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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chris Nelson on November 10, 2018, 09:58:34 AM

Title: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 10, 2018, 09:58:34 AM
Champs updates:




Regionals:



Trainers Seminar Info:
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on November 10, 2018, 02:12:53 PM
Regarding to Stakes Qualifications:   
I do not think that the stakes qualifications should be changed.  The program is growing... please do not make any adjustments to the qualifications.    Just because a team is qualified for a higher level does not mean that we can/should/want to run at a higher level at champs.     I believe that JP is qualified for superstakes.   This does not mean that we have the skills to compete in a small box at champs for 8 rounds in a row.   Until I can get 8 regular bonus' in a row at trials (actually more than 8), then I personally do not believe I am qualified or have the skills to enter superstakes.   Same goes for Silver Stakes...... until I can be consistent getting regular bonus' in a row, then I do not want to compete at a higher level that requires even more distance skills that I feel I have over 8 runs at a national event.   
Please post the requirements soon so  I can determine my plans. If I am forced to compete at a higher level than I believe I am have skills for, then I will not enter stakes at champs and may re-evaluate my goals with my dogs.    I have worked really hard to obtain big distance skills to work bonus' but just because I can get a few regular bonus' over the year, does not mean I have the skills needed to compete at champs at high  distance level.   
While I enjoyed having placements at champs, I would much rather go back to not having any placements and just striving to achieve the bonus cup so we are not competing against each other if that is the impetus for this change.
I really have enjoyed running in stakes so I hope the qualifications do not change.   Starter Stakes is perfect for me and it fits within my comfort zone of distance handling over 8 rounds at a National Event.   
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: scdogdoc on November 11, 2018, 07:37:28 PM
Please consider dividing the pre-champs group into a standard and veterans or double digit class. It is the largest class and it is not the NADAC normal to have no separation for the older dogs.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 12, 2018, 09:16:30 AM
Please consider dividing the pre-champs group into a standard and veterans or double digit class. It is the largest class and it is not the NADAC normal to have no separation for the older dogs.

Pre-Champs is run like a regular trial.   So there could be a Veterans split, but Double digit isn't something that happens anywhere else besides Champs
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 12, 2018, 09:35:08 AM
Regarding to Stakes Qualifications:   
I do not think that the stakes qualifications should be changed.  The program is growing... please do not make any adjustments to the qualifications.    Just because a team is qualified for a higher level does not mean that we can/should/want to run at a higher level at champs.     I believe that JP is qualified for superstakes.   This does not mean that we have the skills to compete in a small box at champs for 8 rounds in a row.   Until I can get 8 regular bonus' in a row at trials (actually more than 8), then I personally do not believe I am qualified or have the skills to enter superstakes.   Same goes for Silver Stakes...... until I can be consistent getting regular bonus' in a row, then I do not want to compete at a higher level that requires even more distance skills that I feel I have over 8 runs at a national event.   
Please post the requirements soon so  I can determine my plans. If I am forced to compete at a higher level than I believe I am have skills for, then I will not enter stakes at champs and may re-evaluate my goals with my dogs.    I have worked really hard to obtain big distance skills to work bonus' but just because I can get a few regular bonus' over the year, does not mean I have the skills needed to compete at champs at high  distance level.   
While I enjoyed having placements at champs, I would much rather go back to not having any placements and just striving to achieve the bonus cup so we are not competing against each other if that is the impetus for this change.
I really have enjoyed running in stakes so I hope the qualifications do not change.   Starter Stakes is perfect for me and it fits within my comfort zone of distance handling over 8 rounds at a National Event.   


I can understand the stress of a harder competition, but the fact is the qualifications are there for a reason.     It's the same reason we never used to have wording or rules saying that a Elite dog couldn't enter the Pre-Elite division, we never thought it would be an issue.   But then it was and the wording and rules had to change.

With the increased participation of the bonus program this is now something we have to worry about.    We've never had anyone in the history of the bonus program qualify for a higher level but enter a lower one, so we never had to worry about it.   

But with a lot more people attempting bonuses we want to nip this before it becomes an issue.    We wouldn't allow an Elite level dog to run in Pre-Elite and this is no different.      I'm very sure everyone will rise to the challenge quite well.    And like I mentioned it's never been an issue for many many years for people to enter at the level they qualified for.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Cathie Cage on November 12, 2018, 11:45:23 AM
I have a question Chris regarding this rule. Is this just for the levels of stakes? Or if you qualify for any stakes classes you must run in stakes and not regular.

Thanks, Cathie Cage
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Amanda Nelson on November 12, 2018, 12:07:47 PM
I have a question Chris regarding this rule. Is this just for the levels of stakes? Or if you qualify for any stakes classes you must run in stakes and not regular.

Thanks, Cathie Cage


This would just be for the levels within stakes, you won't be required to enter stakes. :-)

Amanda


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Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on November 12, 2018, 01:44:54 PM
I have qualified for higher levels stakes before.  This year JP was qualified for silver stakes but I chose to Run in starter stakes.  While I did well, I still had over 50 faults so I do not think I am qualified to run at a higher level.  If I won with only few faults than rock on I would move up   But I had over 50 faults. 

Again only getting 2 regular bonus over the year does not mean one is really qualified to run in superstakes.  I think the requirement should be increased drastically then.  To run in silver stakes you need 10 bonus and 20 to run in super. 

In any event, any changes should happen for 2020 not 2019.  We have been running for  almost 4 months now under the assumption that the qualifications would be the same as this year which has been stated many times. I do not think it is fair to change qualification rules after the year has begun.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Marj Vincent on November 12, 2018, 02:54:10 PM
Lisa,

  An athlete proves himself all during the year and competes against the same level of athletes at any Championship or National event, dog , human, horse...whatever.  If a dog qualifies for a higher level because their skills have been proven at the trials, then the handler should ethically run in the higher level. It is why there are levels to begin with....to make the competition fair.

 Each and every handler has struggled at some point to even qualify for Champs.  If I qualified for Superstakes, I am absolutely running in Superstakes....I earned it and would be proud of it!

Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: MoabDiane on November 12, 2018, 04:34:29 PM
No stakes discussion from me!

But re the two rings:  I haven't been to the Ohio site, but am wondering if it's going to be anything like the Gillette set-up, where the two rings are pretty close together (even with all the equipment/scoring/etc. in-between), and therefore courses will be pretty similar (starting and finishing with hoop/contact).  I totally understand the reasoning behind doing it this way this year, but hope that the space available will allow a bit more variation in courses.  I actually liked the "specialty" courses (more jumps, or more weaves, etc.) in the past, and I think for a Championship event the ability to excel in a variety of types of courses is important.

Just my two cents' worth,
diane
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: BeckyAH on November 12, 2018, 04:45:07 PM
Do we have dates for Champs yet? (Not pre-trial and champs, just champs)?  I thought I saw it somewhere and cannot find it, now.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Marcy Matties on November 12, 2018, 04:52:36 PM
Do we have dates for Champs yet? (Not pre-trial and champs, just champs)?  I thought I saw it somewhere and cannot find it, now.

Oct. 10 - 13
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: BeckyAH on November 12, 2018, 05:30:05 PM
Do we have dates for Champs yet? (Not pre-trial and champs, just champs)?  I thought I saw it somewhere and cannot find it, now.

Oct. 10 - 13

Thank you so much!
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: JimmyS. on November 12, 2018, 05:54:52 PM
I have qualified for higher levels stakes before.  This year JP was qualified for silver stakes but I chose to Run in starter stakes.  While I did well, I still had over 50 faults so I do not think I am qualified to run at a higher level.  If I won with only few faults than rock on I would move up   But I had over 50 faults. 

Again only getting 2 regular bonus over the year does not mean one is really qualified to run in superstakes.  I think the requirement should be increased drastically then.  To run in silver stakes you need 10 bonus and 20 to run in super. 

In any event, any changes should happen for 2020 not 2019.  We have been running for  almost 4 months now under the assumption that the qualifications would be the same as this year which has been stated many times. I do not think it is fair to change qualification rules after the year has begun.
50 faults total over 8 stressful rounds at a National event is a measure of how ready you are to go to a higher level? I take that to mean that all the dogs (most of them) who got 10, 20, or more faults PER ROUND should have just stayed home?

20 bonuses for Super? So they should get a Purple Achievement Cup every year? Come on.......

The QUALIFICATIONS are not changing at all, just an update that you need to run what you qualified for, to match the Elite\Pre-Elite divisions. Very different.....
 


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Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on November 13, 2018, 03:44:52 AM
No need to attack my opinion or call me unethical.  Everyone has different measures of readiness and skills. Nowhere did I say that teams should stay home if they got more faults every year.   I am not comparing myself to any other team nor judging any other teams.    I am judging myself and my skill level.    JP has run in stakes 3 years and this year we finally felt like a good team over the 8 rounds.  And for the record, I just went back to count up my faults and I had 100 faults.  100 faults is alot of faults in my mind and is a measure that I am not ready to run in superstakes over 8 rounds.   I would have run him in Silver stakes next year and I feel we are ready. But there is a HUGE jump from starter stakes lines and superstakes lines.

Qualifications should change... 20 is an exaggeration ...but 2 is not enough..especially because one can get the 2 bonus' on the same course now.   Assuming the qualifications stay the same, JP and Tandem are qualified for superstakes because we ran the same course twice Round 1 and 2 the beginning of August.  Round 1 and Round 2 were 'my' kinda courses and I rocked it with them.  However, since then, tandem has not gotten a regular bonus and I have tried many and was unsuccessful.  Are we ready for superstakes..no way.   
 
I do not want to go to champs and my dog  and I fall apart because i am asking for too much distance 8 runs in a row.   I have seen that happen way too many times and I won't do it to my dogs.    8 runs in a row is very difficult from the superstakes line and just because I qualify with only 2 Regular Bonus sure doesn't mean I have the skills to do this.

My views are not about being able to win but to be able to stay connected with my dog.  My goal this year was to  get a  distance cup.  I was close last year.   The last few years stakes did not compete against each other so it really did not matter  as we were not competing against each other.   I would much rather go back to that and be able to run in a division I feel I have the skills for.

Again, we were told that the qualifications were not changing for 2019.    Any changes should occur for 2020.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Vicki Storrs on November 13, 2018, 10:08:01 AM
Please consider dividing the pre-champs group into a standard and veterans or double digit class. It is the largest class and it is not the NADAC normal to have no separation for the older dogs.
I have a sneaky suspicion this post was referring to pre-elite and NOT pre-Champs. Chris answered it as it was written, for pre-Champs. Scdogoic were you actually talking about pre-elite?
Vicki
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Kyle on November 13, 2018, 12:27:51 PM
About Stakes....

Being able to remember running Stakes when there was just one level, just one line, we got points by each obstacle we got and we all had to try it that way, I have my thoughts and opinions...  ;)

I can see what Lisa is saying and can understand her point of view. Please correct me if I have misunderstood: she feels the need to be able to achieve multiple bonus runs in a row at various trials in order to feel that she and her dog are prepared to run in whatever level she feels comfortable. Well, I can certainly understand that point of view. I'd like to be able to do that too. Buuuuut.... ;) There's a huge difference in the distances in a regular trial vs. Starter or even Silver Stakes. Major, massive differences. Getting a Bonus in any weekend trial in Regular is much farther in distance (and difficulty) than any Starter Stakes line or even a Silver Stakes line. So, getting Bonuses regularly, even a few in a row at weekend trials and then entering Starter Stakes really shouldn't be a stretch. It's only a small stretch (maybe) for Silver Stakes. Especially for someone like Lisa, who trains and works her dogs diligently and who can handle so well.

Staying connected to our dogs is always an option simply due to the fact that the Stakes courses are divided into sections with possible points. We can always choose to move out of our "designated" area to help our dog if losing connection may be an issue. By moving back to our "designated" space we can continue to get bonus points. (IOW, all is not lost.) That's a handler's choice and depends on how their dog is running at the moment or our knowledge of our dogs' strengths or weaknesses. Not every course is going to be "our" kind of course and they shouldn't be. The point of Championships is to challenge ourselves (and our dogs) in order to test us. It shouldn't be easy or a "given". Choosing to cross the line to help our dog, or keep "connection" makes us the better handler. Does that mean you shouldn't be in whatever class you qualified for? No. You did qualify for it, you deserve to be there, you have just chosen to lose a few points for the betterment of your team. You can still show off the amazing things your team can do in other sections of the course.

There's also an issue of number of trials available in different areas in order to try to qualify. For instance, the number of trials in my area (Southern CA) are dwindling. Increasing the number of Bonuses required might actually decrease interest in the program since the opportunities are vanishing.

There is a drawback, that I can see, to requiring entering the class you qualified for....this is on a completely personal level (like Lisa's). The DRI requirement for Super Stakes. My dogs will probably *never* get DRIs over 100 along with a Bonus. It's just our style of running (such as stopped contacts) and my 2 previous dogs just simply weren't that fast.  :( Were they Super Stakes distance/difficulty contenders - in my opinion, yes. Would I have entered Super Stakes - absolutely. I guess I kind of wish there were something like a Silver Stakes "B" class. For dogs who have either run in Silver Stakes more than once or who have won it but just don't make it into Super Stakes due to the DRI. It might just seem nicer (read: fairer) to not have them competing against first time Silver Stakes folks. It could even be done for the Starter Stakes - for those dogs who have competed in Starter Stakes previously but didn't make it into Silver. That's just a personal thought that the "powers that be" might consider...  ;D

I would like to thank the folks at NADAC in giving out placement ribbons for Stakes. When we didn't get them and we didn't have decent runs, it was kind of depressing to go home with *nothing*. So, many thanks for your generosity.  :) The Bonus Cups are a true gift! Many thanks for those beautiful trophies.

-Kyle

Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Foomin Z on November 13, 2018, 04:57:36 PM

In any event, any changes should happen for 2020 not 2019.  We have been running for  almost 4 months now under the assumption that the qualifications would be the same as this year which has been stated many times. I do not think it is fair to change qualification rules after the year has begun.
This happened during the qualification period for the 2017 champs as well. Small dogs suddenly got a lot more course time to qualify in runs... halfway through the qualification period. I know NADAC wants to slim down rule change periods to once or twice per year, but ANY rules that affect qualifying for champs should only take effect at the beginning of the qualification period for champs, not the beginning of the calendar year.

It might be a pain in the butt for the home office to think about champs two years ahead of time, but that makes it helpful for champs entrants to plan things too.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 14, 2018, 09:36:32 AM
No stakes discussion from me!

But re the two rings:  I haven't been to the Ohio site, but am wondering if it's going to be anything like the Gillette set-up, where the two rings are pretty close together (even with all the equipment/scoring/etc. in-between), and therefore courses will be pretty similar (starting and finishing with hoop/contact).  I totally understand the reasoning behind doing it this way this year, but hope that the space available will allow a bit more variation in courses.  I actually liked the "specialty" courses (more jumps, or more weaves, etc.) in the past, and I think for a Championship event the ability to excel in a variety of types of courses is important.

Just my two cents' worth,
diane

For 2019 we'll be putting up a solid 8 or 10 foot wall between the rings.  There isn't enough room to have our scoring area inside the rings like we did this year, so we'll need a pretty solid wall to separate the rings.

And yes because it will be a solid wall we can switch up the course designs a bit :)

Worth noting that the reasons we didn't have focus rounds this year was really more because of the world competition.
We don't like to throw out focus rounds on the first or last days, and the Friday and Saturday this year were the world competition, which also doesn't work to have focus rounds because it's just a regular trial weekend for the rest of the world, so having a course with 4 contacts or 4 weave entrances on a regular course is a bit much.

We're working on that too though, cause the focus rounds are nice to have.   We just might not have a bunch of them like we have in past years :)
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 14, 2018, 09:39:07 AM
Please consider dividing the pre-champs group into a standard and veterans or double digit class. It is the largest class and it is not the NADAC normal to have no separation for the older dogs.
I have a sneaky suspicion this post was referring to pre-elite and NOT pre-Champs. Chris answered it as it was written, for pre-Champs. Scdogoic were you actually talking about pre-elite?
Vicki
If the question is in regards to Pre-Elite it gets a little tricky.

I understand not all dogs progress at the same speed, but pre-elite really is supposed to be just an introduction to Champs for young dogs.   I would hate to shift so much focus onto a division that isn't supposed to be the highlight of the event.

We can definitely look into splitting divisions, as I agree the classes are pretty large.   But I really don't like it in my gut, but that hasn't stopped us from changing things in the past so who knows :)
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 14, 2018, 09:41:44 AM
Okay so in regards to all the bonus stuff.

It is what it is and won't be changing for this year.

There are some changes planned that will be announced in January to go into effect on August 1st for the 2020 qualifying year and it will quite honestly make this entire conversation outdated.

It's also worth noting that NO info has been posted about qualifications for 2019.   The only thing that has been said consistently is that Intro won't count towards qualifications, and there will be some adjustments to the bonus qualifications.  So we actually can change things if we want since no premium has been put out.     
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: KarissaKS on November 14, 2018, 10:29:18 AM

I understand not all dogs progress at the same speed, but pre-elite really is supposed to be just an introduction to Champs for young dogs.   I would hate to shift so much focus onto a division that isn't supposed to be the highlight of the event.


Based on the last two years, it almost seems that the Pre-Elite division is on trend to eclipse the regular (Elite) Champs entrants. It would be nice to maybe see a cap put on this, or to change the requirements to encourage more people to enter the regular division. You can qualify for the regular division of Champs with all Open Qs, so allowing folks to have up to 100 points in Elite Regular (and an unlimited number of Elite points in other classes) and still enter Pre-Elite seems a bit wrong.

Perhaps the Pre-Elite entry requirements should be geared more towards dogs who aren't in Elite yet, and find a way to encourage people to enter the regular division if they are so qualified. There is definitely a bit of cross-over in the requirements right now and I'm sure it leaves many people wondering which division they should enter. It might be helpful to draw a line and say, "If you meet these requirements you are in Elite" (that includes getting the requisite number of qualifiers from Open). People should be striving to qualify for Champs, not sandbagging and making the choice to move back down to Open Regular so that they don't go over 100 Elite Regular points.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Rosemary on November 14, 2018, 11:11:49 AM



Perhaps the Pre-Elite entry requirements should be geared more towards dogs who aren't in Elite yet, and find a way to encourage people to enter the regular division if they are so qualified. There is definitely a bit of cross-over in the requirements right now and I'm sure it leaves many people wondering which division they should enter. It might be helpful to draw a line and say, "If you meet these requirements you are in Elite" (that includes getting the requisite number of qualifiers from Open). People should be striving to qualify for Champs, not sandbagging and making the choice to move back down to Open Regular so that they don't go over 100 Elite Regular points.

I agree with this.  Having said that, there is that no mans land in between where a team strives to qualify for champs and misses either the jumpers or chances qualification by just 10 points.  That team is then not able to compete in either group.  I'm sure those teams would even prefer to run elite at trials, but doesn't want to completely disqualify themselves from being able to participate at all.

In the end, there will be something that someone doesn't like.  I think the powers that be do their best to make the event fun and fair and  expect the teams entering to do the right thing.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Amy McGovern on November 14, 2018, 11:40:50 AM
I was going to post about that no-mans-land also.  For me the issue is chances.  My dog isn't ready for open chances yet but she's in elite in all the games and open in regular (while we could move up as we have the title, I'm staying back trying to work on her focus).  Truthfully I'd love to move up to elite when I feel like her focus has improved.  But she really isn't ready for open chances so if I move up to elite regular, I put myself in that zone where I can't enter anything :(  We originally wanted to go for that new award that Chris announced in a video that requires 200 novice chances points and 230 elite regular but that award specifically means a dog can't go to champs.

-Amy
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: KarissaKS on November 14, 2018, 12:11:26 PM
Seeing as the distance component wasn't even a requirement at Champs this year (it was only factored in as "bonus" points), one could wonder if Chances even needs to be part of the qualifying requirements? Or say two (*edited to say oops, it's 4 now) Chances Qs at any level (other than Intro)?
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Amy McGovern on November 14, 2018, 12:15:27 PM
Yeah I was wondering that too.  I could handle aiming for 4 novice Qs!  And it could cut out the no-man's-land.  And if we achieve that superior novice title in chances, I will move to open chances.  But right now, she isn't ready for open-sized distance.  Spends too much time telling me off about what SHE thinks she needs to do :-P (we are working on that!)

-Amy
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 14, 2018, 12:23:58 PM
Good thoughts on pre elite versus elite.

I think we could definitely take a harder look at the qualifications for 2020 after getting some feedback from everyone over the next year


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Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: cheyaut on November 15, 2018, 12:51:10 AM
One of my dogs is now stuck in no mans land, too, because of chances. I took her this year, pre elite, and had a lot of fun (and she placed in several rounds). But now she's moved to elite in regular, so no more champs for her. Distance is NOT her thing, and while we are getting SOME, it's not enough for even most novice chances courses, and that's ok with me. She prefers me close, and I prefer to run happy dogs, so I allow her preference. I'm ok knowing she can't go to Champs anymore, and I'm glad she got to this year :)
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Marcy Matties on November 15, 2018, 05:21:36 AM
One of my dogs is now stuck in no mans land, too, because of chances. I took her this year, pre elite, and had a lot of fun (and she placed in several rounds). But now she's moved to elite in regular, so no more champs for her. Distance is NOT her thing, and while we are getting SOME, it's not enough for even most novice chances courses, and that's ok with me. She prefers me close, and I prefer to run happy dogs, so I allow her preference. I'm ok knowing she can't go to Champs anymore, and I'm glad she got to this year :)

If I was a dog I would want you to be my forever mother.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on November 15, 2018, 08:02:38 AM

I understand not all dogs progress at the same speed, but pre-elite really is supposed to be just an introduction to Champs for young dogs.   I would hate to shift so much focus onto a division that isn't supposed to be the highlight of the event.


Based on the last two years, it almost seems that the Pre-Elite division is on trend to eclipse the regular (Elite) Champs entrants. It would be nice to maybe see a cap put on this, or to change the requirements to encourage more people to enter the regular division. You can qualify for the regular division of Champs with all Open Qs, so allowing folks to have up to 100 points in Elite Regular (and an unlimited number of Elite points in other classes) and still enter Pre-Elite seems a bit wrong.

Perhaps the Pre-Elite entry requirements should be geared more towards dogs who aren't in Elite yet, and find a way to encourage people to enter the regular division if they are so qualified. There is definitely a bit of cross-over in the requirements right now and I'm sure it leaves many people wondering which division they should enter. It might be helpful to draw a line and say, "If you meet these requirements you are in Elite" (that includes getting the requisite number of qualifiers from Open). People should be striving to qualify for Champs, not sandbagging and making the choice to move back down to Open Regular so that they don't go over 100 Elite Regular points.

I do get this, but I also have a 3 year old dog that is still in Novice at this point, but is close to finishing up her Novice superior title.  The is NO way that she would be ready for the elite level at Champs with her current demeanor.  She is a good jumpers and weavers dog and is now in open in those and her distance is awesome when we are clicking, but again, her brain isn't where it needs to be a lot of the time and putting her in an elite level at champs probably wouldn't be good for her.  At least that is my thinking at this time.  It may change come August as that is 9 months away and maybe she will mature in that time. 

On the other hand, I do agree with the chances discussion, especially if we are going to start allowing people from other organizations start at the elite level in other games. They may have good dogs that just can't do the distance and it may deter them from competing if they can't go to Nationals.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 15, 2018, 11:21:00 AM
How would folks feel if instead of the 100 points in elite regular rule,  it was 100 points overall in regular, chances and Jumpers?


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Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: dogrsqr on November 15, 2018, 12:14:14 PM
Sounds good to me!

Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: mephalon on November 15, 2018, 01:19:53 PM
How would folks feel if instead of the 100 points in elite regular rule,  it was 100 points overall in regular, chances and Jumpers?


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Chris- could you expand on what this means and what levels it would apply to?    I don't understand what you mean when you say "100 points overall in regular, chances and jumpers".    Are you talking about 100 points overall in regular chances and jumpers from the elite level or from any level?   

thanks
M
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Amy McGovern on November 15, 2018, 01:43:46 PM
I think I like it but it depends on the clarification.  If you mean we could qualify with 100 points in elite jumpers (no small feat for us given how often she knocks bars!) and regular combined and not have to deal with open chances until she's ready, I'm 100% for it! 

-Amy
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 15, 2018, 02:22:50 PM
It would be cumulative.

So 50 in elite regular,  30 in elite jumpers and 20 in elite chances,  youíre in the elite division.




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Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: danforth on November 15, 2018, 05:43:06 PM
So if you are good at chances, but not fast enough to get any jumpers or many regular, you would qualify for elite champs, with not much experience with long courses.  Just a different issue.

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Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Lindsey Cooper on November 15, 2018, 08:13:21 PM
Considering all the courses from this year's champs were regular courses, I think the 100 points for Elite regular should stay. Maybe the chances/jumpers option can be looked at to possibly consider points from open or elite.

I remember years ago when teams had to have 250 lifetime points (as well as 100 regular for the year) in regular in order to qualify and that was tricky for my stakes BC who always struggled with regular! It was our challenge to work on those regular Q's so we could do well at champs.

Lindsey
www.mountaindogsports.com
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: JimmyS. on November 16, 2018, 02:17:02 AM
I am sure Chris will clarify tomorrow but i THINK he is talking about the cap for pre-elite, not the qualification for Elite.




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Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Amy McGovern on November 16, 2018, 07:34:57 AM
If it is the cap, that's a whole different story on my opinion.  I would disagree with that as a proposed cap while I liked it as a qualification.  I'll use my baby dog as an example.  We moved to elite in a game (tunnelers in her case) far before her brain was ready for anything other than novice regular.  But we started tunnels as our first obstacle and she loves tunnelers and since the course is the same and she's fast, there was no reason to not move up to elite with the titles (e.g. 3 novice Qs, 3 open Qs).  But she was then Q'ing in elite tunnelers while still in novice for most other classes.  But those games Qs don't make her suddenly ready for elite regular courses at champs.  She did well this year in pre-elite but was definitely not ready for regular elite courses (though I hope to be ready for next year!).

-Amy 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Marcy Matties on November 16, 2018, 09:37:38 AM
If it is the cap, that's a whole different story on my opinion.  I would disagree with that as a proposed cap while I liked it as a qualification.  I'll use my baby dog as an example.  We moved to elite in a game (tunnelers in her case) far before her brain was ready for anything other than novice regular.  But we started tunnels as our first obstacle and she loves tunnelers and since the course is the same and she's fast, there was no reason to not move up to elite with the titles (e.g. 3 novice Qs, 3 open Qs).  But she was then Q'ing in elite tunnelers while still in novice for most other classes.  But those games Qs don't make her suddenly ready for elite regular courses at champs.  She did well this year in pre-elite but was definitely not ready for regular elite courses (though I hope to be ready for next year!).

-Amy

If I'm interpreting Chris's post the way Jimmy thinks he means it.  It would mean that IF a dog had 50 Elite Regular points and 30 Elite Jumpers points and 20 Elite Chances points, then they would have to enter the Elite division and not the pre-elite division.  So having Elite Qs in tunnelers (or other games) would not be a deciding factor for having to enter Elite - just Elite Qs in the 3 core NATCH classes. 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Rosemary on November 16, 2018, 10:28:17 AM
This is getting confusing for me.  Would this mean that you could get more than 50 Elite Regular points, but would not be disqualified in pre-elite if you, for example, struggled with chances and could not get into elite chances (or jumpers)?  That would be a good way to shrink that no mans land.  Again, this wouldn't be until 2020, but I like the idea of not having a dog get pointed out to where they are "too good" for one and "not good enough" for the other. 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: dogrsqr on November 16, 2018, 10:53:01 AM
I took it to mean 100 points in any combination or from one of the 3 classes. 

Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Amy McGovern on November 16, 2018, 11:29:53 AM
I think I'll wait for Chris to clarify :) Confused!
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Jeannie Biggers on November 16, 2018, 12:48:57 PM
I think at this point we should stop posting to this post and wait for Chris to clarify what is going to actually be the requirement, even if it takes a few weeks.  I feel that everyone is getting way to confused by the assumptions that are being made.  :)
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 16, 2018, 04:23:36 PM
So let's keep in mind this was just an 'idea', not any kind of rule change or anything that's definitely happening :)

With that said it would strictly be a a way to disqualify folks from entering Pre-Elite when they don't truly have a Pre-Elite dog.

So if you have 200 points in Elite Chances, 200 points in Elite Jumpers, but you keep your dog in Open Regular so you can enter Pre-Elite.  Technically right now someone could do this.

By including Jumpers and Chances we could fix that.   It's not your qualification needed, strictly what would disqualify you from entering Pre-Elite with a dog who isn't truly belonging there.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Ed and Tres on November 16, 2018, 04:58:59 PM
So let's keep in mind this was just an 'idea', not any kind of rule change or anything that's definitely happening :)

With that said it would strictly be a a way to disqualify folks from entering Pre-Elite when they don't truly have a Pre-Elite dog.

So if you have 200 points in Elite Chances, 200 points in Elite Jumpers, but you keep your dog in Open Regular so you can enter Pre-Elite.  Technically right now someone could do this.

By including Jumpers and Chances we could fix that.   It's not your qualification needed, strictly what would disqualify you from entering Pre-Elite with a dog who isn't truly belonging there.

Actually for some dogs this could disqualify them more quickly than the 100 lifetime Elite regular Qs.

So I don't like this hypothetical change. Belle has qualified for Pre-Elite for 2019, she needs maybe 4 more Open Regular to get her Open Superior and then will move to Elite Regular, she already has 2 Elite Jumper Qs with the hypothetical change, if she got 8 Elite Regular Qs she would be in No Mans land, she's proven she can do Elite jumpers and likely will get more of them next Spring too.

As it is with 2018 qualification rules, we need to be careful she does not get 10 Elite Regular Qs before Sept 15, 2019 or she gets bumped to Elite(??) champs or disqualified(??) and she only has 1 Novice Chances Q on her report card.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: cheyaut on November 17, 2018, 04:51:49 AM
One of my dogs is now stuck in no mans land, too, because of chances. I took her this year, pre elite, and had a lot of fun (and she placed in several rounds). But now she's moved to elite in regular, so no more champs for her. Distance is NOT her thing, and while we are getting SOME, it's not enough for even most novice chances courses, and that's ok with me. She prefers me close, and I prefer to run happy dogs, so I allow her preference. I'm ok knowing she can't go to Champs anymore, and I'm glad she got to this year :)

If I was a dog I would want you to be my forever mother.

♡♡♡♡♡
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: BeckyAH on November 17, 2018, 05:34:09 AM
So let's keep in mind this was just an 'idea', not any kind of rule change or anything that's definitely happening :)

With that said it would strictly be a a way to disqualify folks from entering Pre-Elite when they don't truly have a Pre-Elite dog.

So if you have 200 points in Elite Chances, 200 points in Elite Jumpers, but you keep your dog in Open Regular so you can enter Pre-Elite.  Technically right now someone could do this.

By including Jumpers and Chances we could fix that.   It's not your qualification needed, strictly what would disqualify you from entering Pre-Elite with a dog who isn't truly belonging there.

Actually for some dogs this could disqualify them more quickly than the 100 lifetime Elite regular Qs.


I think the *idea* is to disqualify more dogs from Pre-Elite and encourage more people to enter in Elite, so as to keep the Pre-Eite division from 'taking over' champs, as opposed to serving as a way for inexperienced young dogs to get experience in the environment, and to narrow how 'big' the space between Elite and Pre-Elite.

I'm not saying that you're wrong for not liking it, just that it serves that function. 

Personally, I'm pretty okay with it.    It doesn't personally impact me (right now), but I understand the reasoning and am okay with that reasoning.  For me, Champs is a thing you *earn* with a dog, Elite is the point and goal and pre-elite is a test run for dogs who are going to get there in a year or so, but not necessarily a thing you are going to get.  Elite-Champs is filling up further and faster recently, making Pre-Elite even less a priority.  This is me.  I understand this is me.

I also completely, COMPLETELY, understand why some people would be upset by it.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Ed and Tres on November 17, 2018, 08:11:52 AM

I think the *idea* is to disqualify more dogs from Pre-Elite and encourage more people to enter in Elite, so as to keep the Pre-Eite division from 'taking over' champs, as opposed to serving as a way for inexperienced young dogs to get experience in the environment, and to narrow how 'big' the space between Elite and Pre-Elite.

I'm not saying that you're wrong for not liking it, just that it serves that function. 

Personally, I'm pretty okay with it.    It doesn't personally impact me (right now), but I understand the reasoning and am okay with that reasoning.  For me, Champs is a thing you *earn* with a dog, Elite is the point and goal and pre-elite is a test run for dogs who are going to get there in a year or so, but not necessarily a thing you are going to get.  Elite-Champs is filling up further and faster recently, making Pre-Elite even less a priority.  This is me.  I understand this is me.

I also completely, COMPLETELY, understand why some people would be upset by it.

I also understand NADAC wanting to put dogs at Champs in the correct entry. The issue I feel is that Elite requires the 100 Regular points AND 40 Jumpers AND 40 Chances during the qualification period.

So there is no jumper or chances criteria for Pre-Elite, just 100 Open or Novice Regular points.

The "NO Mans" land occurs because you may have a Dog that can blow Elite Regular away, which is generally what Champs is, and be lacking in Chances or Jumpers. This is the dog that can go to Champs in Pre-Elite and then suddenly no longer can attend.

Belle's case in point. At the 2017 Champs she came in 2nd to last in the whole trial including Pre-Elite. I'm sure she was one of the dogs some people did not think should be at Champs at all. However it was a great experience for her and 2 years later she will likely do much better in 2019, if her handler can get time off to attend Champs in the Pre-Elite division.

Who knows what may happen in 2019 to 2020, if she develops Chances skills but as it is now in 2021 when Champs may be Eastern location. She may not be able to qualify for Elite because she may not get 40 Chances points. She will likely have more than 100 Elite Regular lifetime by then. Her only way to attend as currently defined would be a 2nd chance entry for the Elite division, which makes future planning difficult.

If I were "King" of NADAC, I would have Elite based on just the 100 Elite Regular points during qualification period, and must have some lifetime points in any other Elite Class. I would drop the rule that if you have 100 Elite lifetime Regular you need to enter Elite and then not have the other criteria to do so.

Obviously if you go to Champs without Elite Chances skills then you will not get any distance tests and loose points but your dog still can put up a decent show of it and most importantly have a FUN time for that team.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: dogrsqr on November 17, 2018, 08:15:12 AM
I'm not sure that anything will keep people from sandbagging if that's what they want to do as there is no requirement to move onto the next level.  It seems like years ago if you got one Elite regular leg before champs you were in Elite. 

Sometimes things just don't align for champs.  I have a novice 2+ year old dog that is in open jumpers and just recently moved to Novice regular.  I'm not going to let champs dictate what we do.  If she were to end up qualifying in Elite we just wouldn't run in champs until the following year.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: MoabDiane on November 17, 2018, 06:14:50 PM
My two cents worth: championships is just that, for champions. The fact that there are pre-champs runs means pretty much anyone can run those. I would like to see championships be for elite-level  dogs! While I have had a dog entered in Pre-elite, it just seemed wrong at the time.  Sure, itís great to get them used to the atmosphere. But pre-champs does that as well, I think. Back to lurking
nowÖ
Diane
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: KarissaKS on November 18, 2018, 07:06:21 AM
My two cents worth: championships is just that, for champions. The fact that there are pre-champs runs means pretty much anyone can run those. I would like to see championships be for elite-level  dogs! While I have had a dog entered in Pre-elite, it just seemed wrong at the time.  Sure, itís great to get them used to the atmosphere. But pre-champs does that as well, I think. Back to lurking
nowÖ
Diane

Not going to disagree. When Pre-Elite was brought back it seemed like a nice little addition -- especially for those of us who were running our more experienced dogs in the big event and wanted to give our baby dogs something to do. (Side runs in 2017 were good for that, too!) But then it just blew up and became this huge thing. Personally, I'd almost rather see Pre-Elite go away again and just modify the entry requirements to the "regular" event to eliminate Chances, or accept Chances Qs from any level other than Intro, since that seems to be everyone's hangup. If the entry to the main event still allows qualifiers from Open Regular then I think this should be pretty achievable for those who want to attend. This might serve to boost the numbers of some of the divisions (I know I would prefer to compete against more than 4-5 dogs).

Attending a national event shouldn't be a given. Some people will fail to meet the qualifying requirements. I don't always hit the mark for the other organizations in which I compete. That doesn't mean they need to change the requirements to make it easier. I guess it largely comes down to the organization's goals. If they are trying to make entry numbers more manageable they might up the requirements. If they are trying to increase attendance they might make it a little easier. NADAC definitely achieved the goal of upping their numbers this year. And with two rings this seems to be doable.  They just need to determine the direction they want the event to go, at the risk of Pre-Elite becoming larger than the main event.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: dogrsqr on November 18, 2018, 09:04:01 AM
I guess i don't understand why it's ok to lower the requirements on Chances and then not have pre-elite.  If too many people are qualifying for pre-elite I'd rather see the requirements increase.  I also don't think you should be able to have an elite regular title and run in pre-elite.  If your dog is not truly not pre-elite you should enter elite or not enter. 

I also don't think Champs is just for champions.  If that were the case there would be alot fewer dogs there, entry fees would have to ve considerably higher, and there'd be no one sitting inthe stands watching the finals.

Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on November 19, 2018, 07:20:43 AM
Okay so in regards to all the bonus stuff.

It is what it is and won't be changing for this year.

Chris,
I was just reading the 2019 Info Page for Champs.
It states that Stakes dogs need to run in the level they are qualified for, but in your response above, you said that the qualifications would stay the same as this year.

Which one is correct?
Thanks
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Amanda Nelson on November 19, 2018, 09:40:14 AM
Okay so in regards to all the bonus stuff.

It is what it is and won't be changing for this year.

Chris,
I was just reading the 2019 Info Page for Champs.
It states that Stakes dogs need to run in the level they are qualified for, but in your response above, you said that the qualifications would stay the same as this year.

Which one is correct?
Thanks


The number of bonuses required for each level will remain the same (the qualifications).

Stakes will be required to run in the level they qualified for.

Amanda


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Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on November 19, 2018, 04:17:52 PM
just my 2 cents.... I fully agree with Diane's post.  Wish it would return to that.  And as Karissa said, some people just can't get qualified for a national event and that does not mean that rules should be made easier.  It's a Championships for Champion level  dogs.
If people want to play with their non-Elite Dogs, then PreChamps would be perfect there and can make up some money maybe not obtained in the regular Championships.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Rosemary on November 20, 2018, 06:12:46 AM
I agree as well.  My only objection is that "no mans land".  It doesn't seem right to me to have a team be disallowed from one group without allowing them into the other.  I know of people who are struggling with the chances requirement so they are keeping their dog in open regular until they get that qualification.  They would prefer to move up, but don't want to end up not allowed at all.  The distance challenge at champs, last I knew, was optional with only a point fault.  It also didn't seem to be as hard as some of the open courses that are required for the qualifications. 
Personally, I like to make sure my dogs are well qualified as there are always surprises at champs.  Anyway, that's my two cents.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: dogrsqr on November 20, 2018, 12:45:23 PM
So what defines a championship level dog.?  In my opinion it wouldn't be a dog who is only in elite regular and unable to run at th e same level inall the other NADAC classes.

Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on November 20, 2018, 03:58:54 PM
Gina-- my 2 cents... the dog is able to run and qualify in Elite level courses.  That puts the dog on the route to Championships as far as NATCHs and is at a level able to compete in all Elite level courses. 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Amy McGovern on November 20, 2018, 07:37:08 PM
But Lorrie, the problem is that it requires elite regular *and* elite or open chances.  Many of us can do regular long before we can do chances (I know you rock at chances but you have seen us, we definitely don't and I am not alone in this.  Sharon and Chris have both posted numbers on this in the past!).  so if you move up to elite regular (or if we use Chris's proposed rule and combine chances, jumpers, and regular), you are disqualified for pre-elite long before you can qualify for elite.  Easy solution is to allow novice chances to count. 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: BeckyAH on November 20, 2018, 07:53:36 PM
The other, also easy, alternative is to do away with Pre-Elite entirely and allow Pre-Champs to be where younger dogs get experience.   Or to make 'Pre-Elite' something that is harder (rather than easier) to qualify for.   Something for dogs who are CLOSE to being able to qualify for the regular division, but aren't *quite* there.   Add Jumpers and Chances requirements to it, even, to close the no-man's land gap, some, but without making the regular division easier (and yes, doing either will mean some dogs just don't get there).

I don't do well with chances, particularly not my small dog.  It is hard for us.  We eeked out an Open Chances title.  Have never qualified in Elite Chances, may never.  We may or may not get the Chances Qs necessary to qualify for champs this year.  It's HARD.  (Don't even talk about my other dogs and their variable struggles, but they are there and I do get it).

But I feel like making it easier to qualify for champs with novice Qs is kind of defeating the purpose of champs being champs.  This is me.  I'm not saying anyone else has to agree.  I understand why others won't, or might not, and how they feel - I TRULY do.    I'm not saying you're wrong to feel that way, or that I'm right.

Just that, for me, champs is not meant to be inclusive.   It's one of the few places I feel like that in dog sports.  I want everyone to have goals, paths forward, titles and awards and ways to succeed, but for champs - I feel like it's supposed to be hard - even to the point of being downright impossible - for every dog and handler to make. 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Lorrie Stelz on November 21, 2018, 01:15:23 AM
Becky, yes I agree totally. Eliminate pre elite. Keep preChamps. Tests the best dogs in the ultimate tests of the year.
Amy, I donít know what the answer is. Chaney was not a natural at distance and we worked our asses off learning how to succeed at those challenges. Just her and me and we did it on our own. Lots and lots of training. Your dogs can do it!  Eve got her NATCH. 😊
Personally I think there needs to be more distance challenges at Champs. NADAC is know for distance work. The challenges there are minimal. Iíd love to see harder distance challenge tests in the Champs runs.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on November 21, 2018, 08:26:16 AM
So let's keep in mind this was just an 'idea', not any kind of rule change or anything that's definitely happening :)

With that said it would strictly be a a way to disqualify folks from entering Pre-Elite when they don't truly have a Pre-Elite dog.

So if you have 200 points in Elite Chances, 200 points in Elite Jumpers, but you keep your dog in Open Regular so you can enter Pre-Elite.  Technically right now someone could do this.

By including Jumpers and Chances we could fix that.   It's not your qualification needed, strictly what would disqualify you from entering Pre-Elite with a dog who isn't truly belonging there.

I like the idea of this.  It would definitely keep the dogs out of pre-elite that don't belong there.   I can see where someone might have all of those and then stop at 90 elite regular points to stay in pre-elite.  Not what I would do, but it would happen.  But you still have the no-mans land to deal with.  I personally, have held Calypso back in some events out of open just because we are far behind in others and I don't want to push her too much, and with 8 events per day, we still run 6 events. 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on November 21, 2018, 08:46:30 AM
My two cents worth: championships is just that, for champions. The fact that there are pre-champs runs means pretty much anyone can run those. I would like to see championships be for elite-level  dogs! While I have had a dog entered in Pre-elite, it just seemed wrong at the time.  Sure, itís great to get them used to the atmosphere. But pre-champs does that as well, I think. Back to lurking
nowÖ
Diane

I totally disagree with this.  I LOVE pre-elite.  I think it is a good addition.  First and foremost, it gets more people to attend.  If you eliminate all of those pre-elite dogs, you lose all of the money that they pay in their entry fee to be able to fund this event.  Second, it is not just "something for my other dog to do", it is an event for a dog that may not be quite there for the "big" event, but ready to compete on a national level.  I  was a competitive swimmer.  We had a national event you had to qualify for, but there was an A class (the higher class) and a B class (the next level).  It still took a lot to qualify for both events, but it got a lot more people to attend.  Third, it would STILL eliminate those people who can't get chances or jumpers Q's.  They still wouldn't qualify for the event so it doesn't help in that aspect.  I get that those people are frustrated, and I feel for them, but they also don't necessarily belong in pre-elite either.

I also don't think that Pre-champs gets dogs used to the atmosphere.  There are not people sitting around in the bleachers, the speakers aren't going, the courses are not bigger, etc.  Pre-champs is what I do to get my dogs warmed up for the event. 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on November 21, 2018, 08:48:55 AM
just my 2 cents.... I fully agree with Diane's post.  Wish it would return to that.  And as Karissa said, some people just can't get qualified for a national event and that does not mean that rules should be made easier.  It's a Championships for Champion level  dogs.
If people want to play with their non-Elite Dogs, then PreChamps would be perfect there and can make up some money maybe not obtained in the regular Championships.

Pre-champs wouldn't make up the money that is lost by eliminating pre-elite.  It is $275.00 for a pre-elite entry.  I would run my dog in MAYBE 2 events at $12.00 each for a total of $24.00 and I don't do side runs during champs if they were to add that. 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: aprweber on November 21, 2018, 11:37:11 AM
It looks to me as if the theme of this thread has evolved into how to change requirements so that ďonly truly championship quality dogs attend.Ē

If thinning the field is the goal, add a DRI requirement.  More than once, as I waited for my turn this year, I heard people bemoaning the presence of slow dogs.  Granted, I was there with one double digit dog and one pre elite dog, so my sample is skewed. If a DRI over 70 was used, it would have kept us from competing at Champs.

If there is no pre elite, no double digit, and requirements are created to cull potential competitors, more venues might be added to the list. A smaller venue should save money. Eliminating two divisions saves money on awards.

Also, are there any numbers on percentage of those eligible that actually attend?

I believe the current requirements do an adequate job of letting competitors know if they should consider Champs.  It all depends on what one wants the requirements to do.  As my dear old Dad says, ďAnybody can make up a test nobody can pass, but that isnít what a test is for. ď

April
Brekka NATCh 9 V NATCh 5 (now retired)
Harrie NATCh 19 V NATCh 15 All Around NATCh 3
Wyn just finished Open All Around
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Billie Rosen on November 21, 2018, 04:08:30 PM
I love the Pre-Elite option for dogs that are not ready for Elite.  NADAC as an organization welcomes dogs of various speeds, of various experience levels, of various breeds and ages.  Championships should be a place where dogs that can succeed consistently on weekend courses can compete against their peers.  Every year, there are plenty of dogs that are unlikely to make finals, but people and dogs still have a great time at Champs.

I think it was great that NADAC had a record breaking entry this year at Champs.  Lots of great dogs ran their hearts out.  I saw very few dogs I didn't think belonged there.  So I urge that you don't change the qualifications other than the already announced change of not including Intro Q's in the points requirement. 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: kbriefel on November 22, 2018, 11:29:11 AM
Iíve only been to Champs once, with a 2 year old dog, in 2017.  We competed in Elite Champs.  Maybe Iím jaded because I had a competitive dog but I wanted to compete with the best dogs on hard courses.  Iíd always heard about distance requirements on courses at Champs and was disappointed not to see those.  A Championship to me is an event that tests dog and handlers, not one which is open to dogs that canít even Q in all the Elite classes.  The idea of holding my dog back because he was young was suggested to me and rejected.  Seems to me that the issue is whether this is a Championship or a National gathering.  Just my 2 cents.

Ken Briefel and Max
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Ed and Tres on November 22, 2018, 05:38:50 PM
So seeing so many responses about Elite should only be for Champions, then any dog not a Champion should be allowed to enter Pre-Elite, if qualified.

I just want to see the "No Mans" land or the "Catch-22" eliminated from the Elite / Pre-Elite qualifications.
If you can run in Pre-Elite one year then you should not be excluded if you still can meet that criteria and are not able to meet Elite criteria.

Pre-Elite says any dog may enter:
At least 100 points must have been earned in the current qualifying year from the Regular Agility class in Novice, Open or Elite, with the exception that a dog entered in Pre-Elite cannot have earned more than 100 points in Elite Regular in their lifetime up to September 30th , 2018. If a dog earns more than 100 points in Elite Regular, then their entry will be switched to the Elite level.


Elite (or should I say Champion) dogs must have:
At least 100 points must have been earned in the current qualifying year from the Regular Agility class at the Open or Elite level.
At least 40 points must have been earned in the current qualifying year, at the Open or Elite level, in each of the Jumpers and Chances classes.

So just change the Disqualification out of Pre-Elite to say the following:

A dog may enter Pre-Elite with the exception that a dog entered in Pre-Elite cannot have earned more than 100 points in Elite Regular with 40 or more Open/Elite points in Jumpers and with 40 or more Open/Elite points in Chances in their lifetime up to September 30th , 2019. If a dog earns those lifetime points, then their entry will be switched to the Elite level.


If the Elite entrants only want Champion level dogs and 40 points of Jumpers & Chances in a year period with 100 Elite Regular points makes you a Champion, then if you do not get those 40 points in Jumpers and Chances yet you still do 100 or more Elite Regular, you are not a Champion and your dog should be able to run in Pre-Elite.

Or as others have suggested make Pre-Elite harder and have it include 40 Novice Jumpers and 40 Novice Chances in the qualifying year.

My other comment is not many handlers would come to Pre-Champs without a dog in Elite/Pre-Elite.
Pre-Champs is not the same thing and not worth the travel / expense, most would choose to just go to a local trial.
Pre-Champs is not a substitute for Pre-Elite.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Amy McGovern on November 22, 2018, 07:54:12 PM
Speaking as someone who just ran pre-elite for the first time, I thought it was fabulous and I'd hate to see it go away.  We had a ton of fun and it was great to be with the other baby dogs who have lots of fun running but sometimes just do baby-dog stuff!  Even though we placed several times (and made finals), that doesn't mean my baby dog was ready for the elite ring.  Some people seem to be saying it should all go back to one ring but, I for one, would never have made the choice to run if there wasn't a separate more-beginner-dog-appropriate ring.  She simply isn't quite ready for the elite ring.  Also, for people coming with multiple dogs and potentially multiple members of the family running dogs (as we did), it was great to have two rings and made it easier to justify the long trip.  If only one dog could run, it would have been a lot harder for us all to come.  Yes the elite ring was the reason we came but I personally didn't even get to run in it.  And pre-champs definitely doesn't take the place of pre-elite.  It was fun but more like the largest trial you have ever been to (can you imagine elite chances taking 3 hours to run at a regular show?).  It wasn't a replacement for the excitement of pre-elite and stretching yourself and trying new things, sometimes failing and sometimes succeeding. 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: knittingdog on November 24, 2018, 07:10:16 AM

I agree to hang on to preElite.  Surge wasn't ready for the big time just yet, but it was great for him to get the experience of a National event.  PreChamps is nothing like Champs.  PreChamps is more like a huge weekend trial.  The environment isn't near as controlled and the mindset is very different.  For me, preChamps is more about getting the initial butterflies out or a warmup on the new equipment for the big event.  PreElite is more like experiencing the real thing and a great intro to it.

Robin & Surge
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Janice_Shavor on November 24, 2018, 07:19:10 AM
 I have participated in CHAMPS / NATIONALS in 2 agility venues.  (And should have gone to a 3rd one but didn't.)  There are 2 aspects for the competitors: A) All the best that qualified (& that could afford to) competed.  So the winners were the best of the best that year (of those who could afford to come)!  B) Others come because they want to measure their skills and teamwork against the best teams that could come.  They want to see the top teams take on the course challenges and beat the course.  You make new friends and some of those you only get to be with at this competition.

For this level of competition, unless the organization can fill with the first group or have other activities at the same time that carry some of the cost, you need both groups.  I was in group B in another venue for my first event and really enjoyed it.  Many of us wanted just to earn that Q and ribbon at that event.  I did have a dog in the finals once ... and we came in second.  I know just where on course I ran out of oxygen.  I had a dog in the second chance entries in CHAMPS 2009 and it was a wonderful experience.  I ran 2 dogs in CHAMPS 2017, one is Elite, one in pre-elite.  The one in pre-elite requires lots of work on distance.  He is quick to tell if I am disappointed; I must be very careful to step in if he does not understand what I am asking/directing him to do.  So, pre-elite was the best choice for him under the rules at the time.  My other dog was definitely in Elite ... and in a sense we basically helped make up the numbers for placements.  Buddy not only Q's in each pre-elite run, he was in the placements each run but never with the speed to be in the top 3 or 4. 

So, take the qualifications for CHAMPS next year and see what is best for your dogs to run.  I will be doing my very best to get those 4 Open/Elite Chances Qs for Buddy.  Walker might get enough Open Regular Q's to be in Pre-Elite.  If Bella is feeling good again, she'll come too.  And I might need to get in good enough shape (or get enough distance on the pack) to run 6 longer runs each day.  And it will be immense fun and joy.

Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Marsha01 on November 26, 2018, 05:11:58 PM
Chris I think that is a great fix.  100 cumulative points in the elite classes with jumps and you should be in elite at champs. :) 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Karin Bell on November 27, 2018, 09:53:13 AM
Hi,

I have a question about Regionals as the date to put your name in the Hat is coming up fast...  Since it appears that the location will be determined by a Random Draw, will the drawing be by geographic location?  East, West and Central?  That would seem to be a fair way to spread out the event rather than lumping all clubs into one hat with the chance of one region 'winning' out over the others.

"Regional draw entries will open on December first, and the random draw will be a live feed done on December 22nd"

And when we do Put our Name in The HAT, are we supposed to also include the date we would like to be considered for the event?  A lot of clubs offer multiple trials so that is why I ask.

Thanks!
Title: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on November 28, 2018, 06:14:24 AM
At this point, is the plan to move the Champs dates to the beginning of October for the future? 
Linda
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Sarah Fix on November 28, 2018, 07:51:47 AM
Saturday, December 1, is the date that clubs are supposed to put their names in for Regionals - according to the original post.  What info do we need to submit to be considered and where do we submit it?  Our club has 2 possible dates - end of January and mid April.  Can we submit both?  Is there a date window that you would like regionals to fall within?  How much extra work is it?  What extras would have to happen at the trial for it to be a regional?  I haven't been able to attend one yet so don't know if there needs to be a change in what is offered or if the format is different.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: agilityaddict2 on November 28, 2018, 10:55:42 AM
Iíve only been to Champs once, with a 2 year old dog, in 2017.  We competed in Elite Champs.  Maybe Iím jaded because I had a competitive dog but I wanted to compete with the best dogs on hard courses.  Iíd always heard about distance requirements on courses at Champs and was disappointed not to see those.  A Championship to me is an event that tests dog and handlers, not one which is open to dogs that canít even Q in all the Elite classes.  The idea of holding my dog back because he was young was suggested to me and rejected.  Seems to me that the issue is whether this is a Championship or a National gathering.  Just my 2 cents.

Ken Briefel and Max
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: agilityaddict2 on November 28, 2018, 11:02:38 AM
I could not agree more. It is Champs not a national gathering. Not everyone should qualify and to suggest that the requirements be adjusted so that "you" can participate is absurd. It is supposed to be difficult.. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: KarissaKS on November 28, 2018, 12:02:21 PM
I could not agree more. It is Champs not a national gathering. Not everyone should qualify and to suggest that the requirements be adjusted so that "you" can participate is absurd. It is supposed to be difficult.. Just my opinion.

But the thing is, what is difficult to me might not be difficult for you (or vice versa). I know someone who said she qualified for Champs in 3 weekends. Does that sound difficult? I've done two weekends of NADAC and my dogs are almost qualified. So in my eyes the qualifications could be more difficult, but there are a whole lot of people who would be in an uproar if that happened.

For a lot of people, attending their organization's national event IS a social gathering. If you consider the 1200 or so people that attend AKC Nationals, I guarantee you that at least 80% of the people attending know that they don't have a prayer of making finals or winning. They are there because they put in the work to qualify (and those qualifications are pretty hefty), to hang out with friends, to watch some good agility, do some shopping, and to hopefully have some clean runs and bring home a Q ribbon from NAC. Not everyone is super competitive (like me ;) ) and that's okay. These events would be pretty small if only the people/dogs who have a shot at winning came.

It's up to the organization to determine their goals. If the goal is to grow the event then you typically need to make qualifiers easier, or somehow increase the appeal of the event itself. Personally, I appreciate that the other orgs require everyone who attends to meet the same qualifications and runs the same courses. I would love it if NADAC had 1 set of qualifications, everyone just ran in the same (Elite) division, kept the 2-ring format, and ran Round 1 in one ring and Round 2 in the other ring at the same time, then had the groups swap. I don't need a different course for my DD dog. If he was not capable of running the regular courses I wouldn't bring him to Champs.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 28, 2018, 02:59:14 PM
Hi,

I have a question about Regionals as the date to put your name in the Hat is coming up fast...  Since it appears that the location will be determined by a Random Draw, will the drawing be by geographic location?  East, West and Central?  That would seem to be a fair way to spread out the event rather than lumping all clubs into one hat with the chance of one region 'winning' out over the others.

"Regional draw entries will open on December first, and the random draw will be a live feed done on December 22nd"

And when we do Put our Name in The HAT, are we supposed to also include the date we would like to be considered for the event?  A lot of clubs offer multiple trials so that is why I ask.

Thanks!


Yup it will be split up between north and south as well.

So south west, north west, etc etc.

Draw entries open on December 1st, so that is the date you can put your name in.

It will be by specific trial as well, since the trial weekend has to meet certain criteria, it can't be by club since some clubs switch around their locations for different dates.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 28, 2018, 02:59:52 PM
At this point, is the plan to move the Champs dates to the beginning of October for the future? 
Linda

Definitely not!

September is what we normally aim for and would like to keep.

Unfortunately for 2019 there just weren't any September dates open.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on November 28, 2018, 03:05:03 PM
Saturday, December 1, is the date that clubs are supposed to put their names in for Regionals - according to the original post.  What info do we need to submit to be considered and where do we submit it?  Our club has 2 possible dates - end of January and mid April.  Can we submit both?  Is there a date window that you would like regionals to fall within?  How much extra work is it?  What extras would have to happen at the trial for it to be a regional?  I haven't been able to attend one yet so don't know if there needs to be a change in what is offered or if the format is different.

Criteria is mainly in regards to weather.

If a club wanted to host a regional on their trial that occurs on February, but it's an outdoor trial and 3 out of 5 years there has been snow, then that would disqualify it.     Or if the trial always gets rained out, not a good choice for a regional event.

The only other qualification is that the trial historically must have received at least 500 runs for the weekend.   It is a competition after all and trials that are smaller then that don't make it very competitive.

The trial can't be any later then August 15th, since that is the cutoff for Second chance entry into Champs.

The club doesn't have to do any extra work.   We attend each regional and take care of all the extra scoring that occurs, we judge any distance tests on the courses, and we supply the awards.     Only thing the club has to do is promote it :)

No changes from a normal weekend, you need 2 rounds of regular on Saturday and Sunday.   
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: dogrsqr on November 28, 2018, 03:19:33 PM
You know there are all different kinds of personalities of people involved in agility.  I DO think of Champs as a National social gathering.  I just don't take agility all that serious.  It's just something I enjoy doing with my dogs and love having a good time with other dog crazy people.  I have never expected to win anything at any of the Champs I have attended.  I think of it as a vacation, after all with 4 dogs we can't afford to go on a vacation without dogs. 

Honestly one of the reasons we quit going to Champs after 2004 was because of discussions about how it was only for the best of the best.  I have managed to get several NATCHs on my dog, but we are by no means consistent.  She is a difficult dog to run and we can go from awesome to crash and burn from one round to the next.  We can usually still manage to meet the qualification requirements.  I guess maybe I'll have to reconsider whether or not Champs is the place for us.

Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Smpickett on November 30, 2018, 10:56:50 AM
100 overall sounds good to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: dogrsqr on December 01, 2018, 04:00:33 AM
Saturday, December 1, is the date that clubs are supposed to put their names in for Regionals - according to the original post.  What info do we need to submit to be considered and where do we submit it?  Our club has 2 possible dates - end of January and mid April.  Can we submit both?  Is there a date window that you would like regionals to fall within?  How much extra work is it?  What extras would have to happen at the trial for it to be a regional?  I haven't been able to attend one yet so don't know if there needs to be a change in what is offered or if the format is different.

Criteria is mainly in regards to weather.

If a club wanted to host a regional on their trial that occurs on February, but it's an outdoor trial and 3 out of 5 years there has been snow, then that would disqualify it.     Or if the trial always gets rained out, not a good choice for a regional event.

The only other qualification is that the trial historically must have received at least 500 runs for the weekend.   It is a competition after all and trials that are smaller then that don't make it very competitive.

The trial can't be any later then August 15th, since that is the cutoff for Second chance entry into Champs.

The club doesn't have to do any extra work.   We attend each regional and take care of all the extra scoring that occurs, we judge any distance tests on the courses, and we supply the awards.     Only thing the club has to do is promote it :)

No changes from a normal weekend, you need 2 rounds of regular on Saturday and Sunday.

For future years is there any way that the draw can be held earlier in the year?  Our club has 3 trials a year but one is in September and one in December.  Our third is in May outdoors and weather would exclude that one.

Thanks
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Sarah Fix on December 01, 2018, 12:57:44 PM
So can a club submit more than one weekend for the random draw? 
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on December 02, 2018, 08:26:19 AM
Saturday, December 1, is the date that clubs are supposed to put their names in for Regionals - according to the original post.  What info do we need to submit to be considered and where do we submit it?  Our club has 2 possible dates - end of January and mid April.  Can we submit both?  Is there a date window that you would like regionals to fall within?  How much extra work is it?  What extras would have to happen at the trial for it to be a regional?  I haven't been able to attend one yet so don't know if there needs to be a change in what is offered or if the format is different.

Criteria is mainly in regards to weather.

If a club wanted to host a regional on their trial that occurs on February, but it's an outdoor trial and 3 out of 5 years there has been snow, then that would disqualify it.     Or if the trial always gets rained out, not a good choice for a regional event.

The only other qualification is that the trial historically must have received at least 500 runs for the weekend.   It is a competition after all and trials that are smaller then that don't make it very competitive.

The trial can't be any later then August 15th, since that is the cutoff for Second chance entry into Champs.

The club doesn't have to do any extra work.   We attend each regional and take care of all the extra scoring that occurs, we judge any distance tests on the courses, and we supply the awards.     Only thing the club has to do is promote it :)

No changes from a normal weekend, you need 2 rounds of regular on Saturday and Sunday.

For future years is there any way that the draw can be held earlier in the year?  Our club has 3 trials a year but one is in September and one in December.  Our third is in May outdoors and weather would exclude that one.

Thanks
That's the plan!

We're just playing catch up with the new program :)

Ideally I would actually like to draw the 2020 regionals April of 2019.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on December 02, 2018, 08:26:57 AM
So can a club submit more than one weekend for the random draw? 

They can for the purposes of us knowing what dates are available, but for the actual draw only a single club name will be put in.

That way it's a level playing field between a club that hosts 2 trials a year, and a club that hosts 6.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Sarah Fix on December 02, 2018, 11:48:40 AM
Perfect - that's a very fair solution!
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Sarah Fix on December 22, 2018, 06:05:46 PM
In the original post, you mentioned that you would do a live feed on the 22nd to announce the location of Regionals.  Are you still planning to do that - or announce in the very near future?
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on December 22, 2018, 06:13:44 PM
In the original post, you mentioned that you would do a live feed on the 22nd to announce the location of Regionals.  Are you still planning to do that - or announce in the very near future?

Yup that is still on the agenda!   Had a bit of a personal emergency here at the office today and wasn't able to get the video done, so it's going to be happening tomorrow at 5PM, Mountain time
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: AgilityJeff on December 23, 2018, 03:57:19 PM
Where can we see this?
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on December 23, 2018, 03:58:26 PM
The live feed will be on Facebook,  and then once itís concluded weíll post the video here on the forum as well.  So everyone will get to see it whether they use Facebook or not within the next hour :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: choopagirl87 on January 01, 2019, 05:08:14 PM
When will we find out if we made into the training program or not? I have always wanted to be a trainer and would love to be a trainer for the group I love running with.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Chris Nelson on January 01, 2019, 08:36:17 PM
Now that the holidays are over with we should be getting responses out to everyone very soon!

Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: choopagirl87 on January 02, 2019, 05:48:45 PM
Thanks Chris. Tebow and I can't wait for Champs this year. I was bummed that we couldn't make it last year.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: lyndav on January 19, 2019, 10:27:06 AM
What height do Double Digit dogs jump at Champs?

Lynda, Java & Crackers
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: Richard Wolfe on January 19, 2019, 11:24:33 AM
Double digits are Skilled Veterans, so 2 heights less than they measure to.
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: lyndav on January 19, 2019, 02:56:12 PM
Thankyou!

Lynda, Java & Crackers
Title: Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
Post by: dogrsqr on January 20, 2019, 11:06:37 AM
Are.the gamblers and team classes that were run at regionals last year going to continue?

Gina