Author Topic: Question for exhibitors  (Read 2522 times)

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2014, 07:57:27 PM »
I have to agree that the use of FEO so that there is no pressure at all about the "Q" is a good option.

Another one was brought up privately and that is using FEO for those handlers that do not want to enter the ring "on time" and get E'd for not entering.  If they entered FEO then they could work on bringing their dog into the ring after the previous dog is leashed and leaving.

Many handlers have reactive dogs and if the judge is alert and the handler holds back and doesn't enter when the gate steward asks them to enter, then they should receive an "E" for training.  But there are some handlers that would rather have an "E" then to allow their dog to become reactive from seeing the previous dog finishing the course.  By running FEO, the gate steward isn't irritated, the judge isn't irritated and no one thinks that the handler is trying "to get away with bending the rules"........ they could hold back until the previous dog leaves the ring and have their FEO status up front and not stress about the elimination they would receive by waiting until the previous dog leaves the ring before entering.  So that also would be a good place for an FEO entry, to train that reactive dog to relax a bit and not over stimulate them.

Sharon
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Maureen deHaan

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2014, 03:11:24 AM »
I can see both sides - but IMO FEO is for fun matches not for trials - But..... there are very few fun matches around these days - and... if I were trialing my seasoned dog and wanted to do some training with my newbie dog - I would have to make a decision on which event to go to if a trial and a fun match were on the same weekend -I would do the trial -

Love the idea of getting to jump a way lower height for FEO - then an old dog or a younger dog (obviously 18mo or older) or a recovering could come and play with the rest of its family

The above are the reasons I would do FEO or allow it at my trials - which I generally don't

Personally I think that even if someone is doing FEO they should be held to the same prices and same rules regarding entering and exiting the ring as everyone else - I think that will end up creating a longer trial day and a situation of "well, if they can go in the ring late , why can't I ?" and people will start pushing that line  - if someone's dog is that ill behaved that they can't control it's behavior then I really don't think it is appropriate for it to be at trials - or at least in / near the ring for training

I also don't think its fair to anyone's dog or run to be used as a training tool for a reactive dog - whether it be at the start / finish or around the trial grounds - I have a reactive dog so I am not speaking out of turn here -  I taught her to be cool and *I* took responsibility for making her successful traveling in and out of the ring and in the trial area - *I* was the diligent one - *I* controlled her and was on the ball about her behavior :) and never used other people's dog's or their time in the ring as training for my dog - *I* didn't allow her to look at or react to another dog in her area - I was proactive in keeping her focused on me and not the other dogs - never had an issue and trialed with her for about 12 years or so

 I just don't think that's fair NOR do I think it is safe. and I think it makes OTHER people nervous when they have to run before or after reactive dog -

I pay a lot of money to be at trials and I work often throughout the day and I for one am uncomfortable with other people using my dog or my tent / RV space as a training tool - upsetting my dogs with its reactivity even if its from the other side of the ring or while they practice walking said reactive dog through the tenting area and using other people's safe space as a practice area - especially when I am not there b/c I am either running a dog or volunteering - we all know that dogs read energy and  reactive dog sends really unbalanced energy to other dogs and SOME dogs can't handle all that weirdness - nor should they be forced to - so therefore the reactive dog should not be near the ring at a minimum - IMO
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LeeAnne McAdam

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2014, 05:30:26 AM »
As the proud mother of one of those reactive dogs who took a long, circuitous route to get my boy into the ring in the beginning, it would have probably been nice to have the FEO option, but then again, maybe it would've emboldened me to move too quickly.  You certainly can't save us from ourselves...for people with impulse control, it's probably a nice option.
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mephalon

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2014, 05:50:14 AM »
I for one do not want to see the breed height exemptions go away.  I do use the breed height exemption for my Amstaff.   She is a 20" dog jumping 12" with the breed height exemption (8" now that she is a veteran dog).   The reason I love the exemption is she lands and turns much better at 12" rather than 16" skilled.  When I switched her to 12" you could see how much happier and better we started running.  In fact seeing this is what caused me to drop her height to the lowest possible in other venues too.   Yes now that she is a 9 she would jump 12" anyway but the breed height exemption allowed me to jump her at 12 years before she turned 9.

Please don't get rid of the breed exemptions- we do have people in our area with non-long backed dogs (amstaffs, staffybulls etc) who use the exemption. 

Mary
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2014, 09:33:19 AM »
Good input!

Sharon

I can see both sides - but IMO FEO is for fun matches not for trials - But..... there are very few fun matches around these days - and... if I were trialing my seasoned dog and wanted to do some training with my newbie dog - I would have to make a decision on which event to go to if a trial and a fun match were on the same weekend -I would do the trial -

Love the idea of getting to jump a way lower height for FEO - then an old dog or a younger dog (obviously 18mo or older) or a recovering could come and play with the rest of its family

The above are the reasons I would do FEO or allow it at my trials - which I generally don't

Personally I think that even if someone is doing FEO they should be held to the same prices and same rules regarding entering and exiting the ring as everyone else - I think that will end up creating a longer trial day and a situation of "well, if they can go in the ring late , why can't I ?" and people will start pushing that line  - if someone's dog is that ill behaved that they can't control it's behavior then I really don't think it is appropriate for it to be at trials - or at least in / near the ring for training

I also don't think its fair to anyone's dog or run to be used as a training tool for a reactive dog - whether it be at the start / finish or around the trial grounds - I have a reactive dog so I am not speaking out of turn here -  I taught her to be cool and *I* took responsibility for making her successful traveling in and out of the ring and in the trial area - *I* was the diligent one - *I* controlled her and was on the ball about her behavior :) and never used other people's dog's or their time in the ring as training for my dog - *I* didn't allow her to look at or react to another dog in her area - I was proactive in keeping her focused on me and not the other dogs - never had an issue and trialed with her for about 12 years or so

 I just don't think that's fair NOR do I think it is safe. and I think it makes OTHER people nervous when they have to run before or after reactive dog -

I pay a lot of money to be at trials and I work often throughout the day and I for one am uncomfortable with other people using my dog or my tent / RV space as a training tool - upsetting my dogs with its reactivity even if its from the other side of the ring or while they practice walking said reactive dog through the tenting area and using other people's safe space as a practice area - especially when I am not there b/c I am either running a dog or volunteering - we all know that dogs read energy and  reactive dog sends really unbalanced energy to other dogs and SOME dogs can't handle all that weirdness - nor should they be forced to - so therefore the reactive dog should not be near the ring at a minimum - IMO
Sharon
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Jeff Lyons

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2014, 09:41:54 AM »
I have often wondered about the use of FEO in the non-jumping classes. 

I understand the use of FEO for someone who wants to do classes like Regular at a jump height they are not eligible for.   I know a handler whose dog was getting back into trial form after rehab.  The dog would measure to jump 20P or 16S.  She wanted to jump the dog at 12 (the dog was not 7 yet - so no Vet height break).  So she used FEO for the jumping classes.  She ran the non-jumping classes in her height group, and ran for score.  I did clear it with the NADAC office ahead of time whether a handler entering FEO had to enter ALL classes FEO; I was told that she could enter some classes FEO, some not.

I agree that if a handler who wants to hold back from entering the ring enters FEO for that very reason.  It would also help if the judge was alerted to the FEO status of any dogs in the class prior to the class.   
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2014, 10:32:42 AM »
I have often wondered about the use of FEO in the non-jumping classes. 

I understand the use of FEO for someone who wants to do classes like Regular at a jump height they are not eligible for.   I know a handler whose dog was getting back into trial form after rehab.  The dog would measure to jump 20P or 16S.  She wanted to jump the dog at 12 (the dog was not 7 yet - so no Vet height break).  So she used FEO for the jumping classes.  She ran the non-jumping classes in her height group, and ran for score.  I did clear it with the NADAC office ahead of time whether a handler entering FEO had to enter ALL classes FEO; I was told that she could enter some classes FEO, some not.

I agree that if a handler who wants to hold back from entering the ring enters FEO for that very reason.  It would also help if the judge was alerted to the FEO status of any dogs in the class prior to the class.

So true, Jeff.  I don't think there is point to FEO in non-jumping classes and would wonder why they want to use it other than to relieve stress from the powerful "Q"!

Sharon
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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2014, 11:03:51 AM »
I have used FEO when my niece wanted to run my dog.  She was awesome in the backyard with her, but in a trial setting it was different.  I entered her in FEO in an event I hadn't planned on running that day as her first event so she wouldn't have to worry too much about getting the course right or worry about the judge watching her.  She could just go out and have fun with it.   After that, the nerves settled down and she ran her regular the rest of the day.
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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2014, 11:28:50 AM »
I would absolutely use FEO if we had the option of carrying a toy into the ring with us as they allow in UKI. I would also like to leave a collar on my dog and block all exits if needed (I already have taken advantage of blocking the exits for an automatic E, for the record). For me, being able to take a toy into the ring would be the #1 draw. I have driven 3 hours to attend fun matches with my dogs just to try to get the green beans in the ring. I can't do that on a regular basis (and even those fun matches are few and far between), so trials end up becoming my training grounds. Unfortunately everyone I trial with is then subjected to what comes with a green bean in the ring -- and with a Klee Kai, there can be a lot of issues that you just don't see in training and are only there at trials. So.....

Yeah, can you tell I trialed the new dog this weekend? I pretty much assume every run with her is FEO right now and don't care a lick about a Q. If FEO was an option, I'd likely enter it because then at least people would know I'm not delusional and know that I know she still has a lot of work to do.
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2014, 11:38:24 AM »
I would absolutely use FEO if we had the option of carrying a toy into the ring with us as they allow in UKI. I would also like to leave a collar on my dog and block all exits if needed (I already have taken advantage of blocking the exits for an automatic E, for the record). For me, being able to take a toy into the ring would be the #1 draw. I have driven 3 hours to attend fun matches with my dogs just to try to get the green beans in the ring. I can't do that on a regular basis (and even those fun matches are few and far between), so trials end up becoming my training grounds. Unfortunately everyone I trial with is then subjected to what comes with a green bean in the ring -- and with a Klee Kai, there can be a lot of issues that you just don't see in training and are only there at trials. So.....

Yeah, can you tell I trialed the new dog this weekend? I pretty much assume every run with her is FEO right now and don't care a lick about a Q. If FEO was an option, I'd likely enter it because then at least people would know I'm not delusional and know that I know she still has a lot of work to do.

I understand where you are coming from, but no, NADAC will never allow toys to be used in the ring or allow a dog to turn with a collar on.

Sharon
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Lin Battaglia

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2014, 01:23:23 PM »
Many good points about FEO, however as someone who hosts trails I don't see the need for FEO anymore. I can't even recall when we last had an FEO entry. NADAC is so kind to our dogs in what is offered with non-jumping classes for rehabing or running older dogs. I don't believe FEO was ever intended for new dogs that might not be mentally/ready fit to run yet. And there's a big selcetion of classes to replace an FEO run now. Someone also mentioned the cost of an FEO run should perhaps be less, I disagree; while the judge is not judging it they still have to watch for saftey reasons. Plus it takes time in the ring, it is listed in the catolog and the judge is paid for it regardless of the FEO-NQ. Just my two cents. A Fun Match is a good option for the dogs not ready to run in a trial yet.

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2014, 04:43:01 PM »
Is an FEO run charged by the judge since he isn't judging it and there is no record or time, etc. on the books?  I am not saying it should/shouldn't be, I am just curious.
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2014, 05:27:12 PM »
Is an FEO run charged by the judge since he isn't judging it and there is no record or time, etc. on the books?  I am not saying it should/shouldn't be, I am just curious.

Yes, the fees are still paid.  The judge doesn't leave, they just don't make calls.  But they can still ask the team to leave if the judge feels that they should not be in the ring either for out of control or soundness.

Sharon
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Kim Annis

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2014, 04:13:05 AM »
I did a few FEO runs with my old girl so she could have fun at 8" in jumpers...she was a 20+ dog. She hated hoops, never liked tunnelers, and I was no longer allowing her to do contacts. So when I was trialing my younger dog, because of the FEO option, my old girl could still come out and play in the ring with me. I appreciate the FEO option. I know few people use it, but I don't see the harm in leaving it as an option. I paid full price for our FEO runs and would happily do so again in the future.
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Ben Philibert

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Re: Question for exhibitors
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2014, 12:47:00 PM »
Ok, I have a reason that hasn't been mentioned...... I realize this only applies to a very limited audience, but there have been times we have considered having my wife run a dog FEO at a trial I am judging.  It hasn't actually happened yet, but there are a few assignments I have coming up where it again might be of interest to us.

I believe this is something that would be allowed under the current FEO option.

Thanks,

Ben
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