NADAC Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: KarissaKS on September 04, 2018, 01:12:49 PM

Title: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: KarissaKS on September 04, 2018, 01:12:49 PM
Just a request to any judges, scribes, timers..... When there is a timer malfunction during someone's run, especially a clean run, can you please give the exhibitor the option to take a Q with SCT or to re-run the course for a time? In an organization where speed counts and some of us are going for the P runs, many of us would like the chance to post an actual time. If you don't let the exhibitor know, they are unlikely to find out until the results are posted and it's too late to do anything about it. A quick heads up as we leave the ring would be appreciated, and then we can let you know which option we choose.
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: BeckyAH on September 04, 2018, 05:34:57 PM
That is exactly what happened the one time there was a problem with one of my runs - and I really appreciated the heads up. I did take SCT for that one, because it wasn't one that was particularly important to me, but I would have chosen differently under other circumstances and knew it.

So, yes.  Agreed.
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: Scott Casino on September 04, 2018, 11:02:38 PM
NADAC does not allow re-runs for time (in order to get a DRI). But you do earn your Q and you receive standard course time.

In the rare situation a re-run is offered, it would only be for runs where a team received zero course faults but it is uncertain whether they completed the course under SCT. In other words, the re-run would determine whether or not the team earns a Q.
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: danforth on September 05, 2018, 05:48:13 AM
So if we show a Q for an Elite jumpers run, but no DRI, does that mean there was a timer issue?

Isabel

Sent from my KFASWI using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: KarissaKS on September 05, 2018, 06:20:30 AM
NADAC does not allow re-runs for time (in order to get a DRI). But you do earn your Q and you receive standard course time.

In the rare situation a re-run is offered, it would only be for runs where a team received zero course faults but it is uncertain whether they completed the course under SCT. In other words, the re-run would determine whether or not the team earns a Q.

Is this published somewhere? How is that fair to the team on the field, that they are penalized for a timer malfunction? I have had timer malfunctions in other organizations and have ALWAYS been given the option of a re-run for time. I would think that the benefit of the doubt would always be passed along to the exhibitor in these cases (making someone re-run because you don't think they made time, that just seems wrong) -- but teams going for DRIs on every run should be given the opportunity on every run. I was the first dog on the line and there were timer issues. I understand this happens, but it's actually against NADAC rules to re-run for time?? Not fair at all. If I posted a fast, smooth, clean run I deserve to get a DRI for that.
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: Richard Wolfe on September 05, 2018, 06:58:02 AM
So if we show a Q for an Elite jumpers run, but no DRI, does that mean there was a timer issue?

Isabel

Sent from my KFASWI using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.
If that's the case, the results would show the dog's run time the same as SCT.
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: BeckyAH on September 05, 2018, 08:17:03 AM

...There was not a doubt in anyone's mind we made course time for that run.  It was regular, with an 8" dog, at over 4 YPS for the previous run and the second one (with the timer fault) was faster.   There might have been question in the sense that *I* tripped the timer before we started so who knows where the dog's actual start time was,  but it was pretty clearly well under SCT.

If this is a rule, I (and at least one judge) was clearly not aware of it.
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: Jeannie Biggers on September 05, 2018, 08:39:16 AM
I think before everyone gets all up in arms and angry, we should wait and let the NADAC office chime in. 

I will say as a judge for several years, the few people that this has happened to under me, they were fine with taking their Q and SCT.  I have yet to have someone upset that they did not get a time and happy to get that Q.  I am not saying this is a rule, but this is how I have personally handled it in the past without anyone being upset with me.

Now I do totally understand wanting those DRI's, trust me I like those as well :)  But just like a contact, the agility Gods takith some and givith some. 



Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: Richard Wolfe on September 05, 2018, 09:37:45 AM
I think before everyone gets all up in arms and angry, we should wait and let the NADAC office chime in. 

I will say as a judge for several years, the few people that this has happened to under me, they were fine with taking their Q and SCT.  I have yet to have someone upset that they did not get a time and happy to get that Q.  I am not saying this is a rule, but this is how I have personally handled it in the past without anyone being upset with me.

Now I do totally understand wanting those DRI's, trust me I like those as well :)  But just like a contact, the agility Gods takith some and givith some.
Exactly!
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: Carole & Pat Daggett on September 05, 2018, 10:34:19 AM

So if we show a Q for an Elite jumpers run, but no DRI, does that mean there was a timer issue?

Isabel

If no DRI is showing in the results the file for that trial has probably not been merged yet. wait a little while and recheck.

Pat Daggett
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: KarissaKS on September 05, 2018, 10:47:53 AM
I will say as a judge for several years, the few people that this has happened to under me, they were fine with taking their Q and SCT.  I have yet to have someone upset that they did not get a time and happy to get that Q.

And for the majority of my runs for the majority of my dogs, I have and will happily take SCT. For my other dogs, getting 100+ DRI was a happy surprise that I would find when the results were posted online -- but I never had expectations of them accumulating to a speed star award. This dog is different. If we'd had any bobbles on course -- a run-by or refusal, or big wide turns -- then I wouldn't care, either. But it was a run that likely would have netted him 100+ (but we'll never know, since it wasn't recorded). My dogs have earned plenty of Qs in their careers, I have a bigger goal in sight at the moment and SCT doesn't move me towards that goal.

I am definitely waiting for the NADAC office to chime in on this one to clarify if this is a rule or not. It doesn't appear to be widely known if it is.
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: mstomel on September 05, 2018, 11:35:49 AM
NADAC does not allow re-runs for time (in order to get a DRI). But you do earn your Q and you receive standard course time.

In the rare situation a re-run is offered, it would only be for runs where a team received zero course faults but it is uncertain whether they completed the course under SCT. In other words, the re-run would determine whether or not the team earns a Q.
Is this published somewhere? How is that fair to the team on the field, that they are penalized for a timer malfunction?


This would be the one very few times when I feel that this isn't a "team" issue. Everything in agility is about the team and I think people forget that, but I have yet to meet a dog that cares about his DRI.

And here I thought that volunteering as a timer would be the easy job I couldn't screw up. ;)
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: dogrsqr on September 05, 2018, 12:12:18 PM
If someone were given the chance to rerun for a time because they are shooting for DRIs over 100 would they then be faulted if they dropped a bar? If not it seems that this would be a freebie to push for more speed.

Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: Chris Nelson on September 05, 2018, 12:39:17 PM
This is something we can consider for the future.
But as it stands right now re runs are only for situations when it's questioned for whether a dog made time or not, not for a DRI.

As others have mentioned it does suck at times, but you win some and you lose some.    It hasn't been a monumental issue in the over 15 years that DRI's have been around, so I doubt it needs much revision.
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: Foomin Z on September 05, 2018, 12:57:42 PM
Just a request to any judges, scribes, timers..... When there is a timer malfunction during someone's run, especially a clean run, can you please give the exhibitor the option to take a Q with SCT or to re-run the course for a time? In an organization where speed counts and some of us are going for the P runs, many of us would like the chance to post an actual time. If you don't let the exhibitor know, they are unlikely to find out until the results are posted and it's too late to do anything about it. A quick heads up as we leave the ring would be appreciated, and then we can let you know which option we choose.
What is a "P run?"
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: KarissaKS on September 05, 2018, 02:02:18 PM
If someone were given the chance to rerun for a time because they are shooting for DRIs over 100 would they then be faulted if they dropped a bar? If not it seems that this would be a freebie to push for more speed.

In other organizations, re-runs for time do not accumulate any faults. It is only to record a time. If someone is pushing for speed it is just as likely that they will pull their dog off a jump or send them off course (both taking up more time) as it is they will knock a bar. If someone wants to push "harder" on a re-run and take that risk then that should be up to them, they already proved that they could run the course clean. How does someone else's DRI affect your run?

P run = Platinum   In your records they are designated with P1, P2, P3, etc. Runs with a DRI of 100+.

Chris, I think it's something that probably doesn't matter to a lot of people, but for some it matters a lot. I have zero control over there being a timer issue. All I'm asking is that someone lets me know and gives me the chance to re-run for time instead of walking up to the book and seeing that my dog posted a 3 yps run time.
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: Chris Nelson on September 06, 2018, 02:58:48 PM
I definitely agree it's no handlers fault for a timer malfunction.   And it doesn't feel quite right to deny someone the chance at one of those runs because of something out of their control.   

We can definitely discuss it in the coming months and it could be one of those things that gets put to a vote in December for those January announcements :)
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: bhodges865 on October 03, 2018, 09:49:00 AM
If someone were given the chance to rerun for a time because they are shooting for DRIs over 100 would they then be faulted if they dropped a bar? If not it seems that this would be a freebie to push for more speed.

Or....if they were allowed a re-run, who's to say they will run the exact same path.  So many trials are double-run formats and usually if you Q on both runs, your 2nd run is faster.
Title: Re: PSA - When the timer malfunctions.....
Post by: Becky Woodruff on October 04, 2018, 11:50:09 AM
Many years ago it was allowed to run for time only, unless the dog had faulted, then there really was no point.  The biggest problem was that handlers would drive insanely hard, missing contacts, blowing out of weave poles and knocking jumps.  Not only was it ugly, it was not safe.
I agree that it is not the handlers fault if the clock malfunctions, but instead of running for time only, perhaps they could be granted a rerun even if the first time around they had no faults.
Yes, they will likely push harder and may get a faster time but like someone above said, in a double run formatted trial that often is the case.
The handler would have the option of taking a Q and SCT or rerunning and risking faults.

Just my 2 cents knowing the history

Becky