NADAC Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: KarissaKS on January 24, 2020, 10:54:24 AM

Title: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: KarissaKS on January 24, 2020, 10:54:24 AM
I seem to recall that tugging in the ring (and perhaps the toy rule?) were supposed to be voted on in December to determine if it was going to stick around. Did this ever happen? Is this still allowed?

What is the current status of the placement of the leash when a handler requests that it not be handed to them?
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: Bernie Doyle on January 30, 2020, 06:47:07 AM
Hi Karissa,

If you want the leash on the ground, leash "walkers" are instructed to place it ~ 7' back & to the side of the final obstacle. That way it isn't a "target" right in the middle of the final obstacle. Also, I haven't heard/been told otherwise, so I am  going with tugging is still allowed in the ring, after your run is complete. Intro & Novice teams are still allowed to bring  "non squeaky"  toys/tugs into the ring for training. They must "declare"/show the toy to the judge for their training run. Teams will then have the allotted 60 seconds of training/ring time.

Hope this helps!

Bernie
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: Amy McGovern on January 30, 2020, 07:53:00 AM
As someone VERY happy with tugging, I am glad the rule stayed.  My girl loves it!  Gives her a job at the end, which she really needed.

-Amy and the schnauzers
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: Chris Nelson on February 02, 2020, 12:50:11 PM
We unfortunately had a few things going on through December and the vote fell by the wayside.

We'll open it up here today and let everyone know.    I can say that I highly doubt anything will be changing.   Since even some folks that were adamantly against it, have found out that it's really just not an issue at all in real world scenarios.

Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: KarissaKS on February 02, 2020, 06:27:20 PM
Hi Karissa,

If you want the leash on the ground, leash "walkers" are instructed to place it ~ 7' back & to the side of the final obstacle. That way it isn't a "target" right in the middle of the final obstacle. Also, I haven't heard/been told otherwise, so I am  going with tugging is still allowed in the ring, after your run is complete. Intro & Novice teams are still allowed to bring  "non squeaky"  toys/tugs into the ring for training. They must "declare"/show the toy to the judge for their training run. Teams will then have the allotted 60 seconds of training/ring time.

Hope this helps!

Bernie

Thanks Bernie. I'm not a fan of the 7' distance. My dogs can land farther out than that when in extension. I would really prefer it to be 20' or as far out as the ring allows. Leashes were put on a chair by the gate all weekend at my (other venue) trial and that works out just fine. This is the sort of thing that will affect my choice to do NADAC or not.
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: JimmyS. on February 02, 2020, 07:16:32 PM
8 down, away from the course, and 8 to the side (whichever side is logical for the leash runner) with a marker on the ground, is the rule.

We do not do the leash on a chair mainly because it makes trial efficiency/flow go way down. We also do not want to have a finish line dog off leash for an extended period of time with a startline dog waiting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: KarissaKS on February 03, 2020, 08:57:09 AM
So what you are saying is that because "some people" mosey their way to the finish line, this impacts everyone? I do not want the placement of the leash near an obstacle to impact my dog's performance in any way. Further, the side that the leash runner chooses to place the leash on may or may not be in line with where I want my dog to finish. You can say that the dog shouldn't "target their leash," but I would argue that my dogs simply know the most efficient and fast way out of the ring. Jedi doesn't even tug on his leash, he wants to get out of the ring so that he can get his toy.

I just made a video of our finish lines just from what was still on my phone from our trial this weekend. Every finish line is different. I do not want their leash 7'-8' feet away from the last obstacle.

https://youtu.be/dELEWk9kenw
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: BeckyAH on February 03, 2020, 09:22:38 AM
My finish lines are the dog wrapping the final obstacle (with a cue to do so) and coming back to me.  It does not matter at all where the leash is, because we're going to walk together, put it on and leave.   Where I am is more relevant than where my dog lands.

NADAC is never going to make everyone happy. Someone is always going to have a problem with something because it doesn't work for their dogs.    Someone is always going to be extra happy because a rule works super well for their dogs.   Most people will fall in between.

NADAC's job is to serve the majority to the best of their ability, and if that means losing some competitors, well, so be it.  Because serving individuals with specific rules is simply going to make SOMEONE ELSE unhappy enough to leave to threaten to.

Most other venues do not offer you the opportunity to have a personalized debate with the people who make the rules.  It takes lots of people showing that there is a problem before things change and even then they do so, slowly.  Frankly, I think that in this those other venues may have the right idea.  The stress and time wasted on engaging EVERY PERSON who has some issue in NADAC has got to be enormous.

And not useful.
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: Jeannie Biggers on February 03, 2020, 10:09:17 AM


Every finish line is different. I do not want their leash 7'-8' feet away from the last obstacle.

https://youtu.be/dELEWk9kenw

So don't have it laid on the ground.  It is still an option to have it handed to you. 

And to just clarify....it is laid at a marker 8' from and 8' to the side of the last obstacle.  It is not in the direct line of the dogs path.

Jeannie

Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: JimmyS. on February 03, 2020, 10:10:06 AM
So what you are saying is that because "some people" mosey their way to the finish line, this impacts everyone? I do not want the placement of the leash near an obstacle to impact my dog's performance in any way. Further, the side that the leash runner chooses to place the leash on may or may not be in line with where I want my dog to finish. You can say that the dog shouldn't "target their leash," but I would argue that my dogs simply know the most efficient and fast way out of the ring. Jedi doesn't even tug on his leash, he wants to get out of the ring so that he can get his toy.

I just made a video of our finish lines just from what was still on my phone from our trial this weekend. Every finish line is different. I do not want their leash 7'-8' feet away from the last obstacle.

https://youtu.be/dELEWk9kenw
Well, hopefully you voted No on the survey then. :-)


Since what i said was misinterpreted, i will clarify, its up to the judge where the marker is placed, based on where it is best for the leash runner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: KarissaKS on February 03, 2020, 12:10:39 PM
Leash placement was not up for debate on the survey.

For me this is safety issue. My dogs learn very quickly where the leash is (which you can see when Jedi went to the wrong chair, because that's where it was on the previous run). This will result in either them coming up short before the last obstacle so that they can stop at their leash, or it will result in them spinning in the air and jamming themselves into the ground. I don't want them to practice either of those behaviors. I feel that my dog should be able to come to a normal stop on their own after taking the last obstacle in extension. I do not want people walking towards my dog with their leash and that is my right.

I'll be honest. I haven't done a NADAC trial since last June when I went because tugging was allowed. That's when I learned about the leash placement. I haven't been back, and I likely won't if this is going to remain in place. I just won't do that to my dogs. They do not have that experience in any other organization.
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: Sarah Fix on February 04, 2020, 08:29:58 AM
I'm with Jeannie.  Use one of the other options for leashes.  Have the leash runner bring you the leash, or if you don't trust them to do it right, ask a friend to do it.  There are only a few people (maybe 2) per trial who ask for the leash on the ground - sometimes none.  And almost all are because they have bouncy dogs and they want to avoid the E from having their dog jump on the leash runner.  Using the leash runner should ensure that you are handed the leash in a timely manner and ready to go on your dog.  But it's your choice - and if you're happier in another venue - go for it!
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: Becky on February 04, 2020, 09:32:07 AM
I am currently asking for the leash on the ground for my new dog, because he's quirky.  If he sees someone (anyone, even someone he knows) holding a leash, he will try to avoid being caught and leashed.  I do not believe he would EVER go jump on the leash runner.  If it's on the ground, he doesn't notice it as much and he feels OK jumping into my arms, so that I can then pick up the leash and put it on him.  Placement of the leash did not seem to be a problem at our recent trial.  What seemed to be more of a problem for him were the time or two when the leash runner was still in the process of bringing the leash to the placement point when he finished; seeing someone in motion with a leash made him slow down a bit and avoid them.
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: Amy McGovern on February 04, 2020, 09:51:06 AM
I'm with Jeannie.  Use one of the other options for leashes.  Have the leash runner bring you the leash, or if you don't trust them to do it right, ask a friend to do it.  There are only a few people (maybe 2) per trial who ask for the leash on the ground - sometimes none.  And almost all are because they have bouncy dogs and they want to avoid the E from having their dog jump on the leash runner.  Using the leash runner should ensure that you are handed the leash in a timely manner and ready to go on your dog.  But it's your choice - and if you're happier in another venue - go for it!

I'm one of those rare ones who ask for it on the ground (usually I'm the only one at a show who does so).  I just want to focus on her and the leash and not extra people and her loud mouth telling me that the run should NOT BE DONE YET at the end.  LOL!  it gives both of us a chance to focus on a new job:  sitting and leashing up.  Then tugging as we go out :).

Side note:  I do wish the leash runners would understand "leave it on the ground" and what that means. I've had to tell multiple runners that doesn't mean "throw it at me at the end" :-P. Yes, this is a training issue for the humans but one I prefer to avoid having to train in the moment at the end of my run!

-Amy
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: BeckyAH on February 04, 2020, 06:39:26 PM

I'm one of those rare ones who ask for it on the ground (usually I'm the only one at a show who does so).  I just want to focus on her and the leash and not extra people and her loud mouth telling me that the run should NOT BE DONE YET at the end.  LOL!  it gives both of us a chance to focus on a new job:  sitting and leashing up.  Then tugging as we go out :).

Side note:  I do wish the leash runners would understand "leave it on the ground" and what that means. I've had to tell multiple runners that doesn't mean "throw it at me at the end" :-P. Yes, this is a training issue for the humans but one I prefer to avoid having to train in the moment at the end of my run!

-Amy

I am too one of those people, with one of my dogs, who can be a bit of a jerk.  It keeps her feeling confident and not worrying about people in the ring, so I'm not going to change.

But as I said my dog is always returning to me immediately after the last obstacle (command her to 'tight' that one) then walks beside me to the leash so I literally do not care WHERE it is put.  We waste no time at all, and we stay connected and she stays unfussed.
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on February 05, 2020, 09:41:04 AM
Leash placement was not up for debate on the survey.

For me this is safety issue. My dogs learn very quickly where the leash is (which you can see when Jedi went to the wrong chair, because that's where it was on the previous run). This will result in either them coming up short before the last obstacle so that they can stop at their leash, or it will result in them spinning in the air and jamming themselves into the ground. I don't want them to practice either of those behaviors. I feel that my dog should be able to come to a normal stop on their own after taking the last obstacle in extension. I do not want people walking towards my dog with their leash and that is my right.

I'll be honest. I haven't done a NADAC trial since last June when I went because tugging was allowed. That's when I learned about the leash placement. I haven't been back, and I likely won't if this is going to remain in place. I just won't do that to my dogs. They do not have that experience in any other organization.

In looking at the finish lines you posted, the leash in NADAC would be even further out of the way and poses no safety issue.  The leash is at least as far back from the last obstacle and off to the side.  The chairs that you showed are probably less than 8' from the last obstacle except for the obstacles which finish inside the course.  In what I have seen, with the leashes being on the ground, there have been no issues of dogs jamming themselves to stop for the leash.  With it being off to the side, and it varying from course to course, the dogs don't really see the leash to do that and they don't pattern to the leash like your dog did with going to the wrong chair. 
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: KarissaKS on February 05, 2020, 09:43:50 PM
In looking at the finish lines you posted, the leash in NADAC would be even further out of the way and poses no safety issue.  The leash is at least as far back from the last obstacle and off to the side.  The chairs that you showed are probably less than 8' from the last obstacle except for the obstacles which finish inside the course.  In what I have seen, with the leashes being on the ground, there have been no issues of dogs jamming themselves to stop for the leash.  With it being off to the side, and it varying from course to course, the dogs don't really see the leash to do that and they don't pattern to the leash like your dog did with going to the wrong chair.

AKC rules stipulate a minimum of 20' from the last obstacle to the ring fencing. There may be some times when that gets squished a little, but at absolutely no point in time was the jump 8' away from the fence. In the one NADAC trial I did in June with these leash rules my dogs 100% did learn where that leash was going to be and it did affect their striding and performance. I will not do that to my dogs as I feel it is detrimental to their performance in other organizations. I have students who compete in NADAC and would like to be able to go and support them, but I will not go so long as this is the standard procedure. Unfortunately this often results in students choosing not to do NADAC agility as well.  I'm not expecting NADAC to make changes for me, I'm just stating a fact. I was a faithful NADAC supporter for years and for a long time it was my only organization. I still enjoy the trials/people and my dogs have fun on the courses, but I will be leaving it behind because of this.

It would be helpful for people to remember that just because you might not think something affects your dogs, this does not mean that everyone else feels the same way. My feelings are valid for my dogs. Given that it seems so very few people even utilize the leash on the ground option, one does have to wonder why NADAC felt it necessary to dictate the leash placement at all.
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: bettyj.carter on February 06, 2020, 06:53:01 AM
I just looked through the AKC rule book and couldn't find the stipulation of  "a minimum of 20' from the last obstacle to the ring fencing."  It did state that jumps should be 15 to 18 feet apart, but I couldn't find information about distance from ring fencing. I have been to MANY an AKC show where the finish jump is very close to the ring barrier, enough so, that I feel I need my dog to wrap the last jump so as not to run into the fence or gate. WAY under 20 feet that you mention. 
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: Kyle on February 06, 2020, 08:33:07 AM
AKC rules stipulate a minimum of 20' from the last obstacle to the ring fencing. There may be some times when that gets squished a little, but at absolutely no point in time was the jump 8' away from the fence. In the one NADAC trial I did in June with these leash rules my dogs 100% did learn where that leash was going to be and it did affect their striding and performance. I will not do that to my dogs as I feel it is detrimental to their performance in other organizations. I have students who compete in NADAC and would like to be able to go and support them, but I will not go so long as this is the standard procedure. Unfortunately this often results in students choosing not to do NADAC agility as well.  I'm not expecting NADAC to make changes for me, I'm just stating a fact. I was a faithful NADAC supporter for years and for a long time it was my only organization. I still enjoy the trials/people and my dogs have fun on the courses, but I will be leaving it behind because of this.

It would be helpful for people to remember that just because you might not think something affects your dogs, this does not mean that everyone else feels the same way. My feelings are valid for my dogs. Given that it seems so very few people even utilize the leash on the ground option, one does have to wonder why NADAC felt it necessary to dictate the leash placement at all.

Karissa,

I'm certainly not going to say that your feelings about how your dogs need to end a run are not valid for you and your dogs. That's all perfectly fine. But, you do seem to be focusing on only one option available to you at NADAC trials. There is no hard and fast rule that says your leash must be placed on the ground (or in a bucket or whatever).

You still have two options available to you using a leash runner. 1.) You can ask the leash runner to just stand at the exit gate and you will take the leash when you get there. 2.) Ask one of your students or a friend to "leash buddy" for you and have them stand where you'd like them to until you come get your leash. Either option would not allow your dog to be approached by someone they may find to be uncomfortable. That issue would be solved. The issue of your students not coming and supporting a NADAC event would also be solved. (In fact, they would now be more involved by "helping" you.) The issue of your dogs coming up short or jamming themselves to a stop would be solved too.

I seriously doubt that anyone is going to complain about your request of having a leash runner stand at the exit gate until you get there. If there was such a complaint, and it was based on the time it takes for you to get to your leash, well, there's other reasons it takes "extra" time for people to leash up their dogs. One of my biggest personal complaints is that leash runners don't always hand me the leash with the loop open. I get handed this wadded ball of leash that I have to untangle. Really time consuming and frustrating for both me and my dog who just want to get out of the ring to celebrate. Another is, as a Bonus handler, my "box" may be at the beginning of the course, or in the middle somewhere, not anywhere near the finish, and I have to hustle my butt aaallllll the way to the finish where the leash runner is (or, if I had asked, where it was dropped). (I guess I really should ask the leash runner to just hang out near the box!  ;) )

It also does not appear that you just "mosey" over to get your leash. From your videos, it kinda looks like you *run* with your dogs.  ;D Sure, maybe you wouldn't want to *run* at the leash runner, but if it looks like you are making a concerted effort to get there in a timely fashion, I just can't see how anyone would/could complain.

So, Karissa, why not try giving either option 1 or 2 that I mentioned above a try? Then you and your students could continue trialing in NADAC and having a great time.

Sincerely,
Kyle
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: KarissaKS on February 06, 2020, 09:38:53 AM
I just looked through the AKC rule book and couldn't find the stipulation of  "a minimum of 20' from the last obstacle to the ring fencing."  It did state that jumps should be 15 to 18 feet apart, but I couldn't find information about distance from ring fencing. I have been to MANY an AKC show where the finish jump is very close to the ring barrier, enough so, that I feel I need my dog to wrap the last jump so as not to run into the fence or gate. WAY under 20 feet that you mention.

Here's a diagram that shows the specs that judges need to follow in their course design.
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on February 06, 2020, 05:21:28 PM
I just looked through the AKC rule book and couldn't find the stipulation of  "a minimum of 20' from the last obstacle to the ring fencing."  It did state that jumps should be 15 to 18 feet apart, but I couldn't find information about distance from ring fencing. I have been to MANY an AKC show where the finish jump is very close to the ring barrier, enough so, that I feel I need my dog to wrap the last jump so as not to run into the fence or gate. WAY under 20 feet that you mention.
I agree!  I can't say I've ever seen the leash placement even 15' from the last obstacle.
Linda
Title: Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on February 12, 2020, 08:15:56 AM
In looking at the finish lines you posted, the leash in NADAC would be even further out of the way and poses no safety issue.  The leash is at least as far back from the last obstacle and off to the side.  The chairs that you showed are probably less than 8' from the last obstacle except for the obstacles which finish inside the course.  In what I have seen, with the leashes being on the ground, there have been no issues of dogs jamming themselves to stop for the leash.  With it being off to the side, and it varying from course to course, the dogs don't really see the leash to do that and they don't pattern to the leash like your dog did with going to the wrong chair.

AKC rules stipulate a minimum of 20' from the last obstacle to the ring fencing. There may be some times when that gets squished a little, but at absolutely no point in time was the jump 8' away from the fence. In the one NADAC trial I did in June with these leash rules my dogs 100% did learn where that leash was going to be and it did affect their striding and performance. I will not do that to my dogs as I feel it is detrimental to their performance in other organizations. I have students who compete in NADAC and would like to be able to go and support them, but I will not go so long as this is the standard procedure. Unfortunately this often results in students choosing not to do NADAC agility as well.  I'm not expecting NADAC to make changes for me, I'm just stating a fact. I was a faithful NADAC supporter for years and for a long time it was my only organization. I still enjoy the trials/people and my dogs have fun on the courses, but I will be leaving it behind because of this.

It would be helpful for people to remember that just because you might not think something affects your dogs, this does not mean that everyone else feels the same way. My feelings are valid for my dogs. Given that it seems so very few people even utilize the leash on the ground option, one does have to wonder why NADAC felt it necessary to dictate the leash placement at all.

Karissa, I can tell you from my experience at the trials that I do in AKC, which granted are limited, there is NO way that the leash is 20' from the barrier or the last obstacle.  Here is a screen shot from a video of one of my novice runs from last summer that shows the last obstacle.  You can't see the ring gate, but you can see from this shot that the person video taping is not 20' away from the end.   And in this case, they had a leash pole just to the left of where you can see.  This made several dogs actually veer towards the leash rather than take the last obstacle. 

I have no doubt your feelings are valid for your dogs and in the end you have to do what you feel is best.  So what is your solution to where the leash should be placed?