Dogs 8 or older question

[Sharon Nelson]

Also, Fred, when you enter a dog in VH, then the software treats the "team" as a Veteran team.  In NADAC, a "Veteran" is a Veteran, regardless if it is the dog or the handler.   As long as the dog is listed as entered in the "Veteran" division, I cannot understand any reason to change any software so that they can be entered in some classes as a "Veteran dog" and sometimes as a "Veteran Handler"......... a Veteran is a Veteran.  As a Veteran handler you get a break in all classes, but the dog is still being entered in the "Veteran division"......... we don't need a software change for that.

Sharon

Ok, so it doesn't matter who the Veteran is as long as a nine year old dog is entered as a Veteran?

As long as the results come in with a "Veteran" designation, they are entered in Veterans.  If they aren't entered in Veterans on their 9th birthday the points won't count.  On their 12th birthday the results must show the indicators for both Skilled and Veterans or the points won't count.

Sharon

[fbrazeil]

In Tunnelers, TouchNGo, and Weavers, does a 16" Proficient Veteran Dog get the same SCT as a 16" Proficient Dog with a Veteran Handler? My impression is that the VH gets 10% more SCT than the Veteran Dog, but I could be wrong.

[Sharon Nelson]

In Tunnelers, TouchNGo, and Weavers, does a 16" Proficient Veteran Dog get the same SCT as a 16" Proficient Dog with a Veteran Handler? My impression is that the VH gets 10% more SCT than the Veteran Dog, but I could be wrong.

The 16" Proficient VH team would get more time (10%)..... so it you want more time you would enter as a Veteran Handler team.

Sharon

[fbrazeil]

In Tunnelers, TouchNGo, and Weavers, does a 16" Proficient Veteran Dog get the same SCT as a 16" Proficient Dog with a Veteran Handler? My impression is that the VH gets 10% more SCT than the Veteran Dog, but I could be wrong.

The 16" Proficient VH team would get more time (10%)..... so it you want more time you would enter as a Veteran Handler team.

Sharon

Now, here's the $64,000 question, and I bet I am probably confused. Can I enter my nine year old dog (actually, today really is his ninth birthday) as Proficient, Veteran Handler? (BTW, I have always entered as VH since I started NADAC) On my dog's previous results, he is listed as Vet for the jumping classes, and VH for the non-jumping classes. If all that stays the same, then this was much ado about nothing, all due to my misunderstanding. Actually, I am entering SCOR's trial this weekend, and I want to make sure I get this right. Thank you for your patience, Sharon.
After all, I am getting older. ( Hence the VH.)

[Carole & Pat Daggett]

I'm wondering if some of the confusion is in my specific answer to Mary where I said that when her dog turns 9 she must enter her as a Vet (knowing that Mary is way too young for VH status).  To make it applicable for all, I could have said she must enter the Veteran Division.  Although I use those words later in the explanation, putting it in the first sentence may have been clearer for someone trying to determine how it affects his or her specific case.

Carole

Hi Mary,

As Sharon said, when your dog become 9 you must enter her as a Vet, and if your goal was to jump her 4" lower, you would enter her as a Proficient Vet.  Your dog's current jump height would not change (since she is in Skilled now), but you would have to take her out of Skilled unless you wanted to jump her 8" lower, as you would have to if she were age 12.  The requirement is for her to enter the Veteran Division at 9, so taking a 4" height break by putting her in Skilled does not meet that requirement.  I think that may be where the confusion lies - the rule is not that you have to take a 4" reduction in height when she becomes 9, but that she must be entered as a Vet.  Your choice is then whether to put her in Proficient or Skilled.  Remember that your Skilled and Proficient points are combined, so you would not "lose" any points by moving her to Proficient Vet, if that is the choice that you ultimately make.  Hope that explanation helps.

Carole Daggett

[Sharon Nelson]

Now, here's the $64,000 question, and I bet I am probably confused. Can I enter my nine year old dog (actually, today really is his ninth birthday) as Proficient, Veteran Handler? (BTW, I have always entered as VH since I started NADAC) On my dog's previous results, he is listed as Vet for the jumping classes, and VH for the non-jumping classes. If all that stays the same, then this was much ado about nothing, all due to my misunderstanding. Actually, I am entering SCOR's trial this weekend, and I want to make sure I get this right. Thank you for your patience, Sharon.
After all, I am getting older. ( Hence the VH.)

YES!  As long as he is in a "Veteran" division, go run, have fun and have a great weekend!

Sharon

[danforth]

So if we are running now entered as Veteran handler and Proficient, we can just keep that selection on our premiums when he reaches his 9th birthday.

Nothing needs to change, correct?   He will still jump at the same height as he has been doing.

Isabel

[Linda W. Anderson]

Thank you, Sharon, for your patience in clarifying this issue.  I, too, was confused about how this applied to me as a VH with my younger dogs.  Bottom line, if I understand correctly, is it will make no difference since all my dogs, no matter what their age, are already entered in the "Veteran Division".
Linda

[Tom Fix]

It has been my understanding that “veteran dog” status was an accommodation for the age of the dog and that the “veteran handler” status was an accommodation for the age of the handler.

Also, I’ve had the impression that, for the well-being of the dog, NADAC has been encouraging handlers to run their dogs at the lowest jump height available to them.  Many, if not most, have switched to Skilled from Proficient.  There are many veteran handlers who enter their dogs in the Skilled division and receive two time allowances (and two height allowances) in all classes.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but you seem to be saying that when the dog reaches 9, the handler loses the veteran handler accommodation in the non-jumping classes, an accommodation they can use until the dog is 9.

“I guess I would be back to wondering if an Elite team needs more time and height breaks than the options already given to them ...”

If I haven’t misunderstood, the veteran handler situation is not a matter of needing “more time and height breaks than the options given...”, it is a matter of losing an option that they currently have.

I guess my question is, "When my dog turns 9 and has to be entered as a Skilled/veteran, do I lose my veteran handler status in the non-jumping class?"

Thanks,
Tom

Why does a handler lose their Veteran Handler status??

There is a "division" in NADAC that is called Veterans......  If handlers want to enter their dogs in that division, then they are "in" that division.   

If a handler enters into the Veteran division they can get different breaks from the Standard division.  A Veteran dog gets a height break and jump height break in the jumping classes.  A Veteran Handler gets a break in all classes, since they are older and need more time to physically and mentally get around a course (? not always!!  but it is their choice!)

When a dog reaches their 9th birthday, they must be entered in the Veterans division.  NADAC doesn't care if it is Veteran dog or Veteran Handler division, but they MUST be in the Veterans division and they MUST take a jump height break.  On their 12th birthday they MUST enter Skilled Veteran. 

Why are people jumping up and telling me they are losing their veteran status??  They are entering the Veterans division.  We don't have to rewrite any software and we don't have to have our older generation offended that they are losing their rights as an older handler...

Why do you think you are losing your VH options? 

I am truly missing something here.

Sharon

My post was started before your response to Rebecca Kriz: "If you enter as a Veteran Handler, then your dog is entered in the Veterans division.  Why do you think that there needs to be an option to split the entry into some runs as VH and some runs as "Veteran Dog"??  I am missing something."

Had I seen it before I started my question, I would not have had a question.  I think the quote also explains, at least partially, our (my) confusion.  You see only one Veterans division, "…the dog is entered in the Veteran's division.

Since the rule book's section on divisions list 5 separate divisions, including three veteran divisions - two for veteran dogs (actually, I would considered that one division with two parts) and one for veteran handler/disabled - I have considered them as separate divisions.  Thus, "the dog must be entered in the veteran's division has a different meaning than the dog must be entered in a veteran''s division.

In any event, my question has been answered.

Thanks,
Tom

[Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso]

I think their issue is if you were running Skilled the whole time, possibly for a time break in the games classes in addition to the height break, by changing to Proficient Vet to have just a 4" jump height break, you don't get more time in the games.  They might not feel their dog needs or wants an 8" break at that age.  I don't know what the solution to that would be or if anyone would have that problem, but that's what I'm seeing.

That is exactly my thought.

Yes, I think that is what they are trying to say.  That they want the time break in all classes, but only a 4" height break.  I understand that request........ except I have to take the hard line side and say that if the dog needs extra time for classes with no jumps and they are only running "on the flat" and can't make time, that maybe it is in the dog's best interest to "have" to enter Skilled Veterans and take the 8" jump height break.  A dog that can't make time on the flat might need to take a maximum jump height break for the sake of their body.

Sharon

I will take it as it is, but in my case and I am sure in others, it isn't the jump heights that gets her (she jumps my 6' fence in a single bound faster than I can get her name out), it is the fact that she is an "obstacle" dog.  She makes time quite easily in regular, jumpers, and TNG. She really just doesn't see the "need" to RUN 13 tunnels in a row (WOW!  Mom this is BORING!) but will make proficient time if she "feels" like it that day.  Her main issue is in weavers with the fact that she gets going then slows down for the weaves, then has to get going again, then slow down again.... and it is again, those darn tunnels and hoops...   She isn't at the point where I have to make the decision yet, so I was just curious of the reasoning.

[cairnsby2]

Ok, I think I understand it, so my question is personal.  My Cairn terrier (8" breed exemption) is currently running as proficient vet and I am a veteran handler.  She jumps 4".  In January she will turn 12.  So I would still be a veteran handler, but I would enter her in skilled vet.  Still jumping 4" since she can't take an 8" drop?

Linda

[mephalon]

The reason I asked this question and specifically  if proficient vet gets the same time as skilled isn't because my dog can't make time and I wish people would not judge intent based on a simple question. 

I have a unique situation in that I run a breed exempt dog and as skilled we already jump 8"lower than her measured proficient height.  When she turns 9 next year I have to decide if I want to continue to use the breed exemption or wait until she is older and just run her as a skilled vet.  If I continue to use it she would jump 12" Lower than her measured proficient height.  If I no longer take the exemption she would still jump her current 8" lower (as a skilled vet) but I believe would get the times for a skilled 16" dog in the non-jumping classes whereas now she gets the times of a 12" skilled.  Time is not an issue with us but I was looking for clarification/information so I can decide how I want to enter and I can look at her current times vs what time should we have to make if we don't take the election.

So can someone please confirm this- does a 12" skilled vet get 16" skilled time in non-jumping classes?

[Kristine Doll]

I've been following this discussion but being confused am going to ask directly: 

My dog is 11 years old, his permanent height card measures 12" Proficient.  Since he turned 7 he's been happily jumping 8" Proficient Vet Dog and grouped with 12" Proficient dogs for Non-Jumping classes.

On his 12th birthday - possibly before - he will move to 4" Skilled Vet Dog and told he would get a further time break for Regular and Jumpers. 

However, was also told that he will not get any time break in Non-Jumping classes (ie even though he will then be grouped with the 8" Skilled Dogs they get the same SCT as the 12" Proficient dogs).  So therefore the only way he could get more time in Non-Jumping classes is if I were to become a Veteran Handler (which I won't be until several years after he retires)?  Thank you for any clarification!
Kristine & Thane

[Sharon Nelson]

I've been following this discussion but being confused am going to ask directly: 

My dog is 11 years old, his permanent height card measures 12" Proficient.  Since he turned 7 he's been happily jumping 8" Proficient Vet Dog and grouped with 12" Proficient dogs for Non-Jumping classes.

On his 12th birthday - possibly before - he will move to 4" Skilled Vet Dog and told he would get a further time break for Regular and Jumpers. 

However, was also told that he will not get any time break in Non-Jumping classes (ie even though he will then be grouped with the 8" Skilled Dogs they get the same SCT as the 12" Proficient dogs).  So therefore the only way he could get more time in Non-Jumping classes is if I were to become a Veteran Handler (which I won't be until several years after he retires)?  Thank you for any clarification!
Kristine & Thane

You have a great plan.  You have received some incorrect info on the time for "SS" dogs (small Skilled dogs) as they do get 5% more time if they are 4/8" Skilled dogs than the 12" Skilled dogs.

Sharon

[agil8ek9]

I will take it as it is, but in my case and I am sure in others, it isn't the jump heights that gets her

Audri, I'm in the same situation.  I have one who turned 9 last April.  She's sound (been evaluated, gets adjusted regularly), she's an effortless jumper, but she's a chronic "trotter" through large expanses of flat space, including hoops and tunnels.  Started as a stress thing,  but at this point it's just how she rolls.  (BTW she doesn't trot up to jumps and pop - she canters on approach, and can jump well extended or collected.)  I always ran her skilled for the time - but choosing between regular and games on a given weekend makes for a long, slow day (we don't do tunnelers or hoopers) so we've been playing in other venues.   But it is what it is ... I understand the intent ...

Not to "troll" Mary's question, which I didn't see answered, which was:

So can someone please confirm this- does a 12" skilled vet get 16" skilled time in non-jumping classes?