Author Topic: dogs slipping in tunnels  (Read 4142 times)

Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2014, 10:47:39 AM »
So I went out and did a quick training session with 2 tunnels without bags.   I used Tandem (4 year old) Rev and JP7 (20 months).

https://www.youtube.com/my_videos?o=U

straight tunnels all 3 were fine.

Once I curved the tunnel, tt seemed as though there entrances were ‘worse’ and caused more movement than their exits.

Rev did great and hardly moved the tunnels…and he is the one that banked and fell in the CATS jumpers course.

JP moved the tunnels the most.   He really moved the entrances so that the tunnels moved a lot.  his exits were good.

Next time i do this, I will point the video camera towards the entrances so I can see what is going on.

So Sharon-- am I am the right track here???  Do I just keep these type exercises until they learn not to bank??

Thanks so much for your input !  I really appreciate it as do my dogs !!!!

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Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2014, 11:11:51 AM »
Wrong video link;  here is the correct one:   

Comments anyone??
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TheQuestKnight

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2014, 11:24:13 AM »
Hi..............

Interesting discussion.................

ALL of our dogs, with the exception of Gael, have "banked" tunnels, especially curved ones....................and WITHOUT "encouragement for more speed" from us....................they just LOVED tunnels..................and needed no more motivation than that!!!!!!!!!!!  We would have LOVED IT if they took their paw off of the accelerator a bit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe that there are also many other considerations beyond pure speed causing slips and falls......................

The following is not a complete list; but will perhaps provide "food for thought"...............

Hairy paw pads
Toe nail length
Humidity
Ground moisture being transferred into the tunnel via the dogs' paws
Surface material in the tunnels (sand, sawdust, dirt, etc.)
Interior tunnel "health", such as the presence of any mold, mildew or algae (all are very slippery)
Distance between the tunnel's support "rings"
Uneven/irregular ring surfaces

ALL of our tunnel-driven kids are and have been "semi-suicidal" and TOTALLY OVER THE TOP when it came to HAVING FUN doing something that they enjoyed!!!!!!!!!!!

........................and sometimes that resulted in injuries.........................and that kind of "came with the territory" given their personalities...................

It would have been TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE and UNFORGIVEABLE on our part to push our already reckless, speed demons for more speed.............................yet, unfortunately, we have seen it done all to often........................and for what??????????????  A "time" that is 20 seconds under SCT instead of 15??????????  What's the prize????????????  A different color placement ribbon?????????????  I guess that I just don't understand...........................

Up to now, all of our agility kids have been Border Collies.........................our "new addition" is a Long-haired miniature dachshund, Chow chow, Siberian husky, Rottweiler & German shepherd dog mix..........................

Neither I nor my wife "push for speed"...........................OH!.................well, we did encourage Gael to pick up the pace every now and then when she got into her "royal highness, princess trot" <G>....................because it's been said soooooooooooooooooooooo often in sports........................one can NOT train or teach speed.........................it's either "there" or it "isn't"...............................the only thing that trainers/coaches can successfully do is INHIBIT the speed that is there naturally.......................

Our driven dogs would have tried to run through a brick wall if we had asked them to try..................that's just how devoted they were.......................and how strong their "work ethic" was.....................but what would have been the point??????????

If you ask, I won't be able to tell you exactly how we did this; but our dogs have learned to "trust their paws".....................in other words, to adapt and ADJUST to the footing that they feel........................and because we've NEVER paid attention to "yards per second" or stuff like that, we were always happy to "take" all that our kids "gave" us.....................knowing that it was their best effort under the circumstances.....................

OK............I know...................some folks need to know how to train..........................some need seek the "Holy Grail" of perfectly safe equipment........................and like the "Holy Grail", it doesn't exist.................and I'm talking a "philosophical approach" that gives the dog the ability to adjust to conditions as the dog sees fit..........................

Our dogs KNOW and UNDERSTAND all that we'd LIKE them to do for us..........................we need to ACKNOWLEDGE that.............................and TRUST that our dogs will do their best to that end.

It's an old song................some of you may still remember Bobby McFerrin.................

"Don't worry........................be happy......................."

Hugs & wags,

Al, Barb, Gael, Pelli and The Gr8 K8 (Caitlin), aka Castle Camelot       
Castle Camelot: Al, Barb, Dred, Gael & Pellinore . . . and from The Bridge Grill & Pub,  Kali, Flurry, Promise, Chico, Romulus, Trix and Tony.

Jeannie Biggers

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2014, 01:30:46 PM »
First and foremost I will admit that this is one of those things that pushes my buttons.  I hate to see dogs "crash" tunnels and I hate to see handlers/clubs just load tunnels down with bags because their dog crashes thru them.

I have rubber tunnels that I use for my trials.  One because they do have a better grip for the dogs and two they hold their "shape" better.  BUT I have a couple old NTIs and some of the Schamberger (I cant remember the name or how to spell it) tunnels (they are not rubber).  I use the NTI and other type at home for classes and practice (they are lighter to carry around).  I also have all these different types because I want my dogs to understand that not every tunnel will be rubber or have that grip.  I also NEVER double bag at home.  Yes sometimes Saige will hit one harder then I like and I will have to walk out and "fix" it but I would rather her know that a tunnel could potentially come out from under her and she needs to pay attention and not just fling herself thru them.  She rarely moves a tunnel that is double bagged but yes on occasion she will ... I don't like it so I make sure she sees a single bagged tunnel at home if she starts being reckless.

My young pup saw a tunnel for the first time when she was I think 7 or 8 months old.  I tried really hard to not do much training with a tunnel.... for one I am lazy so bringing out hoops, gates, and barrels was much easier than hauling out a tunnel or two.  She is so far pretty thoughtful about tunnels (she has only been to one trial :) ) but if she starts to treat them disrespectful I will for sure just single bag or if I have to I will put her thru one that is not bagged  :-\

I have said for years that I would love to see some dogs hit about 3 unbagged tunnels to get their attention.  Yes I strongly believe dogs need to take responsibility for performing the obstacles but we need to make sure they know how to perform them safely.

I honestly don't think this will ever be a subject that "goes" away... I have been fighting this fight for years.  I have just decided that I cant win with others but I sure can do what I can to keep my dogs as safe as possible, keep my trials as safe as possible for exhibitors dogs, and do what I can when judging like not allowing triple bagged tunnels and set as well as I can set a tunnel.

JMHO in my little minority corner :(

BTW Lisa I thought all your dogs but the one looked fine in the tunnel in those videos.  The one was a young dog that just needs to understand that a tunnel could potentially move out from under him if he isn't "careful" :)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 01:50:50 PM by Jeannie Biggers »
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2014, 03:31:20 PM »
So I went out and did a quick training session with 2 tunnels without bags.   I used Tandem (4 year old) Rev and JP7 (20 months).

straight tunnels all 3 were fine.

Once I curved the tunnel, tt seemed as though there entrances were ‘worse’ and caused more movement than their exits.

Rev did great and hardly moved the tunnels…and he is the one that banked and fell in the CATS jumpers course.

JP moved the tunnels the most.   He really moved the entrances so that the tunnels moved a lot.  his exits were good.

Next time i do this, I will point the video camera towards the entrances so I can see what is going on.

So Sharon-- am I am the right track here???  Do I just keep these type exercises until they learn not to bank??

Thanks so much for your input !  I really appreciate it as do my dogs !!!!

Lisa I am impressed with your observations and your desire to have a fast, sound dog!!  Nice sons of Tandem!

Sharon
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Jeannie Biggers

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2014, 04:41:52 PM »
Lisa that is awesome!!  Loved watching it all in slo mo!!  Here is my opinion for what it is worth.... I think since Tandem is older and has had more years of learning to use tunnels to bank he had a harder time entering the tunnels because he was trying to bank and couldnt so it was really moving the tunnel.  The young boys looked like they were really trying to to not move the tunnel.  Is JP7 a bit bigger and stronger then Rev??  It appears so and it looks like he was trying to learn to bank but couldnt and Rev was just running thru the tunnels.... I think I got the names right!!!

Very cool to watch... thanks for sharing  ;D
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Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2014, 05:39:53 PM »
Jeannie-- you got em right :)  JP is about 2 inches taller and at least 4 inches longer that Rev. he definitely is more powerful.

Sharon-- Sons of Synergy  and Trae:)  Tandem is the uncle !!

So should I keep doing exercises like this??   And they will learn not to bank???


Definitely won't be double bagging at home anymore....

THANKS !!!
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2014, 05:44:22 PM »

Sharon-- Sons of Synergy  and Trae:)  Tandem is the uncle !!

THANKS !!!

I knew that the moment I het send and meant to go back and correct that and got busy doing other stuff.  Thanks for keeping me straight!!

Sharon
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Diane Whitney

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2014, 08:17:04 PM »
I would like to add to this discussion a criticism of the type of tunnel that's constructed with a seam at each rib, and the seam allowance of stiff plastic sticks up all around the inside of the tunnel. Not only is this a difficult and uncomfortable surface for a dog to run on, and a trip hazard for smaller dogs, but the seam allowances create deep channels which trap dirt which then makes the inside of the tunnels slippery and continues to build up with every next dog. My little Sheltie recently fell three times in one trial where these tunnels are used. I wish it were required that the inside of a tunnel be smooth. We certainly wouldn't allow inch-high strips of plastic projecting from the dogwalk, a-frame, or arena footing.


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Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2014, 08:46:31 AM »
Has anyone else tried this??  I did another training session with no bags last week and video the entrances. (I am almost out of data so can't post til next month or I go to wifi).  My dogs still were rolling the tunnel.   Last weekend my dogs did not fall, but they did bank as tunnels needed to be fixed ...so ... I realize e I have only done this twice....and will try again next month when iget home and back to training......I wonder how long it will take for them to understand not to bank..
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2014, 06:32:02 PM »
Has anyone else tried this??  I did another training session with no bags last week and video the entrances. (I am almost out of data so can't post til next month or I go to wifi).  My dogs still were rolling the tunnel.   Last weekend my dogs did not fall, but they did bank as tunnels needed to be fixed ...so ... I realize e I have only done this twice....and will try again next month when iget home and back to training......I wonder how long it will take for them to understand not to bank..

Lisa, well done.  Just the fact that they didn't fall down in the last trial is awesome!

Now put 10 lb bags on the tunnels and do one or two training sessions.  So they know they are "bagged" but not immovable.

I applaud you for trying to keep your dogs safe!  All of my young dogs now learn without bags so the habit never gets started.  Fast and safe.

Sharon
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Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2014, 02:49:31 PM »
Thanks Sharon!!
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Marcy Matties

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2014, 05:31:16 PM »
I'm trying to picture what this looks like and why this step.  Are you putting 10 bags spaced out along a curved tunnel?  And why does putting that many bags along the tunnel "look" differently to them than the normal bags just at the ends and/or how/why do they react/run differently with it this way.  Just not grasping the point of this - though I absolutely know there is one - I'm just dense I guess  :)



Lisa, well done.  Just the fact that they didn't fall down in the last trial is awesome!

Now put 10 lb bags on the tunnels and do one or two training sessions.  So they know they are "bagged" but not immovable.

I applaud you for trying to keep your dogs safe!  All of my young dogs now learn without bags so the habit never gets started.  Fast and safe.

Sharon
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2014, 07:42:48 PM »
I'm trying to picture what this looks like and why this step.  Are you putting 10 bags spaced out along a curved tunnel?  And why does putting that many bags along the tunnel "look" differently to them than the normal bags just at the ends and/or how/why do they react/run differently with it this way.  Just not grasping the point of this - though I absolutely know there is one - I'm just dense I guess  :)


I never mentioned putting tunnel bags along the tunnel.  They would be put at the entrance and exit, just like normal.

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Rebecca Kriz

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Re: dogs slipping in tunnels
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2014, 08:47:18 PM »
She said 10 pound bags, not 10 bags.
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