Author Topic: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast  (Read 10418 times)

agilityjunkie

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2012, 03:55:53 PM »
VT runs are a good option, and I have a nice yard and plan to hold some VT runs for Hoopers this year, on a small scale. I have to be honest, uploading upwards of 65 videos to youtube scares me...a lot! Has another option for submitting VT runs been considered? Could clubs submit a disc for viewing runs on a larger scale?
Lora Del Page

DonovanZoo

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2012, 04:59:25 PM »
We don't have many indoor trials here in Arizona but from listening to spectator "chatter" I would venture to say that many folks would do an indoor trial to keep their dogs from running off.  I personally preach along the "It's a training issue" lines. I hope this doesn't open a whole different can of worms but I can see a large number of folks choosing inside over outside for that reason. The different types of fencing can be a hot topic around here.  Me, personally, I LOVE the DIRT in a barn, I would take that over grass any day. Our dirt trials here in AZ have disappeared.  I like "weather", any weather as long as it's safe, as a current desert dweller rain is always welcome.(Although from an equipment person perspective putting away nice clean equipment from an indoor trial must be nice)

Chrissy Donovan
Tucson


This thread raises a few questions...

DISCLAIMER: this not intended to be about venue bashing/defending but rather trying to look at improving entry numbers for outdoor agility trials.

Are there fewer outdoor trials being offered now?
Is the decline in entries only at outdoor trials?
Based on this thread's posts, weather concerns seem to be driving competitors indoors. Are there other concerns "pushing" exhibitors indoors?
Is this unique (outdoor trials entries declining) to NADAC or are there similar declines in other venues?
How do we get competitors back to outdoor trials?

Would love to get some thoughts on these questions if anyone has some insights to share...
Thanks y'all!
Chrissy Donovan
Tucson,AZ

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2012, 08:35:26 PM »
VT runs are a good option, and I have a nice yard and plan to hold some VT runs for Hoopers this year, on a small scale. I have to be honest, uploading upwards of 65 videos to youtube scares me...a lot! Has another option for submitting VT runs been considered? Could clubs submit a disc for viewing runs on a larger scale?

You will be excited to know that an entire "submission" program is being created by Stefan and Chris... it is totally awesome!!!  And very professional and easy to use!  It will be ready for beta testing soon and what a great job Stefan has done on it!!  WOW is the best word to describe it.

VT will be easy and amazing to enter your submissions.

Sharon
Sharon
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agilityjunkie

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2012, 07:24:50 AM »
Sharon, let me know when you are beta testing. I would be happy to help test with some VT runs from the Junkyard. The way I look at this is holding a few VT trials might make the money I need to hold a couple of really nice indoor trials. I wouldn't have to worry about taking a loss. They would balance each other out.
Lora Del Page

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2012, 10:03:16 AM »
Sharon, let me know when you are beta testing. I would be happy to help test with some VT runs from the Junkyard. The way I look at this is holding a few VT trials might make the money I need to hold a couple of really nice indoor trials. I wouldn't have to worry about taking a loss. They would balance each other out.

That is what many groups are finding out.   A smaller trial site, very friendly, no fees paid out unless a qualifying run happens and then PARTY and submit!  For clubs that do have to rent the air conditioned indoor facilities, then a few evenings of VT runs helps to raise the funds for "expensive" daytime trial.  And an evening BBQ is fun, even when the dogs NQ because they run to the smell of dinner cooking! 

Groups are basically charging $5 per run to furnish and maintain equipment and those great runs do cost an additional $5 to submit for a qualifying VT run.

Sharon
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mmo.teach

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2012, 11:31:57 AM »
We have moved our outdoor trials inside our training center with great footing. However, we continue to see a drop in our entries. We have had to make the painful decision to drop one of our trial dates. We were actually losing money.
We LOVE our Nadac and wish it would step back up in entries. We only wish to break even! Come play with us at High Octane in Doylestown, Pa!
Maureen Burke
Hatboro, Pa.
Maureen M. Burke

patenaudelm

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2012, 01:02:12 PM »
Having been a long time NADAC competitor (back when it was Gamblers in the early 2000's and combined with ASCA) I've seen the changes in NADAC (In my own opinion as everyone elses some are okay, some are not).   

Last weekend I did NADAC again with my border collie and my 13 year old all american who has two NATCHes.   My border collie had an absolutely FLAWLESS run in a very very difficult Touch and Go class.  I was extremely proud of her navigating this course, but much to my dismay she was one second over time.   True she doesn't know this, but if she cannot make time a NATCH or V-NATCH will NEVER happen.   In thinking back, maybe she could have made her turns a little tighter, probably two on two off extended her time, but am I willing to give up those contacts, heavens no.    I worked way too hard to have her get those contacts.   

With my all american, I've dropped her down to Novice just so she can play and enter her in the classes with as few jumps as possible (usually Regular and Chances) - she's healthy and sound, but why risk an injury when she loves the game and she can handle those 12" jumps with no problem.   In her Novice Chances she was the only one of about 20 dogs that actually Qualified.   How disheartening is it for Novice competitors (or any level for that matter) to want to play in NADAC if a) they cannot make time or b) if the courses are so difficult they don't stand a chance to qualify.   I know in my own mind, it's like flushing money down the toilet.    It's a shame, because the facility is awesome, the people are awesome and I usually volunteer to work every class I'm not running in just to help this group out.

I'm seriously thinking about how much I want to do NADAC in the future.    It's disheartening to watch newbies come in, have an awesome run and see they haven't qualified because they didn't make time and it's just as disheartening for us "old timers" to have absolutely gorgeous runs and again see we didn't make time with our younger dogs. 

It's a very tough decision I have to make because I do like NADAC, but simply am not going to continue to keep spending the money if a Q is not on the horizon never mind in sight.  Thank goodness it's some time before I have to actually make the decision.

Linda, NATCH and NATCH-2 Suzy, 2500 Lifetime points and Kaedence (who's just gotten into Elite)

TheQuestKnight

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2012, 02:27:42 PM »
It's disheartening to me to see the topic of NADAC times and being over time and not qualifying rear it's ugly head once more.  I've only been around NADAC since 2005; but NADAC times are more generous now than they have EVER been!!!

If anyone is choosing a venue based upon where they qualify the most, you have my sincere sympathy . . .

Dogs don't care . . . and most often don't know if the did something called "qualifying" or not . . .

Ten to fifteen bucks to see my dogs smiling at the end of their runs is worth it to me . . . I've been in agility for over 20 years and we don't need no stinkin' ribbons . . .

Newbies need to learn straight away that they have to EARN what they get . . . NOTHING is going to be handed to them . . . at least not in NADAC, IMHO . . .

I've NEVER wasted money at a NADAC trial by NQing . . . to the contrary, Qs waste money because I don't learn all that much about where me and my dogs have to improve . . .

It's all about perspective, I guess . . .

Al & Pellinore in Ohio 
Castle Camelot: Al, Barb, Dred, Gael & Pellinore . . . and from The Bridge Grill & Pub,  Kali, Flurry, Promise, Chico, Romulus, Trix and Tony.

dogrsqr

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2012, 03:55:31 PM »
I'm sure my response is not going to be popular, but..... I really don't think NADAC times are that elusive.  When I moved my 14 year old mixed breed back to Novice Tunnelers she didn't have an issue making time.  Let me also say that we have had two Border Collies who were not your typical "ball of fire" BCs. 

I find it frustrating that people seem to think that speed is not part of agility.  It is part of what makes a run awesome.  If my dog can't make tight turns or perform the weave poles or stay at the start line everyone sees that as a training issue.  Speed or lack thereof is also a training issue.  When I started my new dog in agility classes I refused to do sequences that were technical.  I wanted to first focus on speed, distance, motivation, fun and confidence.  In my opinion the technical stuff can wait. 

I think that if you do more NADAC your dog will speed up.  They just need some time to figure out that there isn't a turn after every other obstacle.

I guess from my perspective a trial is a test of your training.  If you don't qualify it shows you what you need to work on.  If you qualify all the time you have nothing to work on.  How boring!

Gina Pizzo

Shirley Wallace

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2012, 04:00:21 AM »
Thanks, Gina!!!  I'm going to use the last part of your statement as my new personal mantra!!!  It makes a LOT of sense!    :D
Shirley


"I guess from my perspective a trial is a test of your training.  If you don't qualify it shows you what you need to work on.  If you qualify all the time you have nothing to work on.  How boring!"

Gina Pizzo
Shirley Wallace

dmadrid

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2012, 08:42:31 AM »
Linda,

I definitely understand where you are coming from.  I have had so many of those lovely runs that are just a second (or less!) over time... for us, Jumpers is the worst...  It can be quite frustrating.  But, if you were only a second over time, I would think that a Q is definitely in your future!  Maybe not every time, but you and your girl *will* get there! 

I, too, think that NADAC times are doable... but we would be fooling ourselves if we said that NADAC times aren't tight and don't require a lot of speed, and efficient turns.  My Anja, for instance, is not a blazing fast dog, although she will move with some decent speed while on course.  But, in an Elite Tunnelers run, for instance, if she takes a turn too wide, or does a head check to see where I am, then we've lost our Q right there.  We are that much on the line.  We have enough success, though, that it isn't discouraging... but if it was every single run, every time, then, yes, it would be.

For newbies, though, I think the situation is very different, and we shouldn't be so quick to slam someone that might get discouraged if they never, or only rarely, get a Q.  As a new competitor, to continually fail to Q could indeed be quite discouraging.  Especially if it is consistently because of time.  Not everyone knows how to train for speed.  And even if you do know some tricks to train for speed, it can be *hard.*  Not every trick works for every dog... and even those that do take time.  You may be fighting a lot of training inertia to get that dog to change their speed.

People enter trials to test their dogs, yes, but also to prove that their dogs are ready to be tested.  They want to have some brags... and there is nothing wrong or pitiable with that.  If no one wanted that, we wouldn't have trials... we'd just be running in our back yards or our training clubs or whatever.  Let's not disparage people that have competitive goals... or those that chose to trial in a different venue because they can actually achieve something in that venue.  I can so easily imagine how sad I would have been, starting out as a new competitor, if *every* time I went to the line with Anja and had a lovely run, I later saw the results and realized we'd been too slow over and over and over again.  I'm lucky, and that didn't happen to me... but I've known people that have dogs that Q at the excellent level in AKC and struggle to make Novice NADAC time.  This is not unheard of.  And if they chose not to trial in NADAC, we shouldn't be so quick to judge or pity them.  Conversely, I've known some dogs that are true "NADAC dogs" and do wonderfully on fast, open courses where they can blast away, but have a hell of a time on a tight, technical Masters Jumpers course.  We don't pity those dogs and handlers for choosing a venue where they can have fun *and* be successful.  It should go both ways.

Best,
Danielle
Danielle

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2012, 10:25:30 AM »
[quote author=dmadrid link=topic=491.msg2489#msg2489

I've known people that have dogs that Q at the excellent level in AKC and struggle to make Novice NADAC time.  This is not unheard of.  And if they chose not to trial in NADAC, we shouldn't be so quick to judge or pity them.  Conversely, I've known some dogs that are true "NADAC dogs" and do wonderfully on fast, open courses where they can blast away, but have a hell of a time on a tight, technical Masters Jumpers course.  We don't pity those dogs and handlers for choosing a venue where they can have fun *and* be successful.  It should go both ways.

Best,
Danielle
[/quote]

Danielle,
  WOW, what a true statement!  I do hear a lot about how a dog comes from a different venue where they make time and are successful.  But if they don't make time, then it is a fault of NADAC's and their qualifying standards.  If a dog can make time in another venue, then there is something wrong with NADAC if they can't make time there.
   But, if a good NADAC dog goes to another venue and fails one of the more technical, collected sequences, then people almost laugh at the NADAC dog..... haha, the dog didn't make the 5 turns in a row..... bad NADAC dog... it is never a fault of the course design by the venue.... and no one feels pity for the NADAC dog..... but most of those same "laughers" with scream when their dog can't meet the qualifying criteria for NADAC..... and the NADAC people don't laugh and sneer at them.... in most cases they go to them and offer suggestions on how to improve the teams times and offer training tips....
    It is too bad that it doesn't go both ways in many cases.  But that is also one of the strong points of NADAC, the open minded, cheerful, helping atmosphere at NADAC... come, have fun, work hard and see the Q's happen!  And enjoy everyone there and cheer for all successes.  I know that isn't at ALL NADAC trials, but it is at most of them!

Sharon
Sharon
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dmadrid

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2012, 12:00:08 PM »
Sharon,

Agreed!  I have never met better agility people than NADAC agility people!  When I was first starting out, it meant so much to me to have elite level handlers come and talk to me about my runs (they watched them!) and about my dog.  It was so, so encouraging.  And such a wonderful environment to start trialing in! 

After tough excellent/masters runs, if things go well, one of my instructors here in TX is fond of saying "well, of course that went so well for us... we do NADAC!"  It may be slowly, but at least in TX we are trying to spread the word that NADAC dogs can do it all!  (or, conversely, that other dogs can do NADAC, too!)

Best,
Danielle
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 12:05:07 PM by dmadrid »
Danielle

DonovanZoo

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2012, 12:13:39 PM »
Hi Linda,

I truly am sorry you feel this way. I also have "issues" with some of the NADAC changes over the years but I still play because it is the best game out there.  I Love NADAC.  In the past few years MORE time has been given in some of the classes. 

In the eyes of competitors that love the other organizations, NADAC is already too easy.  The courses are nice and flowing(most of the time), wide open sometimes.  This is deceiving. In my mind the "NADAC Challenge" is to stay on the path, in the contact zone,& hitting those weave entrances with SPEED. The dog going as fast as they can & having FUN.  Not walking, not trotting, not even slowly loping.  It is one of the few "challenges" we have left. Some say their dogs can not run that fast.  I see many dogs that drag around the agility course go off and RUN for a ball.  They chase lizards, rabbits, butterflies with GREAT enthusiasm.  If someone's dog is able to blast around the backyard, tear around a field,run thru the woods or gallop around in a dog park with a bunch of dogs they should be able to make time in NADAC.

I've seen some dogs that have done a lot of AKC type agility actually have to LEARN how to run fast and do agility--NADAC style.  Maybe you could try building speed with very short sequences keeping it fun and short.  I know folks have been successful with this.

Good Luck and We Hope You Stick With It,
      Chrissy Donovan,Tucson
     



Having been a long time NADAC competitor (back when it was Gamblers in the early 2000's and combined with ASCA) I've seen the changes in NADAC (In my own opinion as everyone elses some are okay, some are not).   

Last weekend I did NADAC again with my border collie and my 13 year old all american who has two NATCHes.   My border collie had an absolutely FLAWLESS run in a very very difficult Touch and Go class.  I was extremely proud of her navigating this course, but much to my dismay she was one second over time.   True she doesn't know this, but if she cannot make time a NATCH or V-NATCH will NEVER happen.   In thinking back, maybe she could have made her turns a little tighter, probably two on two off extended her time, but am I willing to give up those contacts, heavens no.    I worked way too hard to have her get those contacts.   

With my all american, I've dropped her down to Novice just so she can play and enter her in the classes with as few jumps as possible (usually Regular and Chances) - she's healthy and sound, but why risk an injury when she loves the game and she can handle those 12" jumps with no problem.   In her Novice Chances she was the only one of about 20 dogs that actually Qualified.   How disheartening is it for Novice competitors (or any level for that matter) to want to play in NADAC if a) they cannot make time or b) if the courses are so difficult they don't stand a chance to qualify.   I know in my own mind, it's like flushing money down the toilet.    It's a shame, because the facility is awesome, the people are awesome and I usually volunteer to work every class I'm not running in just to help this group out.

I'm seriously thinking about how much I want to do NADAC in the future.    It's disheartening to watch newbies come in, have an awesome run and see they haven't qualified because they didn't make time and it's just as disheartening for us "old timers" to have absolutely gorgeous runs and again see we didn't make time with our younger dogs. 

It's a very tough decision I have to make because I do like NADAC, but simply am not going to continue to keep spending the money if a Q is not on the horizon never mind in sight.  Thank goodness it's some time before I have to actually make the decision.

Linda, NATCH and NATCH-2 Suzy, 2500 Lifetime points and Kaedence (who's just gotten into Elite)
Chrissy Donovan
Tucson,AZ

Maureen deHaan

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Re: Concern for NADAC agility in the Northeast
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2012, 12:13:57 PM »
[quote author=dmadrid link=topic=491.msg2489#msg2489

    It is too bad that it doesn't go both ways in many cases.  But that is also one of the strong points of NADAC, the open minded, cheerful, helping atmosphere at NADAC... come, have fun, work hard and see the Q's happen!  And enjoy everyone there and cheer for all successes.  I know that isn't at ALL NADAC trials, but it is at most of them!

Sharon

And THAT is one of the fundamental reasons I love NADAC so much! :-*
Maureen, Kiva & Zoe
Play~Bow
Kingston, NY

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