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81
General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by KarissaKS on December 08, 2017, 02:50:08 PM »
Obviously I am not a supporter of the VT program.

As someone who trials in multiple venues, I *do* feel that it affects me. It affects me because people make fun of NADAC and I feel I am constantly having to defend my decision to continue to participate in this organization. I feel very strongly that there is a huge difference between qualifying runs earned at a trial versus in a VT scenario. I am proud of every Q and title I have earned in a trial setting, under trial stress, possibly dealing with inclement weather, and running the courses presented in front of me on that day. With VT you can pick and choose what courses you run based on your strengths, you can set up the course on a beautiful clear day, you don't have dozens of barking dogs in the background, you get more time to familiarize yourself with the course, and of course, the cheaters are practicing. It's just not the same. I don't think they should count for the same. The majority of the agility community thinks it's ridiculous that you can earn titles by submitting runs you ran at home.

I have been working hard to support the NADAC trials in my area and get people to attend them -- and as a trainer, I encourage my students to attend NADAC trials and we work on skills that will help them to be successful in NADAC. But I cannot defend VT. I do not support the program and I never will. If it makes my titles a joke to the rest of the agility world then why am I spending so much time and money to attain them?
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by Marj Vincent on December 08, 2017, 12:58:11 PM »
I agree the VT program is a wonderful venue for those that don't have the opportunity to trial due to a lack of trials near them or for other personal/dog reasons.  And it probably does need to be reviewed,  especially if the income is not justifying the work load. I think the $10 cost is very fair.  I also want to thank Chris, Amanda, and Jimmy for all your hard work!

Many years ago, when the VT program first came on board, a group of my friends were having dinner and one very close friend was absolutely pissed off about this new program. This person was raging and ranting about how unfair it was to earn a Q in your own back yard. I turned to this person and calmly asked one question...."Does this VT program effect you in any way?"  After a few moments the frustration and rage left their face and the person responded with "NO, it doesn't."   This person then thanked me for slapping them on the side of the head and bringing clarity to their perspective. 

As I think about the current discussion about cheating or how someone is using the program because their dog can't deal with a trial situation....I go back to my first question.  "Does this effect me in any way"  My answer is still 'NO'. In reality, it is their guilt or decisions, not mine.  Life is too short to worry about what other people are doing.


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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by Lin Battaglia on December 08, 2017, 11:15:46 AM »
If you take 10-15 dogs out of a trial, that can make or break a trial. For one dog at $10 per run / 8 runs a day. You do the math. It has a big impact. Add in all the costs of a trial that Chris mentioned and trials need your support. I always questioned why dogs that are aggressive or too shy or whatever to run at trials are allowed VTs, their tests aren't the same for all dogs running at trials. Isn't that part of earning those points ? It's not the same. 
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by Chris Nelson on December 08, 2017, 10:31:59 AM »
In regards to some of the changes that don't really make sense to people given the original reasoning for the changes.

Cost:
The original idea behind the VT program was that it was based on good ethics and morals.   Because of that it was designed with very little oversight.    But because of the recent issues we are now going to be spending a LOT more time checking every single submission that comes in.    Time is already something we are always very short on.     So if we are doubling the amount of time we spend on the VT program the cost will reflect that.

Distance: 
This does actually apply pretty directly to the abusing the rules issue.      People are NOT supposed to submit VT's when there is a trial nearby.   The current mileage is 200 miles from a trial, and if you want to submit VT's you have to get permission from the club.     Again this was always done on good faith, but now we are going to be patrolling it.    And this was just a good time to get a vote on what people really want for a mileage limit.


All the other questions that we left up to a vote are in relation to what people feel is fair.    And if people do continue to find a way to cheat, at least they will be more limited in what they can achieve by doing so.    Yes this would affect the good people too, but right now the vote is leaning towards the submission limit being 10 runs per month, per dog.    Which I think is okay.    For a program that is a courtesy, I think that's pretty generous and if you want to earn more titles quicker, then you need to trial as well.     I think it's actually one of the better things that will come out of the VT program update.    People can still submit and get their Q's, but if they want to earn those awards faster, well you'll need to pack your bags and support your clubs.
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by Chris Nelson on December 08, 2017, 10:22:01 AM »
Chris that list is awesome.  Is that total or per year? 
That was for 2016.   And it's number of Q's
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General Discussion / Re: Western Regional winners
« Last post by Chris Nelson on December 08, 2017, 10:19:53 AM »
Kyle's explanation is correct.

You get a invitation to Champs, so if you don't quite meet the qualification requirements you're still good to go.
And you get into the finals round, regardless of where you placed in the rounds leading up to finals.

We'll have to see how it works for this year, since it's still a new idea for us.
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by HarryMelamed on December 08, 2017, 09:39:24 AM »
Looks like I missed all of the fun while I was out of town.

There are a few things that concern me (besides my erratic handling)

$10 seems a little high per run.
Been doing these for 3 years and wasn't aware I could cheat.  Could someone clue me in on what I can do to get those last Chances runs for my NATCH?

Chris, so sorry you have to face nastiness.  Hang in there.

Happy Holidays to all!
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by Sheila & the Shelties on December 07, 2017, 06:06:08 PM »
You are probably right, Rosemary, and that's why I was commenting.  Is the whole program up for review, or is it just dealing with the cheating?
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General Discussion / Re: Western Regional winners
« Last post by Sheila & the Shelties on December 07, 2017, 05:59:34 PM »
I think you are right, Kyle. That may have been the confusion. Until recently, I was unfamiliar with the term "bye: as it related to sports. I just want to get it clarified so that I know I have to up my savings program if I want to go to Champs next year.

Thanks, Sharon, that would be great to have a certificate. That way if we needed any documentation of our status, we would have it. But what exactly is the status of the award for the winners?
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General Discussion / Re: Possible VT solutions
« Last post by Rosemary on December 07, 2017, 11:24:36 AM »
I may be wrong, Sheila, but I am guessing that since a problem has come to light regarding the current state of the VT program Chris and company have decided to address the program as a whole and make any changes necessary at one time. 

I do not participate in the VT program, but I do see the value of it for those who have little opportunity to attend actual trials. 

Often you will hear someone say "I'm not hurting anyone".  I do hope that the folks who were dishonest will see that they are, in fact, potentially hurting someone after all.

Thank you Chris, Amanda, Jimmy, Becky and everyone else at NADAC HQ for all of your hard work.
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