Author Topic: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia  (Read 2497 times)

Sharon Nelson

  • Mother NADAC
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6054
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2013, 11:34:47 AM »
Well, Mike, I don't agree with your figures, but that is okay.  For the first NATCH, one needs 23 Regular, 13 Jumpers, and 13 Chances and for the second and further NATCHes require 20 Regular, 10 Jumpers and 10 Chances.  If you are referring to a first NATCH and doing one day trialing with double runs, then you must attend 7 one day trials that offer Chances and 7 one day trials that offer Jumpers in order to earn that first NATCH.  That is, if everything is perfect and you have one Q left over for the next NATCH.

If you are on your 2nd or subsequent NATCH, then it would take 5 one day trials with Chances and 5 one day trials with Jumpers in the "perfect" qualifying world.  So it would take 14 one day trials for the first NATCH and 10 one day trials for the subsequent NATCHes.

On two days trials it would take 7 two days trials, just like it would take 14 one day trials for the first NATCH.  For the subsequent NATCHes it would take 5 two day trials or 10 one day trials.

The bottom line is that this is personal.............. the figures that you give are the expenses for YOU when you choose between 1 day or 2 day trials.  Many, many others can give a spreadsheet where a two day format is WAY cheaper than single one day trials.  So the "cost" is strictly a personal choice on where you live, how far it is to a trial and your personal expenses for traveling to a trial.   

Every individual has their own personal and financial choices.

You might want to go back to older posts and read about the reaction of "double" runs in the US.  We still do it at funraisers and we still occasionally get flack from it........... in Australia they don't know "other" formats, so they are open minded and accept the formats.

When there are the double runs in Australia, the same course is run twice.  At the Funraisers, the same course is run twice.  But the majority of competitors in the US want the "known" format and not anything "new" and there was a lot of posts and conversations about how good or how horrible that format is.  For the Australians they didn't have the 20 years of the same format and then be offered something different......... change or anything new is difficult.  In Australia, NADAC is still quite new, so changing the format to double runs works.... less course changes, less walk-throughs, faster trials.  But in Australia, Shirlene and Wendy are doing the vast majority of the work..... loading and hauling the equipment to every trial, setting up the ring, running the trial and tearing down and hauling everything back.  So a few less course builds and a few less walk-throughs make a huge difference in the work load.

The "costs" are different for every person and you gave your costs, but that also changes for every competitor.  On either format, it takes the same number of trial days.  And of course, we have been talking about a 100% qualifying team.  That is not likely......... and that starts to change everything, depending on what Q's are needed if one's goal is it earn a NATCH.  You could get down to just needing a Jumpers and if the double Jumpers don't fall into the days that are available for you to take off for that trial day, it could get pretty frustrating.

Everyone has different goals, different finances, and different perspectives.

But NADAC is NADAC, whether it is the USA, Canada or Australia.   It takes the same Q's and the same number of opportunities to earn the exact same titles and awards.

Sharon
Sharon
In-Sync-Agility

agilityjunkie

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 39
    • Agility Junkies
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2013, 11:42:30 AM »
Agility Junkies format for our last two indoor trials has been Sat: 2 Chances 2 Regular 1 TNG and 1 Tunnelers - Sun: 2 Jumpers 2 Reg 1 Weavers and 1 Tunnelers. This format closely resembles the one used in Australia and had nothing to do with anyone's NATCH requirements. It had more to do with our need as a club of middle aged people to finish early on Sunday and have less equipment to load in the truck at the end of the day!!
It's working, too!
Lora Del Page

AndreaL

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 53
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2013, 11:55:43 AM »

Could some tell me how come the Nadac Australia trials get to run most weekends under the following format of runs

Sat: 2 Reg, 2 J, 2 Tn
Sun: 2 CC, 2 Reg, Hp (numbered), Wv

2)Why can't USA trials consist of more of the 2reg x 2jumper x 2chances format on the weekends Sat/Sun more, leaving the Friday/Monday (3day trial runs) with more the 2wv, 2 hp, 2 touch & go, 2 tunnelers. It could be just a one day thing of 2 X 2 X 2 +1.


Hi Mike,

I'm wondering based on the quotes above if you might have misread, and that might be leading to the confusion.  I don't think anyone is running a "2reg x 2jumper x 2chances format" - the trials you have indicated have:

Sat: 2 Reg, 2 J, 2 Tn (no chances)
Sun: 2 CC, 2 Reg, Hp (numbered), Wv (no Jumpers)

They aren't running all the NATCH classes on the same day - you would still have to trial both days to be able to attempt all the available Reg, Chances, and Jumpers classes.
Andrea Lengi
Brie, Pye-Dog, and Audie

mephalon

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 180
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2013, 12:21:48 PM »
Here's a different perspective-  I appreciate the clubs who offer a variety of classes each of the days.   I am not going for my NATCH but still love to trial with my dog.   Very rarely will I attend a 2/2/2 format trial simply because there is not enough variety for me.   I tend to avoid the classes with weaves so if the trial offers 2R/2W/2X it is simply not enough incentive for me to spend my money and time at that trial.   

I also host trials so I know how much work there is with the extra course building each day.   However by offering the variety of classes you reach a bigger audience since people have more to choose from.   It has nothing to do with stretching out how long it takes someone to get a NATCH so we get more entry fees.   I can honestly say that has NEVER come into play with how we set our class schedule.   It is simply about creating the most opportunities for EVERYONE (not just the NATCH worthy) to play. 

Mary
Mary P.

Kelly Wise

  • 2016 Online Seminar Group
  • *****
  • Posts: 20
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2013, 01:39:35 PM »
Hi Mike

Here is someone else's thoughts.

I trial in Australia on what has become more of a regular basis as my knowledge and teamwork has gain more experience. I have blown plenty of run and had a great time doing it with my agility team mate and will continue to.
 To be perfectly honest the word Natch has very really entered my mind. Other words such as Fun, Enjoyment and Team work do quite often.

It is great to see that other people in the world are interested in how Nadac is run in Australia though.  :D

Jeff Lyons

  • Judge
  • *****
  • Posts: 341
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2013, 01:55:20 PM »
Hi Mike,

I think you may have misinterpreted what I said about "incentives to enter both days" as a financial incentive for the club.  No doubt, most clubs want to attract as many exhibitors as possible to offset costs, since putting on a trial is not cheap.  In order to do that, they need to appeal to the needs of the many, rather than the needs of the few (including people who can come one day, or both days).  In order to do that, a club needs to have some incentive for people to come BOTH days.  That is all.  There is nothing greedy about it.  I don't know of anybody getting rich putting on trials.  In every area of the country, clubs try to fit the needs of their exhibitors.  If somebody works Saturdays, and their local club was offering 2 Reg 2 CC on Saturdays and 2 Reg and 2 Jumpers on Sunday, that person is going to have a tough time getting their Chances requirement for their NATCh.  So, by spreading out the incentive to both days, the club appeals to a broader audience. 
Jeff L.

Shirlene Clark

  • Judge
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2013, 02:58:11 PM »
in Australia they don't know "other" formats, so they are open minded and accept the formats.

When there are the double runs in Australia, the same course is run twice.  At the Funraisers, the same course is run twice.  But the majority of competitors in the US want the "known" format and not anything "new" and there was a lot of posts and conversations about how good or how horrible that format is.  For the Australians they didn't have the 20 years of the same format and then be offered something different......... change or anything new is difficult.  In Australia, NADAC is still quite new, so changing the format to double runs works.... less course changes, less walk-throughs, faster trials.  But in Australia, Shirlene and Wendy are doing the vast majority of the work..... loading and hauling the equipment to every trial, setting up the ring, running the trial and tearing down and hauling everything back.  So a few less course builds and a few less walk-throughs make a huge difference in the work load.

Sharon

I certainly have found our exhibitors here to be as a whole group pretty receptive and open minded about most things and I agree I do think that it is largely due to our NADAC youth.

The double runs have been a bit of a life saver for Wendy and I.  It is true that as 2 individuals we have a huge physical workload packing and hauling to every single trial.  We may be young in NADAC years but in actually human years the 2 of us are not getting any younger and I had very real concerns that we would physically burn out.  The double run format has taken some of that physical load off and that is good for us and the NADAC program in Australia.

The other benefit for us is "time".  The trial season in Australia is mainly in the winter months and predominately outdoors.  The race against daylight hours has always been a biggie for us here.  Double run formats give us extra daylight hours...takes a little pressure off and makes for a more enjoyable day.

We don't run all double run formats all of the time....but when we do it works for us :)
Shirlene Clark
Australia

TheQuestKnight

  • *****
  • Posts: 173
  • I'm a Marxist: Groucho, Chico, Harpo, Zeppo, Gummo
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2013, 05:22:10 PM »
Hi . . . old fart with experience here . . .

I've been around this game for more years and in more capacities than I really care to remember . . .

If ANYONE is hosting trials with the idea of getting "rich" in the process, they need to go back to school, consult with some financial folks . . . and develop a MUCH MORE realistic financial plan to attain those goals!

Hosts try their best to please their exhibitor base while taking into account available trial sites, weather, COSTS . . . all of that stuff like that there . . .

For various reasons, my two old fart dogs . . . and one younger old fart dog . . . just do a very limited array of classes . . .

NOBODY is going to get "rich" over our meager entries . . .

Our closest trial is 3.5 hours distant one-way . . . others, that we're willing to consider . . . are up to 9 hours distant, one-way . . . so if it's one or two days, the only real difference is one night in a motel and the attendant meals . . . and we and ours like to eat!!! <VBG>

Since our preferred class is Tunnelers, since all of our dogs can do it . . . 2 Tunnelers on one day . . . or non-jumping trials with the potential of 3-4 Tunnelers runs in the span of two days . . . is our "preferred choice"; but it's NOT the choice of the vast majority of NADAC exhibitors that partake of ALL class offerings . . .

Look folks, EVERYONE is just trying to survive and HAVE FUN in a challenging economic environment . . .

We're NOT "chasing" awards or titles . . . we're just looking to have some FUN with our dogs . . . nothing more, nothing less . . .

. . . and, I guess, that with experience, we're willing to pay for the privilege of doing nothing more than HAVING FUN with "our kids"!!!

Each to his or her own; but don't stress over your choices . . . make your choices and go have fun . . .

Al & Pelli in Ohio   
Castle Camelot: Al, Barb, Dred, Gael & Pellinore . . . and from The Bridge Grill & Pub,  Kali, Flurry, Promise, Chico, Romulus, Trix and Tony.

Lin Battaglia

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 193
    • mdt/Agility Ability LLC
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2013, 09:04:48 PM »
Thanks for speaking up everyone. I am offended too by some of the comments. We mdt-AA has been putting on agility trials for 20+ years. Out west we have the same probelms. Guess it's the nature of the beast. The same people sit in their chairs and complain, letting only a few to do all the work. They don't step up and say "what can I do to help you". They have no idea what it takes. We too are not a club and we're not raking in the money. Rarely do we clear $200-500. So we're always in the hole. I teach so we can put ontrials. We have insurance that seems to go up every year (with no claims), a trailer that has to be licenced and insured (new tirers/shocks), equipment to keep up to date and in good repair, ribbons to buy, hospitality food to offer, raffle gifts, free entries for the committee workers, airfares, hotels and meals for judges, property/venue rentals, NADAC apllication fees, NADAC recording fees/scores, ....etc. etc. Just to put on a trial takes about $2000 months ahead of time. Yet when gas went up, we lowered our entry fees to help everyone out. Everyone gets the same low discounted $10 runs, not just those who do 12 runs divided among their 3-4 dogs. The format we offer is the USA usual and what works for us. So everyone who drives 1/2 an hour to three hours usually can get the most for their effort to attend our trials. Not just show up on Saturday and not come back for Sunday. We appreicate the support we get. Many people have their own agenda and want only what works for them personally.... they have no regard for the other participants as a whole or the club/business putting on the trial. Why do some feel entitled to what they want? We are all struggling across the country to kept playing the sport with we love with the dogs we love. I commend you all. Keep up the good work and have fun! We'll all get thru these trying times.

We would hate to quit. 
LinB
mdt-AA
Nevada   

VT-MIKE

  • *****
  • Posts: 11
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2013, 04:51:03 AM »
Hi Sharon,

Can you please call me when you get a chance 802-591-0418.

Mike
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 02:35:03 PM by VT-MIKE »

Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2013, 07:31:28 AM »
I run 3 dogs in agility.  For 2 of them I usually do all of the events all of the time.  The third does limited events, mostly tunnelers.  If there are 2 tunnelers on 1 day, then she is likely to sit in her crate all day of the day without the tunnelers runs.  Sometimes I might I simply enter her into an event that other day and let her have fun with it.  It all depends on my $$ situation at the time.  Most clubs also have 2X tunnelers runs in one weekend and only 1X weavers or TNG.  I personally would like to see more of the TNG and weavers runs, but I understand why clubs do 2X tunnelers.  Novice handlers tend to start in that event or are at least more successful in that event.  I know I did.  It is a fun event and low stress for the dogs and handlers both.  It gets the Novice started so they can begin to enjoy the fun of agility.  So whatever the format, if I am available and want to trial that weekend, I do.  My dogs don't really care as long as they can go and play.  Yes, they have their favorite events, but they don't know what they are running until they are out on the course anyway. 
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso

Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2013, 09:19:28 AM »
I hope no one  thinks people run trails for a profit.  I hope people help work when they can.  as I said I chose not to run some runs to save money but I do not expect trails to be set up they way I want them.  I did not even know that NADAC tried to do the same run twice. I like it in the Xtreems games. 
It not the dogs fault stupid!

BetsieCorwin

  • *****
  • Posts: 41
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2013, 12:58:26 PM »
Holy Smoke!  This topic has gotten a lot of action.  :)  It never occurred to me that another locale might split the runs up differently like in Australia.  I lost count of the times over the years I muttered as we walked off the course.  "Boy, I sure would like another chance to try Chances today."  But then again, I would want 2 Chance EACH day, not just one.  Chances was always the hardest class for my Sophie who is now retired. She was often close and a second opportunity would have been fun. 

I always love the Games only trial that happens once a year in our area. Just like Al's dogs, my Sophie and Snickers always had a blast in Tunnelers, but Sophie HATED Weavers.  Just wasn't her thing.  What would have been my preference for Sophie and Snickers is far different from my young Novice (almost Open) dog Dazzle.  Dazzle loves to weave. I'm sure if she had her way, she would like to run Weavers 4 times a day. We all know that won't happen.   Until Sharon showed the math, I never thought much about how many trials it would take to get a NATCH.  Assuming of course, you Q'd every run, which even the best teams don't. 

Tunnelers is most often run on Sundays out here which works nicely for me because I sometimes have other committments on Saturdays.  We've entered the trial next month in Central Pt., OR. I was hoping Dazzle would finish her Novice Superior in a couple of classes so we could move up to Open at the OR trial.  I checked over the premiums carefully this month knowing my pocketbook only allowed so many agility days.  I was happy that the classes we needed a few more points in happened to be on Sunday. Yahoo!  But that doesn't mean we'll Q.  We'll have fun no matter what, and probably end up E-ing at least 1 run if Dazzle needs training with her start line stay. 

Thanks to Lin, Jeff and other for their comments on "profit" or lack thereof.  I know that clubs work very hard and depend on volunteers to pitch in to make it all happen.  No one is getting rich putting agility trials.  I will say that I was educated early on to volunteer at trials.  I think you might look around my house and see it is decorated in NADAC Raffle style.  Just had my coffee this morning in a cute mug I won at a trial last weekend. 

Betsie Corwin
Betsie Corwin
Oakdale, CA

Sharon Nelson

  • Mother NADAC
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6054
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2013, 02:43:13 PM »
Hi Sharon,

Can you please call me when you get a chance 802-591-0418.

Mike

Sorry, but no.  I don't use phones and I wouldn't even know where mine is.  Probably in my car needing charging because it is dead.  I communicate via email, forum and lists.  You could ask Becky, she is the one that uses a phone.  I don't

Sharon
Sharon
In-Sync-Agility

Anne Etherton

  • 2016 Online Seminar Group
  • *****
  • Posts: 119
Re: Nadac USA vs. Nadac Australia
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2013, 03:34:55 PM »
I tend to agree with Maureen.  Our "club" is much like hers.  Just a group of NADAC oriented people who wanted more trials in the area.  We try to keep entry fees as low as possible while covering expenses.  We usually follow the format of 2 regular 1 jumpers, 1 chances each day and one non-jumping class each day.  In April we will try two non-jumping classes each day. 

Anne
Anne