeter, but many do.  My dogs do teeters without any problem.  All that said, I think NADAC is fine without it and I don't know if there is a real need to bring it back.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: RobertStewart on June 19, 2018, 07:58:02 AM
I too love the teeter, I've had dogs that when I would relax and just let the dogs have the field, one would do the teeter over and over again on her own. It was kind of fun to watch that crazy girl.  My other do the teeter, mostly because we do USDAA and AKC.

That said, I have students who prefer NADAC because of their dogs issues with the teeter. People need to just calm down and we'll see what happens And as Chris mentioned it's an optional class. But then, all classes are really optional, aren't they? My one sheltie who doesn't see well, loves doing tunnelers and weavers, and hoopers, he's can't do jumps since he can't really see them, and he has a great old time doing those things. nothing else matters. Oddly he self rewards at the teeter.

People are way to quick to enter the melt down/tantrum zone. Agility has been for the 20+ years I've been involved, a constantly evolving sport. It will continue to change and grow as all sports do. I for one embrace it. (even when at first i don't like it)
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on June 19, 2018, 10:17:58 AM
I have 4 dogs.  2 that do the teeter without an issue and 2 that don't do it at all.  To be fair, the 2 that don't do the teeter, I never really trained it either, they didn't like it so why bother if we are never going to use it.  Of the 2 that do it, the older one was taught back in 2009-2010 or so.  She never sees it in competition because we only do NADAC, but last year we went to a demo and she went over it with no issues.  She is not a super fast dog and is very steady on her feet so she knew to wait for it to go down before leaving.  The other dog is not quite 3.  We train where there is a teeter and I have a baby teeter in the back yard.  She learned on the baby teeter and it was her favorite piece of equipment in the yard for a long time.  When we started in class with the teeter, she did it, but the noise AFTER she was running away terrified her and she became afraid of the teeter.  We trained through it, and she is fine now and her performance is getting far better and faster.  2 weeks ago, we did an AKC trial for the first time.  They had a Clip and Go teeter and I was really impressed with it.  There was no crash at the end and the descent was slow and steady.  It did take longer for the smaller dogs, but it wasn't too bad.  I only saw one dog in open and novice have issues and fly off.  IMO he shouldn't have been out on the course anyway because he was totally out of control.  He had a ton of speed but he was also crashing bars, moving weave poles and took a flying leap off the a-frame.  I watched some of the elite level (smaller dogs) and didn't really see issues with it there either. 
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: KarissaKS on June 19, 2018, 10:36:30 AM
I love the Clip & Go teeter! Kizzy started having trial teeter issues after a spectacular fly-off at a trial a couple of years ago. All of our AKC trials in this area of TN use the Clip & Go teeter and, thanks to the consistency, Kizzy is finally back to doing her teeter at trials again. Until we went to tryouts in MN this spring, and by run 3 she was leaving the side of the teeter again.... (not a Clip & Go, obviously)  :o  Thankfully at her first trial back home on the Clip & Go she was fine again.

What is this "pneumatic" teeter that NADAC is testing?
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Chris Nelson on June 19, 2018, 11:21:52 AM
Pneumatic teeter is the clip n go design


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Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: garypaula on June 19, 2018, 12:51:09 PM
I'm not saying I want the teeter to come back in NADAC, but I watched a video of the "new" teeter and it was impressive.  It really seemed to level the playing field for all sizes of dogs.  I would encourage people to go look at the Clip & Go teeter on YouTube.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on June 19, 2018, 04:32:59 PM
I love having the variety back.  I think TG was more fun with the 3 contact obstacles in the past and always wanted it back,  and it makes for an interesting challenge in distance challenges... if it's ever put in there.  AKC did teeters in FAST when I did it years ago.  Again, I look forward and hope to see it back in a future "premier" class!!
My young boy Tripp, was terrified of it for quite awhile until I did quite a bit of training on it for the Border Collie Nationals.  Now I can't keep him off of it.  He'll run over and do it on his own, "look at me, look what I did!!!!" And, he keeps repeating it.  It's so cute!!!  Again, I bought my friend's teeter just because my dogs love it and I think it's good for some core balance work. 
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Sheila & the Shelties on July 06, 2018, 12:22:04 AM
 I've read everything Chris and Amanda had to say. And I understand it would be in a separate class, but without knowing more about the specifics about that, I can't comment on that. But I am one of those that would not be happy to see the teeter come back. Perhaps my mind could be changed. But I saw a lot of problems I don't think can be addressed by pneumatic Teeter. It seemed to me the small dogs were at the disadvantage on the Teeter, not the large dogs. And then there's always the issue of getting the equipment if you want to practice on it. I had a teacher at one time, but it's long gone. And it seems overtime that I bought equipment that disappeared in a year or two, and the expense can add up.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Chris Nelson on July 06, 2018, 04:44:50 AM
The small dogs werenít the reason why the teeter went away.  It wasnít a safety issue for them.


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Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: John H. Gooldy on July 07, 2018, 04:13:56 PM
Lorrie I was sad to see the teeter go away as well, but since itís been gone from NADAC for some time thereís a whole bunch of dogs that are older and have never been on a teeter.  For my 8 year old dog she has only been on it sporadically in class which has actually caused her to be afraid of the teeter so we donít do it anymore.  FWIW a club we belong to bought one of the new teeters so I tried her on it a half dozen times and it was awesome!  Typically she would go on it once and get slammed to the ground and then not go on it again.  That did not happen with the new teeter.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: AgilityJeff on July 09, 2018, 04:15:32 AM
I was happy to see the Teeter go away for many reasons and it seemed like a really good thing for our dogs.  If the teeter could return as a safer, more comfortable piece of equipment for the dogs and could be included in some optional way at first, I certainly would be open to that.

For those who can "my dog has never seen one", OK.  That's what we have been hearing about hoops and barrels for almost a decade.  Somehow most those dogs who never saw hoops and barrels are now doing them.  And best of all, those dogs who have never seen a teeter before have no bad history with the piece of equipment ... so you have the advantage of showing it to them fresh & new, train it right and make it a fun / safe experience for them!

But again, my thumbs up is based on two factors.  It must be in some way optional at first, and it has to be safer / more comfortable for the dogs than traditional teeters were.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Sheila & the Shelties on July 17, 2018, 03:27:36 AM
The small dogs werenít the reason why the teeter went away.  It wasnít a safety issue for them.


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What was the issue then with the Teeter in small dogs? Or why is there no issue? It seems to me they were more jump offs or fly offs by the smaller dogs because their weight did not tilt the cheater smoothly. Or when it hit the ground, it would bounce a little dog right off it.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Laura Anne Welch on July 17, 2018, 04:42:41 PM
Chris, what was the exact reason that the teeter was taken out of NADAC?  I heard that it was because there was no way to ensure a consistent rate of drop and that the concussion on the dog's front end was an issue,, but never heard it confirmed.  Maybe Sharon posted why and I missed the post.  Also, as long as I have the forum to question, I never understood why the tire was eliminated after the break away teeter had been devised to avoid dogs getting hung up on the tire?
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Chris Nelson on July 18, 2018, 12:39:30 PM
The issue was mainly the concussion.

In order to allow the teeter to even be able to drop for the small dogs it meant it had very little counter weight for the large dogs.   And since people train their dogs to run to the tip of the teeter and slam it down, it causes a LOT of strain on the dogs joints.

You could counter weight it, but then it becomes an issue of having it being accurate across multiple trials.    I'm sure Sharon can chime in if I missed some other key points as well, since I will be honest in that I don't remember that period too well :)

I can testify that even a breakaway tire, while a great improvement, is still a pretty bad obstacle.    Speaking from experience of having my own dog nearly choked when she got hung up in one.      The circle breaking away is great, but that doesn't stop a dog from getting hung up in the chains supporting that circle.    Even as recently as last year I had seen a video of a dog getting caught up in the chains and causing a not so great injury.
Is it worth the risk having that obstacle, for what purpose?    If we want to test jumping we can do that on a jump.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on July 21, 2018, 04:11:44 PM
So glad the tire is not coming back.  Not a fan of the tire. Seen too many issues with it.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Sara Langston on July 21, 2018, 05:56:05 PM
Instead of the teeter, what about something like the old swinging bridge to test how dogs react to movement under their feet.  I, personally, never competed while the swinging bridge was used, however, I have heard people talk about it.  Thoughts anyone??? 

Sara
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Laura Anne Welch on July 23, 2018, 06:39:11 PM
First, thanks for the explanations about the teeter and the tire.  The swinging bridge is used in UKC.  It is a bridge like those you see on kids' playgrounds, slatted, but slatted closely together, and suspended from  a strong support frame. It jiggles and moves, but doesn't really swing.  There is a swinging plank in UKC that does move much more.  I don't know of any other venue that uses the swinging plank.  Maybe they did in the past, but not since I have done agility, and that since 2003.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: HarryMelamed on July 30, 2018, 01:42:58 PM
Although, I'm headed for retirement, Stanley is and has always been open to finding a new more capable handler.   If so, he in no uncertain terms, thinks that a Teeter is extremely dangerous and super duper scary!!!  And he would be most sad it one ever came to NADAC.  Even in retirement.

Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: pgmsl on August 06, 2018, 01:49:56 AM
The thing I dislike about the teeter (besides the concussion, which I agree with) is that the 12' plank + 24" fulcrum make it look very similar to a dogwalk (esp. a slatless dogwalk) from the dog's perspective.  I have witnessed several dogs (mostly smaller ones) stop in the upper part of the dogwalk ramp, waiting to see if it moves.  I have also had a dog make the more unfortunate mistake of thinking the teeter was a dogwalk and running full speed right off the end of it.  Luckily he was not badly injured, but his confidence was so shaken that he would not go near either obstacle for months.  It took 2 years of remedial training to get it back, and still each straight-on approach he would run past the ramp far enough to be sure which obstacle it was, then circle back and take it.  The teeter is an interesting obstacle from the motion control perspective, but I fail to understand why the venues that still have it insist on keeping the high fulcrum for the teeter, when so many other obstacles have been modified for safety (A-frame height, jump heights, weave pole spacing, tire, chute length, etc).  It would be a much safer obstacle, and still provide the motion-control challenge, with the fulcrum set at 12" (or lower) instead of 24".
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Chris Nelson on August 06, 2018, 05:36:36 AM
The thing I dislike about the teeter (besides the concussion, which I agree with) is that the 12' plank + 24" fulcrum make it look very similar to a dogwalk (esp. a slatless dogwalk) from the dog's perspective.  I have witnessed several dogs (mostly smaller ones) stop in the upper part of the dogwalk ramp, waiting to see if it moves.  I have also had a dog make the more unfortunate mistake of thinking the teeter was a dogwalk and running full speed right off the end of it.  Luckily he was not badly injured, but his confidence was so shaken that he would not go near either obstacle for months.  It took 2 years of remedial training to get it back, and still each straight-on approach he would run past the ramp far enough to be sure which obstacle it was, then circle back and take it.  The teeter is an interesting obstacle from the motion control perspective, but I fail to understand why the venues that still have it insist on keeping the high fulcrum for the teeter, when so many other obstacles have been modified for safety (A-frame height, jump heights, weave pole spacing, tire, chute length, etc).  It would be a much safer obstacle, and still provide the motion-control challenge, with the fulcrum set at 12" (or lower) instead of 24".


I completely agree.

We did play around awhile back with a lowered teeter, and I really liked it.   Even the dogs who did the worst case scenario performance,  which is running to the end of the ramp and riding it down,  had very little concussion.   


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Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on August 06, 2018, 12:49:15 PM
Do you mean this?
Linda
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Suzy Winkle on August 06, 2018, 06:19:47 PM
Personally, I think it is awesome that NADAC is revisiting and doing some testing with the teeter - regardless of the outcome. To me it shows that NADAC is committed to being relevant in the agility world and not afraid to revisit past decisions.

I also think it's great people express their opinion on the topic!

While not advocating for a return of the teeter, per se, I would also welcome the teeter if it were to return. Since I know NADAC is concerned about safety, I would expect it would be a version of the teeter I would be comfortable asking my dogs to perform in the "special class" that might include the teeter. I would also strongly welcome an opportunity to train in the ring with the teeter. To me, this idea sounds like a win!

Thank you Chris and company for continuing to think about possibilities and make decisions thoughtfully!
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Billie Rosen on August 06, 2018, 06:33:43 PM
I think making a teeter with a 12" fulcrum or some other very different fulcrum than the teeters in use in other venues would discourage those of us who love doing multiple venues, and it would definitely discourage people from other venues to coming out and trying NADAC, which is an expressed goal in the recent announced rule changes.  Better to do without than to make it a baby teeter.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Chris Nelson on August 06, 2018, 07:33:38 PM
Actually we found all the dogs did the lower teeter  with no issues.   They all got it on the first try quite nicely,  and that was after running over a full height teeter multiple times. 

Itís more of a perception issue for handlers then an issue for the dogs


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Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Shirlene Clark on August 06, 2018, 08:24:51 PM
The thing I dislike about the teeter (besides the concussion, which I agree with) is that the 12' plank + 24" fulcrum make it look very similar to a dogwalk (esp. a slatless dogwalk) from the dog's perspective.  I have witnessed several dogs (mostly smaller ones) stop in the upper part of the dogwalk ramp, waiting to see if it moves.  I have also had a dog make the more unfortunate mistake of thinking the teeter was a dogwalk and running full speed right off the end of it.  Luckily he was not badly injured, but his confidence was so shaken that he would not go near either obstacle for months.  It took 2 years of remedial training to get it back, and still each straight-on approach he would run past the ramp far enough to be sure which obstacle it was, then circle back and take it.  The teeter is an interesting obstacle from the motion control perspective, but I fail to understand why the venues that still have it insist on keeping the high fulcrum for the teeter, when so many other obstacles have been modified for safety (A-frame height, jump heights, weave pole spacing, tire, chute length, etc).  It would be a much safer obstacle, and still provide the motion-control challenge, with the fulcrum set at 12" (or lower) instead of 24".


I completely agree.

We did play around awhile back with a lowered teeter, and I really liked it.   Even the dogs who did the worst case scenario performance,  which is running to the end of the ramp and riding it down,  had very little concussion.   


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I just finished re-habilitating a very young papillon who mistook a teeter for the dog walk.  She had never been on a teeter and got a terrible fright.  Following the incident she refused to go on a dog walk at all.  It took a lot of time and patience and work with her owner to get that little dogs confidence back.  We were successful but it wasnít easy.

Shirlene
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Amy McGovern on August 06, 2018, 08:31:54 PM
Actually we found all the dogs did the lower teeter  with no issues.   They all got it on the first try quite nicely,  and that was after running over a full height teeter multiple times. 

Itís more of a perception issue for handlers then an issue for the dogs


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Agreed with this.  The teacup teeter is lower and the dogs I see generally have no issues with it.  Yes, the dogs are "smaller" dogs but teacup takes up to 16 or 20" these days (depends on the club) so the dogs are not just tiny. 

-Amy
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: KellyDittmar on August 12, 2018, 07:46:05 PM
Actually we found all the dogs did the lower teeter  with no issues.   They all got it on the first try quite nicely,  and that was after running over a full height teeter multiple times. 

Itís more of a perception issue for handlers then an issue for the dogs

And we all know the world today... there's more complaining from people who are afraid and won't try it than from those who have done it successfully...

I think making a teeter with a 12" fulcrum or some other very different fulcrum than the teeters in use in other venues would discourage those of us who love doing multiple venues, and it would definitely discourage people from other venues to coming out and trying NADAC, which is an expressed goal in the recent announced rule changes.  Better to do without than to make it a baby teeter.

I agree with this 100% - you'd be more likely to drive people away than bring them in if they are worried that this different teeter will mess with their current teeter performance.

Kelly from MN
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Jodi Schmidt on August 23, 2018, 10:12:10 AM
The issue was mainly the concussion.

In order to allow the teeter to even be able to drop for the small dogs it meant it had very little counter weight for the large dogs.   And since people train their dogs to run to the tip of the teeter and slam it down, it causes a LOT of strain on the dogs joints.

You could counter weight it, but then it becomes an issue of having it being accurate across multiple trials.    I'm sure Sharon can chime in if I missed some other key points as well, since I will be honest in that I don't remember that period too well :)

I can testify that even a breakaway tire, while a great improvement, is still a pretty bad obstacle.    Speaking from experience of having my own dog nearly choked when she got hung up in one.      The circle breaking away is great, but that doesn't stop a dog from getting hung up in the chains supporting that circle.    Even as recently as last year I had seen a video of a dog getting caught up in the chains and causing a not so great injury.
Is it worth the risk having that obstacle, for what purpose?    If we want to test jumping we can do that on a jump.

^^^^ This right here, what Chris said about the Tire is so accurate ! I agree with this 100%. Itís not worth it at all imo ! Safety comes first for me and this is why I love NADAC so much.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: John H. Gooldy on August 27, 2018, 04:39:05 PM
Chris are you looking at the clip and go teeter? We have used it and it is quality but pricey.
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: James Bell on September 21, 2018, 04:47:23 AM
As Chris described, the main issue was concussion and career ending injury, or IOW the issue was crappy training due to crappy criteria.

I've said for over a decade that the only way to make it safe was to CHANGE THE CRITERIA. Shorten the contact patch drastically (or reverse it), then if your dog has even a toenail in the contact area BEFORE the teeter touches ground, your dog faulted the obstacle. This enforces HANDLING and TRAINING of the obstacle. Dog must handle the teeter safely, tipping it in a reasonable manner, before they may leave the obstacle without fault. Tada! No more flyoffs, no more having to screw around with weights to deal with different weight dogs. Just a safe but fun obstacle. IMNSHO. :-)

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Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on September 21, 2018, 12:33:18 PM
As Chris described, the main issue was concussion and career ending injury, or IOW the issue was crappy training due to crappy criteria.

I've said for over a decade that the only way to make it safe was to CHANGE THE CRITERIA. Shorten the contact patch drastically (or reverse it), then if your dog has even a toenail in the contact area BEFORE the teeter touches ground, your dog faulted the obstacle. This enforces HANDLING and TRAINING of the obstacle. Dog must handle the teeter safely, tipping it in a reasonable manner, before they may leave the obstacle without fault. Tada! No more flyoffs, no more having to screw around with weights to deal with different weight dogs. Just a safe but fun obstacle. IMNSHO. :-)

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You can't fault dogs for being in the contact area.  My small dog who only weighs around 11 lbs HAS to go to the VERY end of the teeter in order for it to tip for him.  Some people teach their dog to go to the end and ride it down for medium size dogs.  That is what my 25 lb dog does and she doesn't hit hard.  I understand handling it in a reasonable manner, but that was why it was taken away in the first place.  People were complaining that they were being faulted even though their dog hit the yellow.  They were sending their large dogs to the end and the teeter was slamming down. 

Secondly, if you have a difference in the teeter from other organizations, you will have issues with that.  There are already issues because of the no slats and the fact that some clubs only have a white stripe on the bottom of the A-frame.  I realize it is a training issue, but if they don't have to deal with it in other venues, then why bother with NADAC? 

The teeter itself isn't the issue, the issue is the difference in the teeters throughout clubs.  There is no consistency in how fast or hard they descend.  The Clip and Go teeter that I saw eliminated that issue. 
 
Title: Re: Teeter
Post by: Chris Nelson on September 21, 2018, 02:07:00 PM
Itís important to note the clip and go teeter does nothing to regulate the drop rate.

It only eliminates the board whip from a teeter slamming down.   The concussion and drop speed is no different then any other teeter.


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