Dogs 8 or older question

[Sharon Nelson]

I would appreciate some clarification on this as well.  I have a 7 yr. old dog who measures 20" and is currently jumping 16" in Proficient since I am a veteran handler.   I would prefer to continue to jump her at 16" since she is very athletic and is comfortable at that height.  My question is whether or not I will have to drop her to 12" when she turns 8 next year.  I believe I will be allowed to continue at 16" as long as she is in Proficient, but would like confirmation.
Linda

You have to enter Veterans when she reaches her 9th birthday.  You can switch from Proficient VH to Proficient Veteran dog and not receive the extra time in the non-jumping classes.  If your dog needs time in all classes, then you need to enter Skilled Veterans/VH/JH.

Sharon

[Rebecca Kriz]

I think their issue is if you were running Skilled the whole time, possibly for a time break in the games classes in addition to the height break, by changing to Proficient Vet to have just a 4" jump height break, you don't get more time in the games.  They might not feel their dog needs or wants an 8" break at that age.  I don't know what the solution to that would be or if anyone would have that problem, but that's what I'm seeing.

That is exactly my thought.

Yes, I think that is what they are trying to say.  That they want the time break in all classes, but only a 4" height break.  I understand that request........ except I have to take the hard line side and say that if the dog needs extra time for classes with no jumps and they are only running "on the flat" and can't make time, that maybe it is in the dog's best interest to "have" to enter Skilled Veterans and take the 8" jump height break.  A dog that can't make time on the flat might need to take a maximum jump height break for the sake of their body.

Sharon

And that exact thought crossed my mind as I was typing my post, but I wasn't sure I should be the one to say it!

[fbrazeil]

I didn't get a reply to my post, so let me rephrase it. Are you saying that I can't enter a trial as both a Veteran Handler and a Veteran dog? If not, why not? Even if my dog is now nine years old, I am still a veteran handler. What is the justification for taking away my VH status just because my dog is a Veteran. In the non-jumping classes, are you assuming that both my dog and myself can both run faster now that we are older? (If so, that's a very bad assumption.) I'm thinking your only reason for doing this is that your software can't handle a Vet dog with a Vet Handler. So, change the software.

[Cindy]

[/quote]

Yes, I think that is what they are trying to say.  That they want the time break in all classes, but only a 4" height break.  I understand that request........ except I have to take the hard line side and say that if the dog needs extra time for classes with no jumps and they are only running "on the flat" and can't make time, that maybe it is in the dog's best interest to "have" to enter Skilled Veterans and take the 8" jump height break.  A dog that can't make time on the flat might need to take a maximum jump height break for the sake of their body.

Sharon
[/quote]

You very nicely put into words what I was trying to formulate.  At the last trial I was talking with another handler about how painful it can be to watch Novice Jumpers, with so many dogs who are not comfortable at their Proficient height - especially the ones jumping 20".  She commented that when she moved her Elite dog to Skilled Veteran's and took the accompanying jump height break, her dog started making time in Elite Tunnelers once again.  (Not to mention her dog enjoyed Jumpers a lot more.)  Some dogs are working so hard to get over the jumps that they burn up energy they could be using for added speed other places.

I've also seen a very fast dog/handler team get much smoother and more consistent when she dropped to Skilled as the dog didn't have to spend so much mental energy on jumping and could direct that towards following the path.  This dog didn't appear to be having any trouble with the jumps, but it was very obvious when the jumps were lowered the toll it was taking on her mentally and physically.

In both of these cases the agility benefits are secondary to the physical benefits for the dog over the long haul, but it is nice that there was an immediate payoff as well. 

Personally I'm among those that see no need to jump my dog any higher than the rules allow.  While I cannot control all of the abuse they give their bodies, I want to know at the end that I did everything in my power to minimize the impact of the activities I chose for them to do and that includes lowering the jumps while they were still comfortable at their current height, and not waiting until the strain was showing.  Thank you Sharon for emphasizing that over the years and for building a system that allows and encourages us to do just that.

[Sharon Nelson]

I didn't get a reply to my post, so let me rephrase it. Are you saying that I can't enter a trial as both a Veteran Handler and a Veteran dog? If not, why not? Even if my dog is now nine years old, I am still a veteran handler. What is the justification for taking away my VH status just because my dog is a Veteran. In the non-jumping classes, are you assuming that both my dog and myself can both run faster now that we are older? (If so, that's a very bad assumption.) I'm thinking your only reason for doing this is that your software can't handle a Vet dog with a Vet Handler. So, change the software.

Fred, the Veteran division is for "Veterans" whether it is for Veteran dog or Veteran Handler.  You do not get two "breaks" just because both happen to be Veterans.  A handler doesn't "have" to ever declare their Veteran status and many don't.  The 9+ Veteran dogs will have to. 

It isn't a software problem.  NADAC does not have a "double Veteran" division.

Sharon

[fbrazeil]

Fred, the Veteran division is for "Veterans" whether it is for Veteran dog or Veteran Handler.  You do not get two "breaks" just because both happen to be Veterans.  A handler doesn't "have" to ever declare their Veteran status and many don't.  The 9+ Veteran dogs will have to. 

It isn't a software problem.  NADAC does not have a "double Veteran" division.

Sharon

What is the purpose of declaring a nine year old as a Veteran? If it is for the dog to jump 4" lower, that already happens with Veteran Handler. What other purpose is there?

I am not asking for two breaks. You are forcing my dog to be entered as a Veteran, it's not something I'm asking for. I guess what I want is for my dog to be a Veteran in the jumping classes, and have a Veteran Handler in the non-jumping classes.

And yes it is a software problem. Your software does not recognize a Veteran Handler running a Veteran dog. That's essentially what you are saying.

[Lorrie Stelz]

Ok, so let me make sure I understand... the requirements for when they have to be moved is on their 9th birthday (down to Vet at the least) and 12 (down to Skilled Vet).  I was thinking it was as of Jan. 1 when they turn 11 and after 7 for the other age drop down.  So, the years are actually 9 and 12?

Thanks! 

Lorrie Stelz

[Sharon Nelson]

Fred, the Veteran division is for "Veterans" whether it is for Veteran dog or Veteran Handler.  You do not get two "breaks" just because both happen to be Veterans.  A handler doesn't "have" to ever declare their Veteran status and many don't.  The 9+ Veteran dogs will have to. 

It isn't a software problem.  NADAC does not have a "double Veteran" division.

Sharon

What is the purpose of declaring a nine year old as a Veteran? If it is for the dog to jump 4" lower, that already happens with Veteran Handler. What other purpose is there?

I am not asking for two breaks. You are forcing my dog to be entered as a Veteran, it's not something I'm asking for. I guess what I want is for my dog to be a Veteran in the jumping classes, and have a Veteran Handler in the non-jumping classes.

And yes it is a software problem. Your software does not recognize a Veteran Handler running a Veteran dog. That's essentially what you are saying.

Fred, we use four different software vendors that clubs may use for NADAC clubs.  Two of them support NADAC completely, Agility Unscrambled and FAST.  Two others do have a working version, Trial Genie and AGT.  The first two might make the required changes if NADAC asked them to.  The second two would most likely not make any major software changes, as they mainly support AKC/USDAA.

It is not a software problem, as we have never asked any of the vendors to allow for Veteran Dog/Veteran Handler combinations.  At this time, I do not see a reason for a major software change to allow for a team to be in "either" Veteran Dog or Veteran Handler status.  The same time and jump options are already available via the Skilled/Proficient and Veteran/Standard division choices.

By switching a dog when they are nine to Skilled Veteran dog the team has two jump height breaks and two time breaks in jumping classes and one height break and one time break in the non-jumping classes.  By allowing the either/or the only increase would be two time breaks with one height break in the non-jumping classes.  A team also has the option of moving from Elite to Open or Open to Novice for an even greater break in time and course difficulty.  I guess I would be back to wondering if an Elite team needs more time and height breaks than the options already given to them, then one has to wonder how much fun the dog is having while running agility.

We have so many options available to dog/handler teams that there should be a comfortable place for all teams to run and qualify.  If the handler's goals are for a NATCH and they cannot succeed with the current options, I am sorry but those are the options available.

Sharon

[MoabDiane]

I'm thinking this series of message might need to be a "sticky topic"....so I can find it in a few years when my dog becomes a "real" vet!

 

diane

[Sheila & the Shelties]

YES, it should be a sticky topic!  I get it all straight in my head, the someone asks a question about it, and others throw in all kinds of scenarios, and then my head starts spinning!  Last year my dog was jumping the wrong height as the trial secretary entered it wrong.  With my computer down I did not have a chance to check the confirmation....Make it a sticky topic!

[Sharon Nelson]

Fred, the Veteran division is for "Veterans" whether it is for Veteran dog or Veteran Handler.  You do not get two "breaks" just because both happen to be Veterans.  A handler doesn't "have" to ever declare their Veteran status and many don't.  The 9+ Veteran dogs will have to. 

It isn't a software problem.  NADAC does not have a "double Veteran" division.

Sharon

What is the purpose of declaring a nine year old as a Veteran? If it is for the dog to jump 4" lower, that already happens with Veteran Handler. What other purpose is there?

I am not asking for two breaks. You are forcing my dog to be entered as a Veteran, it's not something I'm asking for. I guess what I want is for my dog to be a Veteran in the jumping classes, and have a Veteran Handler in the non-jumping classes.

And yes it is a software problem. Your software does not recognize a Veteran Handler running a Veteran dog. That's essentially what you are saying.

Fred, we use four different software vendors that clubs may use for NADAC clubs.  Two of them support NADAC completely, Agility Unscrambled and FAST.  Two others do have a working version, Trial Genie and AGT.  The first two might make the required changes if NADAC asked them to.  The second two would most likely not make any major software changes, as they mainly support AKC/USDAA.

It is not a software problem, as we have never asked any of the vendors to allow for Veteran Dog/Veteran Handler combinations.  At this time, I do not see a reason for a major software change to allow for a team to be in "either" Veteran Dog or Veteran Handler status.  The same time and jump options are already available via the Skilled/Proficient and Veteran/Standard division choices.

By switching a dog when they are nine to Skilled Veteran dog the team has two jump height breaks and two time breaks in jumping classes and one height break and one time break in the non-jumping classes.  By allowing the either/or the only increase would be two time breaks with one height break in the non-jumping classes.  A team also has the option of moving from Elite to Open or Open to Novice for an even greater break in time and course difficulty.  I guess I would be back to wondering if an Elite team needs more time and height breaks than the options already given to them, then one has to wonder how much fun the dog is having while running agility.

We have so many options available to dog/handler teams that there should be a comfortable place for all teams to run and qualify.  If the handler's goals are for a NATCH and they cannot succeed with the current options, I am sorry but those are the options available.

Sharon

Also, Fred, when you enter a dog in VH, then the software treats the "team" as a Veteran team.  In NADAC, a "Veteran" is a Veteran, regardless if it is the dog or the handler.   As long as the dog is listed as entered in the "Veteran" division, I cannot understand any reason to change any software so that they can be entered in some classes as a "Veteran dog" and sometimes as a "Veteran Handler"......... a Veteran is a Veteran.  As a Veteran handler you get a break in all classes, but the dog is still being entered in the "Veteran division"......... we don't need a software change for that.

Sharon

[Tom Fix]

...
By switching a dog when they are nine to Skilled Veteran dog the team has two jump height breaks and two time breaks in jumping classes and one height break and one time break in the non-jumping classes.  By allowing the either/or the only increase would be two time breaks with one height break in the non-jumping classes.  A team also has the option of moving from Elite to Open or Open to Novice for an even greater break in time and course difficulty.  I guess I would be back to wondering if an Elite team needs more time and height breaks than the options already given to them, then one has to wonder how much fun the dog is having while running agility.

We have so many options available to dog/handler teams that there should be a comfortable place for all teams to run and qualify.  If the handler's goals are for a NATCH and they cannot succeed with the current options, I am sorry but those are the options available.

Sharon

It has been my understanding that “veteran dog” status was an accommodation for the age of the dog and that the “veteran handler” status was an accommodation for the age of the handler.

Also, I’ve had the impression that, for the well-being of the dog, NADAC has been encouraging handlers to run their dogs at the lowest jump height available to them.  Many, if not most, have switched to Skilled from Proficient.  There are many veteran handlers who enter their dogs in the Skilled division and receive two time allowances (and two height allowances) in all classes.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but you seem to be saying that when the dog reaches 9, the handler loses the veteran handler accommodation in the non-jumping classes, an accommodation they can use until the dog is 9.

“I guess I would be back to wondering if an Elite team needs more time and height breaks than the options already given to them ...”

If I haven’t misunderstood, the veteran handler situation is not a matter of needing “more time and height breaks than the options given...”, it is a matter of losing an option that they currently have.

I guess my question is, "When my dog turns 9 and has to be entered as a Skilled/veteran, do I lose my veteran handler status in the non-jumping class?"

Thanks,
Tom

[Sharon Nelson]

Fred, the Veteran division is for "Veterans" whether it is for Veteran dog or Veteran Handler.  You do not get two "breaks" just because both happen to be Veterans.  A handler doesn't "have" to ever declare their Veteran status and many don't.  The 9+ Veteran dogs will have to. 

It isn't a software problem.  NADAC does not have a "double Veteran" division.

Sharon

What is the purpose of declaring a nine year old as a Veteran? If it is for the dog to jump 4" lower, that already happens with Veteran Handler. What other purpose is there?

I am not asking for two breaks. You are forcing my dog to be entered as a Veteran, it's not something I'm asking for. I guess what I want is for my dog to be a Veteran in the jumping classes, and have a Veteran Handler in the non-jumping classes.

And yes it is a software problem. Your software does not recognize a Veteran Handler running a Veteran dog. That's essentially what you are saying.

Fred, I don't totally understand your question and why you think there is a problem and why there needs to be any "changes".

If you enter as a Veteran Handler, then your dog is entered in the Veterans division.  Why do you think that there needs to be an option to split the entry into some runs as VH and some runs as "Veteran Dog"??  I am missing something.

Sharon

[Rebecca Kriz]

Also, Fred, when you enter a dog in VH, then the software treats the "team" as a Veteran team.  In NADAC, a "Veteran" is a Veteran, regardless if it is the dog or the handler.   As long as the dog is listed as entered in the "Veteran" division, I cannot understand any reason to change any software so that they can be entered in some classes as a "Veteran dog" and sometimes as a "Veteran Handler"......... a Veteran is a Veteran.  As a Veteran handler you get a break in all classes, but the dog is still being entered in the "Veteran division"......... we don't need a software change for that.

Sharon

Ok, so it doesn't matter who the Veteran is as long as a nine year old dog is entered as a Veteran?

[Sharon Nelson]

It has been my understanding that “veteran dog” status was an accommodation for the age of the dog and that the “veteran handler” status was an accommodation for the age of the handler.

Also, I’ve had the impression that, for the well-being of the dog, NADAC has been encouraging handlers to run their dogs at the lowest jump height available to them.  Many, if not most, have switched to Skilled from Proficient.  There are many veteran handlers who enter their dogs in the Skilled division and receive two time allowances (and two height allowances) in all classes.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but you seem to be saying that when the dog reaches 9, the handler loses the veteran handler accommodation in the non-jumping classes, an accommodation they can use until the dog is 9.

“I guess I would be back to wondering if an Elite team needs more time and height breaks than the options already given to them ...”

If I haven’t misunderstood, the veteran handler situation is not a matter of needing “more time and height breaks than the options given...”, it is a matter of losing an option that they currently have.

I guess my question is, "When my dog turns 9 and has to be entered as a Skilled/veteran, do I lose my veteran handler status in the non-jumping class?"

Thanks,
Tom

Why does a handler lose their Veteran Handler status??

There is a "division" in NADAC that is called Veterans......  If handlers want to enter their dogs in that division, then they are "in" that division.   

If a handler enters into the Veteran division they can get different breaks from the Standard division.  A Veteran dog gets a height break and jump height break in the jumping classes.  A Veteran Handler gets a break in all classes, since they are older and need more time to physically and mentally get around a course (? not always!!  but it is their choice!)

When a dog reaches their 9th birthday, they must be entered in the Veterans division.  NADAC doesn't care if it is Veteran dog or Veteran Handler division, but they MUST be in the Veterans division and they MUST take a jump height break.  On their 12th birthday they MUST enter Skilled Veteran. 

Why are people jumping up and telling me they are losing their veteran status??  They are entering the Veterans division.  We don't have to rewrite any software and we don't have to have our older generation offended that they are losing their rights as an older handler...

Why do you think you are losing your VH options? 

I am truly missing something here.

Sharon