Author Topic: Are NADAC course times too fast?  (Read 4178 times)

Karen Echternacht

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2014, 08:08:35 PM »
Playing devils advocate here, perhaps the course might have been set to wide...?  Just another possibility I suppose.

Cheryl Gilbert

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2014, 08:08:37 PM »
Yikes   :)  ...please don't tighten the small dog times.  (no need to loosen but please don't tighten them)  Pretty please...   
I have NEVER been able to have a slight bobble...let alone restart weaves, and make time with a Q in elite weavers.  If there is even a slight bobble in elite Touch N Go, tunnelers or jumpers...we won't Q (nor would I expect to).  We've not made it to elite hoopers but I'm sure it would be the same thing.  If it is warm or if it is the second day of a trial or if I am not "up" we most likely won't Q.  That is all fine with me.  It is pretty common for my dog to be a bit over time even when perfectly clean.  I think this is all perfectly normal.  I have friends who run screaming fast small dogs...who get 100 plus runs ect...they make time more easily than I do but that relates to the differences between our breeds.  Benny will never get a 100 point run...but we still try as hard as my friend...just different set of possibilities.
On the other hand...if the stars align and my knee cooperates and I handle perfectly and we are in the groove...a Q is possible and that is a nice possibility. 
Just my 2 cents worth.....for whatever that is worth...  :-)
Cheryl Gilbert with
Emmy and Allie
Rachel, Becky, Twinkles, Honey, Lucky, Wally, Benny and Daisy waiting on the other side....

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2014, 08:54:36 PM »
I will not be changing the small dog times!

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KathieT

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2014, 05:19:47 PM »
Yay! Even though Red is done with with weavers.  If we missed an entrance, we could restart and Q but if she popped near the end, it wasn't happening.

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bhodges865

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2014, 05:46:56 PM »
A few trials ago I went to get my speed demo's ribbon and noticed it said NQ with time faults.  While I know there could be a possibility if we didn't have a smooth run but we did.  I then compared the course time with Elite and Novice and noticed something was off.  I brought it to the trial secretaries attention and she had entered the yardage wrong.  So it is a good idea to check this if you had a smooth, clean run with a fast dog.
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2014, 07:38:18 PM »
A few trials ago I went to get my speed demo's ribbon and noticed it said NQ with time faults.  While I know there could be a possibility if we didn't have a smooth run but we did.  I then compared the course time with Elite and Novice and noticed something was off.  I brought it to the trial secretaries attention and she had entered the yardage wrong.  So it is a good idea to check this if you had a smooth, clean run with a fast dog.

Good advice! 

Sharon
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Chris Chapman

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2014, 06:48:51 PM »
I do not know how fast other small dogs are, but if my small dog pops Elite Weavers at pole 10 and we have to start over, she does not make time.  If there are only 10-13 obstacles, and she is absolutely perfect, she does not make time.  She is not Border Collie fast, but she is perfect.  I do not believe the small dogs time needs to be made even shorter than it is.
Chris Chapman
(mom to tiny shelties Chelsea, Piper, and Darci )
Virginia Beach, VA

Dev Sperber, Jake, Lil, and Takoda

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2014, 12:03:26 PM »
Glad to hear Small Dog SCTs are staying the same.  My mini-dogs have no trouble making SCT when running on short grass, matting or turf but I can definitely see how much harder they have to work to plow through soft dirt or long, thick grass and it really affects their YPS. 

Dev, Jake and Lil
Dev Sperber, Jake, Lil and Takoda

Dev Sperber, Jake, Lil, and Takoda

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2014, 12:32:29 PM »
If Melanie's original post was referring to Mountain Dog Sports Oct trial, after Round 1 of Elite Jumpers on Saturday, I left the ring feeling good, having run it clean, with an efficient line, and what felt like "fast enough" to make time.  But we didn't make time.  I almost scratched Round 2 as a result of feeling "Poor me. My dog didn't make time."  HA HA in hind sight.   

Luckily, some very nice people convinced me to run Round 2 and I did everything possible to speed Lil up (something I never need to do with my dogs since switching to NADAC).  But as a result, Lil's time was 5 seconds faster and she made SCT.   At the time I had wondered if the yardage was measured correctly but since my dog was running much slower than usual (on all courses) due to a combination of environment and surface, I chalked it up to that. 

I do recall talking to several people about how well their dogs ran that course and how surprised they were that they were over SCT. I'd be curious to know if that particular Elite Jumpers course tends to produce slower YPS at other sites too... if stats like that are easily accessible.   

Just to be clear....No complaints from me about that course or anything else!

Dev, Jake and Lil
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 12:48:35 PM by Dev Sperber, Jake and Lil »
Dev Sperber, Jake, Lil and Takoda

Chris Chapman

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2014, 02:31:17 PM »
Sorry Sharon, I did not see your earlier post about "not changing small dog times."  Belay my last.
Chris Chapman
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garypaula

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2014, 09:59:45 AM »
I have had a relatively slow dog and a relatively fast dog and have enjoyed doing NADAC trials for several years with both of them and will continue in the future.  The one thing that could be getting in the way of run times is that the courses are not measured.  Depending on SOOO many factors, the course layout at that point in time may be longer or shorter than the official distance assigned to that course.  I'm not sure why NADAC doesn't measure the actual length of a course while people are walking.  Other venues do this and then you know the exact distance of the course the judge has set up.  Not a huge deal, but then the variability of distance would be taken out of the equation.  Just a thought, since this is the most common complaint I hear from other handlers at trials when they question an NQ because of time.  They wonder if the actual distance matched the official distance assigned to the course. 

TheQuestKnight

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2014, 11:08:58 AM »
NADAC judges are evaluated on all of their skills on an ongoing basis.  Distance between obstacles in NADAC is NEVER an issure............................judges are able to accurately pace distance more accurately than any mechanical measuring device!!!!!!!!!!!  This I know because I once considered applying to become a NADAC judge.......................had a mentor in place and everything............................and "learning how to pace distance" was one of the first things that I worked on..............................long and diligently!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...........................and the other factors that you mentioned are also accounted for...............................

........................and then a fall off of our roof, a couple a fractured vertabrae.......................and that "fairy tail" dream of mine was also fractured...........................

NO................................it is most unwise to debate yardages in NADAC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  IF a mechanical device was more accurate, Sharon would mandate it..............................and NADAC would require it...................................but that is simply NOT the case.............................

I LOVE NADAC because of the people, courses and the challenges that the course present.  Time is of NO consequence to me......................................as Einstein postulated, time is relative......................and for me, it's ALL ABOUT what I and my "kids" can accomplish relative to the prescribed time, which is fleeting.....................

As always, it's about "perspective"..................................and that which anyone places value upon...................

Live long & prosper.........................

Al, Pelli and R Gr8 K8

I have had a relatively slow dog and a relatively fast dog and have enjoyed doing NADAC trials for several years with both of them and will continue in the future.  The one thing that could be getting in the way of run times is that the courses are not measured.  Depending on SOOO many factors, the course layout at that point in time may be longer or shorter than the official distance assigned to that course.  I'm not sure why NADAC doesn't measure the actual length of a course while people are walking.  Other venues do this and then you know the exact distance of the course the judge has set up.  Not a huge deal, but then the variability of distance would be taken out of the equation.  Just a thought, since this is the most common complaint I hear from other handlers at trials when they question an NQ because of time.  They wonder if the actual distance matched the official distance assigned to the course.
Castle Camelot: Al, Barb, Dred, Gael & Pellinore . . . and from The Bridge Grill & Pub,  Kali, Flurry, Promise, Chico, Romulus, Trix and Tony.

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2014, 11:32:18 AM »
I have had a relatively slow dog and a relatively fast dog and have enjoyed doing NADAC trials for several years with both of them and will continue in the future.  The one thing that could be getting in the way of run times is that the courses are not measured.  Depending on SOOO many factors, the course layout at that point in time may be longer or shorter than the official distance assigned to that course.  I'm not sure why NADAC doesn't measure the actual length of a course while people are walking.  Other venues do this and then you know the exact distance of the course the judge has set up.  Not a huge deal, but then the variability of distance would be taken out of the equation.  Just a thought, since this is the most common complaint I hear from other handlers at trials when they question an NQ because of time.  They wonder if the actual distance matched the official distance assigned to the course.

Sorry, but NADAC judges probably measure their courses more accurately than any venue.  They don't need a wheel to do that.  They are taught to precisely measure the distance between obstacles.  They are the most precise judges that exist.  You would need to become a NADAC judge and go through the intense training process to fully respect the knowledge they have.  Just because handlers don't understand the process does not make it incorrect just from their lack of knowledge.  There is no "official distance" assigned to a course.  That yardage is determined by the official judge at the trial.

Sharon
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2014, 10:15:15 AM »
The really tough part about having qualifying criteria is that there will always be someone who doesn't meet the criteria.  If one decided that the times need to be increased it would make everyone happy who isn't quite meeting the criteria now.  But there would be awhile new group that would then not quite meet criteria.  That is the difficult part when speed is one of the factors for qualifying criteria.

I know that there are many competitors who do not compete in NADAC as much as they would like to because they just don't have the distances skills for Chances, so they will never earn a NATCH.  There are others who can't quite make Jumpers times because the criteria for the class says the dog must move at a "rapid pace" to make time.  Others won't make Weavers times, as their dogs do not weave fast.  Some large dogs don't like Tunnelers because they must duck to get into the tunnels and they don't like that.

I do understand that there are venues where speed is never a test.  Many handlers don't understand why they can qualify in one venue and not in the other venue.  Each venue has it's own qualifying criteria and what might be tested in one venue might only be tested at a minimal level in another venue.  One might excel in one venue and not meet qualifying criteria in another.

I also understand when a handler has a fun run with their dog and they are very proud of their dog and their time together in the ring.  If one finds that they didn't make time, then it is very disappointing to go from "feeling good" to hurt.  Many times that hurt causes one to become discouraged with the venue.  Handlers have the option of looking at themselves and their dog and trying to figure out how to get a bit tighter turn, how to get the dog to extend more in the sequences that are arcs or lines or how to get a sharper sprint off the start line, or they can focus on the shortcomings of the venue that causes a non-qualifying run.

I also see Basset Hounds who make time with a huge smile on their faces and Shih Tzus, Chihuahuas, Dachhunds, and every other small breed, large breed, and every mix in between.  Some will be successful and other won't.

But if a dog is mentally and physically sound, then getting more distance requires training, teaching a dog to move with greater forward impulsion is about training, the same for improving weaving techniques. 

There will always be dogs that can't make time because they have physical or mental restrictions such as fear of other dogs or people, or conformation that makes weaving difficult or jumping at a rapid pace more difficult.

It is the handler that is upset if their dog has issues that put them into a situation where they do not meet qualifying criteria.  The dog has no clue, they are doing exactly what their training has given them the ability to do within their physical and mental limitations.

We all choose where to focus our energy.  We can determine that our dog is performing at maximum of their mental and physical abilities and accept that and it is also highly possible that we can find areas where we can improve our handling or improve our dog's performance and change the percentage of qualifying runs to a more positive number!

Sharon
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LeeAnne McAdam

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Re: Are NADAC course times too fast?
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2014, 12:17:58 PM »
I have to agree; IMO either nadac times are too fast or the yardage (not being wheeled) is inaccurate.  :(
Super disheartening when a dog runs perfectly on a course (Elite) and misses time by .03 seconds!
Couldn't you at least round down?

Or...exciting to know you are that close to making Elite times?  I have a dog who doesn't always make time in Elite classes so I can relate to what you say, but I try to keep working on improving my handling and our training, and I find most of the time now if we don't make mistakes, we make time.  In some of the classes, if we have wide turns or a late cue from me, that's enough to push us over, but I try to celebrate what went well and make note of what we can work on to improve. 

Is it disappointing sometimes?  Maybe...but I balance that with the satisfaction I get from the times when we get it right and earn that Q.  We are talking Elite, after all, and it seems to me that that should mean something.  Just my two cents.
Lee Anne