Author Topic: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts  (Read 3182 times)

Jean Wilkins

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Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« on: April 26, 2016, 04:11:39 PM »
Well I have run the new BR and XHP scoring a couple of time now and I have to say what a game changer that new scoring makes.  Most of the reasons that I love the EGC classes when they started and with all the changes that have happened since the beginning this is my least favorite change and it changes why I loved BR and XHP so much.  I have been running the classes formally know as EGC and now just called Barrelers and XHoopers, since 2010.  I believe the first time I saw it was at Champs that year and had no clue what it was all about but my dogs LOVED it!!  What I loved about these classes was the attitude of “just running”, the “just go for it”, keep the dog on the path and DO NOT FIXED anything just go.  I liked that the steady- eddy dogs were able to achieve success by running and gaining confidence.  I liked that the older dogs have another class to work in and maybe not be the fastest but could still achieve a score.  I also liked these classes for the younger dog that needed to gain confidence on a course and run a class that mom didn’t fix it was just go go go.
 
I know that it took a while for some areas to start liking these classes.  I know I worked on a couple of my clubs to have these classes offered, it took a while but we did start offering them and it took a while for people to enter and run them but they did and what fun and enjoyment these handlers and dogs had.  Was understanding the scoring a little tricky for the newer people running these classes, maybe, for some but they just asked and understood it once explained.  Now with the scoring being the same as all the other NADAC classes, the changes to HOW you mentally run the BR and XHP courses has changed.  Yes I know that with it being a mental change then it falls on me but it is real life too.  I found myself this past weekend “fixing” things…..why…. I know better, we already NQ under the new scoring, but I had to fix it, that was silly on my part, why didn’t I just keep going like I have for ALL my other runs in these classes.  I am also seeing many dogs that would have had a score now NQ with any mistake, I liked that I could have a small error on my part (like missing an obstacle because we got off the path) and still get a score, maybe 5pts instead of 10 but still having a thrilling run.  I miss the steady-eddy dogs or the baby dogs that need some confidence appear to succeed but they didn’t see a tangible results.  I also think that this now becomes another class that times are tight and many dogs that are just steady will not make time with this new scoring.
 
I guess that bottom line is these classes are NOT as fun to me (and therefor my dogs) as they use to be.  I am not sure now much longer I will continue to run these classes, I am not finding them as fun and thrilling as I use too.  It actually surprises me how much this change is scoring has affected my thoughts about these classes.  Oh how I wish the old scoring was back on these classes.

Jean, Kopper, Zephyr & Wit who have been running these classes for a long time
Jean Wilkins
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Becky Woodruff

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2016, 05:18:02 PM »
Jean,
Why not continue to run these classes for the joy of running with your dogs?  I truly believe if you run with joy, your dogs will too and if you Q, it is the cherry on top.  You still get the cake and frosting.
My experience is to keep on keeping on and exhibitors and dogs get better and better.  Just remind yourself to keep working the course and don't fix stuff.
Give it a try before you give up.

Becky
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Jean Wilkins

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2016, 06:04:15 PM »
I didn't say I was giving up on these classes, just saying I liked the way it was before better.  I have been running these classes for a long time, Kopper has her All Around NATCH; Zephyr is very close to his and Wit will have all the point for his All Around NATCH long before he has his points for his NATCH and Versatility NATCH.  I didn't fix before when I ran but in just 2 weeks of running under the new scoring, I slipped into fix mode, didn't like that & will work to not fix but it was strange on how quick my mental game changed with the scoring change.

This was just an observation on what I have already noticed with the change in the scoring.

Jean
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2016, 11:18:07 PM »
I didn't say I was giving up on these classes, just saying I liked the way it was before better.  I have been running these classes for a long time, Kopper has her All Around NATCH; Zephyr is very close to his and Wit will have all the point for his All Around NATCH long before he has his points for his NATCH and Versatility NATCH.  I didn't fix before when I ran but in just 2 weeks of running under the new scoring, I slipped into fix mode, didn't like that & will work to not fix but it was strange on how quick my mental game changed with the scoring change.

This was just an observation on what I have already noticed with the change in the scoring.

Jean

Why change your way of running the class?  If you had FUN before then don't change just because of the option of a Q. 

Just my thoughts.

I have run and have no clue about the scoring.  I run for fun and it is still a blast!  If I Q, that is icing.  The fun is may more important than the Q.

Sharon
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Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2016, 04:24:50 AM »
I am a late comer to Xhoopers and Xbarrelers.  Over the past year, I have grown to really love running these classes.   I quit running in some other classes in order to save my dogs for Xhoopers and Barrelers.

I ran them the last 2 weekends using the new scoring and I have to agree with Jean.. I miss the old scoring.
At both of my trials, there were some teams that did not Q because of time but would have gotten 5 point Qs under the old system. (X hoopers since software was fixed for that.)
I had a few exhibitors tell me that they will probably quit running in these classes if they can't get 5 point Qs.     

From a personal perspective,  I miss being able to miss a hoop, or have an off course and still get a Q.   It really sucked for my dog to skim by a hoop now and not Q whereas old scoring, I would have still qualified  probably still with a 15 point Q.  I really miss those 15 point Qs too :)     

Is there any way you would consider allowing 5 point Qs in Xhoopers and Barrelers?




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mephalon

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2016, 05:35:24 AM »
I agree with Lisa- I miss the old scoring and I for one am someone who will probably stop entering X-Hoopers and X-Barrelers with the new scoring.  For me (stress ME) the new scoring makes the class less fun.  I liked being able to run the courses with my steady dog and still have possibility of the Q.

Now I have not changed the way I run my courses but for ME as the handler they are not as much fun when I know the likelihood of our team getting a Q is pretty low under the new scoring.  My dogs don't know the difference as I don't correct on any course. 

So if the dogs are still having fun you might ask why does the Q matter?   Well as I (and most people I would guess) have limited agility dollars I am more inclined to enter the classes where BOTH myself and the dogs will have fun.  While fun does not always equal Q (some of my best runs are NQs) I would like to at least have a greater possibility of Q than not- the new scoring takes that away for my teams.     

Mary


« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 05:45:38 AM by mephalon »
Mary P.

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2016, 06:20:54 AM »
Food for Thought by folks who understand the NADAC competitors better than I do (one trial a month from Sept through April with extensions this year due to fun-raisers):

If you liked the old scoring system for EGC and miss it for XBR and XHP, would you like that scoring system for all classes??

NADAC has had changes over the years.  Some were a part of the path to what we really enjoy.  Remember when you needed a chip for Gamblers as a part of a regular run and had to spend your chip before you knew what the gamble was?  The morph from Gamblers into Chances had a bump or 2 along the way.

So, go back to video and score any run with the EGC scoring.  How would you have done?  Set up an out of date VT course that you ran and rerun it with the EGC scoring format.  Did that change your "fun" quotient?

I could see trials being either EGC scoring or traditional scoring.  Competitors would make their wishes known really fast.  To be a true test, there might need to be (with handler permission) evaluation of the run showing faults under traditional scoring vs EGC type scoring.

Just a thought.
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dogrsqr

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2016, 08:34:09 AM »
I will definitely say I would NOT like the EGC scoring applied to all classes.  Basically you would be adding refusals which I despise and the thought of refusals would make me handle and run very differently. 

I disliked the thought of EGC when it first came out.  I thought it sounded silly.  I went to watch a few EGC trials and started to enter to work on my handling.  I really came to love Gaters and XChances. When those went away I thought I probably wouldn't enter Barrelers and XHoopers anymore as they were not as much fun in my opinion.  Well here we are almost a year later and I'm entering and having fun with both.  The last Barrelers we ran was super fun and I've hated barrelers in the past, especially at the beginning. 

I'll admit I'm the kind of person who rarely fixed anything on any course until someone pointed out to me that maybe since I had done a really good job of building drive and confidence by never letting my dog think she was wrong it was time to actually let her know that she was sometimes wrong.  Sometimes now I even "train" a sequence that went wrong for my own benefit.  Sometimes I still just go on like nothing happened.

When we had separate EGC trials I think it was nice to occasionally save a run with a 5 point Q because it was so easy for us to not get any points in EGC.  With Barrelers and XHoopers combined with the NADAC trials it doesn't seem like as big of a deal for me.  Honestly if I felt like I needed to Q to justify spending the money I would never enter a trial, cuz my payout just isn't that good!

Gina Pizzo

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2016, 09:45:28 AM »
I am a late comer to Xhoopers and Xbarrelers.  Over the past year, I have grown to really love running these classes.   I quit running in some other classes in order to save my dogs for Xhoopers and Barrelers.

I ran them the last 2 weekends using the new scoring and I have to agree with Jean.. I miss the old scoring.
At both of my trials, there were some teams that did not Q because of time but would have gotten 5 point Qs under the old system. (X hoopers since software was fixed for that.)
I had a few exhibitors tell me that they will probably quit running in these classes if they can't get 5 point Qs.     

From a personal perspective,  I miss being able to miss a hoop, or have an off course and still get a Q.   It really sucked for my dog to skim by a hoop now and not Q whereas old scoring, I would have still qualified  probably still with a 15 point Q.  I really miss those 15 point Qs too :)     

Is there any way you would consider allowing 5 point Qs in Xhoopers and Barrelers?

No, there will be no 5 point Q's.  The software changes are done for those classes and they will remain as is.  Part of the issue was seeing handler totally miss an obstacle and still get a 15 point Q, just because they were fast.  It caused a lot of issues from the non-BC competitors who could nicely run the whole course and not miss a thing and get 10 points, but a fast dog could miss obstacles and still get a 15 point run.  I have to agree, if a dog can't correctly run a course by the numbers, there shouldn't be a Q.  I liked the scoring when we started "in thought" but as the years went by, it became obvious that correctly running a course and getting extra points for it was not the original intent of the class.

Sharon
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Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2016, 03:49:07 PM »
Speaking of X Hoopers and Barrelers, are the requirements for the All Around NATCH going to change to be consistent with the other classes as well? 
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2016, 04:12:27 PM »
Speaking of X Hoopers and Barrelers, are the requirements for the All Around NATCH going to change to be consistent with the other classes as well?

I am sorry, but I don't understand the question.  You need a Versatility NATCH plus 230 X-Hoopers and 230 Barrelers, as has been posted, so I don't know what the question is.

Sharon
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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2016, 04:17:35 PM »
Sorry :)

My question is why do we need 230 points in X hoopers and Barrelers and not 130 like we do in all the other classes besides Regular?
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2016, 04:24:18 PM »
Sorry :)

My question is why do we need 230 points in X hoopers and Barrelers and not 130 like we do in all the other classes besides Regular?

Because it is supposed to be tougher to get the All Around.  Even the titles for Outstanding and Superior are higher in the "extreme" games and the Extreme NATCH was also based on 230. 

An All Around NATCH is way above and beyond the Versatility NATCH and will take more to earn.

Sharon
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Maureen deHaan

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2016, 07:48:26 AM »


Why change your way of running the class?  If you had FUN before then don't change just because of the option of a Q. 

Just my thoughts.

I have run and have no clue about the scoring.  I run for fun and it is still a blast!  If I Q, that is icing.  The fun is may more important than the Q.

Sharon


I too like the old way of scoring - I liked NOT FIXING a wrong course and I loved the option of a 15 point Q for my fast dog and a 5 point Q for my steady dog ... I will keep playing it but I do think that with wrong courses now an issue vs a fault I may rethink how I run the course (or not)

I just like the old way of scoring better - it made it a lot more fun and I loved the striving for that 15 pt Q - a real rush
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Barrelers and XHoopers thoughts
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2016, 10:53:54 AM »


Why change your way of running the class?  If you had FUN before then don't change just because of the option of a Q. 

Just my thoughts.

I have run and have no clue about the scoring.  I run for fun and it is still a blast!  If I Q, that is icing.  The fun is may more important than the Q.

Sharon


I too like the old way of scoring - I liked NOT FIXING a wrong course and I loved the option of a 15 point Q for my fast dog and a 5 point Q for my steady dog ... I will keep playing it but I do think that with wrong courses now an issue vs a fault I may rethink how I run the course (or not)

I just like the old way of scoring better - it made it a lot more fun and I loved the striving for that 15 pt Q - a real rush

To a point I agree.  I also agree with the large number that have an issue of "speed is more important than accuracy".  When we started we did not envision dogs missing obstacles and still getting a  15 point Q, which means they are 1 1/2 times better than a normal Q.  I don't really feel that totally missing obstacles should result in bonus points.  If we tighten the times down to stop the fast dogs from getting extra points when they miss something for two faults, then that starts to hurt everyone that entered.

I feel better that if a dog doesn't run the course as numbered, then they shouldn't have extra points earned for missing those obstacles, since running past something and not doing it is faster than following handlers cues to stay on course.

Sharon
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