Author Topic: A QUESTION FOR JUDGES ?  (Read 1902 times)

George A

  • *****
  • Posts: 13
A QUESTION FOR JUDGES ?
« on: October 12, 2015, 08:57:18 AM »
This is hypothetical--only because I didn't think of it until after the run.

Handler sets up dog at start line and takes lead out......  The dog breaks his stay and begins to move.  Handler does not move back toward dog but calls to dog to "wait".  Dog stops literally at the start line--a jump.  Dog has not broken the plane to begin the clock but is VERY close.  The dog WILL knock the bar if he begins his run from this position.

Now the question--If the handler does NOT move back toward the dog but, calls to the dog to "back up" and the dog does "back up" giving him room to begin the run without the handler moving back toward the dog.

Would this be faulted?

MSito

  • *****
  • Posts: 15
Re: A QUESTION FOR JUDGES ?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2015, 09:51:37 AM »
That was an interesting situation. Glad you brought that up George.  Melinda Sito

Chris Nelson

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2030
Re: A QUESTION FOR JUDGES ?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2015, 10:05:06 AM »
Wouldn't be a fault the first time.

If it happened multiple times then it would start to get suspicious :)

Ed Scharringhausen

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 271
  • Run As One!
    • Run As One Agility
Re: A QUESTION FOR JUDGES ?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2015, 12:44:04 PM »
Not a fault.  I might consider it training if I saw it repeatedly by the same handler(s).
Ed Scharringhausen

George A

  • *****
  • Posts: 13
Re: A QUESTION FOR JUDGES ?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2015, 12:56:23 PM »
For discussion purposes----

If this were to be considered training because it were used several times---how would that be different than those who place their dog on a sit stay back from the start line and then as the handler moves to their lead out position continually call back to their dog to "wait, wait, wait, etc" as the dog scoots closer and closer to the start line?  Is the dog only allowed to scoot forward?

Scott Casino

  • Judge
  • *****
  • Posts: 288
Re: A QUESTION FOR JUDGES ?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2015, 03:34:46 PM »
Training is the ring occurs when the handler repeats a course or obstacle performance to teach their dog a specific performance criteria, typically one that is different than what the dog is doing (or just did).

The first time the handler cues their dog back, most judges will probably give the handler the benefit of the doubt (and maybe have a discrete conversation with the handler afterwards). But when the handler cues the dog to re-adjust the dog’s starting position on multiple runs, it starts appearing to be a situation where the dog is not performing according to the handler's criteria and the handler is attempting to teach the dog those criteria.
Scott Casino
Chesapeake, VA

"If reason is priceless, there's no reason to pay for it."

Richard Wolfe

  • 2016 Online Seminar Group
  • *****
  • Posts: 498
  • The line is not your friend, do not hug the line!!
Re: A QUESTION FOR JUDGES ?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2015, 04:36:15 PM »
Thanks for the explanation, Judges.

It just occurred to me that (gotta brag a bit here) my Rumor, who was only in non-Champs, did not break the start-line once in 13 runs.  YAY!!  Thank you Sharon and others who helped on the seminar list.  (She mostly doesn't at trials anymore either but in front of Sharon after the help broke 11 in a row and mortified me!)

However, on one run as I led out, she stood up and I told her to sit and she did, without my having to move towards her to get that performance.  It's been a long and winding road, but she gets it now and I'm very proud!
Richard Wolfe
Rumor and Raven
Sparkle HOF and Rowdy, Gold Achievement Cup waiting at the Bridge

Sharon Nelson

  • Mother NADAC
  • **
  • Posts: 5856
Re: A QUESTION FOR JUDGES ?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2015, 04:51:04 AM »
For discussion purposes----

If this were to be considered training because it were used several times---how would that be different than those who place their dog on a sit stay back from the start line and then as the handler moves to their lead out position continually call back to their dog to "wait, wait, wait, etc" as the dog scoots closer and closer to the start line?  Is the dog only allowed to scoot forward?

It is the "backwards" that causes one to consider it training.  Just as a handler cannot take a step "back" to the dog, the dog also should not be moving "backwards" after a clear indication of a start has begun.  Once the handler has started their leadout, they must continue to move forward in the direction of the course to prepare for the run.

I wouldn't fault it the first time, but I would talk to the handler that having the dog moving in the opposite direction of the upcoming course path could be consider training.

Sharon
Sharon
In-Sync-Agility

mephalon

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 216
Re: A QUESTION FOR JUDGES ?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2015, 07:47:09 AM »
For discussion purposes----

If this were to be considered training because it were used several times---how would that be different than those who place their dog on a sit stay back from the start line and then as the handler moves to their lead out position continually call back to their dog to "wait, wait, wait, etc" as the dog scoots closer and closer to the start line?  Is the dog only allowed to scoot forward?

It is the "backwards" that causes one to consider it training.  Just as a handler cannot take a step "back" to the dog, the dog also should not be moving "backwards" after a clear indication of a start has begun.  Once the handler has started their leadout, they must continue to move forward in the direction of the course to prepare for the run.

I wouldn't fault it the first time, but I would talk to the handler that having the dog moving in the opposite direction of the upcoming course path could be consider training.

Sharon

So how is that different than a "moving wait" that I see handlers do to redirect back to the course path?    In my mind (which admittedly is flawed most of the time  ;)  both are changing the dogs path back into the direction of the course.    Wouldn't that also be training?    I personally don't have a moving wait but I see many handers use one especially in distance handling.   

Mary
Mary P.

Sharon Nelson

  • Mother NADAC
  • **
  • Posts: 5856
Re: A QUESTION FOR JUDGES ?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2015, 08:29:50 AM »
For discussion purposes----

If this were to be considered training because it were used several times---how would that be different than those who place their dog on a sit stay back from the start line and then as the handler moves to their lead out position continually call back to their dog to "wait, wait, wait, etc" as the dog scoots closer and closer to the start line?  Is the dog only allowed to scoot forward?

It is the "backwards" that causes one to consider it training.  Just as a handler cannot take a step "back" to the dog, the dog also should not be moving "backwards" after a clear indication of a start has begun.  Once the handler has started their leadout, they must continue to move forward in the direction of the course to prepare for the run.

I wouldn't fault it the first time, but I would talk to the handler that having the dog moving in the opposite direction of the upcoming course path could be consider training.

Sharon

So how is that different than a "moving wait" that I see handlers do to redirect back to the course path?    In my mind (which admittedly is flawed most of the time  ;)  both are changing the dogs path back into the direction of the course.    Wouldn't that also be training?    I personally don't have a moving wait but I see many handers use one especially in distance handling.   

Mary

Very different Mary.  We have been discussing a start line behavior, where the run has not begun and the handler is not doing a behavior to start the run, they are trying to keep the dog behind the start line area.  With a moving wait and redirect, the dog has started the run and the handler is trying to get the dog back onto the course correctly in the fastest method possible.  If they don't have a moving wait and redirect, then the handler must run across the ring and "show" the dog the path by physical presence.  A moving wait is a very fast way to get a dog back on track from a long distance away, which is a fast response to keep a dog running on a course.  It is not a start line training behavior where the dog has not yet begun their run.

Sharon
Sharon
In-Sync-Agility