Author Topic: bonus runs  (Read 9740 times)

Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2016, 05:57:07 AM »
As many of you may remember, I was not a proponent for the bonus line program because I felt like Sharon gave special ‘attention’ and ‘privileges’ to people who tried them.   So I would not try bonus… I have even stepped over the line because I did not want to get a bonus.    Boy I have come a long way ☺

Since the advent of starter stakes at champs, I started trying bonus’ to qualify for that class. Starter stakes at champs is the perfect class for me… not extreme distances like silver and superstakes,  but I am still rewarded for having good distance. I have always loved distance and all my dogs..including my motivationally challenged dogs have /had  good distance.  In fact, when I checked over my points, I have 8 dogs (3 deceased dogs) that have bonus qualifying runs.   Even Cuba- my motivationally challenged Aussie- has a bonus in jumpers!

I have thoroughly enjoyed running and training for more distance.   Currently, I have 3 dogs that I will try bonus’ runs when if I feel I have the skills tested in that class.     I know this is entirely up to me… and I don’t want special privileges because I run multiple dogs or I run my own trials.     I inquired about separating my dogs for bonus runs so that I have time to warm my dogs up.    I do not mind running my dogs back to back for the bonus runs since I am not really running ☺ , but I need time to warm my dogs up properly.       It is very important for injury prevention to warm dogs up, so I can argue since NADAC concentrates on safety, this is a safety issue for my dogs ☺  Running at the end of the class will give me time to warm up my dogs.  I am not asking for this so that I can gain an advantage by watching or running my other dogs in the class.   Honestly, this does NOT matter.   Either I have the skills for that course or I don’t.    Watching someone else use a ‘back’ when I don’t have that skill is not going to help me whatsoever!  I honestly do not think that I will gain any competitive advantage by running last.
Sharon has stated many times that running agility is about you and your dog competing against the course…not other people.   So what does it matter if we run last?

This may work out better for everyone!  We all walk at the same time giving people time to decide if they want to try the bonus or not.      For those that want to run the bonus, they get their extra minutes to walk at the end of the walk through ( don’t need the box for walk through as long as we can see it on paper).  This gives everyone else time to go get their dogs and warm them up!   It actually is a WIN WIN for everyone!!!

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Cathie Cage

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2016, 06:28:32 AM »
Going last I think would be very helpful also for everyone. As you know bonus people walk for 2 minutes, I don't stay out after that because I can't see my path anyway with everyone walking. I go get my dogs and when the walk through is done we run. The problem I have is most people come off of the course and huddle around the gate moving dogs talking very loud and even yelling for the next dogs and I am on the course ready to go, with all this commotion going on right behind me I can't hear myself. I LOVE it when the box is on other side of ring away from the gate. So by letting bonus people go last it will give us time to warm dogs up and mentally get ready.
Cathie Cage

Alanna Leach

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2016, 06:53:10 AM »
Let's not base this on firstly, allowing bonus line people extra time to walk, then allowing  them to run last so they have time to warm up their dogs.  The folks that run first in a class (4" or 16"/20") have to deal with being 'first' if that is the running order for the day. 

Alanna


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Alanna Leach

Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2016, 07:21:04 AM »
I dont ever run my non-bonus lines back to back.  I will space them out throughout the class so I have time to warm them up. When I run the bonus, it is required to run all my dogs in short amount of time..either back to back or with a dog in between if someone else is doing the bonus..which is not always the case.    So for me, it absolutely is about warming up my dogs.   

If I run first even without a bonus, I only have to warmup ONE dog.  I certainly have time for this.

I know at my trials,  my exhibitors would be grateful for extra time to warm their dogs up before running .  The time the bonus people would walk AFTER the normal walkthrough would be positively received at my trials. 

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Kyle

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2016, 09:01:57 AM »
Interesting...just the *idea* of splitting the Bonus runs into first *and* last. Just doesn't feel right to me. Locally, we have a handler who *often* runs *at least 3* dogs on a Bonus course. We try to stick at least one dog in between so he has a moment to breathe between runs, but sometimes there's not enough of us. So, he gets someone to hold a dog or two for him so they are ready to run back to back if necessary. We all know the situation and even if it takes a minute or so longer for him to change dogs, everyone at the trial is quite understanding and patient about it.

You're lucky if you get to see the course on paper ahead of time - in our area they don't post the courses, so we don't know what the course is until it's set. And if you're the kind of person who can actually put into action your plan after seeing it on paper - good! There's many of us who aren't that good at it. So if you can plan your run on paper ahead of time, do the 2 minute walk through and then go warm up your Bonus dogs while everyone else is walking, why wouldn't that work for you? Or maybe I just don't know how long your warm up takes per dog...???

Alanna's made a good point about the first 4" or 20" dogs that have to run when there's no Bonus. Those folks have to figure out how to get their dogs warmed up too!

I can see Cathie's issue with the noise - especially if the trial is indoors - but you could always just tell the judge it's just too noisy for you to start. They'll fix that problem ASAP!  ;D Interestingly enough, around here it gets reeeeeally quiet when the Bonus dogs run. Our local folks LOVE to watch the Bonus dogs and each of us gets cheered afterwards - even when it's a big mess....gotta love 'em! Maybe there's just a difference in how the Bonus dogs are considered from place to place....????

-Kyle
Kyle
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Kyle

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2016, 09:29:17 AM »

If the bonus handlers run last, then the lines are not put down until the end.

Sharon

That would NOT be a happy thing for some of us. If we don't get the opportunity to actually "try out" the spot from where we have to handle ahead of time, for some folks it wouldn't give them a good enough idea if the Bonus was possible for them. Actually being in the box (or behind the line) and finding it's limitations for the different sequences can be kind of important.... OK, *really* important for some sequences!  ;D

So, if a club actually did this around here, I probably wouldn't be too happy about supporting them because it would be clear they don't truly support *all* Bonus handlers. In fact, I'd just find another club to support who does "get" what a Bonus is about.

-Kyle
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Jeannie Biggers

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2016, 09:40:02 AM »

If the bonus handlers run last, then the lines are not put down until the end.

Sharon

That would NOT be a happy thing for some of us. If we don't get the opportunity to actually "try out" the spot from where we have to handle ahead of time, for some folks it wouldn't give them a good enough idea if the Bonus was possible for them. Actually being in the box (or behind the line) and finding it's limitations for the different sequences can be kind of important.... OK, *really* important for some sequences!  ;D

So, if a club actually did this around here, I probably wouldn't be too happy about supporting them because it would be clear they don't truly support *all* Bonus handlers. In fact, I'd just find another club to support who does "get" what a Bonus is about.

-Kyle

Kyle

This is the way Champs is now.  When you go out to walk you have a map that gives you the lines but there are NO lines on the ground while walking.  You look at the map, figure out which line is yours (depending on level) and walk your course.  Then hand your map back in.

It really didnt seem to bother anyone.  Pretty straight forward.... and we are supposed to be good at everything right? ;)

When Sharon put that bonus dogs run first I was an "ugh" person... now after doing it so much it doesnt bother me.  We get the two minutes to walk by ourselves then another 5-7 minutes before the entire walk thru is over. 

I guess if you have multiple dogs you may need to find a helper for warmup or just choose what you can do that is right by your dog... if not enough time then choose a dog to do the bonus with and who not too.

I have not done a ton of bonus attempts with Chili but have done enough that it didnt seem to be a huge problem getting both her and Saige ready to go and warmed up.

Just my thoughts...............
Jeannie Biggers
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Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2016, 09:57:05 AM »
"So, if a club actually did this around here, I probably wouldn't be too happy about supporting them because it would be clear they don't truly support *all* Bonus handlers. In fact, I'd just find another club to support who does "get" what a Bonus is about. "

WOW I really take offense to this statement.   To say that I or anyone else that supports bonus dogs going last ..including Cathie Cage who has 2 MODSQUADS with 2 different dogs and won the Silver Stakes Challenge Cup last year does not  "get" what "bonus' is about is so untrue and offensive.

 Stakes classes at champs,  you do not get to walk with a box down. We get a piece  a piece of paper with the lines on and have to figure it out ourselves !

So in reality, walking without the lines on the ground is a great practice for champs !!!

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Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2016, 10:02:11 AM »

Maybe Kyle is on to something.... let the clubs decide  if they want bonus' to go first or last!  If exhibitors choose not to attend these trials based on when bonus' go first, then then club can decide to change or not.

I think this is a great idea! Clubs that want to maintain status quo-- ROCK on..... clubs that want to try bonus' going last.. ROCK ON !   If bonus handlers dont like going last...they can choose different clubs. ROCK ON!   It is all good ..
NADAC is all about choices :)   





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Sharon Nelson

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2016, 10:50:55 AM »

Maybe Kyle is on to something.... let the clubs decide  if they want bonus' to go first or last!  If exhibitors choose not to attend these trials based on when bonus' go first, then then club can decide to change or not.

I think this is a great idea! Clubs that want to maintain status quo-- ROCK on..... clubs that want to try bonus' going last.. ROCK ON !   If bonus handlers dont like going last...they can choose different clubs. ROCK ON!   It is all good ..
NADAC is all about choices :)

Very true.  Clubs could choose.  Then we do get into "it has to be listed in the premium" before handlers enter the trial.

I think the biggest issue is allowing a club to have bonus dogs run "both" first and last.  I know of several other handlers that will be running 3 dogs in bonuses this year and many that run two dogs.  With the new 20 point area, there could be many more in Regular.

Having the lines down first if the bonus dogs run first works.  Having bonus dogs run last and not putting down the lines would work, just like at champs!  Having some dogs run early and some late does not work for consistency.

Good input handlers!  This makes people think!

Sharon
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Kyle

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2016, 11:26:02 AM »

Kyle

This is the way Champs is now.  When you go out to walk you have a map that gives you the lines but there are NO lines on the ground while walking.  You look at the map, figure out which line is yours (depending on level) and walk your course.  Then hand your map back in.

It really didnt seem to bother anyone.  Pretty straight forward.... and we are supposed to be good at everything right? ;)


Just my thoughts...............

Jeannie,

In my (not always so humble) opinion, Champs is a different species than our local trials. At Champs we accept the fact that that things will change, that things are different from a local trial. It's made clear to us in the premium. I may not have attended Champs last year, but I can visualize what you're saying about having a piece of paper to walk with. But let me ask you an honest question: Were those lines, or boxes, giving you more room to maneuver in than at a local trial? After watching some of the videos they sure appeared to be a lot bigger than our "normal" 6'-ish x 10'-ish box.  And, yes, at Champs I would have NO problem doing it this way! I agree with you that we're "supposed" to be good at "everything"....hahahaha!!!

Champs should not even enter this conversation. What we're talking about are the rules for what we can ALL *expect* at a local trial, and those rules should hold for all trials, everywhere. That's what makes them fair for all exhibitors. I should be able to know that a trial I enter in Arizona will be run by the same rules as one in Maine. That's what I'm saying...

Go red Aussies!!!  ;D
-Kyle
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Cathie Cage

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2016, 11:48:21 AM »
OK then it's all set!!! To make it fair for everyone all bonuses go last!!! lol
Cathie Cage

Kyle

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2016, 11:50:51 AM »
"So, if a club actually did this around here, I probably wouldn't be too happy about supporting them because it would be clear they don't truly support *all* Bonus handlers. In fact, I'd just find another club to support who does "get" what a Bonus is about. "

WOW I really take offense to this statement.   To say that I or anyone else that supports bonus dogs going last ..including Cathie Cage who has 2 MODSQUADS with 2 different dogs and won the Silver Stakes Challenge Cup last year does not  "get" what "bonus' is about is so untrue and offensive.

 

Lisa,

Please feel free to take offense. I took great offense to your previous statement: "As many of you may remember, I was not a proponent for the bonus line program because I felt like Sharon gave special ‘attention’ and ‘privileges’ to people who tried them.   So I would not try bonus… I have even stepped over the line because I did not want to get a bonus.    Boy I have come a long way ☺"

Those of us who were actively supporting the Bonus program while you were saying we were getting "special attention" or "privileges" were quite offended by your comments - because you weren't even trying Bonuses at the time. And for you to honestly say that you *threw* runs in order to not get a Bonus, that is a slap in the face to *any* of us who do support the program, whether we try the Bonuses or not.

Giving yourself a little pat on the back for changing your mind.... Good for you. I'm happy you now (hopefully) see the Bonus program as we have always seen it. Not as having special privileges but as just another way to play the game of agility.

-Kyle
Kyle
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Kyle

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2016, 12:11:54 PM »

Maybe Kyle is on to something.... let the clubs decide  if they want bonus' to go first or last!  If exhibitors choose not to attend these trials based on when bonus' go first, then then club can decide to change or not.

I think this is a great idea! Clubs that want to maintain status quo-- ROCK on..... clubs that want to try bonus' going last.. ROCK ON !   If bonus handlers dont like going last...they can choose different clubs. ROCK ON!   It is all good ..
NADAC is all about choices :)

Let's be clear on this: I never said I supported running the Bonus dogs last, because I don't.

I have two trains of thought on this:

1.) It *could* be said that if Bonus dogs are last, that those handlers with multiple dogs, one or more of which may *not* be doing Bonuses, have an unfair advantage over those who only have one dog that is only running the Bonus. Running with a dog might give you a better idea of what idiosyncrasies may be encountered on the course and then you would have the advantage to apply that to your Bonus dog. The person who has no dogs to run without the Bonus would not have that advantage. It could be considered unfair advantage. Let's be quite clear that I am *not* including Champs in this - that is completely different.

2.) Having had many, many conversations with Sharon about the *premise* of the Bonus program and what it means to her, having the Bonuses run at the end of the class would not support her vision. Note: I totally support Sharon's vision of what the Bonus Program was designed for. It was designed for those with certain skills, certain training and those certain enough in those skills and training to go out there and do it NOW. Not hours later. Once again, I am not considering Champs in this - Champs is a different animal.

Personally, I don't think this *should* be a club's choice. I think it should be a *rule* that all clubs should follow. It should also follow the vision as the founder sees it. If all the clubs follow the same rules, we all know what to expect when we pay our entry fees. If you don't like what the founder has established, there's always someplace else to play....that's why we all have lots of options of where to play!

My Not So Humble Opinion,
Kyle
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Cathie Cage

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Re: bonus runs
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2016, 12:50:03 PM »
Kyle years ago when I started running bonuses with Casey we ran in our group height and the judge would be responsible for the judging of bonuses. No one had any issues with that because that was the so called rule back then. We also had boxes mostly placed in the middle start of the course. Then the boxes went away and it was a line across the back from start to finish. Then judges were not allowed to judge bonuses and they needed to be video and submitted to Nadac. Then the long lines went away and it was smaller boxes in different spots on the course. And all bonus dogs had to go first. Do you see where I am going with this? I having been doing bonuses for 12 years and there has always been changes, nothing has stayed the same. IMO running a non bonus line dog does not give me any advantage whatsoever or watching other non-bonus people run their dogs. It is totally a different skill set. Don't get me wrong I love doing bonuses and I have went along with all changes that has happened in my 12 years of doing bonuses. But my point is there will always be changes! I think to better the program for those new people wanting to try the new 20 pt bonuses they would have less pressure on them also not having to go first. I would love to run my 2 last it will give me more time to warm them up and for me more mental time.
Cathie Cage