Author Topic: Question for exhibitors  (Read 2586 times)

Becky Woodruff

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Question for exhibitors
« on: January 26, 2014, 12:45:33 PM »
Hi Group,

The NADAC Office would like to hear from exhibitors, clubs, judges regarding FEO (For exhibition only) entries at trials.

Why would someone enter FEO?

What is the purpose of FEO?

Thanks,
Becky
Becky Woodruff

Richard Wolfe

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2014, 01:23:58 PM »
Hi, Becky. and "NADAC Office"
From my vantage, I don't see the point.  It is quite expensive for a club to host a trial for fairly obvious reasons: location rental, ribbons and prizes (for those who offer prizes), pay for judges and travel, lodging and food expenses for judges, etc.  So...it wouldn't make sense to offer a lowered fee per run (except that it might attract some new exhibitors who might try NADAC).  I also think, for safety reasons, that NADAC is not likely to lower the age restrictions for dogs.
So, maybe my view is narrow, but if I were to run a new dog in a trial setting, why would I want to comply with all the conditions that others do and restrict myself from the possibility that my dog could earn title points if it performed a good run.
However, since most if not all the dogs who might run FEO would be in Novice and would run in the mix and not separately, it would not make a separate group run necessary and therefore not make the day any longer, I would not object in any way if a club were to offer it.

Thanks for asking.
Richard Wolfe
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bill fehn

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2014, 01:45:08 PM »
I agree with Richard, "What is the Point?" but I came at it from a different perspective. What is the point of anything other than FEO? Every run we do is an FEO run whether it is labeled that or not.

Bill Fehn
MN

Jeannie Biggers

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2014, 01:59:50 PM »
FEO is offered in Bozeman but exhibitor pays standard pricing.  The only reason I have seen them enter FEO is if they want another 4" off the dogs jump height.  Very few times does anyone enter FEO.

Jeannie
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TheQuestKnight

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2014, 02:17:54 PM »
Hi Becky.................and "NADAC Office"...........

Both Barb and I have first-hand experience with a venue that permitted FEO runs................6 years as exhibitors and 4 years as judges......................

That particular venue was rather "liberal" in the manner in which it defined FEO....................handlers were even permitted to run their dogs "on lead"......................

From our experience, the LIABILITIES of FEO FAR OUTWEIGH any potential benefits...............

We saw far toooooooooooooooooooooooooo many dogs running FEO with jump bars laying on the ground because the dogs could no longer jump........................and simply had difficulty moving......................

We saw toooooooooooooooooooooooo many dogs that had NO self-control or discipline...................and had it not been for being "on lead", the dogs would have posed a hazard to other dogs and people...................

Again, based on our experiences, so very many of the FEO dogs simply should NOT have been in the ring, in, on or through any agility equipment in the full view of an observant; but often uniformed public audience, since much of which was tolerated by that venue was unsafe and simply an accident waiting to happen........................and there were more of those than we care to remember......................

While FEO holds appeal for those that would avail themselves and their dogs of the privilege WISELY, our experience was that people simply didn't use good judgement with their dogs.......................ESPECIALLY their older dogs!!!!!!!!!!!  To be sure, those dogs had the MENTAL desire to do agility; but their bodies could no longer match their mind's desire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In our humble opinion, NADAC offers PLENTY of options for any mentally and physically "sound" dog to compete under current rules and regulations.  NADAC judges and trial committee members simply do NOT need to be put in the unenviable position of passing judgement as to the appropriateness of an FEO dog running.................especially as it relates to it's temperament, physical ability, lameness, etc...............................

If folks want the ability to do FEO, let them ask their club......................or get a group of folks together.............and hold run-thrus where folks can what they choose to do with their dogs..........................

We simply do NOT believe that FEO has a place in a NADAC sanctioned agility trial.

Al & Barb Ceranko................and Castle Camelot   
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Richard Wolfe

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2014, 02:18:33 PM »
FEO is offered in Bozeman but exhibitor pays standard pricing.  The only reason I have seen them enter FEO is if they want another 4" off the dogs jump height.  Very few times does anyone enter FEO.

Jeannie
OOPS!!  Thanks, Jeannie.  I forgot about the 4" reduction in height.  So I suppose if someone had a dog recovering from injury or wanting to get back into shape after some other layoff, it could be useful in that way.
Richard Wolfe
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2014, 03:16:26 PM »
FEO is offered in Bozeman but exhibitor pays standard pricing.  The only reason I have seen them enter FEO is if they want another 4" off the dogs jump height.  Very few times does anyone enter FEO.

Jeannie
OOPS!!  Thanks, Jeannie.  I forgot about the 4" reduction in height.  So I suppose if someone had a dog recovering from injury or wanting to get back into shape after some other layoff, it could be useful in that way.

I agree.......... to a point........ I sometimes that with the large variety of "non-jumping" classes that NADAC offers......... four different EGC classes, Hoopers, Tunnelers, Weavers and Touch N Go..... couldn't a dog needing "rehab" use those classes instead of the jumping classes.

In essence, there is no such thing as "FEO" in the non-jumping classes.   There is nothing in FEO that would change the non-jumping classes in any way.  So "FEO" is really only allowed in the three jumping classes.  The only benefit of FEO is to allow for a lower jump height than Skilled would allow for.  It makes me wonder that if the dog can't jump their Skilled height, then maybe they shouldn't be jumping at all???

I know that FEO was added when we still had a jump height of 24" with no Skilled division.  Once the maximum height went to 20" and then when Skilled was added, it really makes me wonder if FEO is a valid option anymore.  The same goes for breed exemptions.  Other than the long backed dogs such as corgis, bassets, and dachshunds, why should there be any breed exemptions?  Lowering the height to 20" and adding Skilled category took away every reason that ever existed for breed exemptions and for FEO.  Both breed exemptions and FEO had very valid reasons when a dog HAD to jump 24" if they were under 7 years of age.  But they have received an 8" drop in height by the height lowering to 20" and then adding Skilled.  The breed exemptions allow them to drop 12" in height for the larger breeds.  I wonder if it is time to acknowledge the lowering of the height to 20" and the adding of the Skilled category and remove the breed exemptions for the non-long backed dogs and remove any option for FEO.

JMHO.

Sharon
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Jackie Brasen

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Question for exhibitors
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2014, 03:32:23 PM »
We had one exhibitor that was having a terrible time with ring nerves. No matter how hard they tried they couldn't get the q monkey off their back. If they knew a q was on the line they would run cautious, fix things etc. they decided to do enter FEO. Same prices, same classes everything Only me the scribe and the exhibitor knew it wasn't a 'real' run. The exhibitor was able to run and let loose ignoring mistakes and having a blast with their dog without their prior inhibitions. Yes it was all mental but it worked. After a few weekends running FEO they started entering for real a little at a time. The q monster was banished for good.


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Shirlene Clark

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2014, 03:35:19 PM »
[  I wonder if it is time to acknowledge the lowering of the height to 20" and the adding of the Skilled category and remove the breed exemptions for the non-long backed dogs and remove any option for FEO.

JMHO.
Sharon

Since the emphasis in the NADAC program is on teamwork rather than jump height and things have evolved (in a great way) to support that emphasis eg Skilled and new Vet requirements that yes perhaps it is time to seriously evaluate the need for FEO and "some" breed exemptions.

I don't think we have ever had a dog in Australia participate in a trial under FEO and most people bringing a dog back from injury seem to opt for a couple of runs in a non jumping class.

I wonder how many dogs currently utilise the breed height exemption in general ?  Here is Australia we have Cavalier KC Spaniels, Am Staff, Cairns, Pugs and Staffies who have utilised the breed height exemptions.

Shirlene Clark
Australia

Jeannie Biggers

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2014, 03:48:17 PM »
Yeah I agree Sharon.  I am sure it was very valid at one point.  Like I said it is used very rarely.... like in the past 6 years I have had 1 dog enter FEO in like 2 trials. 

Jeannie
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Rena Bonem

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2014, 06:08:54 PM »
The person who entered FEO at our trial in February is a person with a 12 year old dog who does well at 8 inches, but she does not want the dog to jump 12 inches.  Interestingly, the other folks who asked were ones where the handler did not want the pressure of trying to qualify because their dogs were responding to the handler's stress.  They did not enter once I explained the rules did not allow a leash.  There are some long-backed dogs that still use the breed exemption.  Bassets are the ones I see most commonly. 
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atom/andy

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2014, 06:25:43 PM »
Greetings

I would like to have an opportunity for the reason Jackie Brasen mention, plus for the training purposes,
due to always training in the gym 40 by 40 feet. While working alone and in such a small space training for Chances is great chore
So we never enter Chances.

With kindest regards
Andy&Atom

Vicki Storrs

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2014, 06:27:22 PM »
Jack (Scottie) is not a long backed dog, simply short legged and deep bodied.  He is about 11 inches tall.  He has always run skilled 4 inches and I have never measured him precisely because if he is a bit over (which would have put himin the 8" skilled class) he had a breed exemption which would have resulted in him still jumping 4. I would not have competed with him jumping 8 inches.
Vicki Storrs

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2014, 06:36:30 PM »
I have not entered FEO but have been holding it the back of my mind as an option. I have a 12 year old who is still running great at 12 inches. However, this will not always be the case. I have been running her at 8 inches in another venue for several months because I could so why not? For several reasons - time being highest on the list - I do not plan to compete much in the other venue and so will be focusing on NADAC because it is the best venue for my younger dog. At some point 12 inches may be higher than I wish to jump my senior dog at. If she is still having fun and running safely, I have thought about the option to run her FEO in NADAC at a lower jump height rather than working in running her in the other venue. I do recognize that there are non-jumping classes in NADAC and maintain those as options too. I don't know when it will be right to retire her but do like to have as many options as possible to keep her playing this game she loves as long as she wants to and can do so.

Sandy Taylor
Sacramento

ricbonner

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2014, 07:34:01 PM »
My first dog trained a long time before competing and had trouble at first dealing with the excitement of a trial setting.  I now have a young dog I'm entering in a few runs at each trial.  I don't really expect Q's.  In fact, we don't necessarily run the set course.  My intention is to build his experience with a trial setting - queuing up calmly, start line set up, stay and release, ignoring horse poo and ring crew, focusing on commands and collecting to leave.  For this dog, when he has the skill to Q a full course I also want him to have enough ring experience and focus to allow him to apply that skill in a trial setting.  There are so many more strengths they need besides just doing obstacles.  If there was an FEO option available at a lesser rate, I would use it for this type of training/experience runs.

I think it would help also to know that there is no chance for a Q, then the handler can fully commit to the training/reinforcement plan.  We've all seen start line stays break and the handler continues because they don't want to give up on the Q.  But if the Q is out from the start, I think the handler has an easier time reinforcing the desired behavior.