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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Donna & Gracie on February 25, 2021, 11:45:03 PM

Title: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Donna & Gracie on February 25, 2021, 11:45:03 PM
So I’m still a little confused on the upcoming changes to all around Natch concerning current points. It took both Hoopers and Barrelers point together to earn the AllAround. If I have earned Natch 3 with both classes but I have Natch 4 in Hoopers but not enough yet in Barrelers, so what happens to my Natch 4 in Hoopers ? Is it now a stand alone Natch ? Or wound those 10 Q’s go towards the new scoring system. Will the extra points in my Barrelers class above my last Natch (40 points) be transferred over into the combined class once that goes into effect or does it start now ? I hope I’m not the only one with these questions and my asking these questions is helpful. Thanks
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: dogrsqr on February 26, 2021, 07:02:03 AM
The way I read it was that any points not already used for an AA Natch would be combined and put into the new class when the change happens. 

Gina Pizzo
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: knittingdog on February 26, 2021, 09:35:14 AM

For the Elite All Around Award, do the Hoopers and Barrelers points combine at each level or is it just Hoopers?  In other words, if I have 30 Barrelers points and 70 Hoopers points in Novice, does that give me the 100 Novice points in the new class that I need for the EAA?

Thanks!
Robin

Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: mablives on February 28, 2021, 03:49:30 PM
I am still confused.  My pup is close to his 1st All Around NATCH. He has Hoopers 110, Brs 80.  would this combine to get him his NATCH or what does he need?  He is now 12 and is ready to retire.  The clubs around me do not offer these classes most of the time.
The statement is " The reason we’re doing it this way is because we do not want to take away any All Around NATCH’s that have been earned, we don’t want anyone having to ‘start fresh’, and we also don’t want to do a straight combination as that would be a large number of All Around NATCH’s being given out, without the work being put in for them."  He has worked hard for what he has.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Salli Dulco on February 28, 2021, 10:52:34 PM
Hello NADAC.
What classes will be required to get the All Around title?

Thank you,
Salli Dulco

Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Lindsey Cooper on March 01, 2021, 09:58:44 AM
The changes for the combined hoopers/barrelers class won't take effect until Jan 1, 2022.

If you are currently working towards and AA NATCH, keep going as usual for this year!

After Jan 1, 2022 - any points that are not enough to equal an AA NATCH will combine.

Examples:
1. You have 110 barrelers and 50 hoopers. They will combine to 160 br + hp, so you will have AA NATCH 1, plus 30 points towards AA NATCH 2.

2. You have earned AA NATCH 1 and have 30 barrelers and 20 hoopers towards AA NATCH 2. You will still have AA NATCH 1, but now you will have 50 br + hp points towards AA NATCH 2 and will need 50 more points from the combined class for AA NATCH 2.

After Jan 1, 2022 the classes needed for AA NATCH will be either Gamblers or the new combined barrelers/hoopers class.

Lindsey
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Chris Nelson on March 01, 2021, 10:59:39 AM
I was going to reply but I think Lindsey summed it up pretty perfectly!
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: knittingdog on March 01, 2021, 06:18:58 PM

Chris,

For the Elite All Around Award, you need 100 points in Hoopers in Novice and Open.  Will those combine with Barrelers into the new combined class also?

Working on this with Surge at the moment is why I'm asking.

Thanks!
Robin
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Salli Dulco on March 01, 2021, 08:39:18 PM
Hi Chris,
My question on the survey and on this thread is in regards to the All Around Title ... not the All Around NATCH.

How will the combined Hoopers/Barrelers class impact the points required for All Around Title?  It is my understanding that Hoopers superior title plus the Superior titles in Regular, Chances, Jumpers, TNG, Weavers, and Tunnelers were the classes needed for the All Around.
Barrelers and Gamblers were not part of this title.

What is the requirement going to be for this title?  Superior in Hoopers/Barrelers combined? Or?

Thank you,
Salli Dulco
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility on March 02, 2021, 02:37:36 PM
Just to be clear, at the end of 2021, if my dog has 360 Elite Hoopers and 160  Elite Barrelers:
Dog has AA1 (130 hooper and barrelers)
jan 2022, dog has 230 extra elite hoopers and 30 extra barrelers.  This combined is 260 which now earns AA2 and AA3 with 30 left over correct?
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Chris Nelson on March 03, 2021, 12:06:29 PM

Chris,

For the Elite All Around Award, you need 100 points in Hoopers in Novice and Open.  Will those combine with Barrelers into the new combined class also?

Working on this with Surge at the moment is why I'm asking.

Thanks!
Robin


Intro, Novice and Open will be a straight combination, nothing fancy there.   So if you have 50 points in Barrelers and 50 points in Hoopers you would have 100 point in the new class.

Hi Chris,
My question on the survey and on this thread is in regards to the All Around Title ... not the All Around NATCH.

How will the combined Hoopers/Barrelers class impact the points required for All Around Title?  It is my understanding that Hoopers superior title plus the Superior titles in Regular, Chances, Jumpers, TNG, Weavers, and Tunnelers were the classes needed for the All Around.
Barrelers and Gamblers were not part of this title.

What is the requirement going to be for this title?  Superior in Hoopers/Barrelers combined? Or?

Thank you,
Salli Dulco

That is something that will most likely go to a vote.

My personal preference is that the All Around award would consist of every class, as that just makes the most sense.   so it would be the combined class, plus gamblers. 
But that is something we will let people vote on, since it would have a pretty drastic effect on a lot of things, and those type of decisions we leave to the competitors :)

Just to be clear, at the end of 2021, if my dog has 360 Elite Hoopers and 160  Elite Barrelers:
Dog has AA1 (130 hooper and barrelers)
jan 2022, dog has 230 extra elite hoopers and 30 extra barrelers.  This combined is 260 which now earns AA2 and AA3 with 30 left over correct?


Correct!   anything above the last earned AA-NATCH
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Salli Dulco on March 03, 2021, 04:53:56 PM
Hi Chris,
When would this member vote take place for the Elite All Around title?
I suppose there are dogs who currently are not competing in Gamblers or Barrelers currently, by choice.

And, if the handler aspires that their dogs achieve the Elite All Around, which is currently only Hoopers, then they would want to know sooner, I would think, rather than later, to start earning the points in the classes involved in earning the title.

For instance, I personally do not care for Gamblers. I know others love it. That is not the discussion.  And, I want my dogs to earn the coveted Elite All Around title. I will always enter them in Hoopers because of that. I won’t always enter them in Gamblers because it has not been required for anything, except the All Around NATCH, of which I have had a choice between Barrelers or Gamblers.  And, had I known that Gamblers was going to be a potential class for the All Around, then I would not have missed the opportunity to have entered this class at trials at the Elite level.

I am pretty sure I am not alone in this thought of wanting to know sooner versus later.

Thank you,
Salli Dulco

Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Edraith on March 03, 2021, 06:56:06 PM
maybe there could be a 'grandfathing in' for that case? like gamblers not required for those dogs currently entered in nadac and have elite points in hoopers and barrelers [since gamblers is new], they would just need enough points 'as if' filling both classes (even post-merge, i cannot remember if it is 100 or 130 for all around but let's say 100 for easy math: ex: dog has 80 elite points in hoopers, 30 elite points in barrelers at merge date. Dog would need to earn 90 more points in the new combined class for All Around: 200-80-30 = 90.)
Dogs without elite points in BOTH hoopers AND barrelers upon merge date, then would need combined hoop/barrel plus gamblers.

ie let the dogs on the current hooper and barreler path stay on hooper and barrel post-merge; new dogs need the new requirements of combo hoop/barrel class plus gamble; and you don't require fewer q's of the 'old path' to finish up so there is no 'cheapening'
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: arne on March 03, 2021, 08:54:04 PM
In my opinion, it seems like the new AA NATCH criteria kind of takes away a bit from the significance of a NATCH. Once you have made the achievement of getting a VNATCH, after 2021 it will only take 13 extra Qs to get another NATCH.  An AA NATCH was already less demanding than getting another NATCH or another VNATCH because only 23 Qs were required. I understand the AA NATCH builds on the VNATCH but I feel like the paths to any additional NATCH should be comparable.  If 10 Qs in both Barrelers/Hoopers  AND  Gamblers was required (instead of OR), the path to the AA NATCH would be at least a little closer to the others.

Just my opinion.

Arne Lindberg
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: knittingdog on March 04, 2021, 06:18:52 AM


I'm with Salli regarding the All Around Award.  Many of us started Gamblers at the Elite level since we were already in Elite Chances.  If you require it for the All Around Award, then it's adding Novice and Open Gamblers points from the start for some of us.  And since Gamblers is only offered at some trials, it will be difficult for many people.

I admit I'm not a fan of Gamblers either, but to each his own.  I love older style Gamblers with the first 30 seconds to get points and then do the gamble when the whistle blows.  Again - to each his own.

Would be great to know soon what the plan is!

Robin
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: dogrsqr on March 04, 2021, 07:43:21 AM
I think most people are happy if you only require Gamblers or the new combo class for the AANatch.  With so many classes it is really hard to offer them all at a trial unless you have 3 day trials.  That makes it harder to get even an opportunity to run Gamblers or the new combo class.  We don't have any 3 day trials in our area because the cost to rent space is more than the entries will cover..  At most we get a few 2 1/2 day trials.

Gina Pizzo
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Billie Rosen on March 04, 2021, 09:31:09 AM
I am probably in the minority here, but I think the All Around NATCH SHOULD be hard to achieve.  The V-NATCH takes 3 more classes than the NATCH.  The name of this NATCH is All Around.  So I think it should take 100 points in BOTH Gamblers and the new Combined Class of Hoopers and Barrelers.  I personally am not big on Hoopers, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't work at achieving proficiency in it.  As to how often Gamblers (or any other class) is offered, with Hoopers and Barrelers being combined, that will be less of an issue.
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Chris Nelson on March 09, 2021, 11:21:46 AM
I think everyone has good points.

And as is the case with these situations, it's not really a clear choice for one way or the other.

To answer the few questions that I can though:

1) A vote will probably happen in the next month or so.  I have a few other pressing issues to deal with that are taking up the majority of my time, but once those things are settled we can circle back around to this.

2) Grandfathering in is definitely an option.   

3) I would have to agree that I think the All Around NATCH should be both classes.       
In all honesty I actually believe that the All Around NATCH shouldn't even be a thing, I think there should be a NATCH and Versatility NATCH, and the versatility NATCH encompasses all the other classes outside of Regular, Jumpers and Chances.     But that's just because I think it would make the award a bigger accomplishment and I personally like that.    But, that is why we do votes and we don't just do everything the way I want them to be, cause I'm sure something like that would upset a lot of people for better or worse :)

Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Linda W. Anderson on March 09, 2021, 04:01:34 PM
Chris,  You're the best!!  Thanks for all you do.
Linda
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Billie Rosen on March 10, 2021, 04:50:50 AM
There's a solution to that - NADAC could decide that if you grandfathered in, then you only need the Superior points in the level you started in and after.
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on March 10, 2021, 02:04:19 PM
I think everyone has good points.

And as is the case with these situations, it's not really a clear choice for one way or the other.

To answer the few questions that I can though:

1) A vote will probably happen in the next month or so.  I have a few other pressing issues to deal with that are taking up the majority of my time, but once those things are settled we can circle back around to this.

2) Grandfathering in is definitely an option.   

3) I would have to agree that I think the All Around NATCH should be both classes.       
In all honesty I actually believe that the All Around NATCH shouldn't even be a thing, I think there should be a NATCH and Versatility NATCH, and the versatility NATCH encompasses all the other classes outside of Regular, Jumpers and Chances.     But that's just because I think it would make the award a bigger accomplishment and I personally like that.    But, that is why we do votes and we don't just do everything the way I want them to be, cause I'm sure something like that would upset a lot of people for better or worse :)

While I agree with you on the "V-NATCH" should be more difficult, etc, and I like that idea, IMO, there are just not enough runs in a day to require ALL of the events for a VNATCH.  Certain areas are big on hoopers and barrelers, and others don't even have them at all.  I know clubs that don't offer gamblers because they personally don't like the event, but love barrelers, so they always have barrelers.  Other clubs may not offer either.  And then there is the cost to the competitor.  I can't afford to, nor will I run my dogs in 8 runs a day even if they offered all of them each day.  I would think that there are others like me, and you would see them simply pare back to the events that they can earn their NATCH in and forgo the others.  I personally like the "stepped up" versions of NATCH's that are out there.  But, I understand where you are coming from too. 
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: giddyup on March 20, 2021, 12:10:13 PM
with all the discussions on the hooper/barreler & gambler classes and points needed for AA natches or awards, is there someplace on the website to get an updated version of all the different awards and the requirements needed for each award Nadac offers?
(and it's probably just me, but I can't seem to open attachments on the forum; that's why I'm asking if there's something on the website)
Thanks
Jill Nestor
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Marj Vincent on March 21, 2021, 08:08:10 AM
with all the discussions on the hooper/barreler & gambler classes and points needed for AA natches or awards, is there someplace on the website to get an updated version of all the different awards and the requirements needed for each award Nadac offers?
(and it's probably just me, but I can't seem to open attachments on the forum; that's why I'm asking if there's something on the website)
Thanks
Jill Nestor

Hi Jim,
Yes there is.  On the website, under the Data Center tab, there is a Titles and Awards in the pull down menu, click that and then click on Awards list.  There is also a very handy Titles check list document to track your points earned.
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: giddyup on March 21, 2021, 08:13:45 AM
Hi Marj,
  Thanks but when you click on awards list, it says "page not found".  That's why I was looking for an updated one? 
Jill Nestor
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Chris Nelson on March 21, 2021, 10:27:10 AM
Hi Marj,
  Thanks but when you click on awards list, it says "page not found".  That's why I was looking for an updated one? 
Jill Nestor
Just got that fixed!
Title: Re: Hoopers/barrelers All Around Natch current points questions
Post by: Jim geiser on March 23, 2021, 05:25:05 PM
Will the new class include tunnels? If so maybe it should be called cylinders?

Thanks,
Jim