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31
General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by KarissaKS on December 12, 2017, 06:41:45 PM »
Quote
Are you talking about VT driving them away?

No, I'm talking about the attitude of "this is our game and if you don't like it you can leave" -- but then in the same breath crying about a lack of NADAC trials.

And for the record, I have talked to a number of competitors in other organizations who did cite the VT program as being a reason they don't respect NADAC enough to spend their money on it. I have also talked to NADAC competitors (past and present) who cited disdain for the VT program.

I fought against the program when the points were first combined. I lost then. I did less NADAC. I appear to have made zero impact this time. I am made to feel that my opinions don't count and that I'm wrong to feel the way I do. I am one of those apparent "rare" trainers who can and does train for skills across the board, and when I give my opinion and share things I hear at other trials I am essentially told that I don't count.

If you want to keep NADAC a club for NADAC purists then keep doing what you are doing. If you want to grow your numbers and draw in people who do other organizations then maybe be a bit more open to listening to why people don't want to do NADAC.

Also for the record, I was at a NADAC trial this weekend where a handful of people came up and said, "I saw what you posted and think you made good points" -- but not everyone is "brave" enough to speak up on these matters for whatever reason.

In addition to me having no faith that people adhere to the "first try" rule in VT submissions, I've also seen a number of examples of runs listed as qualifying that shouldn't have been. I saw a qualifying run in Chances with a dropped bar. I saw a qualifying run in Weavers where the dog skipped poles. I've seen submissions that were so blurry and from such a distance that I couldn't even see the bar, much less if one dropped or the contact angles are terrible. All of this is what goes to form my opinion that the VT program is not legit or on par with scores earned at trials.
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by dogrsqr on December 12, 2017, 06:19:15 PM »
Frankly, the posts that say, "You don't even do VT so your opinion doesn't matter" don't do much to retain those of us who do currently support NADAC while competing in multiple organizations.

Also, as a trainer, I can't force my students to train for distance. I regularly share videos that show me working my dogs at a distance AND doing "international" skills. Quite honestly, the distance videos seem to get more interest and comments -- but I don't have one single person who has come to me and said, "Can you teach me to do that?" After my first batch of students went to their first NADAC trial, where they were exposed to Chances for the first time, I was asked to have a distance-specific class. I put it on the next schedule. Do you know how many people signed up? ONE. She admitted that she felt what she learned over those 6 weeks helped her in all of the courses we run, but after doing one NADAC trial and one AKC trial she said she thinks she'd rather do AKC. Why? Not sure, you'd have to ask her.

There are many reasons people don't do NADAC. Maybe you should ask them. Meanwhile maybe you should stop driving away the people who do include NADAC trials in their multi-venue pursuits.

Are you talking about VT driving them away?

I guess I will just say that there is always going to be some things that individuals will disagree with about any organization.  Some people will be drawn in by VT and some will be driven away by it. 

I used to trial in another venue, not a lot but the local trials.  When I came back to it with Abbey I found some things that I didn't like that were deal breakers to me so I quit entering even the local trials.  I didn't feel like I was driven away ... just that what was important to me wasn't part of that organization. In addition what has happened here is that all trials except the NADAC trials are indoors on matting in spaces that would make me claustrophobic.  While others seem to really enjoy that it's just not for me.


Gina

Sorry that really is Gina, using the club computer and showing up as Kelly.   .
33
General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by BeckyAH on December 12, 2017, 06:17:21 PM »
   Face it, weekly classes are places where folks meet other dog people and develop friendships.  They don't want to be kicked out into the unknown...
I'm certainly NOT talking about trainers who are open to teaching cross venue skills and who have and do step into the NADAC arena.

Becky

Yes.

Honestly, the most 'resistance' I see to NADAC has not a thing to do with the VT program - or distance.  It is, at the very basic level, the same reasons people  don't do any other agility venue - or actively mock and dislike them - and it has very, very little to do with courses, obstacles, vt programs (or not) or any other specific.

It's comfort zone.  It is straight up comfort zone.  I started in a class that used hoops and barrels and also had a teeter and chute (before it was removed) and tire and table - but the trainer has a NADAC club.  That means that when I finished classes, I folded into a NADAC club.  I do NADAC at private lessons, I do NADAC at club practices, I do NADAC trials.  NADAC is where my people are.   I didn't make a carefully considered decision as to where I would trial - I went with what was available close and within that where the people I am comfortable with were.  I have stayed almost entirely exclusively there because the longer I am in NADAC the more comfortable it is and the more different the other venues 'feel' to me and less interest I have.  Take all of that and apply it to a CPE, USDAA, or AKC competitor, only in reverse.

I had one person who thought even NADAC regular didn't have jumps - they just assumed we were more different and required so many completely unique skills that there was no point.  Not true, but given how hard I side-eye an AKC course after a while in NADAC, I can understand it.

And of course there's some general derision but that's always the sort that comes with 'the venue I run in/country I run in/system I run in is the best and nothing else counts' type crap that you really have to dismiss out of hand.  It's all basically justification and nonsense, and it's never based on anything solid except ego, pride, and/or justification for not wanting to leave their comfort zone (and again - I like my comfort zone so I can hardly complain).

Not that I don't hear specific reasons (rather than complaints) people don't run NADAC; I do.  A rulebook that's not up to date and frequently changing rules is a REALLY common one.  Otherwise?  That's just about it, online or off.    Sometimes stuff about their dogs being conditioned to tug into and out of the ring and not wanting to confuse the dog/take away their reward.   Some stuff about the expense of NADAC compliant equipment.

Mostly - comfort zone stuff (including comfort zone training things).

What I don't hear are complaints about the people, the dog, the atmosphere, or any real resistance to the actual agility - or anyone complaining about VT trials.

Frankly, unless we become AKC-lite, all of this stuff is going to apply.  And if we become AKC the second, we're going to lose other people.   Honestly the best bet for boosting numbers would probably to be getting out of our comfort zone, going to other venues and trials, making friends and bringing them back.  But I like my comfort zone, darn it, and as discussed elsewhere there are still time and money considerations.
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by KellyDittmar on December 12, 2017, 06:16:39 PM »
Frankly, the posts that say, "You don't even do VT so your opinion doesn't matter" don't do much to retain those of us who do currently support NADAC while competing in multiple organizations.

Also, as a trainer, I can't force my students to train for distance. I regularly share videos that show me working my dogs at a distance AND doing "international" skills. Quite honestly, the distance videos seem to get more interest and comments -- but I don't have one single person who has come to me and said, "Can you teach me to do that?" After my first batch of students went to their first NADAC trial, where they were exposed to Chances for the first time, I was asked to have a distance-specific class. I put it on the next schedule. Do you know how many people signed up? ONE. She admitted that she felt what she learned over those 6 weeks helped her in all of the courses we run, but after doing one NADAC trial and one AKC trial she said she thinks she'd rather do AKC. Why? Not sure, you'd have to ask her.

There are many reasons people don't do NADAC. Maybe you should ask them. Meanwhile maybe you should stop driving away the people who do include NADAC trials in their multi-venue pursuits.

Are you talking about VT driving them away?

I guess I will just say that there is always going to be some things that individuals will disagree with about any organization.  Some people will be drawn in by VT and some will be driven away by it. 

I used to trial in another venue, not a lot but the local trials.  When I came back to it with Abbey I found some things that I didn't like that were deal breakers to me so I quit entering even the local trials.  I didn't feel like I was driven away ... just that what was important to me wasn't part of that organization. In addition what has happened here is that all trials except the NADAC trials are indoors on matting in spaces that would make me claustrophobic.  While others seem to really enjoy that it's just not for me.


Gina
35
General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by KarissaKS on December 12, 2017, 05:08:36 PM »
Frankly, the posts that say, "You don't even do VT so your opinion doesn't matter" don't do much to retain those of us who do currently support NADAC while competing in multiple organizations.

Also, as a trainer, I can't force my students to train for distance. I regularly share videos that show me working my dogs at a distance AND doing "international" skills. Quite honestly, the distance videos seem to get more interest and comments -- but I don't have one single person who has come to me and said, "Can you teach me to do that?" After my first batch of students went to their first NADAC trial, where they were exposed to Chances for the first time, I was asked to have a distance-specific class. I put it on the next schedule. Do you know how many people signed up? ONE. She admitted that she felt what she learned over those 6 weeks helped her in all of the courses we run, but after doing one NADAC trial and one AKC trial she said she thinks she'd rather do AKC. Why? Not sure, you'd have to ask her.

There are many reasons people don't do NADAC. Maybe you should ask them. Meanwhile maybe you should stop driving away the people who do include NADAC trials in their multi-venue pursuits.
36
General Discussion / Re: VT Voting Results
« Last post by Richard Wolfe on December 12, 2017, 04:26:00 PM »
This seems to me a very reasonable revamping of the program.

Thank you, Chris and NADAC staff, for allowing the competitors (customers) of NADAC the chance for input!!!!
37
General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by Becky Woodruff on December 12, 2017, 03:11:40 PM »
Thank you Audri.

I believe therein lies one of the problems with declining entries (there are other reasons as have been brought up).  Many trainers don't know how to train for NADAC or have never stepped into a NADAC ring, yet they freely bash and bad mouth the organization, which does hurt the new people coming into the sport or those who are "kicked out of class" because they cross venue or want to try NADAC.   Face it, weekly classes are places where folks meet other dog people and develop friendships.  They don't want to be kicked out into the unknown...
I'm certainly NOT talking about trainers who are open to teaching cross venue skills and who have and do step into the NADAC arena.

Becky
38
General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso on December 12, 2017, 09:20:41 AM »
Quote
I tend to be of the opinion that being highly concerned about other people's opinion of the validity of your titles or  organization choices is a personal problem - not a problem with the organization or for the organization to solve.

When an organization is trying to solve the problem of dwindling trial numbers and can't figure out why people are leaving NADAC, then this does become a problem for the organization to solve. If people won't do NADAC because they think the titles are a joke then that IS a problem for the organization. This is not about my feelings, it's about one of the reasons why NADAC numbers have dropped since the inception of the VT program.

Also, as a person operating a business and deriving at least a portion of my income from training others to do agility, it does matter if people think my titles are a joke because I am less likely to obtain their business. So this sort of thing directly affects me.

Karissa

Trainers around here have always said NADAC was a joke.  This was going on LOOOOONG before VT trials.  When I first started in 2009, I went to a run through at a local place that trained for AKC.  The person running it told me that she won't do the "crazy distance" that is needed for NADAC.  Another trainer, who happens to be a friend of mine, said that she won't do NADAC because she does USDAA and she doesn't want her dog to work that far away from her.  Another VERY well known trainer, kicked my friends out of her class because they used "go on" and she thought of that as a NADAC phrase and knew they were doing NADAC.
So, it isn't the VT program that people don't like, it is NADAC in general and the VT program gives them something to poke at.  They can point to the VT runs as a reason NOT to do NADAC, while the reality is, that they don't know how to TRAIN to be successful in NADAC.  They don't know how to train the dog for distance and they don't know how to train for independent obstacle performance.  And if they can't be successful in an organization, then they can't get students to train with them.  If they don't have students, they are out of business.  SOOOO, if they are successful in AKC or USDAA, then they can brag about their titles and get students. 

I am currently training with Calypso at an AKC place.  I go there because it is convenient, but is the trainer really able to train me?  Nope.  She can give me some pointers on wraps or backsides, but Calypso runs at a distance from me and she has no clue how to help me with that.   If I had another option would I go to her?  Nope because she can't possibly train me as I need to be trained.  If I didn't know about NADAC at the time that I started with her, would she encourage me to run it?  Nope, because she can't run it, so she doesn't train it, thus doesn't encourage others to run it.  Heck, she didn't even know what a NADAC course looked like until I gave her some course maps. 
39
General Discussion / Re: Different barrel brands
« Last post by Lynne Almeida on December 11, 2017, 07:25:45 PM »
Ooo, those look good Robin!  Less expensive than the seventeen flat ones, but similar.  :D

-Lynne
40
General Discussion / Re: Different barrel brands
« Last post by knittingdog on December 11, 2017, 02:06:24 PM »

Thanks Lynne!

These seem to be the best option at the moment although I haven't gone to look at them yet.

https://www.teskeys.com/tight-turn-flex-barrels.html

Robin
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