Author Topic: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia  (Read 2489 times)

VT-MIKE

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Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« on: March 20, 2013, 02:47:41 PM »

Hi All,

Could some tell me how come the Nadac Australia trials get to run most weekends under the following format of runs

Sat: 2 Reg, 2 J, 2 Tn
Sun: 2 CC, 2 Reg, Hp (numbered), Wv
Reference - http://nadacaustralia.com/Trial%20Listings.html

But most trials in the USA are formated where in america we only get 2 regular runs, 1 chances and 1 jumpers most weekends?

Sat: 2 Touch N Go, 2 Regular, Chances, Jumpers
Sun: Jumpers, Chances, 2 Regular, Weavers, Tunnelers
Reference - http://www.nadac.com/afrm/trial-calendar.asp

The questions arising are:
1)is there a different NATCH qualifications? They must be get the Natch faster.
2)Why can't USA trials consist of more of the 2reg x 2jumper x 2chances format on the weekends Sat/Sun more, leaving the Friday/Monday (3day trial runs) with more the 2wv, 2 hp, 2 touch & go, 2 tunnelers. It could be just a one day thing of 2 X 2 X 2 +1.
3)Could at least the the 2 jumpers be considered more in the USA?   

Comment: Lastly really liking the NADAC layout of the Australian site - if someone is ever considering a revamping of the American site this would really be the way a nice way to go. It is much simpler in whole.

Kind Regards,
VT- MIKE

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2013, 04:01:59 PM »
I am totally lost and don't understand the question.  Both format have 2 Chances, 4 Regular, 2 Jumpers and 4 non-jumping classes.  Since I approve all trial applications, including the US, Canada and Australia...... Australia doesn't offer (and aren't allowed to offer) anything different than US trials.

There are rules regarding trials.  On a two day weekend there is a maximum of 4 Regular, and 2 of any other class that can be offered.  No more than 4 classes with jumps may be offered on a day.  Many US clubs choose to offer 1 Chances, 2 Reg, and 1 Jumpers per day (except Funraisers and we offer 2 Chances on one day and 2 Jumpers on the other day)......... Clubs will offer the format that their competitors want.  If you would like a different format, maybe you could contact your local clubs and give them some input for a different format of class offerings (as long as you stay within the guidelines).

It is each club's choice as to which classes are offered within those guidelines.  I really don't find anything "different" regarding the classes being offered at the Australian trials. 

They have the exact same titles and awards as "USA" NADAC........... NADAC is NADAC, there are no "other" sets of rules for Australia.

Both of the formats you listed have 4 rounds of Regular, 2 rounds of Jumpers, and 2 rounds of Chances so I wonder how one could think that Australians could earn a NATCH faster?

Maybe I missed something, but I don't understand the question.

Sharon


Hi All,

Could some tell me how come the Nadac Australia trials get to run most weekends under the following format of runs

Sat: 2 Reg, 2 J, 2 Tn
Sun: 2 CC, 2 Reg, Hp (numbered), Wv
Reference - http://nadacaustralia.com/Trial%20Listings.html

But most trials in the USA are formated where in america we only get 2 regular runs, 1 chances and 1 jumpers most weekends?

Sat: 2 Touch N Go, 2 Regular, Chances, Jumpers
Sun: Jumpers, Chances, 2 Regular, Weavers, Tunnelers
Reference - http://www.nadac.com/afrm/trial-calendar.asp

The questions arising are:
1)is there a different NATCH qualifications? They must be get the Natch faster.
2)Why can't USA trials consist of more of the 2reg x 2jumper x 2chances format on the weekends Sat/Sun more, leaving the Friday/Monday (3day trial runs) with more the 2wv, 2 hp, 2 touch & go, 2 tunnelers. It could be just a one day thing of 2 X 2 X 2 +1.
3)Could at least the the 2 jumpers be considered more in the USA?   

Comment: Lastly really liking the NADAC layout of the Australian site - if someone is ever considering a revamping of the American site this would really be the way a nice way to go. It is much simpler in whole.

Kind Regards,
VT- MIKE
Sharon
In-Sync-Agility

Jeff Lyons

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2013, 04:33:50 PM »
Most NADAC USA trials that I have seen are formatted with 2 Regular, 1 Jumpers and 1 Chances PER DAY (plus 2 non jumping classes).  So normally in a 2-day weekend, just like in Australia, you have 4 Reg, 2 Jumpers, 2 CC.  Perhaps some clubs want to create an incentive for people to enter both days, so they will spread out Chances and Jumpers, rather than put them all on one day. 

Jeff L.

Shirlene Clark

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2013, 04:45:47 PM »
Hi VT-Mike,

Sharon is correct....NADAC is NADAC whether it is here in Australia or in the USA or in Canada.

I facilitate the NADAC program in Australia and work very closely with Sharon and the NADAC Office and I can assure we have no "special" rules under which we run NADAC in Australia.  We are still relatively small in critical mass size and I attend every trial that is run in Australia so probably the trials here closely resemble fun-raisers in North America to some extent.  As such we can "test" things like they are tested at fun-raisers.  For example this year we are running a lot of beta trial format testing and we also tested containerised trials very early on.

My attendance at every trial gives me a good indication of what exhibitors want in regards to trial formats and as I personally run the vast majority of trials I can ensure that the mix of classes are well balanced.  I agree with what Sharon said, if you have suggestions for a trial format let your club know.  If it falls within the guidelines and the club agrees that's great :)

I don't believe Australian teams achieve NATCH's any faster than teams in North America.  Indeed our "youth in NADAC" is apparent as we have very few mutliple NATCH teams.  Those that have achieved them probably didn't earn them any faster and certainly earnt them under the same rules :)

Thank you for the compliment re our web site I put a lot or work into it and am still tweaking it on the fly :)  For us our Australian web site is a means of providing some local relevance and information.   Our web site is probably more akin to a local club site.   It was intended to compliment the Offical NADAC web site not replace it :)  I do thank you for the compliment though as I have been self teaching myself how to build it not having any knowledge of how to do it in the beginning :)

I have to say it is wonderful to be part of such a great International group...where Americans, Canadians and Australians on any given weekend are enjoying NADAC under the same rules, on the same courses, facing the same challenges and celebrating the same successes.  How great is this sport ?

I work closely with Sharon ...our Judges work closely with North American Judges and our competitors enjoy all the same highs and lows and rules as you :)



Shirlene Clark
Australia

VT-MIKE

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2013, 05:45:39 PM »
Hi Shirlene,

It was really nice to read your comments and it's great to hear your so involved.
I posted a secondary follow up and did not get to read your comments first so please take note and be understanding. Nadac in the upper northeast is resembling your Australian runs greatly from the looks of it. It's getting late here in Vermont and I'm headed to the TV. I will return with more opening up of this discussion I'm sure.

Kind Regards,

VT-Mike

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2013, 06:26:01 PM »
Hi Shirlene,

It was really nice to read your comments and it's great to hear your so involved.
I posted a secondary follow up and did not get to read your comments first so please take note and be understanding. Nadac in the upper northeast is resembling your Australian runs greatly from the looks of it. It's getting late here in Vermont and I'm headed to the TV. I will return with more opening up of this discussion I'm sure.

Kind Regards,

VT-Mike

if you made another post, Mike, it didn't come through.

Sharon
Sharon
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VT-MIKE

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2013, 08:34:55 PM »
Hi Sharon,

Yes i had made another post. Too bad it did not come though it said had alot in detail.
In gest it is kinda summerized below:

Mostly the way Austrailian Format does the runs it is better for the exihitor cost wise to go for a NATCH.

The US way the trials are formated it is for the club to make as much money as it can while extending the trial same NATCH runs into the two weekend days.

Kind Regards,

VT-MIKE
 

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2013, 08:37:01 PM »
I would love an explanation of that...... Australians also spread the classes over two days, exactly like all Funraisers.  You must attend both days in order to earn Chances, Jumpers and Regular points.

Sharon

Hi Sharon,

Yes i had made another post. Too bad it did not come though it said had alot in detail.
In gest it is kinda summerized below:

Mostly the way Austrailian Format does the runs it is better for the exihitor cost wise to go for a NATCH.

The US way the trials are formated it is for the club to make as much money as it can while extending the trial same NATCH runs into the two weekend days.

Kind Regards,

VT-MIKE
Sharon
In-Sync-Agility

Maureen deHaan

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2013, 03:13:50 AM »
Mike,

As someone who hosts trial here in the Northeast (NY) I will try to give you a little perspective from MY point of view. Trials in the northeast are very VERY small. We need to offer a format that will draw competitors for both days of a trial - competitors who will ENJOY the format and want to return. We need to offer something for EVERYONE not just those who only want a NATCH as fast as they can get it for as cheaply as they can. For MOST people agility is not only about getting the NATCH it is about enjoying a weekend of recreation with their dogs and their friends.

Personally, at the trials *I* host, I offer ONE of each event each day - That way I can serve ALL my competitors at all levels and everyone is happy and gets to play agility all day long. Most people travel to trials and spend the weekend - they are not lucky enough to live close to a trial site - I for example generally travel 2-3 hours minimum to the trials attend.

 I know MANY people, including myself who do not like the 2,2,2 format (ie: 2 Reg, 2 TN, 2 CC or whatever combo you choose) b/c some of us have dogs who do not play ALL the events and therefore those dogs are not served - these people generally SKIP trials under that format -why travel that far to only play agility for one day?? - ( I personally don't b/c my younger dog plays all the events and  my older dog does not does not travel with me much anymore  b/c she is pretty much retired from agility )

 I serve the masses, NOT the Elite only competitors. 

Also, I kind of take offense to your comment about we in the Northeast trying to make as much $ as possible - First of all - I am not sure you really understand what is actually COSTS to hold a trial - The site costs $ and the indoor sites are at least DOUBLE what we pay for outdoor sites, The porta potty costs $, we have to pay our judges and ALL of their travel expenses, we have to pay OUR travel expenses, we have to pay NADAC before and after the trial for trial application fees and recording fees, we have to pay for Equipment rental and/or equipment maintenance, purchasing new up to date equipment that is safe, we have to pay a trial secretary , we have to spend $ for worker snacks, shade tents, volunteer raffles, ribbons don't forget the ribbons!  A NATCH ribbon alone costs around $20 - yearly ribbon budget is about $1000 depending on how many trials a *club* hosts .... We all also offer generous entry discounts to help people be able to enter - that is also taking $$ away from our profit - we don't care - we just want to be able to host a trial!

Generally we clear MAYBE $500 and lay out THOUSANDS.  I have actually had trials where I haven't made a single dollar profit.

So, yes when you say we use a format that will make us money you are partially right, but in reality we use a format that will BRING PEOPLE so we can AFFORD to have the trial where everyone can come a play.

 FYI - I am not a "club" - nor are the *other* northeast clubs (the other 2 that come to mind -who hold the most trials)   - we do not collect dues each year - we do not have a membership base- we pay for the trials based on what they bring in - and if people do not come - then we can't host trials -

We need to offer what will make ALL of our customers happy and want to return - that is the bottom line.

Hope that helps clear things up for you

« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 03:35:24 AM by Maureen deHaan »
Maureen, Nika, Kiva & Zoe
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dogrsqr

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2013, 03:48:46 AM »
I'm guessing Mike is referring to the 2 Jumpers on one day, 2 Chances on one day. 

It is totally up to the clubs to choose which classes to run each day with some minimal rules by NADAC.  Some clubs in the US do offer 2 Chances one day and 2 Jumpers one day.  Most of us choose to run the more "traditional"  2 Regular, 1 Chances and 1 Jumpers each day with the other classes spread out thru the 2 days.  I like it that way because some people do have to work on the weekends and don't get to pick which day they can run agility.

All teams are different, some actually need regular to finish their NATCH (that's usually my downfall).  You'll never satisfy everyone, but  I think most clubs try to run the classes how the majority of their local exhibitors like it.  We usually try to mix up the order as much as possible too running Jumpers 1st one day and last the other etc.

Gina Pizzo
In Minnesota
Gina Pizzo
Abbey, Trek and Shay

Erin Wajda

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2013, 05:12:52 AM »

The US way the trials are formated it is for the club to make as much money as it can while extending the trial same NATCH runs into the two weekend days.


Okay, now I have to reply here.  As a "club" that offers trials that you attend I have to say that we are certainly not in it to make money.  If making money was the goal then I would have stopped putting on trials YEARS ago.  Yes, I am always trying to come up with ways to get more entries and reach the most people, not so that we can make more money, but so that we can survive long enough to offer another fun trial.  And I have to say, I think that we do a lot with next to nothing.

I have always thought of trialing as a fun weekend to get together with friends and have fun with my dogs.  If I earn points towards an award, well that is a fantastic bonus.  If it is now all about what "you" personally need to get a NATCH and not about coming together to support each other so that we can all play this fun game of agility then we will not survive.
Erin Wajda
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Sand Lake, NY

Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2013, 09:17:16 AM »
 I can see what he is saying.  My plan for my dogs and my wallet. Is to run all the Reg, Chances and Jumpers I can and as little of the other.  My feeling is that after the first Natch if we get there and as the dogs get older we will do more of the non jumping classes and less of the other. Again this is to save $$$ not because I do not like all the stuff.  So it comes down to Fun VS Funds

It not the dogs fault stupid!

Nancy H

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2013, 09:36:02 AM »
Well said Erin, and I for one, am very glad and appreciative for all the clubs that offer NADAC agility across New England. I know that the trials have gotten smaller over the years that I have been trialing, and I am very happy for all that the clubs have done to keep NADAC alive in New England!

Nancy and Stewie JRT in New Hampshire
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Maureen deHaan

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2013, 10:05:15 AM »
Trials are not held JUST for people to "get a NATCH" - They are held for ALL people and dogs of ALL ability levels to come and play agility with their dogs and their friends -

When people who do not host trials make  statements about those of us who do, saying that we do it only to make as much money as we can - it is offensive. We work our butts off before, during and after we host trials and people seem to think that we are raking in the $$ - well we are not...

Again, we serve the masses NOT just the elite teams.

Additionally,  it is generally these same people who sit back at trials and WATCH while the rest of us bust our butts all day and don't volunteer to help out...but that is a whole other gripe.

I really don't know where this sense of entitlement has come from , but it is in poor form.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 10:20:17 AM by Maureen deHaan »
Maureen, Nika, Kiva & Zoe
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dogrsqr

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Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2013, 10:39:40 AM »
I can see what he is saying.  My plan for my dogs and my wallet. Is to run all the Reg, Chances and Jumpers I can and as little of the other.  My feeling is that after the first Natch if we get there and as the dogs get older we will do more of the non jumping classes and less of the other. Again this is to save $$$ not because I do not like all the stuff.  So it comes down to Fun VS Funds



I can see what he is saying.  My plan for my dogs and my wallet. Is to run all the Reg, Chances and Jumpers I can and as little of the other.  My feeling is that after the first Natch if we get there and as the dogs get older we will do more of the non jumping classes and less of the other. Again this is to save $$$ not because I do not like all the stuff.  So it comes down to Fun VS Funds



And you can do that, you just might have to trial two days to get all the opportunities available.  I personally think that is another good reason not to have double Chances or double Jumpers on one day.  It give everyone more options. 

Yes we are trying to get as many people to come as possible, doesn't that make sense?  BUT I'm also trying to give EVERYONE the opportunities to run the classes that they want to run.

Gina Pizzo
In Minnesota
Gina Pizzo
Abbey, Trek and Shay